Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Alternative to DKP or loot council

    • 15 posts
    September 2, 2016 3:34 PM PDT

    Hello all,

    Just joined but I have been reading the forums for quite a while and cannot recall this being suggested before.  Although I have played many mmo's, I have only spent considerable guild time in EQ and Vanguard, so I cannot say if another game already has something like this in place.  It seems to me we only have only seen three loot distribution models...

    1)  /random  -  Like Scott Baio's dating history, this can only be explained as luck.

    2)  DKP  -  Great for members who raid religiously but can't say I loved losing drops to veteran players who only showed up for raids 1 minute before we began, while I had been pushing diplos religiously for an hour before each raid.  ( I would imagine guild harvesters and crafters might feel the hours they spend each week to make the guild successful are also overlooked)

    3) Loot Council  -  Great in theory...Fascism in practice.  Kidding, but I have been on loot councils before and favoritism is a part of human nature.

    I was thinking that there might be a model that could be implemented relatively easily by the devs and perhaps be a bit more fair at the same time.  Guild levels are not new and the AA vs. adventuring exp slider is not new.  If the devs were to add an additional pip that could be manipulated to the slider, then people could choose to put a percent of their exp toward a guild level or guild reputation level of sorts.  The devs could then set up a guild AA system that rewards only utilitarin or defensive stats, or clickies, etc.  Nothing overpowering and nothing offensive (to save the devs from having to worry about balancing encounters)  and the exp required for each level would be absurd.  That way members could choose to put their adventuring, diplomacy, harvesting, or crafting exp toward the guild if they chose to or if they are maxed out already.  (Note: death penalties should also go against the guild exp to prevent guilds from just loading up on tons of players.  It also seems more realistic that if a guild wipes 10 times on a raid encounter, their reputation might take a hit)

    The raid drops could then be assigned to the member who needs it and has contributed the most exp to the guild, perhaps with a GL override to be safe.  Obviously this still favors the guild members who have been there from the start and put tons of exp toward the guild, which it should, but there could also be a drop down box for the guild leaders to choose the time frame that is reviewed for experience contributions in determining loot.  So let's say there is one that is lifetime, one that is the past year, one the past month, and maybe one that is the past week or day.  This way a guild who raids multiple times a week could possibly have one night where loot is allocated to the highest lifetime contributors, one night to the past month, and one night for just the past day if they want or they can just always do lifetime.  The guild tab could list all of the member's contributions in each category so everyone is always aware of who is going to get first dibs and they can work towards being the front runner in any given category. 

    All said, it would give us more options in loot distribution and allow those who contribute to the guild the most to be at the top of the loot list.  It would also be a significant time sink for us players, which might give the devs some breathing room to implement things post-launch or work on expansions.  This wouldn't replace AA, assuming AA will eventually be in the game, but act as a sort of dulled down guild-wide AA system.  Some ideas of what one guild level could purchase for the guild would be...

    - increase all members poison resist by 0.1%

    - give members a 0.2% chance to auto-resurrect

    - Decrease fizzle, failed combines, etc by 0.4%

    -Give the guild a key for a raid encounter that cannot be reached otherwise

    -Give each member 2 personal inventory slots in a guildhall inventory management system

    -increase members chance of finding ultra rare resources by 0.5%

    - give guild limited time exp bonuses or clickies

    - give the guild some mitigation increase to the environmental effects we are all happy to see coming...sort of like snowshoes or umbrellas would work

    -increases to run speed or swimming, etc.

    The options pretty open and obviously the devs would have limits on how much any one skill could be increased.  I personally belive the normal AA should be reserved for offensive, major defensive, and attribute increases.  It would also be optional so those guilds who wanto to keep the loot council or DKP systems could.  Anyway it was something I was just thinking might make sense, and I wanted to get everyone's feedback if this is something that the community might want to see or not? 

    • 1921 posts
    September 2, 2016 6:36 PM PDT

    Regarding looting ( or role customization and power amplification)

    My take on it, based on what I've seen and what you've described, Bewtleg, is that there are better options available.
    However, in order to make a departure and innovate with loot, a few things have to be true. The development team has to have it as a design goal. That's a big one. But, presuming that's true, here's a few points to ponder and discuss, or a few options for loot:

    You simply augment/adjust your gear slots yourself. Everything in the world you get is just raw material towards that mechanic. You don't get complete items from monsters, you get appearance skins, trophies, gems, or whatever other thing that you either slot directly into slots or use crafting to create/distill/combine the things that customize each slot. This way, you make your gear exactly what you want. Gear cost/value caps aren't always required, but if they're not, then you need per character stat caps by level. Augmented slots are grouped into profiles or outfits.
    and/or
    You get new complete dropped gear all the time. This is the classic treadmill model, and works, but isn't particularly innovative. Can be crafted, drops, bought with expansion currency, whatever. Most gear is not class bound in this model, but some is. All non-class-bound gear becomes contentious and problematic for need vs. greed looting systems if no other mechanism is used. (Who gets the FBSS? monk? warrior? rogue? ranger?)
    and/or
    Drops are generated and customized for you, at the time of looting. This is sometimes known as procedural loot. This can be done in such a way that loot drops for your current specialization, ability loadout, hotbar, skills, or active/chosen role profile. This means the longer you adventure using a given set of skills, potentially, the more loot you get for that specialization.  Requires significant time and effort investment in adventuring to get what you want, especially if you want multiple gear sets for multiple profiles, per character.
    and/or
    Loot is personal, not shared. Personal loot means the only thing that's shared from monster kills is autosplit currency (if any) and XP. Everything else, all resources, all loot, all the stuff that comes from monsters? That's all personalized for each individual character.  Optionally, you can show what other people get, but typically you only see what you get, because it's only useful to you.

    Regarding guild advancement, my opinion is that a guild should always be the sum of its parts, at that moment. That is, it should be desirable to poach players who have invested significant time & effort, to create social change. I've considered, at length, what you've described regarding redirecting all that time and effort into the 'entity' known as a guild, but the risk to each individual is too great with that model. Flip it around, and all the risk is on the social cohesion, friendship, and leadership skills of the officer corp and guild leader, as it should be, imo. There should always be something a player can put XP/time/effort into, even if that is literally, via in-game XP funnelling/redirection mechanics, making themselves more attractive as a potential guild member.

    There's more to these ideas (obviously) but I don't want to "write a novel" so I'll leave it at that for now.


    This post was edited by vjek at September 2, 2016 6:36 PM PDT
    • 15 posts
    September 2, 2016 8:28 PM PDT

    I appreciate your response Vjek and you have given me a lot to think about.  I do not think, however, that we are necessarily talking about the same thing here.  That is my fault, it is a somewhat complicated explanation, and I unfortunatley need to write another novel to be a bit more succinct.  (Never thought I would say that)

    My question in all of this is pretty simple but probably best described by an example...

    Your guild goes out and kills a raid target and it drops a "Shield of Awesome Sauce" which is usable by paladins only.  (Doesnt matter what the loot is, it could be a spell, gear, component, socket, etc, the point is that it is "Valuable" to members of the raid.)

    You have three paladins in the raid (also your guild) that all want the shield.  

    The first Paladin, lets call him "Vain Paladin", has been at every raid since the guild started three years ago and is sitting on 500 DKP points and 100 personal AA points. The problem is that Vain Paladin only shows up for raids and pretty much never really helps any of your guildmates out at all other than by showing up for raids.  Guild leadership feels indifferent toward him.

    The second Paladin, lets call him "Hippie Paladin", has also been with the guild since it started, has showed up for 50% of the raids and is sitting on 200 DKP points and 10 personal AA points.  He spent months leveling up crafting, diplo, harvesting, etc. instead of his own personal AA points.  He is always there before raids pushing diplos, harvesting, or crafting for the guild.  Guild leadership knows he is there to help whenever they ask, but other than that they feel indifferent towards him.   

    The third Paladin, lets call him "Fun Paladin", has only been with the guild for a year, he has 50 DKP and 40 personal AA points.  He shows up for raids religiously and helps out where he can.  Guild leadership for whatever reason, however, love Fun Paladin and he often groups with the leaders and officers for personal groups. 

    The question then becomes who should get the Shield of Awesome Sauce that all three want from the raid boss you just killed?

    If we use DKP... Vain Paladin is likely to win, Hippie Paladin feels like his hard work to help the guild is overlooked, and Fun Paladin feels discouraged because he thinks he will always be behind the DKP point curve.

    If we use Loot Council then any of them could win, but let's say Fun Paladin wins.  Now Vain Paladin is mad because he has shown up for every raid for three years, not just one, and Hippie Paladin still feels like his hard work to help the guild is overlooked, but now he is also mad because he has been raiding with the guild for three years, not just one.

    My point is that there is no good system out there to determine who should get the Shield of Awesome Sauce without making some folks feel underappreciated or sort of hopeless.  

    The goal of my post is to possibly introduce a different system whereby everyone can be measured by a uniform standard when determing who gets raid drops...that being guild experience contributions.  If the amounts of each member's contributions are listed somewhere for all to see and the guild leaders tell the guild ahead of time what time frame will be used when determining loot allocations for a raid...then there would be no surprises.  Hopefully nobody would feel alienated or that the guild leaders were playing favorites, and since the guild can do a raid that only looks at the past week's contributions, those newer folks who normally would feel they will always be behind the DKP curve, could also have a good shot at some descent raid drops.  At the same time it gives the entire guild something to work toward together and some small bonuses for achieving a higher guild level.  It also seems to work well with the "social" aspect of the games the devs are striving for.  Nobody is forcing anyone to put exp toward the guild, but if you don't, then you will likely be one of the last people to get the Shield of Awesome Sauce.  

    That's really all I meant...although I do like the notion that death penalties count against your guild's reputation/level experience.  I think if your guild wipes six times and takes an entire night trying to kill a contested raid boss, and subsequently prevents other guilds from trying, then your guild reputation should suffer.  Sort of along the lines of the "meaningful" death penalty the devs are talking about. I personally hated corpse runs at 2 am on a weekday, and im pretty sure the department of labor lists "Early Morning Corpse Runs" as one of the leading causes of unemployment in America.

    Sorry again for the novel, but I can't stand feeling like you will always be behind the DKP curve and I have personally resigned as a guild officer and loot council member before because it became clear to me that favorites were being played.  I just think we can do better.


    This post was edited by Bewtleg at September 2, 2016 8:50 PM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 2, 2016 10:12 PM PDT

    Bewtleg said: ... My point is that there is no good system out there to determine who should get the Shield of Awesome Sauce without making some folks feel underappreciated or sort of hopeless.  

    The goal of my post is to possibly introduce a different system whereby everyone can be measured by a uniform standard when determing who gets raid drops...that being guild experience contributions. ...

    Yep, understood.  My response was to outline options that eliminate the need for any such systems by innovating on loot/reward mechanics, potentially, in Pantheon, if the devs have that as a design goal.
    I'm a big proponent of changing things for the better when a tradition creates a poor customer experience.  I didn't mean to derail your subject though, so if you want to continue the discussion in another thread, or in private, or drop the innovation sidebar for the moment, that's perfectly fine with me. :)

    • 15 posts
    September 2, 2016 11:57 PM PDT

    No need, I want to find out what everyone thinks.  Besides, I think we are ultimately saying the same thing...that the devs have a clean slate and can make some meaningful changes by "rethinking" traditional models.

    The cool thing is, if I recall correctly, and I might not be because it's been a couple of years...I think Kilsin and Ceythos were two of the GM's/Devs that resurrected CoB in Vanguard when the game was entering its sunset years.  My guild was one that was allowed to run around with them and test some of the encounters.  They were awesome and anyone willing to put that much effort into that game at that time in its life, clearly has a passion for this stuff.  (If either of you read this...I was the one who made the suggestion to put "Works Couch" in the game somehow...and you made the guilds month when we saw what you did!)

    I'm sure they are trying to look how all aspects of the game can be improved and are happy to consider things that the community suggests.

    • 563 posts
    September 3, 2016 6:46 AM PDT

    I do like the notion of "guild level" that can be advanced through player contribution. I think having some way to keep track of how much each player has contributed could be a very helpful tool in trying to assign loot to people that deserve it the most for the work they have put into bettering their guild.

     

     

    A loot system I'm suprised I don't see mentioned more is the "suicide kings" loot method, I believe it was made by a guid with the same name back in vanilla WoW.

    How it works:

    There is a class specific list for each class with all members on it in the order they joined (initially to set it up in the begining maybe a roll to determine possition). When a piece of loot drops the top most present person on the list is asked if they want it. They can take the item if they desire and "suicide" down to the bottom of the list and everyone present moves up (skipping over non-present members who stay in their spot), or pass it to the next present person on the list and so on.

    There is a general raid list for items that are usable by multiple classes that works the same way (It would just be up to the leaders to not give a rogue a "staff of overwhelming mana" :P).

    I raided with this system and it felt very fair, there is no hording of points so someone that was in the guid for 2 years doesnt have a huge advantage over a newer member thats been attending raids regularly.

     

    example: Awesome cleric hammer drops. Cleric 1 doesnt want it and it passes to cleric 2 who takes it and suicides to the bottom;

    clerics:

    Cleric 1 (present)

    Cleric 2 (present)

    Cleric 3 (absent)

    Cleric 4 (absent)

    Cleric 5 (present)

    Becomes:

    Cleric 1 (present)

    Cleric 5 (present)

    Cleric 3 (absent)

    Cleric 4 (absent)

    Cleric 2 (present)

     

    I hope I explained it in an understandable way.


    This post was edited by Rachael at September 3, 2016 6:56 AM PDT
    • 1434 posts
    September 3, 2016 7:28 AM PDT

    I've been in guilds where we awarded DKP for more than just raiding. Anything that guild leadership deemed as important gave players DKP. Sometimes that meant defending our players leveling up from PvP. Sometimes that meant helping a new player with their epic. Sometimes it meant watching for important spawns. Players who donated materials or money to the guildbank for reagents were also awarded DKP. Basically any task that the guild thought would better the guild was at times awarded DKP. Even having players out killing rival guilds in PvP for the sake of guild pride and to give players incentive to stay active was at times worthy of DKP.

    I think DKP is the best system, but only if you make sure that players aren't able to game it by only logging on for raids.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at September 3, 2016 7:32 AM PDT
    • 105 posts
    September 3, 2016 7:37 AM PDT

    I'm sure each individual guild will make its own decisions on how to distribute loot, be that DKP or whatever system they come up with. As long as VR give us some simple tools to distribute loot as we see fit then I would rather they spend their time in other areas than trying to integrate loot systems into the game which may or may not be used.

    My old guild used to run a DKP system which was recorded on a spreadsheet which was hosted on our website. Everyone had viewing access so we could all see what the situation was and it was updated by the officers after raids...

    • 96 posts
    September 3, 2016 7:44 AM PDT

    I've mainly raided with the DKP and random methods listed above.  While I wasn't always the class/archetype leader in DKP in my EQ guild, I did often pass over what would have been minor upgrades for me in order to give newer/less frequently raiding members a major upgrade.  Actually, my class typically discussed loot in our channel, and while we used DKP in the guild, it was more of a council decision for Enc loot.  I understand that this unfortunately isn't the norm, though...

     

    I do like the suicide method you described, Rachael.  It looks to both reward high rates of attendance, and encourage someone to not take every minor upgrade that comes along...and while someone who can't make every raid may never get to the top of the list, there is a good chance that circumstances will conspire to allow them to loot something, some time.   

    • 166 posts
    September 3, 2016 8:32 AM PDT

    @Rachael, I think your have a typo in your second list. It should be cleric 1, 3, 4, 5, 2

    To find the best way to share the loot between the players is not really easy.

    One important thing is to keep the whole raid more or less to an identical item level. If this is guaranted, then it's most possible, that the raid is making good progress. And it prevents better geared players from taking raid pauses, because their item level is to far away from the ohters. This would even help to equip a new raid member quicker, because you will ever have player fluctuation. The new members get nearly every loot from the lower level raid bosses, because all other have a item level which makes them need item beginning with e. g. the 6. boss.

    Second thing is, it must be fair. This means that if someone needs and item and have contributed more for the raid than another then he should get the item. Here I see DKP in charge, maybe as Dullahan said not only raid DKP but DKP for different kind of support for the raid. It's a way to motivate the members of the raid to participate in it or to participate in the preparation for it, e. g. farming buffs, etc.

    Maybe a small part should be something like a loot council. And this is going a bit in the direction of keeping the raid on an identical item level. In some cases they should take influecnce on the process of sharing the loot. If the new item is only a very small improvement for cleric 1 but a very huge for cleric 2, then maybe it would be a good decision to give this item to cleric 2.

    All together every guild should find its own fitting way for sharing items between their raid members. As long as they are having fun in playing the game, it is fine. For me what I stated above need to be taken into account for the sharing of the items to be fun. It is not an easy thing to bring "rewarding contributing players" and "keeping the raid on an identical level" under one hat, but if the raid (leader) could manage this, then in my opinion it would be the most fun for the players.

     

    • 15 posts
    September 3, 2016 8:35 AM PDT

    Thanks folks for the replies.  I too like the suicide method that Rachael described.

    I also like the modified DKP system Dullahan described.  

    Most of the guilds I have been in used the standard DKP system, which, in addition to being a PITA for the guild officers to have to update multiple times a week, had some other real issues.  I distinctly recall a situation where my guild discovered that one of our DKP point leaders was actually spending a good amount of his game time playing an alt in a different guild.  Guild leadership didn't know how to address it, so they confronted him, he /guildquit and then had that toon join the other guild as well.  Basically we just geared him up with top tier stuff for another guild.

    I agree with Garper that I would not want the devs spending a ton of time on this if it is optional anyway.  I am not a programmer so I do not know what all is involved, but I would imagine that the devs have already resigned to the fact that they will have AA in the game at some point...if not at launch, then in the future, and that they are laying that foundation.  I would hope that the guild AA system that I described wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

    To be honest, I also have issues with the system that I described as well which is why I opened this post.  Ultimately, I would love to see a system that has the following criteria...

    1) easily implemented for the devs and easily, even automatically, updated for guild leadership.

    2) merit-based on more than just showing up for raids.  Takes into account the contributions of diplos, harvesters and crafters.

    3) has no potential for leadership to play favorites.

    The suicide model certainly takes care of #1 and #3, but im not sure addresses #2.

    The modified DKP system takes care of #2, but im not sure addresses #1 and #3.  The guild leaders could still assign differnent amounts of DKP for their favorites.

    Admittedly, the guild experience contribution model I described also could be open for guild leadership to play favorites.  They could look at who the leaders are in experience contributions and almost design a custom raid to gear a particular member.  

    I have never been in a guild that used either of the systems that Rachael or Dullahan described.  They are both a heck of a lot better than the vanilla systems we have seen.   I might also just be hypersensitive to how folks feel when loot is assigned, but I would love to see a system where even the newest members of the guild feel like their contributions to the guild are meaningful and perhaps they also have a descent chance at getting a good piece of gear.  It can be terribly discouraging if not.

    • 194 posts
    September 3, 2016 8:44 AM PDT

    Garper said:

    I'm sure each individual guild will make its own decisions on how to distribute loot, be that DKP or whatever system they come up with. As long as VR give us some simple tools to distribute loot as we see fit then I would rather they spend their time in other areas than trying to integrate loot systems into the game which may or may not be used.

     

    I agree.  Every guild I've been in handled things differently, even guilds that used the same general system usually had a very different implementation of it.  Aside from providing the tools for distributing loot, and maybe some very basic tools for recording dkp or attendance, I think it's best that the details and implementation for loot distribution be left to the individual guilds.

     

    Dullahan said:

    I've been in guilds where we awarded DKP for more than just raiding. Anything that guild leadership deemed as important gave players DKP.

    Personally, I prefer DKP to other loot distribution systems, and if it's deemed that out-of-raid activities are importanant enough to warrant compensation, then I think this is the way to go.  Every guild is going to be different, based on their point in progression, attendance rules and what-not.  Trying to hard-code a loot system that works for everyone would probably create far more problems that it would fix.  The better-run guilds that I've been in have made tweaks to their loot system when it was needed--if loot distribution was being handled with all in-game tools, that sort of flexibility probably wouldn't be possible.

     

    • 563 posts
    September 3, 2016 9:00 AM PDT

    Elrandir said:

     

    ...  Trying to hard-code a loot system that works for everyone would probably create far more problems that it would fix.  The better-run guilds that I've been in have made tweaks to their loot system when it was needed--if loot distribution was being handled with all in-game tools, that sort of flexibility probably wouldn't be possible.

     

    I agree, I think raid loot systems should be left to something out of game, be it a spread sheet or a simple program to keep track of stuff is best. As you said most guild have their own variation of any given system that works best for them and it would be best to leave it to something 3rd party to keep track of. I wonder if VR will allow any add-ons to keep track of this type of thing in game, that would be nice.


    This post was edited by Rachael at September 3, 2016 9:03 AM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    September 3, 2016 9:09 AM PDT

    I also like the suicide method, it seems really easy to implement. But I think DKP may not be able to be hard coded into the game but instead be up to each guilds discretion. However, something like an attendance list you can pull from the log files on your PC after the fact would help speed this up.

    I was part of a group that ahd a very sophisticated DKP system that worked real well, no guild, just people in guilds or not in guilds that wanted to raid and get epics- it started just as that- non guilded people that wanted to get epics, an "all for one" kind of thing. It naturally begat loyalty. It even included a ways for newer members to be able to spend some DKP by going negative- to be honest it was really close to the Disney Vacation Club program in the manner points were spent or saved. This also happend to weed out the curious but reward the consistent.

    • 1778 posts
    September 3, 2016 9:33 AM PDT

    My Linkshell used the wishlist system. You sign up for one item at a time per endgame event/zone.  And until it drops, you cant sign up for another. If you arent there that night it goes to next person in line, but back to you next time. Its first come first serve on the lists for sign up. When you did get your item you could sign up for the next but you would go to the bottom of that list. You could change your mind, but again go to the bottom of the list. The wish list applied to leaders as well. In this system points and attendence wasnt really a thing, though we did watch for suspicious behavior like only showing up after weeks of not showing up because you were at top of the list. We had a 3 strikes and your out tolerance on drama as well. Most people loved the system, and we only ever had problems with 3 people I think. And 2 of them straightened up, the 3rd was punted from the Linkshell eventually.

     

    P.S. I dont like Loot Councils or DKP system or Veteran systems either.

    • 999 posts
    September 3, 2016 2:55 PM PDT

    Agreed with Garper.  And, since guilds typically create their own version of a DKP system, it also feeds into Dullahan's point that some guilds may award DKP for epic quest bosses or something similar outside of a traditional raid boss. 

    • 23 posts
    September 4, 2016 12:42 PM PDT

    Another nice thing with Suicide Kings loot system is that you can reward alternates that show up and are ready to go regularly by letting them move up the list as if they are running with the raid so the few times they do get to go they will have a shot at getting something nice. You can also punish some regular members that may be consitently late or doing things that wipe the raid by moving them a slot or two down the list. There are also a couple of nice websites that have been made for tracking Suicide Kings lists and are actually quite easy to set-up and update as you go.

    • 173 posts
    September 4, 2016 4:16 PM PDT

    Asside from some tools to track different things, be it points or whatnot I feel it should be left to the guild to determine how to distribute loot.  In reality there simply is no loot sytem that cannot be manipulated.  Loot is just something that will be an issue no matter what.  Everybody has different ideas on how it should be done and finding a consesus is just about impossible.  Let the players figure it out for themselves.

    • 1 posts
    September 4, 2016 5:22 PM PDT

    This part of the game has always been my least favorite part. The best guilds that I participated in were smaller guilds. They felt like a family. I also remember having to leave them in order to join a power guild in order to do the highest raiding. Then that is where I felt detached because I was just a number. With that said It would be cool if they would make a member cap to guilds to throw in a little bit of a twist. Lastly I hope that Pantheon developers stay true to the old school roots and don't design the game around players wants. Keep it hardcore.

    • 23 posts
    September 4, 2016 6:42 PM PDT

    Deecon said:

    With that said It would be cool if they would make a member cap to guilds to throw in a little bit of a twist.

     

    Please no member cap for guilds; that is a huge detriment to guilds that are part of a large gaming community because then they have to spread their members across multiple guilds in game, and it makes it just makes it difficult for everyone. Right now I am playing a game that is capped at 100 members and we are spread across 4 guilds. Trying to get things organized for all four guilds to get together is a logistical nightmare for the officers. I can see and fully support capping raids, but please no caps on guilds themselves.

    • 62 posts
    September 5, 2016 9:03 PM PDT

    Landbert said:

    @Rachael, I think your have a typo in your second list. It should be cleric 1, 3, 4, 5, 2

    The order is correct in the second list. Characters who are present get moved up past absent members. 3 and 4 are held in place while they remain absent, as it would not make sense to have them loot something they aren't there to claim, nor to move up until they attend.

    • 200 posts
    December 6, 2016 6:55 AM PST

    Pros and Cons of each systems stack up, and ultimately the Raid Schedule, Loot system and personalities will create the right fit for a gamer in a guild.

     

    Suicide king methods - Orderly approach to it, but once you suicide down it generates the opportunity to skip a few raid days until you are back up top and still get loot.. if you augmented it with an attendance requirement to be moved back up the list that may help thward the inevitable attendance gaps that get created otherwise.

    DKP - Systems can get hyper-inflatted and broken to allow only the senior of senior members to get loot, or only game when the DKP system rewards them to.  I've had the most success in games with this system myself, however if you don't decay DKP or have it be a bidding system to create opportunities to spend more than you earn, you will almost certainly over compensate your system.

    Sum-Zero DKP - A small flavor of DKP that I have never been in a guild that utilizes.  Zero-sum DKP means that DKP is distributed based on the value of items that drop. All members in a zero-sum DKP start with a score of 0. When an item is given to a raid member, they have to pay for it in DKP (going negative if necessary). These DKP spent are immediately distributed among all the raid members. Thus the amount of DKP, i.e. the sum of all members in the system, is always zero. The idea here is that inflation is impossible, since no points enter the system from the outside, however long term members who never loot can still "break" it.

     

    Loot councils - Always a subjective arguement that gives every loot the opportunity to split a guild to its core. There is almost always a misunderstanding involved that gives every guildmate the capability to get sour grapes unless the discussion for awarding is viewable for all..which usually isn't the case. (can you tell my opinion here).  Attendance, Last Loot, quality of upgrade...OMG I like them more.....or they pissed me off so I will not let them get loots for aaaages....

     


    This post was edited by Warben at December 6, 2016 7:23 AM PST
    • 232 posts
    December 6, 2016 7:24 AM PST

    Dullahan said:

    I've been in guilds where we awarded DKP for more than just raiding. Anything that guild leadership deemed as important gave players DKP. Sometimes that meant defending our players leveling up from PvP. Sometimes that meant helping a new player with their epic. Sometimes it meant watching for important spawns. Players who donated materials or money to the guildbank for reagents were also awarded DKP. Basically any task that the guild thought would better the guild was at times awarded DKP. Even having players out killing rival guilds in PvP for the sake of guild pride and to give players incentive to stay active was at times worthy of DKP.

    I think DKP is the best system, but only if you make sure that players aren't able to game it by only logging on for raids.

    I completely agree with this.

    This changes the focus from "attend raids, better yourself" to "better the guild, better yourself".  I've been in guilds with this kind of extended DKP system, where DKP was awarded for raiding AND a whole host of other activities that helped the guild.  Besides loot distribution, this system came with some great side-effects. There was a shared sense of pride and belonging with this system that helped reduced guild turnover.  Members felt more invested. We worked toward shared guild goals rather than focusing soley on having perfect individual raid attendance.

    • 428 posts
    December 6, 2016 9:26 AM PST

    Dekaden said:

    Dullahan said:

    I've been in guilds where we awarded DKP for more than just raiding. Anything that guild leadership deemed as important gave players DKP. Sometimes that meant defending our players leveling up from PvP. Sometimes that meant helping a new player with their epic. Sometimes it meant watching for important spawns. Players who donated materials or money to the guildbank for reagents were also awarded DKP. Basically any task that the guild thought would better the guild was at times awarded DKP. Even having players out killing rival guilds in PvP for the sake of guild pride and to give players incentive to stay active was at times worthy of DKP.

    I think DKP is the best system, but only if you make sure that players aren't able to game it by only logging on for raids.

    I completely agree with this.

    This changes the focus from "attend raids, better yourself" to "better the guild, better yourself".  I've been in guilds with this kind of extended DKP system, where DKP was awarded for raiding AND a whole host of other activities that helped the guild.  Besides loot distribution, this system came with some great side-effects. There was a shared sense of pride and belonging with this system that helped reduced guild turnover.  Members felt more invested. We worked toward shared guild goals rather than focusing soley on having perfect individual raid attendance.

    We did this in our raiding guild on a PVP server.  In EQ2 we had 24 man raids but always had at least 40 players online for raiding.  If people stayed logged in but didnt raid they got DKP as well  This way they would form groups and go farm spells or some rare piece of gear  Or if we had enough the lesser raid force was allowed to raid lesser content ot content we had decided to skip as an organized raid event.  Rewarding for PVP and riad PVP blocking forces was also a thing.  The DKP money maker was everytime we wiped an enemy guild on a contested everyone invovled got 1 DKP for it.

    it worked great and we loved having 40 or 50 players online while raiding just in case we needed to change up group makeups for certain mobs.

    • 172 posts
    December 7, 2016 2:11 AM PST

    Dullahan said:

    I've been in guilds where we awarded DKP for more than just raiding. Anything that guild leadership deemed as important gave players DKP. Sometimes that meant defending our players leveling up from PvP. Sometimes that meant helping a new player with their epic. Sometimes it meant watching for important spawns. Players who donated materials or money to the guildbank for reagents were also awarded DKP. Basically any task that the guild thought would better the guild was at times awarded DKP. Even having players out killing rival guilds in PvP for the sake of guild pride and to give players incentive to stay active was at times worthy of DKP.

    I think DKP is the best system, but only if you make sure that players aren't able to game it by only logging on for raids.

    In regards to DKP or how raid loot is assesed i do like the idea that more than just "raiding" goes into the DKP you earn.  So with that being said at this point i think we can also consider your DKP being your "worth" to the guild and its progression.  There is a lot more that goes in to a guild than just completing the raid, someone mentioned earlier about how crafters may feel under-appreciated for the work they do, or someone who is on an hour early before the raid helping strategize opposed to your main tank that shows up half drunk 5 minutes before you start... or what have you.

    I think a lot of it doesnt necessarily boil down to just the point system, but also the leadership and how they decide to award those points and asses your value to the raid and the guild overall. 

    To me if you take a guild at face value, its basically a business.. and what that business is trying to do is create successful communities for raids and completed content to gain the most out their time and effort.. I think a lot of what needs to be determined here is the value you bring to the guild overall and what youve done to make the raid successful, not just showing up and having the best gear for the raid..

    What do you bring to the table other than just showing up 5 minutes before the raid half drunk and youre the main tank because youre just best geared.  Does that entitle you to the shield of awesome-sauce? perhaps.. however i believe that goes back to leadership and what they find to be valuable to the success.  

    For instance, is your main tank also someone who crafts endlessly and they provide consumables for the raid on a raid to raid bases and you help lower level guildies advance through the game through means of protection, crafting, PLing etc. ? or do they just main tank? i think its up to whoever is running the show to determine that.

    My main point here and that is that there should be more considered in the "value" you bring the guild to further your advancement than just showing up.. because i can just show up to work everyday, but why should i be awarded for just showing up and doing what im supposed to do? that sounds like a participation trophy to me. So maybe its not our point system we have to re-evaluate more so than it is how we actually run our guilds? and i may be totally off track here, but just my 5 cents.


    This post was edited by Aayden at December 7, 2016 2:58 AM PST