Ok, So we know that fast travel should not be a thing in this game (no bell clicks or fast travel by clicking this post). We want people to run the world. But, they have hinted at certain classes being able to cast portals (I think i read something to that degree). I ask that in this game, instead of wizards having the ability to cast portals, give that to the summoners. Why? A couple different reasons. 1. Wizards are damage. Period. They are supposed to be "glass cannons" that wreck the opposition. So what purpose is a summoner? Our 2. Utility. I feel if summoners were the ones who got this ability, it would better level the playing field. You could even make this logical conclusion lore wise. Summoners "open portals" to another dimension to summon creatures. How could they not open a portal to step through?
Thoughts?
I think the porting abilities should remain with the wizard. If summoners in Pantheon are anything like EQ's magicians, they will have a lot of flexibility just by virtue of the different pet types they are capable of summoning. Porting was the wizards one, non-combat claim to fame. I think taking that from them would leave the class with very little desirability outside of raw damage output.
Although a Summoner (read: Mage) by nature... I find the weight of evidence seems to support a Summoner having this 'Summon Rift/Portal' type Magic and being the one to earn all those filthy taxi-fees.
PS
Anistosoles said: ... Wizards blow stuff up...
After *extensive* grouping with many, many Wizzies in EQ, I can say without doubt that actually :
'Wizzies go AFK'
Hope that sorts things out :)
Chiming in with no particular pull to either class. I have to say Summoners summoning things does make more sense. I will agree though that might take away a Wizards ability to do anything outside of damage. I will say though is that a bad thing? Shouldnt some classes be all about the DPS and others that arent all about the tanky, healy, CCish stuff have some mix of DPS and utility. They might not have the highest burst or highest sustained damage but they would have utility and support features to make up for it. This is one way to justify the question of "Why would I take the weaker DPS?". The answer is because their debuffs or party buffs make up for it. So yes I think it is perfectly fine as long as the class does what it is designed to do. Seperate DPS into 2 sub types: 1. Pure DPS, 2. DPS/Support. OK thats probably enough of my support classes are the best speech.
I've been a summoner in the EQ universe for almost 18 years...I have to agree that it does make sense for a summoner to have the ability to open portals. If we are yanking critters to our side, group members with COTH, creating gate clickies with our magic...opening ports seems logical.
Makes sense to me! I never did understand why wizzys ported...
I don't have a lot of skin in the game as far as this discussion goes either, as I don't play either class. But I always thought it was a little backwards that mages got the 'call of the hero' ability over wizards. I tend to think of mages as more of controllers of the elements, shaping the natural elements into objects or calling forth elemental spirits. Whereas wizards I've thought of more like the controllers of time and space.
While I agree a summoner summons people to them or the raid , I think letting wizards have porting does not take away from the summoner . Wizards can port but must be in the group while a summoner can summon anyone to them or to a raid .
Wizards should have dimentional doors . Thereby porting features Which can only port to certain areas that the wizard knows . While a summoner can summon anyone to them regardless where a summoner is . Keeps both classes with some sort of port or summons making both different .
Toredorm said:Ok, So we know that fast travel should not be a thing in this game (no bell clicks or fast travel by clicking this post). We want people to run the world. But, they have hinted at certain classes being able to cast portals (I think i read something to that degree). I ask that in this game, instead of wizards having the ability to cast portals, give that to the summoners. Why? A couple different reasons. 1. Wizards are damage. Period. They are supposed to be "glass cannons" that wreck the opposition. So what purpose is a summoner? Our 2. Utility. I feel if summoners were the ones who got this ability, it would better level the playing field. You could even make this logical conclusion lore wise. Summoners "open portals" to another dimension to summon creatures. How could they not open a portal to step through?
Thoughts?
I think wizards should be the portal masters. They are the arcane masters of the current world they live in and they can move across it with ease as they have accumulated the knowledge. Summoner are strictly a summoning of the arcane magic. They delve into summoning creatures from another plane of existence or the current one they live in. The power they use is for bringing and controlling a creature at their disposal...they do not manifest portals but the creatures themselves. Summoning a portal requires more energy and the spires in EQ were the power centers to help the wizards with this ability. Porters require more magical energy that Summoner do not have and do not know the art of arcane that creates the portal. Summoner should have the ability to Summon other players to their location.
Gate spells were personal use only as it requires minimal energy to cast and travel. When your moving large groups of people you will need the portal power and the wizards knowledge to do this.
There has to be rules and guidelines so there is no overlapping of to many abilities.
When we start giving abilities of other classes to other classes then it diminishes the importance of the class and the players uniqueness to the group inter-dependence play and balance. We also want socialization and foster group play so there has to be limitations and rules not to step on this type of play.
I feel that a summoner would be the class summoning food, portals, pets, and whatever else needs to be summoned. I think wizards with portals may be clinging on to EQ a little too much. I don't know enough about either class to make any real assumptions. We have yet to see.
Dalinsia said:There has to be rules and guidelines so there is no overlapping of to many abilities.
When we start giving abilities of other classes to other classes then it diminishes the importance of the class and the players uniqueness to the group inter-dependence play and balance. We also want socialization and foster group play so there has to be limitations and rules not to step on this type of play.
I also believe that the summoner should do the porting rather than the wizzie. or maybe wizzies can have a more limited porting function, something like the wizzie ports from eq, but instead of porting from anywhere to these wiz ruins you can only port from one ruin location to another.
Syntro said:Dalinsia said:There has to be rules and guidelines so there is no overlapping of to many abilities.
When we start giving abilities of other classes to other classes then it diminishes the importance of the class and the players uniqueness to the group inter-dependence play and balance. We also want socialization and foster group play so there has to be limitations and rules not to step on this type of play.
I get that EQ is clearly the skeleton of this game (we all agree that is a wise choice), but remember that no abilities have been outlined for these Pantheon classes yet. If the porting mechanic is implemented, it could be very possible that summoners could get the access to that ability and wizards don't - as others have pointed out, it makes sense to me too. That wouldn't be a role overlap or ability giving because they would be defining the Pantheon classes as such. I think the developers' "rules and guidelines" should be implicit to Pantheon and not purely based off what we experienced in EQ, otherwise we should just expect an EQ clone. They are already getting creative with mana colors, perception, and the evironment; it would be totally acceptable for them to rework a class structure as well - in fact, im counting on it! I'm excited to see VRs fresh perspective on these classes and how they interact with eachother and the environment. (love the show btw Dals, keep up the good work:) )
I have to strogly agree with Syntro. This is based off EQ, but it is its own game. I hope they change things up, for lore or for fun here and there. I appreciate that everyone loves that special class, but aside from a general theme, I am hoping the Devs cater more towards what makes sense and interdependent ROLE based classes in their design approach and not just base class design off of EQ tradition. There is already some evidence to support that is some ways and others not so much. Like Druid getting waht appears to be some "Geomancer" like abilities would favor a change from the traditional. While Shaman seems too traditional and potentially way too jack-of-all-trades which is not in favor of role based class interdependence. But I guess we will have to wait to see which direction they go: traditional vs new vs more pure role based.
Aside from that my read on this thread wasnt granting ports to everyone, it was specifically taking it away from one class and giving it to another. Thats not homoginization, its redirection.
When I think of wizards I think of Gandalf the Grey becoming Gandalf the White, being propelled through time and space and getting a vision of all that is, was and will be. Or Merlin, living in an existence that's counter to the normal flow of time. Wizards have a form of omniscience and a type of omnipresence, somehow knowing what is going on in any far-flung region of the world and somehow showing up anywhere at 'just the right time'. I think of portals as a rift in time and space, as opposed to a physical object that can be summoned or conjured, and therefor much more in the perview of the wizard's realm of knowledge.
My heart and soul belongs to the bard class (if ever it exists in P:RotF), so I have no dog in this hunt. But one thing I see common among many class suggestions is "for this game, give me more". Your logic may be sound, or faulty - again, I can't say. But if you wish to enhance your desired class by adding ports to it (and subtracting them from wizards), how would you offer balance? Lower summoners DPS while increasing wizard DPS even further? Add new magics to the wizard that only they can do (until someone covets those as well)? Think beyond the benefits that your desired class would gain, but how you would compensate / redress the loss to the class that used to fill the role you wish to re-assign.
I see no reason to lock classes into the exact roles that they had in XYZ previous game, but you must admit that EQ (and Vanguard) did a fairly good job of balancing out the goodies, at least at the beginning when this team was in charge.
Evoras said:Although a Summoner (read: Mage) by nature... I find the weight of evidence seems to support a Summoner having this 'Summon Rift/Portal' type Magic and being the one to earn all those filthy taxi-fees.
PS
Anistosoles said: ... Wizards blow stuff up...After *extensive* grouping with many, many Wizzies in EQ, I can say without doubt that actually :
'Wizzies go AFK'
Hope that sorts things out :)
I played a wizard in EQ and later on EQ 2 for a total of 15 years and I rarely ever went afk. The properly played wizard is the insurance policy that pulls the group out of a bad pull or a situation that has gone bad and has been the unsung hero in those situations for years.
A wizard is the only one who has the arcane ability to create portals. A summoner may summon a person to them in a limited and expensive fashon; however a summoner summons creatures to do his/her bidding.
Dalinsia said:
I think wizards should be the portal masters. They are the arcane masters of the current world they live in and they can move across it with ease as they have accumulated the knowledge. Summoner are strictly a summoning of the arcane magic. They delve into summoning creatures from another plane of existence or the current one they live in. The power they use is for bringing and controlling a creature at their disposal...they do not manifest portals but the creatures themselves. Summoning a portal requires more energy and the spires in EQ were the power centers to help the wizards with this ability. Porters require more magical energy that Summoner do not have and do not know the art of arcane that creates the portal. Summoner should have the ability to Summon other players to their location.
Gate spells were personal use only as it requires minimal energy to cast and travel. When your moving large groups of people you will need the portal power and the wizards knowledge to do this.There has to be rules and guidelines so there is no overlapping of to many abilities.
When we start giving abilities of other classes to other classes then it diminishes the importance of the class and the players uniqueness to the group inter-dependence play and balance. We also want socialization and foster group play so there has to be limitations and rules not to step on this type of play.
This is on point Dalinsia
Dalinsia said:Toredorm said:Ok, So we know that fast travel should not be a thing in this game (no bell clicks or fast travel by clicking this post). We want people to run the world. But, they have hinted at certain classes being able to cast portals (I think i read something to that degree). I ask that in this game, instead of wizards having the ability to cast portals, give that to the summoners. Why? A couple different reasons. 1. Wizards are damage. Period. They are supposed to be "glass cannons" that wreck the opposition. So what purpose is a summoner? Our 2. Utility. I feel if summoners were the ones who got this ability, it would better level the playing field. You could even make this logical conclusion lore wise. Summoners "open portals" to another dimension to summon creatures. How could they not open a portal to step through?
Thoughts?
I think wizards should be the portal masters. They are the arcane masters of the current world they live in and they can move across it with ease as they have accumulated the knowledge. Summoner are strictly a summoning of the arcane magic. They delve into summoning creatures from another plane of existence or the current one they live in. The power they use is for bringing and controlling a creature at their disposal...they do not manifest portals but the creatures themselves. Summoning a portal requires more energy and the spires in EQ were the power centers to help the wizards with this ability. Porters require more magical energy that Summoner do not have and do not know the art of arcane that creates the portal. Summoner should have the ability to Summon other players to their location.
Gate spells were personal use only as it requires minimal energy to cast and travel. When your moving large groups of people you will need the portal power and the wizards knowledge to do this.There has to be rules and guidelines so there is no overlapping of to many abilities.
When we start giving abilities of other classes to other classes then it diminishes the importance of the class and the players uniqueness to the group inter-dependence play and balance. We also want socialization and foster group play so there has to be limitations and rules not to step on this type of play.
I like the ideas. However I do not believe wizards should essentially be viewed as portal masters. Yes they have a deep understand of the arcane arts but so do summoners. In the little blurb we get, "The Summoner has developed a powerful arcane command to conjure sustenance, tools, barricades, weaponry, even fantastic creatures of incredible strength" So based on the lore summoners do in fact have the command of conjure. This then brings up the question, What defines Conjuring? Is it as complicated as creating a gate/portal in which things are summoned from? Or is it actually making things that don't exist, exist.
Now from my experience from animes, and past video games. When you summon something, it exists whether within you or from another some dimension. Therefore a summon gate is casted to allow the entity/energy in question to allow passage through. Therefore to me it would make the most sense for summoners to be able to open gates, a.k.a. portals, becuase that is the foundation of their arcane craft. The ability to open gates and draw other worldly things into their plane.
Wizards in my opinions should be able to manipulates gates as well, but not so much that they can open rifts in dimension but actually cause them to collapase or even disrupt inter-dimensional space-time. Wizards should be able to blink, teleport, but only themselves as they are a very lonely bunch when it comes to their studies and research. As a result they have only cared about safetly seeing themselves through. While Summoners have always focused on keeping the gate steady to allow entities/energy to go back and forth freely.
That's my two cents.
Kumu said:But if you wish to enhance your desired class by adding ports to it (and subtracting them from wizards), how would you offer balance? Lower summoners DPS while increasing wizard DPS even further? Add new magics to the wizard that only they can do (until someone covets those as well)? Think beyond the benefits that your desired class would gain, but how you would compensate / redress the loss to the class that used to fill the role you wish to re-assign.
I am new here and don't know much about any classes, but what I do know is good game development as opposed to bad game development.
First of all I would like to state that yes, we want the majority of people to have to travel the world. Running, etc. It makes the game seem much larger and does not trivialize things like distance, mob camps, zone walls etc.
However, having portals and summons is a good thing. But you don't want to do it so that they're easily accessible to everyone. I feel Everquest does this the best. Druids have Druid Rings, stonehenge like circles that they can port to. They aren't in every zone, but they help people to get around. Then you have Wizards who have Wizard spires that can port to different locations. The fact that they can only port to these ring/spires has created a system where they're the general pickup location. So if you want a port, you still have to travel to those locations, so there's still some travel involved.
Even if Pantheon didn't go with this kind of system, I don't see why ONLY ONE CLASS has to be able to be th eone to summon/port people. Why can't it be a bit more diverse with some sort of restriction, as we all agree that travel is a good thing?
As per:
From the question:
I can typical only play 2-4 hours per day. I am worried with no quick travel or lfg features I will spend my time lfg and traveling then be forced to abandon my group mid way though. Also necromancer class please.
The response from Brad was (19 days ago):
First, 2-4 hours is great -- you should in most cases be able to complete something in that time period that you can feel good about, where you get a real sense of accomplishment. As for travel and lfg, please allow me to clarify. First, there will, in addition to mounts, be ways to travel quickly over long distances. These will involve abilities limited to some of the classes. More detail at this time would be premature other than to say that you'll likely have to had explored on foot an area before another class can teleport you to it. LFG features... we will have LFG features galore. Please see my previous reply about how important it is for us to find groups, make real friends, and to keep our players together.
Evidently fast travel of some kind is currently a design goal, and I'm glad to hear that, myself. Having to travel there first on foot? Great. In a shared persistent (rather than unshared instances) world, fast travel makes sense to efficiently let people get together.
XX