If i am not mistaken look at the video and you see this Nexus thing. I think we will have that kind of travel ;) https://youtu.be/5oNVecHjiJI?t=5m45s
Quicktravel
In my opinion having a fast travel option with a long cooldown and a long bind timer would not be that detrimental.
E.G.
Pantheon Quicktravel
Cooldown: 24hrs
Bind Timer: 1 week
So, 24hrs cooldown before you can use it again and once you bind to a location you cannot change it for at least a week.
Fast Travel Spells
As for fast travel spells and looking at what has been said here I agree with Dalinsia in that Wizards use portals/gates. They open these and allow people to pass through to specific locations once they've mastered/memorised/become familiar with the destination. So they could open a gateway and let multiple people pass through. Could even have two wizards working together to open gates at each of their locations and allow for travel through while they maintain the spell, thereby not needing to memorise a specific location.
Summoners imo summon items, creatures, friends etc to them. They don't need to memorise the destination, as they are there.
Interesting topic.
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my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
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Why not seperate portals and summons. Wizards can open a portal to certain areas that the group can travel through, and the summoner can, once there, summon a group member who missed the portal from wherever they are to the summoner. I think it makes sense that the summoner can "summon" to the group, but I don't see why a wizard can't teleport the group. :)
First off, I have never played EQ or Vanguard. I hope that Pantheon tries to be its own game and doesn't depend on how things were necessarily done in those two games (as good as they might have been).
It does seem pretty clear what the developers are after here. No fast travel wherever you want to go by any class, obliterating the common world we are all supposed to be playing in. However, some form of fast travel will happen that is class-based and group-oriented and dependent on players using it having been there before.
I've seen several types of this class-based travel before in a game I played that also lacked general porting around the world fast travel. One was a dps/support class who could call another player to him, one at a time, but only if grouped up. One of the tank classes also had the ability to craft a token he could give or mail to another player that the receiving player could carry around and use (it gets consumed) to call that tank to his side, once grouped. Another ranger-type class could designate a small number of camps chosing amongst pre-selected locations (after having explored them by foot), and then carry one single player to that camp site, again, if grouped up. Yet another class could port to a similar number of pre-selected locations (like the ranger-style class), but could carry no one.
I'm not saying that any of these types of class-based, generally group-oriented versions of fast travel should necessarily should be replicated in Pantheon. I'm only saying that there are lots of options out there, and I hope Pantheon gives us several of them and maybe even surprises us.
Zorkon said: Naa this idea is not even right. I'm coming at this as a Wizard in EQ so I'll say bias, yes, but by experiance as well. The Lore angle has "some" merit, but misses a lot more. Using the EQ chars as example, the suggestion is to move teleport to the Summoner (Mage) one of the reasons was the Wizard is Pure Damage. In that reasoning the Mage Damage would need reduced SIGNIFICANTLY, I remember this from playing.. but I'm looking at Zam right now for facts... 52 mage Spell "Char" 974 damage. 52 Wiz "Frozen Harpoon" 680. That's just a sample... the Mage was every bit as much as a damage doer as the Wiz.. go compare more of the spells... then add in pet damage I'm not even counting. So the "Damage" angle is moot IMO. Then there is buffs... Mage has summoned items people want, need.. the equivalent of Buffs to make them selves usefull to others, Druids have Buffs, shaman have buffs, priests have buffs... Wiz had nothing.. BUT ports.. (and they even had to share that one Bennie with Druids) that's all we had.. besides a wimpy damage shield and Levitation. Honestly this is a real sore spot with me.. up until POP all a Wizard had was Ports... after pop, nothing. Now, They aren't making EQ here, but I believe the ports were given to the Wiz So they would have something besides JUST Damage to make them usefull. I would hope in Patheon all classes had something as well. If they take ports away from wizards (and reduce Mage Damage by 50%) then what would they give back to Wizards that would be usefull to others?
Interesting discussion - I don't really have skin in the game as I won't be rolling as a wizard but, one of the problems with EQ is all classes didn't offer some form of utility to the group (see warriors). I'm definitely not a fan of every class can do everything, but ports were one defining factor for wizards especially utility wise. I'd rather see more class defining features and utility added to classes than less.
If Wizards were stripped of ports, they would need to be given some form of utility that was equally necessary. Perhaps something like Arcane Channeling - that increases the spell damage, reduces casting time or fizzles for the group. Perhaps it could even be more powerful based off the weather - manastorms?
I liked the LOTRO's Hunter ability to "guide" his group, when all were close enough and ready, to a major location, or to his/her latest campfire. Joining in the porting would be limited to being allowed, by level, in the area the Hunter was going to. (Then they ruined it by adding quicktravel to all major locations to all characters).
Having various methods available would be fun, each different and unique and able to be used for different purposes.
Like Ranger able to bring a group with him somewhere, Summoner able to summon each person one at a time to him, *some caster, depending on how the classes are thought, like necromancer like class maybe* able to open a portal to a Nether region where a shorcut (but wrought with peril depending on the area going to) could be taken to where one was going (and this being the only one not limited by other stuff perhaps, but also dangerous), Wizards able to "lock onto" specific patterns (thinking R. E. Feists Kelewan world) at specific locations and port a group there.
Raidan said:Interesting discussion - I don't really have skin in the game as I won't be rolling as a wizard but, one of the problems with EQ is all classes didn't offer some form of utility to the group (see warriors). I'm definitely not a fan of every class can do everything, but ports were one defining factor for wizards especially utility wise. I'd rather see more class defining features and utility added to classes than less.
If Wizards were stripped of ports, they would need to be given some form of utility that was equally necessary. Perhaps something like Arcane Channeling - that increases the spell damage, reduces casting time or fizzles for the group. Perhaps it could even be more powerful based off the weather - manastorms?
Then you are encroaching an enchanters territory. Is it really that bad for a class to not offer utility and just offer brute damage? Utility classes should be just that. Utility with damaged base not up to par with true damage classes. The best setup for a game should make the optimal group a damage dealer, a tank, two utility, and a healer + fill. Stacking 3 or 4 damage dealers should actually lower teams consistant damage (due to losing buffs), but you should also have less damage with no true DPSer. Remember, Pantheon is trying to be a "Class defining" game. Where you need everyone. What do you need a summoner for if not for utility? Food and drink should have better crafted; armor and weapons will as well. So unless you make a conjuror T1 dps, you need to have more utility for them.
Jody said:I liked the LOTRO's Hunter ability to "guide" his group, when all were close enough and ready, to a major location, or to his/her latest campfire. Joining in the porting would be limited to being allowed, by level, in the area the Hunter was going to. (Then they ruined it by adding quicktravel to all major locations to all characters).
Having various methods available would be fun, each different and unique and able to be used for different purposes.
Like Ranger able to bring a group with him somewhere, Summoner able to summon each person one at a time to him, *some caster, depending on how the classes are thought, like necromancer like class maybe* able to open a portal to a Nether region where a shorcut (but wrought with peril depending on the area going to) could be taken to where one was going (and this being the only one not limited by other stuff perhaps, but also dangerous), Wizards able to "lock onto" specific patterns (thinking R. E. Feists Kelewan world) at specific locations and port a group there.
Ah yes, that was the game I was thinking of. The Hunter's taxiservice and the Captain's 'cappy call' added great group-oriented travel options. Agree that quicktravel ruined it to a large extent though.
@Zorkon
Well that was one of my original questions. Whats wrong with some classes just being all about the DPS? And I agree that summoner would need reduced damage to make up for all the support and utility, if ports went to them.
Again I dont really care from the stand point that I have no plans to play either. But I agree with Syntro again. Im not saying its wrong to use EQ or VG as a comparison but its not totally right either. New game. New Lore. Classes have the potential t be different. And my point of view would favor more pure roles and less homoginization than what apparently EQ or VG used. So I dont consider them the greatest reference for class design. Even my beloved FFXI did a horrible job of doing it (in my mind) the right way. Its not because any of the classes from either game are horrible in and of themselves. But that I expect more from interdependent role based group play. I include support and utility roles in this as well. I think we should be careful not to throw around support and utility to every class just because we can. Some classes should just be DPS or just Tank, etc. Im not saying classes cant do more than one thing, but I see way too much hybridization of roles in all these games.
I played a mage and a wizard to level cap. EQ offered the more group dependent classes better group oriented spells/buffs. In my opinion the mage was easier to solo, leveling up, than the wizard. As Kumu was pointing out...If the wizard's unique class ability is no longer unique, another unique ability would need to replace the one lost. (DPS is not a unique class ability.)
Toredorm said:Raidan said:Interesting discussion - I don't really have skin in the game as I won't be rolling as a wizard but, one of the problems with EQ is all classes didn't offer some form of utility to the group (see warriors). I'm definitely not a fan of every class can do everything, but ports were one defining factor for wizards especially utility wise. I'd rather see more class defining features and utility added to classes than less.
If Wizards were stripped of ports, they would need to be given some form of utility that was equally necessary. Perhaps something like Arcane Channeling - that increases the spell damage, reduces casting time or fizzles for the group. Perhaps it could even be more powerful based off the weather - manastorms?
Then you are encroaching an enchanters territory. Is it really that bad for a class to not offer utility and just offer brute damage? Utility classes should be just that. Utility with damaged base not up to par with true damage classes. The best setup for a game should make the optimal group a damage dealer, a tank, two utility, and a healer + fill. Stacking 3 or 4 damage dealers should actually lower teams consistant damage (due to losing buffs), but you should also have less damage with no true DPSer. Remember, Pantheon is trying to be a "Class defining" game. Where you need everyone. What do you need a summoner for if not for utility? Food and drink should have better crafted; armor and weapons will as well. So unless you make a conjuror T1 dps, you need to have more utility for them.
Except it could be argued you are encroaching on Wizard's territory. Whose to say that enchanters need the ability to improve magical abilities and not wizards? I get your point, but no class was sole DPS in EQ if that's what your using as reference - even rogues had lockpicking.
You want more reasons for group invites, not less.
Teleports can be treated in two separate flavors, one for the mage and one for the wizard. One brings things to them, the other sends things away.
With the wizard, it would have its series of Translocate spells. The Wizard would send be able to send groupmates* to either their bind point or to some number of fixed locations throughout the world (personally I'd limit it to cities).
The Mage would have its Convergance spells. The Mage would be able to bring groupmates* from wherever they are to the mage, though I would put restrictions in many areas of the world so you can't use a camped out mage to summon entire raids past content to boss mobs.
* I asterisked 'groupmates' because such power should be limited to those people who are in your group.
skitarg said:If i am not mistaken look at the video and you see this Nexus thing. I think we will have that kind of travel ;) https://youtu.be/5oNVecHjiJI?t=5m45s
That is a dev portal point so we can travel between zones from our secret dev hideout without having to run everywhere, as it would take a very long time lol, but this isn;t how players will be getting around, you folks will have to walk, run, ride, player port etc.
There may be a few similar ports for continent travel but that is still being worked on as we want travel to be meaningful, challenging but still fun and allow you to group up with friends or other players without wasting hours doing so.
Kilsin said: ... There may be a few similar ports for continent travel but that is still being worked on as we want travel to be meaningful, challenging but still fun and allow you to group up with friends or other players without wasting hours doing so.Sounds like the right attitude, thanks Kilsin.
Me and a group of friends play RPG's every other Saturday and in a hazardous world. Travelling from one place to another in that world can sometimes take up between half a session to 2 or more sessions as things happen and the PC's solve how to survive on their trip.
What I mean is that often the travelling in itself is an adventure and seems to be Pantheon looking to go that route more than just getting to a place instantly to enter an instance and be done.
If nothing else doing the quick travel options will make you miss all the things on the way there, like dungeons, ruins, deep forests with bandit hideaways, scarce animals with good trophies, some merchants stuck with their wagon in mud needing help, and so on.
ZeroGravitas said:First off, I have never played EQ or Vanguard. I hope that Pantheon tries to be its own game and doesn't depend on how things were necessarily done in those two games (as good as they might have been).
It does seem pretty clear what the developers are after here. No fast travel wherever you want to go by any class, obliterating the common world we are all supposed to be playing in. However, some form of fast travel will happen that is class-based and group-oriented and dependent on players using it having been there before.
I've seen several types of this class-based travel before in a game I played that also lacked general porting around the world fast travel. One was a dps/support class who could call another player to him, one at a time, but only if grouped up. One of the tank classes also had the ability to craft a token he could give or mail to another player that the receiving player could carry around and use (it gets consumed) to call that tank to his side, once grouped. Another ranger-type class could designate a small number of camps chosing amongst pre-selected locations (after having explored them by foot), and then carry one single player to that camp site, again, if grouped up. Yet another class could port to a similar number of pre-selected locations (like the ranger-style class), but could carry no one.
I'm not saying that any of these types of class-based, generally group-oriented versions of fast travel should necessarily should be replicated in Pantheon. I'm only saying that there are lots of options out there, and I hope Pantheon gives us several of them and maybe even surprises us.
We are most definitely making Pantheon its own game, many fans of Brad's older games are here expecting to see something just as great and we intend to deliver but it will not be a copy, clone or sequel to any of the previous games, even as much as some people want it to be, Pantheon is its own game and has some awesome new ideas that we feel will drive the game and the genre forward :)
I dont see anything wrong with Summoners, Wizards and even Druids have some sort of teleport spell as long as they don't overlap each other. What I mean is, perhaps Wizards can create portals to certain locations in each area that have a high Arcane aura, Summoners can only summon group members to dungeon areas, Druid's could only port their party members to a Druid ring located sporactly throughout the lands. Something to this effect would be ok as long as all the teleport spells can not be used to port people to the same location.
Toredorm said:Zorkon said: Naa this idea is not even right. I'm coming at this as a Wizard in EQ so I'll say bias, yes, but by experiance as well. The Lore angle has "some" merit, but misses a lot more. Using the EQ chars as example, the suggestion is to move teleport to the Summoner (Mage) one of the reasons was the Wizard is Pure Damage. In that reasoning the Mage Damage would need reduced SIGNIFICANTLY, I remember this from playing.. but I'm looking at Zam right now for facts... 52 mage Spell "Char" 974 damage. 52 Wiz "Frozen Harpoon" 680. That's just a sample... the Mage was every bit as much as a damage doer as the Wiz.. go compare more of the spells... then add in pet damage I'm not even counting. So the "Damage" angle is moot IMO. Then there is buffs... Mage has summoned items people want, need.. the equivalent of Buffs to make them selves usefull to others, Druids have Buffs, shaman have buffs, priests have buffs... Wiz had nothing.. BUT ports.. (and they even had to share that one Bennie with Druids) that's all we had.. besides a wimpy damage shield and Levitation. Honestly this is a real sore spot with me.. up until POP all a Wizard had was Ports... after pop, nothing. Now, They aren't making EQ here, but I believe the ports were given to the Wiz So they would have something besides JUST Damage to make them usefull. I would hope in Patheon all classes had something as well. If they take ports away from wizards (and reduce Mage Damage by 50%) then what would they give back to Wizards that would be usefull to others?
You just compared 2 random spells based on tooltip damage alone. Yes you got both at the same level, but that was not even close in a comparision front. Char was a mages main source of DPS and took 6 seconds to cast. Frozen Harpoon was an "cast with other things are down" and took 4 seconds. Want to guess which one did less DPS when divided? Summoners are supposed to have less DPS than wizards because they bring other things to the table. I just think this game should take a look at why we have "utility" on a primary DPS.
Yes your correct, While sitting here in my easy chair on my phone while watching Monday Night Raw I jumped on Zam Wizard Spells and scrolled to "about" mid level (there at level 100 or so these days aren't they?) as well as just before I stopped playing my Wizard (level 63 PoP expansion where they made ports a thing of the past and not worth the plat we spent on them) and found a level where both Wizard and Mage got a new DD spell...
Not real scientific I will agree with you.
Didn't need to be, because I'm speaking from experience.. that Wiz was my main, when they took the only thing Wiz had going for it I quit and started a Mage. The two partners I always ran with were a Druid and a Mage, the three of us out and about and the mage was always able to nearly if not completely match my damage.
The REAL damage Benefit for the Wiz came in the spell "Concussion" a Wizard could back to back Nukes followed by a concussion to reduce hate and then back to back nukes again keeping them below the Mages Agro if the Mage was to try to keep up. This worked great in a raid type situation... (since our slacker chicken Druid couldn't Tank worth beans!)
So my point is the phrases like, "Wiz is pure damage" "Glass Cannon" "Highest Damage in the game".... yea not such a big deal, If those were TRUE by a significant margen then maybe so, but it's more hype than anything else. What I experienced was, "no we need a Druid, they have Damage, Ports, Sow and Thorns!" on Raids and even groups they were not overly interested in a Wizard with damage and JUST ports. And you suggest removing the Port's as well? There would need to be some kind of trade off. IMHO
Now if you want to scientificly calc it out and come up with the EXACT Damage ratio between a Wiz and a Mage was precicely 1.34682:1 or something, then by all means feel free. it won't change my opinion at all but your welcome to, and I would be realyl courious what you came up with. For me... I'm going to go have a beer.
Disclaimer:
Devs got this, neither may get ports. I'm comparing EQ casters as a baseline only since most people on here are familiar with them.
I also have no vested interest as I never played a Wizard an don't intend to . My calling has always been enchanter .
But I would like to make a point why Wizards should teleport .
My point of view is the consistency and logics of magics .
1) Teleport spells belong to the category of magics which modifies space-time . The spell curves the space time so that the destination is brought near to the departure . Then the 2 points are brought in contact so that the teleported person is simultaneously at 2 places for a very short time . The curvature is then relaxed and the space time recovers "elastically" its former structure . The teleported person didn't actually travel or move himself - he was just transported by the readjusting space time like if he was in a boat transported by a river . Thoretically the energy used to curve the space time should be released when it recovers its stable structure so that the teleported person should be hit and stunned at arrival :)
2) The power/energy necessary to curve the space-time fabric is absolutely huge . Actually many orders of magnitude above the energy necessary to cast fire balls or ice shards . Also it is necessary that the caster exactly knows (has visited) where the exit point is . If he didn't know that, then he would be unable to curve the space time in exactly the right manner and the teleport spell would either fail or teleport to a wildly different location . One could also imagine that the casters installed energy devices at given points in space time and these devices have for role to weaken the rigidity of space time so that the spell is always applied to this weak point .
In other words, in this case reliable teleports can only happen to the places where the devices are installed .
3) It is commonly agreed that Wizards are masters of brute energy . Enchanters and mages heave learned how to use magics in sophisticated ways but they do not need (and generally do not wish) megatons of magical energy . Their skills are more how to intricately weave small amounts of power to produce desired results . The logics of this specialisation is that only Wizards are able to handle the massive amounts of power that are necessary to curve space time over large distances . Allowing a demon to cross from his dimension to our world is something completely different and doesn't involve curving space time in OUR world .
That's why I see it consistent and rationnal that it is only Wizards who are able to teleport over large distances .
To be complete, there is another sort of fast travel but which is not (or barely) magical . For instance rangers (perhaps druids too ?) are masters of paths . They know the land and the hidden paths so that they minimize the time necessary for a travel between 2 points . However their way is not and cannot be quasi instantaneous like a teleport spell even if it may reduce very significantly the time necessary to go from A to B .
Deadshade said:I also have no vested interest as I never played a Wizard an don't intend to . My calling has always been enchanter .
But I would like to make a point why Wizards should teleport .
My point of view is the consistency and logics of magics .
1) Teleport spells belong to the category of magics which modifies space-time . The spell curves the space time so that the destination is brought near to the departure . Then the 2 points are brought in contact so that the teleported person is simultaneously at 2 places for a very short time . The curvature is then relaxed and the space time recovers "elastically" its former structure . The teleported person didn't actually travel or move himself - he was just transported by the readjusting space time like if he was in a boat transported by a river . Thoretically the energy used to curve the space time should be released when it recovers its stable structure so that the teleported person should be hit and stunned at arrival :)
2) The power/energy necessary to curve the space-time fabric is absolutely huge . Actually many orders of magnitude above the energy necessary to cast fire balls or ice shards . Also it is necessary that the caster exactly knows (has visited) where the exit point is . If he didn't know that, then he would be unable to curve the space time in exactly the right manner and the teleport spell would either fail or teleport to a wildly different location . One could also imagine that the casters installed energy devices at given points in space time and these devices have for role to weaken the rigidity of space time so that the spell is always applied to this weak point .
In other words, in this case reliable teleports can only happen to the places where the devices are installed .
3) It is commonly agreed that Wizards are masters of brute energy . Enchanters and mages heave learned how to use magics in sophisticated ways but they do not need (and generally do not wish) megatons of magical energy . Their skills are more how to intricately weave small amounts of power to produce desired results . The logics of this specialisation is that only Wizards are able to handle the massive amounts of power that are necessary to curve space time over large distances . Allowing a demon to cross from his dimension to our world is something completely different and doesn't involve curving space time in OUR world .
That's why I see it consistent and rationnal that it is only Wizards who are able to teleport over large distances .
To be complete, there is another sort of fast travel but which is not (or barely) magical . For instance rangers (perhaps druids too ?) are masters of paths . They know the land and the hidden paths so that they minimize the time necessary for a travel between 2 points . However their way is not and cannot be quasi instantaneous like a teleport spell even if it may reduce very significantly the time necessary to go from A to B .
+1 yes vote on this wonderful post.
Thanks for posting that clarification Vjek, that is something that I had missed when reading the reddit :) I tried to quote you but my quoting skillz are lame.
In light of the topics on local economies, trading gameplay, and convenience in general, it occurred to me more poignantly than ever just how much fast travel of any kind, including player spells, damages so many aspects of a virtual world. Creating this illusion of another place and the suspension of ones disbelief is predicated on giving meaning to the entire world, its environments and inhabitants, rather than just hotspots like dungeons or cities. Its about making far off places and mysterious locales truly mysterious often by their geographic estrangement from the places commonly travelled. The easier they are to reach, the less special they become.
In the early years of EQ, finding a portal was the exception, not the norm. Until one became higher level and friends or guildmates with many kind wizards and druids, one never expected to be ported where they wanted to go. The world actually meant something and travel took time. This was all but lost over the years and portals have become expected on project1999.
Now this isn't to suggest that there ought not be any fast travel whatsoever. I just feel like the convenience of travel should come at a greater price if Terminus is to truly feel like a proper world.
My suggestion is twofold. First, as was done in other games, a player should have to visit any portal area and attune before traveling back to it via portal. Second, a portal should require a reagent, and it should not be cheap. Being ported around the world should not be something done frequently or flippantly. It also shouldn't be affordable for low levels.
I know this will go over like a lead balloon with our WoW players and convenience enthusiasts, but I just thought I'd throw that out there because its something that so many threads of thought continually lead me back to.