Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Alternative to DKP or loot council

    • 138 posts
    December 10, 2016 7:36 PM PST

    My desire to be flippant compels me to say, "and if none of those ideas work, we can always use /random 100!!!!"  JK :>)

    • 9115 posts
    December 11, 2016 1:51 AM PST

    RumorHasit said:

    My desire to be flippant compels me to say, "and if none of those ideas work, we can always use /random 100!!!!"  JK :>)

    Hahaha, Brad and I were using it in the stream, I think we went one a piece for wins :D

    • 2130 posts
    December 11, 2016 6:50 AM PST

    still don't see how a numbers based system that rewards everyone equally as long as they all meet the same standard of contribution could be considered unfair. The only logical explanation is feeling entitled to more loot than others for some arbitrary reason like "I've been here longer".

    • 36 posts
    January 15, 2017 11:56 AM PST

    90% of gamers are greedy in MMO's and it does not matter what system you implament you will always get that odd idiot who will do what they have to so they can get a said item. I have faith in the developers adding the nesassary tools which we will need to provide a fair system in the game. I would much rather prefer to see some control on the selling of items for silly coin and hope the system will allow for this and keep it fair for all. The early days in EQI saw people selling items for silly coin at times.

    As a crafter I made so many items for my guild and never asked for any coin or ingrediances to produce items but always did my best to provide for new and old gamers alike within our team, that for me was very rewarding but as soon as folks start getting greedy that's when it gets unpalatable for me. I have this saying make friends not money and true wealth will follow, I still have them old friends from the first weeks in EQI and Vanguard to this day.

    The rarer an item the more the greed factor kicks in I do hope that the systems allow for spreading the bits which drop rather than the few collecting them all the time which I have seen in other clicky circumstances. I have only ever been in one guild where they used the dkp system and it was overly controlled beyond belief so I left, It just needs people to be fair and not feel the need to control everything and use common sense. I have always passed on stuff I was unable to use and feel if more did this then that would help but folks feel the need to loot stuff they cannot loot that's where it needs looking at from a guild prospective.

    No system is infalable or perfect when humans are involved so it will come down to the leaders to use their influence and lead by example to make loot run smoothly.

    • 1860 posts
    January 15, 2017 12:15 PM PST

    I do hope the in game dkp system is a zero sum system with pre assigned point values for raid loot...with the option to change those point values as your guild sees fit.  But it would be nice to have a given "base" point value as a starting point.

    Edit: Maybe it is more likely that they will simply supply a UI function that can have point values for loot added...and a system to add/subjtract points per person. That seems a much easier way to address it.

    I do hope they at least have a place to keep point values of loot in game though.  If all they do is add an area to keep track of points per player it seems like a waste since you still have to tab out and check loot point values anyway.  At that point you may as well just check the players dkp point list as well.


    This post was edited by philo at January 15, 2017 3:43 PM PST
    • 1921 posts
    January 15, 2017 12:20 PM PST

    Liav said:

    still don't see how a numbers based system that rewards everyone equally as long as they all meet the same standard of contribution could be considered unfair. The only logical explanation is feeling entitled to more loot than others for some arbitrary reason like "I've been here longer".

    Careful, Liav.  That logic could be used to justify a personal loot system instead of static drops. ;)

    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 1:54 PM PST

    vjek said:

    Liav said:

    still don't see how a numbers based system that rewards everyone equally as long as they all meet the same standard of contribution could be considered unfair. The only logical explanation is feeling entitled to more loot than others for some arbitrary reason like "I've been here longer".

    Careful, Liav.  That logic could be used to justify a personal loot system instead of static drops. ;)

    Not really. I think we're talking about two different things.

    I'm specifically talking about loot distribution methods for a static guild with a static raid force. DKP is factually a better system when it comes to satisfying fair loot distribution within a set of paramaters. With DKP, you get out exactly what you put in. Anyone who gets salty under DKP is just greedy or ignorant of how it's supposed to work.

    As far as an in-game loot distribution methods for casual pick up groups/raids, /ran 1000 or whatever other purely random loot distribution method is fine. You can't expect perfection out of a loot system with a bunch of randoms.


    This post was edited by Liav at January 15, 2017 4:15 PM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 15, 2017 4:10 PM PST

    Liav said:

    vjek said:

    Liav said:

    still don't see how a numbers based system that rewards everyone equally as long as they all meet the same standard of contribution could be considered unfair. The only logical explanation is feeling entitled to more loot than others for some arbitrary reason like "I've been here longer".

    Careful, Liav.  That logic could be used to justify a personal loot system instead of static drops. ;)

    Not really. I think we're talking about two different things.

    I'm specifically talking about loot distribution methods for a static guild with a static raid force. DKP is objectively superior to every other system as long as the correct parameters are used, if avoiding arbitrary biases is your goal. With DKP, you get out exactly what you put in. Anyone who gets salty under DKP is just greedy or ignorant of how it's supposed to work.

    As far as an in-game loot distribution methods for casual pick up groups/raids, /ran 1000 or whatever other purely random loot distribution method is fine. You can't expect perfection out of a loot system with a bunch of randoms.

     

    "Objectively superior" ?
    Would like to just say using that kind of arguing is just, dangerous. Please don't.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 15, 2017 7:06 PM PST
    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 4:18 PM PST

    Youmu said:

    "Objectively superior" ?
    Would like to just say using that kind of arguing is just, dangerous. Please don't.

    //Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie

    Edited my post if it makes you feel better. I have no desire to argue about the philosophy of truth, ain't nobody got time for that. If you want to argue that numbers can be interpreted subjectively, ain't nobody got time for that, either.

    I regret replying to this awful thread.


    This post was edited by Liav at January 15, 2017 4:18 PM PST
    • 1618 posts
    January 15, 2017 4:31 PM PST

    Raid loot systems are best left up to to individual guilds/raid forces. Having several built-in options is great, as long as they are options.

    Raid loot is a major social decision in creating and sustaining a raid force. When I am looking for a guild, I am looking for what I consider to be a fair system. I may turn down an otherwise great guild based on their loot system. Raid loot systems are often a source of conflict and can tear guilds down.

    As long as everyone knows the guild/raid rules up front and they are enforced objectively as possible, everyone should be happy. If you don't like the guild/raid rules, join another force.

    The game CAN provide built-in options, but should not force the decision onto forces.

    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 4:40 PM PST

    @Beefcake

    The issue occurs when someone posits that DKP is unfair. It means they don't understand DKP. If someone wants to run a guild with loot council, go for it. I couldn't care less and I won't be there.

    I get irritated when people level criticisms against things they don't understand and falsely attribute things to systems as a result of it.

    If you don't like using numbers to distribute loot, more power to you. If you're going to imply that it's unfair though, that's patently false and you need to be called out on it.

    If I put a rule in my DKP system that every week, 5% of the entire guild's DKP is deducted and added to mine, that'd be unfair. You can certainly make it unfair, but it's not intrinsic to DKP. This is as opposed to a system like loot council where every single choice is a separate, biased event.

    With DKP, you set parameters and the output must necessarily follow that paramaters. If that isn't the definition of objectivity, I don't know what is.

    Edit: Furthermore, we can debate about the nature of fairness and if fairness is actually perfectly achievable, and to that I'll say ain't nobody got time for that. I will say that a numbers-based system that adheres to strict parameters where all parties are in agreement with the parameters is about as close to it as we can practically get.


    This post was edited by Liav at January 15, 2017 4:48 PM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 15, 2017 4:51 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Youmu said:

    "Objectively superior" ?
    Would like to just say using that kind of arguing is just, dangerous. Please don't.

    //Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie

    Edited my post if it makes you feel better. I have no desire to argue about the philosophy of truth, ain't nobody got time for that. If you want to argue that numbers can be interpreted subjectively, ain't nobody got time for that, either.

    I regret replying to this awful thread.

    I am not arguing any of those thing. But DKP as a system is not 100% fair (an no system probably is, if we don't just random-roll everything, then no one is happy) for what gives DKP and how much each thing gives is subjective, for that is determined by people with biases. It is a gameable system and calling it the ultimate best way is basically shutting the doors for potential discussion about other ways. I don't even think worlds best mathematician can actually solve this as it is so subjective on what is contribution and how much it is worth.


    I'm just saying being adamant and extreme in ones expression and attitude towards anything is not good. And making claims as if they were facts is irresponsible imo.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 15, 2017 7:43 PM PST
    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 4:55 PM PST

    Youmu said:

    I am not arguing any of those thing. But DKP as a system is not 100% fair (an no system probably is, if we don't just random-roll everything, then no one is happy) for what gives DKP and how much each thing gives is subjective, for that is determined by people with biases. It is a gameable system and calling it the ultimate best way is basically shutting the doors for potential discussion about other ways. I don't even think worlds best mathematician can actually solve this as it is so subjective on what is contribution and how much it is worth.


    I'm just saying being adamant and extreme in ones expression and attitude towards anything is not good. And making claims as if they were facts is irresponsible imo.

    //Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie

    We're talking past eachother because you're misunderstanding which part of DKP I'm talking about.

    DKP is basically an equation where the output is input filtered through specific parameters. For all practical purposes, it is completely removed from subjectivity. I'm not claiming absolute truth here and I'll be more careful with my wording in the future. I figured it was pretty obvious that I'm speaking from a position of pragmatism. The sun will rise tomorrow, 2+2=4, DKP isn't subjective.

    For instance, if you get 1 DKP for every raid boss that is killed, how is that subjective? Oh, but we can discuss what constitutes a raid boss! However, that is a separate discussion entirely.


    This post was edited by Liav at January 15, 2017 4:57 PM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 15, 2017 5:14 PM PST

    What those parameters are is where the subjective part lies. Yes, saying each raid boss gives X DKP is probably the most objective way of doing DKP, but is it the fairest? There is a line of fair and subjectivity of DKP that I believe is very fine. How you define DKP can also be a problem, is it contribution to the raid, attendance to the raid, contribution to the guild as a whole? There is a myriad of problems hiding underneath which not neccessarily leads to unfairness in itself but which can lead to unfairness through the "gaming of the system".
    It is a hard problem to solve.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 15, 2017 7:44 PM PST
    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 5:30 PM PST

    Right, but then we start getting into idealism. It is virtually impossible to have an absolutely fair system, all we can do is come up with systems to reduce unfairness as much as possible. DKP reduces unfairness to the furthest extent I've seen. Every proposed system I see to replace DKP ends up introducing further injustice.

    The objective of DKP is to set forth a standard that players can reasonably adhere to and be rewarded for. Awarding every special snowflake in their own unique way is practically impossible.

     


    This post was edited by Liav at January 15, 2017 5:31 PM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 15, 2017 5:40 PM PST

    I too think that DKP might be the best system, but not because it is the fairest but because the "control" which the implementor of the system gets. What I mean specifically is that it gives power in the way of some game theory and emergent behaviour, making one able to promote good and desires behaviour from the members of the guild. It might (and quite probably is not) not be the fairest but I think it might be the system with the potential to have the least "toxic" internal community. But maybe I am just insane to think like this.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 15, 2017 7:44 PM PST
    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 5:51 PM PST

    Youmu said:

    I too think that DKP might be the best system, but not because it is the fairest but because the "control" which the implementor of the system gets. What I mean specifically is that it gives power in the way of some game theory and emergent behaviour, making one able to promote good and desires behaviour from the members of the guild. It might (and quite probably is not) not be the fairest but I think it might be the system with the potential to have the least "toxic" internal community. But maybe I am just insane to think like this.



    //Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie

    I agree that DKP is a good way to motivate a guild towards a certain behavior, but that applies equally to loot council. For instance, an officer telling their guild mates to send nudes in exchange for loot is also a way to motivate a guild towards certain behavior.

    The nature of reality dictates that any distribution system (goods, services, etc.) can be prone to bias. However, I don't feel like getting into geopolitics for the purpose of the discussion.

    Ideally, there'd be a Loot Distribution Deity that would just distribute loot for us in a perfectly ideal manner and no one would ever feel cheated. Unfortunately, reality doesn't work that way so we design systems that give humans a set of expectations to meet and a predetermined reward for that expectation.

    If I apply to a guild and the DKP rules are "be online and LFG at X time for a 10 DKP on-time bonus, and you get 10 DKP per raid boss that is killed while you are performing your role", I'd be hard pressed to complain that such a system isn't rewarding me. If everyone else is receiving the same reward for the same standards, I'd be an idiot to claim that it's unfair. If I can't meet the rules, I can go somewhere else.

    If someone wants to propose a superior system to that I'm all ears. If you respond with "loot council", my head might actually explode.

    • 151 posts
    January 15, 2017 6:07 PM PST

    What about Loot Council? Ever heard of Loot Council? xD

     

    Never actually used a Loot Council but it sounds terrible, who wants politics and its corruption in a game you are just trying to have fun in,

    I actually like "Suicide King", it is simple and ye it gives veterans a slight advantage but the thing is that they probably need gear less than the ones beneath them and when they get something they get pushed down anyways so ultimately in time it will all equal out. There is not need to balance the DKP "economy" and you could modify it to reward other kinds of contribution like DKP without the hassle of trying to figure out what a fair amount of points is.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 15, 2017 7:44 PM PST
    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 6:25 PM PST

    Suicide King, interesting. Sounds like round robin with an extra layer though. I can't say I'm a fan, but I really am just die hard about DKP so don't take it personally.

    • 3237 posts
    January 15, 2017 6:26 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Youmu said:

    I too think that DKP might be the best system, but not because it is the fairest but because the "control" which the implementor of the system gets. What I mean specifically is that it gives power in the way of some game theory and emergent behaviour, making one able to promote good and desires behaviour from the members of the guild. It might (and quite probably is not) not be the fairest but I think it might be the system with the potential to have the least "toxic" internal community. But maybe I am just insane to think like this.



    //Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie

    I agree that DKP is a good way to motivate a guild towards a certain behavior, but that applies equally to loot council. For instance, an officer telling their guild mates to send nudes in exchange for loot is also a way to motivate a guild towards certain behavior.

    The nature of reality dictates that any distribution system (goods, services, etc.) can be prone to bias. However, I don't feel like getting into geopolitics for the purpose of the discussion.

    Ideally, there'd be a Loot Distribution Deity that would just distribute loot for us in a perfectly ideal manner and no one would ever feel cheated. Unfortunately, reality doesn't work that way so we design systems that give humans a set of expectations to meet and a predetermined reward for that expectation.

    If I apply to a guild and the DKP rules are "be online and LFG at X time for a 10 DKP on-time bonus, and you get 10 DKP per raid boss that is killed while you are performing your role", I'd be hard pressed to complain that such a system isn't rewarding me. If everyone else is receiving the same reward for the same standards, I'd be an idiot to claim that it's unfair. If I can't meet the rules, I can go somewhere else.

    If someone wants to propose a superior system to that I'm all ears. If you respond with "loot council", my head might actually explode.

     

    How about a blended approach?  My guild always used a standard DKP system that also had a main-tank loot policy.  The main tank was extremely dependable, having 99%+ raid attendance over the stretch of years and years.  He was also the guild leader, creator, raid leader, and guild banker ... aka, heart and soul of the entire guild.  Our guild only had 3 plate tanks in general and neither of the off-tanks had any issue with the loot policy.  It seemed to work extremely well though because our guild was always at the forefront of beating new content.  I suppose one could argue "why not have a main healer, melee dps, caster dps, etc?" and to that I would say it obviously becomes too much of a barrier for the rest of the guild.  I would be perfectly fine with seeing a guild implement a standard dkp system with the main tank loot policy caveat.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 15, 2017 6:27 PM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 15, 2017 6:31 PM PST

    Uhm, that sounds REALLY shady. I have a hard time seeing how people were ok with that. Putting in something to reward the main-tank, which is yourself, and the raid attendence is not surprising if he was the raid and guild leader together with giving himself more loot.

     

    Liav said:

    Suicide King, interesting. Sounds like round robin with an extra layer though. I can't say I'm a fan, but I really am just die hard about DKP so don't take it personally.



    It is kind of some mix of a DKP system and a Queue I would say, where contribution is rewarded with moving up the queue instead of gaining points.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 15, 2017 7:45 PM PST
    • 121 posts
    January 15, 2017 6:34 PM PST

    Liav said:

    If I apply to a guild and the DKP rules are "be online and LFG at X time for a 10 DKP on-time bonus, and you get 10 DKP per raid boss that is killed while you are performing your role", I'd be hard pressed to complain that such a system isn't rewarding me. If everyone else is receiving the same reward for the same standards, I'd be an idiot to claim that it's unfair. If I can't meet the rules, I can go somewhere else.

    I'd say that in all my years in mmorpgs that DKP has been the best solution I've seen for the choices available so that would be my preference hands down.  But I do see why some can feel that it can be unfair.  The situation that comes to mind that I've seen many many times is this:

    Raid 1 is Wed and Raid 2 is Fri.  Player A can only make Fri raid due to RL.  Wed raid does an easier zone and raid kills 3 bosses in 3 hrs.  Fri raid is a new zone and the raid spends 4 hrs and cant down one boss.  Player A feels it's unfair because he raided for 4 hours and got no DKP where another player raided Wed and got 3 DPK in less time.

    So yeah, DKP can be unfair for sure but I still think it's the best system compared to others I've seen.  Lesser of many evils if you will.

    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 6:37 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    How about a blended approach?  My guild always used a standard DKP system that also had a main-tank loot policy.  The main tank was extremely dependable, having 99%+ raid attendance over the stretch of years and years.  He was also the guild leader, creator, raid leader, and guild banker ... aka, heart and soul of the entire guild.  Our guild only had 3 plate tanks in general and neither of the off-tanks had any issue with the loot policy.  It seemed to work extremely well though because our guild was always at the forefront of beating new content.  I suppose one could argue "why not have a main healer, melee dps, caster dps, etc?" and to that I would say it obviously becomes too much of a barrier for the rest of the guild.  I would be perfectly fine with seeing a guild implement a standard dkp system with the main tank loot policy caveat.

    If it works for you, great. I don't think it's necessarily universally applicable. If your guild's tanks decide, collectively, to bid non-competitively in favor of a main tank, go for it. As a hard coded rule? Not in my opinion.

    Also, if this specific guy shows up to 99.9% of raids, he's already earning more DKP than the other tanks unless they also show up to 99.9% of raids, in which case whether he shows up to 99.9% of raids or not isn't a valid consideration, anyway.

     

    • 97 posts
    January 15, 2017 6:41 PM PST

    The way we did loot in VG was the best I have ever seen.  Earned DKP was only good for a set number of days then it would drop off.  If you spent DKP, the item would cost a set amount, and you would recover a percentage of the spent DKP over a set number of day duration.  You could go negative.  So if an item cost 100 DKP and you had 100 days as the duration, you would recover 1 DKP a day for 100 days.

     

    This motivated people to show up constantly.  Even 1 missed raid could cost you the item you wanted 3 weeks later.  I think 3/4 of the guild had over an 80% attendance rate.  Also, before the fight even started, people knew exactly who the "good" loot was going to.  Loot could be done in a couple minutes. 

     

     

    • 2130 posts
    January 15, 2017 6:43 PM PST

    streeg said:

    I'd say that in all my years in mmorpgs that DKP has been the best solution I've seen for the choices available so that would be my preference hands down.  But I do see why some can feel that it can be unfair.  The situation that comes to mind that I've seen many many times is this:

    Raid 1 is Wed and Raid 2 is Fri.  Player A can only make Fri raid due to RL.  Wed raid does an easier zone and raid kills 3 bosses in 3 hrs.  Fri raid is a new zone and the raid spends 4 hrs and cant down one boss.  Player A feels it's unfair because he raided for 4 hours and got no DKP where another player raided Wed and got 3 DPK in less time.

    So yeah, DKP can be unfair for sure but I still think it's the best system compared to others I've seen.  Lesser of many evils if you will.

    I don't really think that could be considered unfair, for all practical purposes. No one schedule is going to perfectly accomodate all players. For instance, guilds with batphones will always have wildly varying attendance based on the time of day. It's a part of the contract you accept when you apply to a guild.

    That said, I've never personally been in a guild that didn't reward players DKP for attempts at killing new content. I can think of a number of ways to compensate people for their time, equally, provided they showed up for the attempts. For instance, every separate attempt being worth the amount of DKP you'd earn on a successful kill, with bonus DKP for the eventual successful kill.

    At the end of the day, what matters is awarding people equally for meeting the same reasonable standard.