DKP is the only fair system, in my opinion.
You could push diplos all day long in Vanguard but realistically diplos weren't required to complete content. They were a decent bonus but at the end of the day, showing up to raid and executing the strategy is what gets loot to drop. Awarding DKP for something like pushing diplos isn't really a good idea, in my opinion, because you run into the issue of arguing about how much DKP people's time is worth.
For simplicity's sake and minimizing the amount of negative potential, awarding DKP based only on showing up to raid and performing well are all that matters, with some nuance. You don't show up to Seru without bane weapons. You don't train your raid. You don't AFK in the middle of fights.
Consider the following scenario. You have two Rogues in guild, one parses significantly less than the other. Should the Rogue who parses less get less DKP as an incentive to parse better? Probably not. It's an unreasonable expectation. It's an unreasonable expectation for everyone to give 1000000000000%, especially for people who have jobs and can't necessarily show up an hour before raid to push diplos or something.
At the end of the day, no guild is perfect. Everyone has different schedules. Awarding DKP for too many nuanced scenarios leads to bad situations where you punish people for having a life outside of the game.
I don't speak for everyone, but I certainly speak for myself when I say I'd be pissed if 3 people in our guild essentially got double DKP because they didn't do anything else but play the game all day. This is coming from someone who has maybe too much free time.
Liav said:I don't speak for everyone, but I certainly speak for myself when I say I'd be pissed if 3 people in our guild essentially got double DKP because they didn't do anything else but play the game all day. This is coming from someone who has maybe too much free time.
i understand that theres more to your post than just this.. but saying this is like saying i was pissed off because 3 people worked over night and got X amount of work done that im now not going to have to do or make up for.. and then giving them credit for it. So youre expecting to receive the same acknowledgement or reward because your life required you to go home to a family so you couldnt get any more work done so you go home, however they dont have people relying on them so they can stay and they chose to do more but you also receive the same credit??
Just going back to my post about how the leadership needs to determine how points are awarded and the "value" you bring to the raid and the guild.
Aayden said:i understand that theres more to your post than just this.. but saying this is like saying i was pissed off because 3 people worked over night and got X amount of work done that im now not going to have to do or make up for.. and then giving them credit for it. So youre expecting to receive the same acknowledgement or reward because your life required you to go home to a family so you couldnt get any more work done so you go home, however they dont have people relying on them so they can stay and they chose to do more but they are acknowledged just the same?
Just going back to my post about how the leadership needs to determine how points are awarded and the "value" you bring to the raid and the guild.
I expect to earn DKP to spend on raid gear by raiding, not by performing extracurricular activities that don't have a direct, substantive impact on the success of a raid.
Things that I find acceptable to give DKP for:
Anything else is just fluff. Your example is not analogous to mine. I don't expect DKP unless there is a direct, substantive impact.
Edit: Bullets still broken after >6mo. Feelsbadman.
Liav said:Aayden said:i understand that theres more to your post than just this.. but saying this is like saying i was pissed off because 3 people worked over night and got X amount of work done that im now not going to have to do or make up for.. and then giving them credit for it. So youre expecting to receive the same acknowledgement or reward because your life required you to go home to a family so you couldnt get any more work done so you go home, however they dont have people relying on them so they can stay and they chose to do more but they are acknowledged just the same?
Just going back to my post about how the leadership needs to determine how points are awarded and the "value" you bring to the raid and the guild.
I expect to earn DKP to spend on raid gear by raiding, not by performing extracurricular activities that don't have a direct, substantive impact on the success of a raid.
Things that I find acceptable to give DKP for:
- Getting keyed for a raid zone.
- Getting an item that is a REQUIREMENT to kill a mob (think Seru bane weapons).
- Bonus DKP for racing against another guild to beat a contested raid. Whether you're successful in winning the race to earn the bonus DKP is situationally up to debate.
- Bonus DKP for a first time successful raid kill.
- Bonus DKP for a server first.
- Double bonus DKP for a world first.
- Performing your role adequately in a given successful raid kill. Don't go AFK in the middle of a fight. Don't train the raid. Switch to adds if required if you're a DPS.
Anything else is just fluff. Your example is not analogous to mine. I don't expect DKP unless there is a direct, substantive impact.
Edit: Bullets still broken after >6mo. Feelsbadman.
so youre saying, that the outside or "extracurricular" contributions made to the guild to allow them to be successful in raids has no worth and does not correlate and should not be rewarded?
Aayden said:so youre saying, that the outside or "extracurricular" contributions made to the guild to allow them to be successful in raids has no worth and does not correlate and should not be rewarded?
No. My assertion is that there are few if any extracurricular activities you can do to make yourself successful, outside of the list I made above.
The number of guilds who wiped to a fight because they didn't have diplos? Zero. People pushed diplos because they're supplemental buffs, so hey, why not? We didn't award DKP for it though because it wasn't necessary. Only things that are necessary to a raid's success should be worth DKP, in my eyes. The number of things that are necessary to complete a raid outside of the raid itself are few.
Liav said:Aayden said:so youre saying, that the outside or "extracurricular" contributions made to the guild to allow them to be successful in raids has no worth and does not correlate and should not be rewarded?
No. My assertion is that there are few if any extracurricular activities you can do to make yourself successful, outside of the list I made above.
The number of guilds who wiped to a fight because they didn't have diplos? Zero. People pushed diplos because they're supplemental buffs, so hey, why not? We didn't award DKP for it though because it wasn't necessary. Only things that are necessary to a raid's success should be worth DKP, in my eyes. The number of things that are necessary to complete a raid outside of the raid itself are few.
well i suppose we can only assume all of this from earlier MMOs as well.. the point being here is "alternative" as the topic is headed.. however i agree with you, only things that directly effect the raid should be awarded points.. but youve also validated my point even if youve mentioned that the things to be completed outside of the raid are few, they are still relevant to the raid.. and in regards to diplos what do you mean? sounds like diplomacy to me.
Also.. im not saying that extracurriculars would be a replacement to showing up to raids and performing.. more so that they are another means for alternate advancement in the DKP system.. if you can show up for most raids but not all.. this may present a way to be awarded a few extra points, nothing that would allow you to stay in the range of attending all raids or what have you, but again just an alternative and opportunity to gain more and be acknowledged for some of the things that go maybe a little unnoticed.
Aayden said:well i suppose we can only assume all of this from earlier MMOs as well.. the point being here is "alternative" as the topic is headed.. however i agree with you, only things that directly effect the raid should be awarded points.. but youve also validated my point even if youve mentioned that the things to be completed outside of the raid are few, they are still relevant to the raid.. and in regards to diplos what do you mean? sounds like diplomacy to me.
Also.. im not saying that extracurriculars would be a replacement to showing up to raids and performing.. more so that they are another means for alternate advancement in the DKP system.. if you can show up for most raids but not all.. this may present a way to be awarded a few extra points, nothing that would allow you to stay in the range of attending all raids or what have you, but again just an alternative and opportunity to gain more and be acknowledged for some of the things that go maybe a little unnoticed.
I made a list of things outside of raids that I deemed worthy of being awarded DKP. Our discussion isn't about things outside of raids being worth DKP, it's about what things outside of raids are worth DKP. My assertion is that the list is very small, and mostly or completely covered by the list I made above.
That said, your second paragraph just reaffirms my point, imo. The amount of DKP awarded is either small enough to be inconsequential, or big enough to be unfair to people who are unable or unwilling to give 10000000000000%. I've been a member of numerous elite guilds and the number of people who are able to contribute close to the maximum possible is staggeringly small. It's also a matter of pragmatism, as I said earlier. It's not necessary for every member of the guild to give the maximum possible, only the maximum of what they are capable of giving, insofar as they are not a burden.
If a person shows up to raid and they aren't a burden insofar that the raid would be better off if they weren't there, they are entitled to as much DKP as any other member. The moment they show up to a fight and AFK in the middle of it, they're getting docked DKP. The moment they show up to Seru without bane weapons, they get docked DKP.
To answer your other inquiry: Diplos refers to Diplomacy, which was a mechanic in Vanguard that allowed you to essentially repetitively play a card game to cause buffs to appear temporarily in various areas in the game. Once you successfully triggered the buff, other players can get within range of that area and be granted the buff. It was a time consuming process and the buffs were substantial, but never required to complete raid content.
Aayden said:so youre saying, that the outside or "extracurricular" contributions made to the guild to allow them to be successful in raids has no worth and does not correlate and should not be rewarded?
I don't feel like DKP points should be given outside of raiding. I'd expect everybody showing up for raids to try to be the best player possible. Help should be given from raiders and non raiders to raiders and non raiders. To reward a helpful and nice attitude sounds a bit unduly for me. DKP systems are made for raids, DKP gets spend in raids, and in my opinion, should be awarded in raids. There are a lot helpful people who never raid because it's just not for them, for whatever reason. And yet they still might contribute a lot to the guild, even helping the raiders. What good does it to them to get DKP points they can never spent? To get the breadcrumbs of the loot nobody of the raiders has need for? If so, they should get that for free anyway. Or do you think they shoud compete with the raiders for powerful items, because they have the DKP for it? Since they didn't contribute to the kill, that also doesn't sound right for me. Or do you think, only the raiders should get something for their helpful attitude and the non raiders shouldn't, since they can't spend the points anyway? That's also not the most elegant nor nicest solution.
Liav said:DKP is the only fair system, in my opinion.
I totally agree, as long as the officers, leaders did it fairly, and not give points away.
For the most part, everyone following the DKP rules did really well. Man didnt that pave the way for a now common system people use?
So many EQ terms being used today in other MMO's, NBG, /random, DKP ahah
Duffy said:Aayden said:so youre saying, that the outside or "extracurricular" contributions made to the guild to allow them to be successful in raids has no worth and does not correlate and should not be rewarded?
I don't feel like DKP points should be given outside of raiding. I'd expect everybody showing up for raids to try to be the best player possible. Help should be given from raiders and non raiders to raiders and non raiders. To reward a helpful and nice attitude sounds a bit unduly for me. DKP systems are made for raids, DKP gets spend in raids, and in my opinion, should be awarded in raids. There are a lot helpful people who never raid because it's just not for them, for whatever reason. And yet they still might contribute a lot to the guild, even helping the raiders. What good does it to them to get DKP points they can never spent? To get the breadcrumbs of the loot nobody of the raiders has need for? If so, they should get that for free anyway. Or do you think they shoud compete with the raiders for powerful items, because they have the DKP for it? Since they didn't contribute to the kill, that also doesn't sound right for me. Or do you think, only the raiders should get something for their helpful attitude and the non raiders shouldn't, since they can't spend the points anyway? That's also not the most elegant nor nicest solution.
Well it depends on what system and rules your using. If you manage a guild, vote on it. Organize the rules to how you see fit. IF nobody likes those rules, do not enforce them on others.
DKP can also break your guild in half. I remember the day seeing many guilds upset over DKP rules and would split after the first couple of raids.
Sometimes even the officers used it to loot everything up, trade off to other accounts. Sad, it really is.
But yes make your own rules up, following an already made up rule system is not bad. Most of the concrete problems have been ironed out with DKP default system. There are custom DKP rule sets and coding out there.
vjek said:
and/or
Loot is personal, not shared. Personal loot means the only thing that's shared from monster kills is autosplit currency (if any) and XP. Everything else, all resources, all loot, all the stuff that comes from monsters? That's all personalized for each individual character. Optionally, you can show what other people get, but typically you only see what you get, because it's only useful to you.
This is the best option in my opinion. not sure why more games dont personalize the loot or have smarter loot tables.
In Everquest I raided for many years under a loot council which I felt was the best system at that time, but looking back, I found the system rather cumbersome.
Though rewarding players with loot based on their overall contribution to the guild still can be abused. Exaggerated example is a player milking all the possible amounts of DKP from outside raiding sources effectively punishing those who do not have much time outside raiding. Another post suggested a cap of some sort, but if the system isn't rewarding enough, people will often not do what the system intended.
It comes down to the issue that with all systems, no matter how well they are designed or good intentioned, players will often game it to their advantage.
DKP suffers from hidden circles of people conserving their points or players passing on legitimate upgrades for the sake that something on their list may drop later.
Random suffers from people who do not have an internal check for loot gluttony or dry spells due to the dice.
From my personal experience DKP is the least fuss and the least mess even though I dislike it.
Though there is another system I've heard of but never had any experience with.
It basically revolves around bidding on ingame currency. The player that wins has to surrender their bid amount to the rest of the attendees minus a guild fee if the guild supplied raiding reagents. So in a 25 man, player A bids 25000 Gold on an item wins it. Player A gets 1k gold back and the item, whislt everyone gets 1k each. Of course this can be abuse with a sufficently large gold purse unless a cap is put in place. Has anyone had taken part in such a system?
If you've seen any of my previous posts then you'd know I prefer the least amount of hand-holding the game does for us. So a system in place that decides for us how we distribute raid loot is a bad idea. It's all subjective and one raid leader may prefer one style over the next.
I prefer loot council, DKP, and suicide kings for distirbuting loot. DKP and suicide kings are very fair methods but a loot council can be very effective for a guild who is new to raiding. So it would be disheartening if I were locked into a specific system and couldn't use another.
Liav said:Things that I find acceptable to give DKP for:
- Getting keyed for a raid zone.
- Getting an item that is a REQUIREMENT to kill a mob (think Seru bane weapons).
- Bonus DKP for racing against another guild to beat a contested raid. Whether you're successful in winning the race to earn the bonus DKP is situationally up to debate.
- Bonus DKP for a first time successful raid kill.
- Bonus DKP for a server first.
- Double bonus DKP for a world first.
- Performing your role adequately in a given successful raid kill. Don't go AFK in the middle of a fight. Don't train the raid. Switch to adds if required if you're a DPS.
Actually a pretty standard list. If I do decide to lead a guild in Pantheon this is about what I would be doing. Except I would be using a mix of a DKP and Suicide Kings system as in you build DKP and when you win an item you go to 0. With a decay of course. The only other things I would add to this list would be if certain things were needed for raiding like potions/flasks. I would give like 1 DKP per 2 donated to the guild (with a cap on total you can donate) since I do prefer to have the guild supply raiding materials.
Some problems mentioned here have been known for a long time, and guilds have worked out correct solutions for them.
For example, older members having an unfair advantage over newer ones is a consequence of an incorrect DKP system where over time the amount of points given to players is greater than the amount taken away from them for taking loot. The end result of it is that people end up with more and more points and nothing to spend them on, resulting in older members having a hoard of points and effectively first dibs on anything.
The problem is not that a member who attended more raids will get more loot than one who attended less - that is as it should be; the problem is that he will get much more items, and first choice on items, than his raid attendance is worth. It creates a >>constant<< advantage over newer members.
A Zero-sum DKP fixes that - a player will still get more reward for more work, but never a constant, for-ever advantage over new guild members.
Second, it's true that some activities outside of raids can help the guild to progress, but such activities are few and far between. Instead of the game itself awarding some "points" for them, let each guild decide on what is actually important to its progression, and award DKP accordingly.
Of course, in a zero-sum system these points also have to be accounted for. In my guild in WoW, I made a rule that 25% of DKP (created by items that dropped) given to players who attended raids is not given but held in sort of a guild bank, it was an equivalent of taxes that RL governments take. These DKP then funded such activities that we deemed necessary for guild progression, as well as raids that did not generate items but were necessary, such as when you raid a zone or a boss for the first few times, you will likely wipe and not get any loot, yet you have to keep trying in order to work out the strat, so you have to give some reward for attending such (usually rather frustrating) first attempts.
Please note that the amount of points in, over long time, MUST equal the amount of points out, otherwise you will get into the problem #1. Thus, it is NOT a good idea for the game to automatically award points, AA-style. The guild has to keep control of that.
I have mentioned this in other threads but I will repeat it here.
Loot management within a guild is a personal thing and it is handled differently by each guild, therefore we will not be playing any part in managing this system, we will provide enough tools to help guilds manage their members but the loot system will have to be managed by the guild themselves so they can implement what suits them best, whether it be DKP, Loot Council or SKS or something else entirely, it is all personal preference and we won't be implementing one of the other, you will be free to choose how to handle it yourselves and we think that is the best stance to have on this matter.
We don't have any information on guilds or guild management tools at this stage, as they will be worked on further down the road in testing.
I've played many MMOS over the years, and done high end raiding in EQ, WoW, and competed for world/server first stuff in early Rift.
I actually prefer a loot council/officer appointed loot. I've been an officer in a loot council, I've done DKP and helped admin with attendance and such. Personally, I have seen more abuse with people hording points and passing up / trying to let obvious upgrades rots so they could get that 'one piece' they wanted. You can say that's fair, but it's also stupid. If you're dying to raid damage mechanics because you forego HP upgrades to get that epic weapon that drops off the last boss we can't even kill yet... yeah... that's an issue.
We asked people to link their item if the item was an upgrade for them. If for stat reasons or preference they thought it was a sidegrade, we asked people to note that when they linked their item. We talked about where an item was going and then we assigned it and moved on. For high priority items, we generally knew where it was going before the raid started. We kept a fairly small roster (28ish in a 20 man raid environment) and did a pretty solid job, IMO, of being fair. We generally did not give ourselves items first. (It did help that a few of us were the same class and one was a cleric tank and had unique items). We always prioritized our tanks, starting with the MT, and that was known. Our MT was not an officer. We did not penalize people for being 'new'... they'd hoover up all default items, and essentially be 1-2 legit items behind the consistent folks, not in some massive DKP debt. We routinely had officers sit out raids and do admin stuff (check recently loot activity, help other people do things outside of raids). We took attendance and just being online and available counted as much as being in raid. A recruit's main always came before a current member's alt.
To my knowledge, we never had a single person leave the guild over item decisions. We () had some attrition issues due to content stagnation (which most guilds did) and decided to disband when we didn't feel like continually rebuilding the roster and the officer corps had became less interested.
If you cannot trust your officers, you are in the wrong guild. Officers need to act in the best interest of the guild, not personal itemization. No DKP system is going to put items into the place where they will make the biggest difference as well as a solid officer corps. It's got the highest ceiling as far as an loot system works, even though if it also has the biggest risk to be a mess.
Jayko said:I've played many MMOS over the years, and done high end raiding in EQ, WoW, and competed for world/server first stuff in early Rift.
I actually prefer a loot council/officer appointed loot. I've been an officer in a loot council, I've done DKP and helped admin with attendance and such. Personally, I have seen more abuse with people hording points and passing up / trying to let obvious upgrades rots so they could get that 'one piece' they wanted. You can say that's fair, but it's also stupid. If you're dying to raid damage mechanics because you forego HP upgrades to get that epic weapon that drops off the last boss we can't even kill yet... yeah... that's an issue.
We asked people to link their item if the item was an upgrade for them. If for stat reasons or preference they thought it was a sidegrade, we asked people to note that when they linked their item. We talked about where an item was going and then we assigned it and moved on. For high priority items, we generally knew where it was going before the raid started. We kept a fairly small roster (28ish in a 20 man raid environment) and did a pretty solid job, IMO, of being fair. We generally did not give ourselves items first. (It did help that a few of us were the same class and one was a cleric tank and had unique items). We always prioritized our tanks, starting with the MT, and that was known. Our MT was not an officer. We did not penalize people for being 'new'... they'd hoover up all default items, and essentially be 1-2 legit items behind the consistent folks, not in some massive DKP debt. We routinely had officers sit out raids and do admin stuff (check recently loot activity, help other people do things outside of raids). We took attendance and just being online and available counted as much as being in raid. A recruit's main always came before a current member's alt.
To my knowledge, we never had a single person leave the guild over item decisions. We () had some attrition issues due to content stagnation (which most guilds did) and decided to disband when we didn't feel like continually rebuilding the roster and the officer corps had became less interested.
If you cannot trust your officers, you are in the wrong guild. Officers need to act in the best interest of the guild, not personal itemization. No DKP system is going to put items into the place where they will make the biggest difference as well as a solid officer corps. It's got the highest ceiling as far as an loot system works, even though if it also has the biggest risk to be a mess.
I agree completely. As long as you have a solid core of good people who are not loot whores the loot council has worked best in my experience as a raid leader/officer/guild member.
Maximis said:I agree completely. As long as you have a solid core of good people who are not loot whores the loot council has worked best in my experience as a raid leader/officer/guild member.
Can you elaborate?
Closed bidding DKP is by far the fastest method of distributing loot. It also has the advantage of not being subjective. You look at the DKP page, if they have the DKP to spend, they get the item.
I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious to know what advantage you perceive loot council to have over an objective system like DKP.
Maximis said:Jayko said:I've played many MMOS over the years, and done high end raiding in EQ, WoW, and competed for world/server first stuff in early Rift.
I actually prefer a loot council/officer appointed loot. I've been an officer in a loot council, I've done DKP and helped admin with attendance and such. Personally, I have seen more abuse with people hording points and passing up / trying to let obvious upgrades rots so they could get that 'one piece' they wanted. You can say that's fair, but it's also stupid. If you're dying to raid damage mechanics because you forego HP upgrades to get that epic weapon that drops off the last boss we can't even kill yet... yeah... that's an issue.
We asked people to link their item if the item was an upgrade for them. If for stat reasons or preference they thought it was a sidegrade, we asked people to note that when they linked their item. We talked about where an item was going and then we assigned it and moved on. For high priority items, we generally knew where it was going before the raid started. We kept a fairly small roster (28ish in a 20 man raid environment) and did a pretty solid job, IMO, of being fair. We generally did not give ourselves items first. (It did help that a few of us were the same class and one was a cleric tank and had unique items). We always prioritized our tanks, starting with the MT, and that was known. Our MT was not an officer. We did not penalize people for being 'new'... they'd hoover up all default items, and essentially be 1-2 legit items behind the consistent folks, not in some massive DKP debt. We routinely had officers sit out raids and do admin stuff (check recently loot activity, help other people do things outside of raids). We took attendance and just being online and available counted as much as being in raid. A recruit's main always came before a current member's alt.
To my knowledge, we never had a single person leave the guild over item decisions. We () had some attrition issues due to content stagnation (which most guilds did) and decided to disband when we didn't feel like continually rebuilding the roster and the officer corps had became less interested.
If you cannot trust your officers, you are in the wrong guild. Officers need to act in the best interest of the guild, not personal itemization. No DKP system is going to put items into the place where they will make the biggest difference as well as a solid officer corps. It's got the highest ceiling as far as an loot system works, even though if it also has the biggest risk to be a mess.
I agree completely. As long as you have a solid core of good people who are not loot whores the loot council has worked best in my experience as a raid leader/officer/guild member.
This is actually the system I use for my guild, Reverence, and you are right, as long as the guild leader and officers are in favour of guild growth, progression and rewarding those who put the most in, the right people will be chosen for each piece of loot, but again, that is just my guilds personal preference, we may change to DKP for Pantheon, who knows :)
Liav said:Maximis said:I agree completely. As long as you have a solid core of good people who are not loot whores the loot council has worked best in my experience as a raid leader/officer/guild member.
Can you elaborate?
Closed bidding DKP is by far the fastest method of distributing loot. It also has the advantage of not being subjective. You look at the DKP page, if they have the DKP to spend, they get the item.
I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious to know what advantage you perceive loot council to have over an objective system like DKP.
Several people people have already pointed out the impacts of raid members passing on legitimate upgrades to bank all their DKP to get that one Item they are jonesing for. This causes wizards who are trying to get the "staff of own" or "robe of uberness" to die from every AoE because they are gearing full crit gear instead of trying to stay alive. I feel that a loot council also gives recognition to people. When YOU are awarded an item because out of the whole raid force that item will help the raid most if it is in YOUR hands it can give a sense of pride.