Although periphery to the main content and game mechanics, quality of life features can make a big impact in subtle ways. With the years that have gone by with many of us experimenting with different MMOs, I'd like to start a discussion around the quality of life features we might like to see in Pantheon that other games got right. Open to discussion and disagreement as well, I'd love to see differing opinions if there are some!
Here are the ones that I'd consider must-haves:
There are a few qualifications that I would add to this list.
If dyes are included, there should be some armor/weapons that cannot be dyed. An epic should be an epic, and any armor that is a named set should a) not be modifiable or b) have some of the details be modifiable, but overall still retain the look of the undyed armor.
Also, the ability to toggle if you will allow people to inspect you.
ladyshaiana said:Yes to all of this, especially with ability to sell all grey loot, and deposit all crafting materials!
Also a shared bank for alts would be nice too.
Shared bank would be super beneficial, and I also wouldn't be opposed to a shared wallet, either, but am more ambivalent about that.
Irriaden said:There are a few qualifications that I would add to this list.
If dyes are included, there should be some armor/weapons that cannot be dyed. An epic should be an epic, and any armor that is a named set should a) not be modifiable or b) have some of the details be modifiable, but overall still retain the look of the undyed armor.
Also, the ability to toggle if you will allow people to inspect you.
I agree! Inspect toggle is a great idea, options are always better than it being forced one way or another. I also agree regarding weapon and amor dyes, some things shouldn't be dyed. Named armor sets should be limited in what details you can dye, with some not modifiable at all.
Overall, good qualifications to keep in mind.
Pretty neat ideas. I would like anything that make crafting a bit easier - so as crafting material slot / bank like you suggested. Also, I have seen a few games where you can pin & track recipes that you are trying to complet. It make it a lot more easier when you search through vendors for items to see how much materials you need to complet one recipes.
darcius said:Pretty neat ideas. I would like anything that make crafting a bit easier - so as crafting material slot / bank like you suggested. Also, I have seen a few games where you can pin & track recipes that you are trying to complet. It make it a lot more easier when you search through vendors for items to see how much materials you need to complet one recipes.
Crafting stations (forges, alchemy tables, engraving desks, etc.) found in the city being directly tied to your materials bank would make crafting much easier. No running back and forth between the bank and crafting stations.
coach said:I never liked the idea of dyes/skins, part of looking 'cool' is earning it. You shouldn't be able to dye/skin your Toyota into a monster truck or Lamborghini. The other stuff sounds good.
I can understand that position! I think some of the dye implementations in other games can be a little too excessive, and when I imagine a system done right I view it more as putting a fresh coat of paint on your Toyota or fixing mismatched panels vs trying to morph it into a Lamborghini. I think the palette choices are critical for this, i.e. perhaps no over-the-top bright colours or special effects or whatever.
In my mind it's not something that is necessarily cheap, either. You have to really justify spending the gold to make it happen, but allows you keep a coherent colour theme when you have a set of armor that works well for you, or to customize some of the minor details just enough that you're not looking identical to every other person of the same class wearing the same armor (e.g. if I have an armor piece with a scarf, I could dye the scarf a different color and perhaps the other cloth/leather sections in my chainmail).
Koreno said:
- Weapon & armor previews— ability to right click and select "preview" on gear to see how that item looks on your character
- Agree
- Weapon & armor dyes— greater diversity and customizability is always a positive in RPG games, especially MMORPGs
- Disagree. I like the direction Brad mentioned in his AMA. The default appearence or weapons and armor should give a visual indication of ones accomplishments. This is the main reason they are staying away from appearance items that let you look anyway you want no matter what you are wearing.
- Materials bank— bank tab that exists for crafting materials with "deposit all materials" button
- I like this.
- Materials bags— ability to acquire/craft special bags that automatically aggregate materials when they're collected
- I like how EQ2 handles this. You had 6 inventory bags. And you placed filters on each bag so when you aquired an item is when directly in the bag with that filter.
- Sell junk button— if there will be items that are clearly junk, implement a "sell all junk" button when interacting with merchants
- Agree
- Copyable chat text— self-explanatory
- If this is so you can save a message in your clipboard to repeat a WTS or WTB message, this would be better done with a chat macro.
- Clickable in-chat links— self-explanatory
- DEFENATLY!!!
- Chat bubbles— option to turn chat bubbles on
- /who feature— ability to use /who to see who is in a zone or how many players are in that zone
- This is a standard chat command in almost every MMO ive played.
- Effective item compare feature— when hovering over items, compare to what is currently equipped regardless of whether you're looting a mob, looking in inventory, bank tab, merchant, etc.
- Oh yes.
- Inspect option— ability to right click another player and select "inspect" to see what items they're using
- I like this but I also want the ability to disallow athers to inspect me.
- Biography section— ability to write a little biography that is seen when others inspect you, useful for other things like crafters who can advertise what they can make
Good post and I agree to most of the list above. Still on the fence on the dye. I would think this impacts crafting or limits it to an extent. Something to think about for sure
Good post and great discussion!
Ox
I have not seen this mentioned as of yet, but having a seperate designated quest item inventory would be great! If it's a quest item, have it auto thrown into this separate inventory bar and not have it counted as regular inventory.
There have been a few games as well where it would have an icon appear in the quest log to use that item when appropriate. I always found that so handy!
ladyshaiana said:I have not seen this mentioned as of yet, but having a seperate designated quest item inventory would be great! If it's a quest item, have it auto thrown into this separate inventory bar and not have it counted as regular inventory.
There have been a few games as well where it would have an icon appear in the quest log to use that item when appropriate. I always found that so handy!
Since Pantheon is to be less 'hand-holdy' rather than a 'quest log' a:
PERSONAL JOURNAL: Linked on UI, probably doesn't count as inventory item.
The kind of journal made by explorers in the past!
Any pieces of paper (eg newbie starter note) allow right-click+copy-to-journal option. This puts date stamp (by default) and a picture of the note/paper into your Journal.
Quest text can be 'copied' into journal.
Any block of text can be 'copied in' (limit on how often)
(hopefully) Can enter text directly into the Journal
** Nice option: open a 'paint' window so people can make a sketch for the journal. Draw maps, rough out an attack plan.
** Nice option: Method of saving Journal locally, or pringing it off
** Nice option: 'Show' page of journal in a 'trade window'
This allows people to track quests (but NOT like a hand-holdy WoW 'quest tracker') or any information they want. They might make notes of recipes. They might draw maps. They might roughout an attack plan for a raid. Perhaps they just write a daily journal? Would be a bit of an undertaking to get right - but would have massive benefit to nearly all social aspects, particularly to RP.
Koreno said:
- Weapon & armor dyes— greater diversity and customizability is always a positive in RPG games, especially MMORPGs
- Disagree. I like the direction Brad mentioned in his AMA. The default appearence or weapons and armor should give a visual indication of ones accomplishments. This is the main reason they are staying away from appearance items that let you look anyway you want no matter what you are wearing.
I agree with Koreno (and Brad) on this one. If dyes are implemented, however, it will not be a huge deal to me. One thing I cannot stand is transmog. I pray that mogging is not introduced to Pantheon.
Not one single "do all" button. For example, when I am in a dangerous place and I kill a mob, it needs to be risky for me to go to the corpse and rifle through their pockets and loot their stuff, piece by piece. The sheer terror of sitting there one-by-one clicking and looting items made the game seem real. Having a dumbed-down, instant-gratification button that magically loots all or drops all, is just another example.
Seriously, most folks clamoring for that type of thing, under the guise of "convenience and annoyance-avoidance" really don't want a virtual world to live in - they want to log in, mash buttons and kill things and every single immersion thing that gets in the way of that is decried as "wrong".
And good God, chat bubbles are the worst cartoon nonsense ever.
In 1999/2000 EQ did everything right. Everything. It wasn't about being easy and convenient. It was about being an immersive world to live in.
As for the incredibly flawed argument "make that a user preference and you can just turn it off": that's absurd - as soon as you do that then whole world has different scales of progression and experiences. For example a "loot all" button, yes of course I could force myself to loot things one at a time, but if other players are not doing the same, then they progress at a pace and I can't keep up. And if their goal is to hurry their progression, again, they are button mashers.
I hate the armor dyes and ornamentations. A lot of the goal-questing is to get something that looks cool (firey avenger for example) - having everyone have infinite styles just makes this a cartoon.
These whole topics grealy discourage me because it reminds me of the population that ruined the MMORPG genre....
fazool said:Not one single "do all" button. For example, when I am in a dangerous place and I kill a mob, it needs to be risky for me to go to the corpse and rifle through their pockets and loot their stuff, piece by piece. The sheer terror of sitting there one-by-one clicking and looting items made the game seem real. Having a dumbed-down, instant-gratification button that magically loots all or drops all, is just another example.
Seriously, most folks clamoring for that type of thing, under the guise of "convenience and annoyance-avoidance" really don't want a virtual world to live in - they want to log in, mash buttons and kill things and every single immersion thing that gets in the way of that is decried as "wrong".
And good God, chat bubbles are the worst cartoon nnonsense ever.
In 1999/2000 EQ did everything right. Everything. It wasn't about being easy and convenient. It was about being an immersive world to live in.
As for the incredibly flawed argument "make that a user preference and you can just turn it off": that's absurd - as soon as you do that then whole world has different scales of progression and experiences. For example a "loot all" button, yes of course I could force myself to loot things one at a time, but if other players are not doing the same, then they progress at a pace and I can't keep up. And if their goal is to hurry their progression, again, they are button mashers.
I hate the armor dyes and ornamentations. A lot of the goal-questing is to get something that lkooks cool (firing avenger for example) - having everyone have infinite styles just makes this a cartoon.
These whole topics grealy discourage me because it reminds me of the population that ruined the MMORPG genre....
I agree with you 100%
My biggest worry is
'The Law of unintended consequences' (a.k.a 'The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions')
These are EQ examples .... but apply to many many games!
1. There is a 'minimum movement speed' implemented to 'help' poeple carrying a bit too much etc
Result : Abuse of the system by people who carry not +10% above max... but going to +10,000% above max. In worst cases, people loading up a newly minted alt mule, putting a million x max load and they getting killed on purpose so they can just drag the corpse to use as a portable container. Leave 1 copper on the body and it can be used for the return trip too!
2. Ability to 'bind' to any point you need ... to avoid having to have fixed bind points
Result: Blacksmith Wizzies/Druids binding themselves at either Bank or Forge so they can craft a monstrous weight in gear and just TP back to drop off.
3. Rule on PvP servers to protect newbie characters for first 5 levels.
Result: google 'EQ fansy bard 25 SandGiant Train'
So, please, before you get too insistent on a new 'ease of use' mechanic, try to imagine ... 'how could I abuse this easily?'
Eg: (Ease of Use) = Bank crafting tab accessible at crafting stations
Possible abuse = destruction of 'local markets'. At crafting station in Qeynos - check market value for certain items - pick pick one that sells well here and make them - using components that are in the bank at Kaladim. We have now made the world much smaller. 'Travel time' is diminished for goods and so value decreased, dmagaing the economy.
... and so on.
After following this thread and considering it for a while, I want to elaborate on my earlier post.
I don't mind 'minor' armor mods...say making the normally blue stripe on your shield red instead. Making your entire outfit a bright puke green, or making your level 5 armor look like something bad*** that it isn't, no! And, no reskinning...But I would be perfectly happy if dyes etc were not in the game whatsoever.
Inspect...whatever, as long as I can prevent people from inspecting me. A cloak wrapped around armor could do the same IRL, so if inspect is implemented this should definitely be an option! Besides, if these item renaming tickets that some people are getting in their pledge packs work the way I think they do, inspect could be rendered pointless anyways...
Man I hate chat bubbles, they get in the way of viewing the game IMO! But if you don't want to be able to see what's going on around you, by all means turn them on. Just have them off by default! I just don't want to have someone pull the group of 5 mobs around the corner because their view was obsucred by a text bubble.
I definitely agree about all of the 'do it all' type buttons, whether selling junk or banking, etc. It takes time to go through all of your stuff, but if you take the time to organize it you know just where everything is and can get through it just fine.
I don't see any issues with something like an herb pouch. However, if you want to go the direction of mining/ore, I don't see the immersion of an 'ore pouch' either. Maybe an 'ore cart' as a vehichle, if you really want to go realistic...but at some point you have to make a decision between realism and accessibility, and it might just be better to stick with general inventory.
Copiable chat text, I don't see the harm in that
Chat links...please no, the last thing I want, or the game needs, is some idiot spamming a virus/clickbait/trojan/porn/etc link disguised behind a URL shortener in chat
Biography section - sure, I don't know that I would use it personally, but why not?
Item compare feature - I could go both ways on this one. It's definitly convenient to not have to constanly mouse back and forth over multiple windows to compare stats. But, I don't see it as truely needed either. What I would not want to see if this feature is included would be an 'Item Level' or 'Item Rank' number.
These whole topics grealy discourage me because it reminds me of the population that ruined the MMORPG genre....
While I understand and agree with this on a certain level, I do think it's better to bring them up while Pantheon is still in development and our opinions/arguements can make a difference, than to see these things included once the game is released and not be able to do anything. It's probably better, no matter how distasteful you find an idea, to air it out in the open and present your opinion/arguements. The same goes for things you would love to be added, make sure you present them!
My biggest worry is
'The Law of unintended consequences' (a.k.a 'The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions')
That is also a very good point!
Mostly agree..
Instead of chat bubbles, the game should put a tiny indicator above a character when they speak.. mebe purple T for when they /tell you.. a blue G for when they speak in /group.. etc. These will indicate you to check your chat box for a messege. This of course should be an on/off option. .. and this is much better than a chat bubble blocking your view every two seconds.
Second.. these type of games dont have 'grey' loot. Loot is either usable by you as gear or in a quest, or usable to someone else as gear or in a quest. I dont remember ever selling an item to a merchant in EQ without diliberating if it was worthwhile to auction it to anotehr player.. and thats the way it should be. The Diablo way of randomizing loot, and therefore requiring the game to have grey/trash, just doesnt make sense in a community based MMORPG.
Love idea of allowing someone to preview how an item will look on their character before looting. I'm another person 100% against dyes. For the people who dont want to look like a rainbow, they can choose to avoid certain items thanks to item previews. But if you want to look awesome, you should be motivated to seek out the gear in the world that is an upgrade and also looks how you want.. as opoosed to using dyes.
fazool said:Not one single "do all" button. For example, when I am in a dangerous place and I kill a mob, it needs to be risky for me to go to the corpse and rifle through their pockets and loot their stuff, piece by piece. The sheer terror of sitting there one-by-one clicking and looting items made the game seem real. Having a dumbed-down, instant-gratification button that magically loots all or drops all, is just another example.
Seriously, most folks clamoring for that type of thing, under the guise of "convenience and annoyance-avoidance" really don't want a virtual world to live in - they want to log in, mash buttons and kill things and every single immersion thing that gets in the way of that is decried as "wrong".
And good God, chat bubbles are the worst cartoon nonsense ever.
In 1999/2000 EQ did everything right. Everything. It wasn't about being easy and convenient. It was about being an immersive world to live in.
As for the incredibly flawed argument "make that a user preference and you can just turn it off": that's absurd - as soon as you do that then whole world has different scales of progression and experiences. For example a "loot all" button, yes of course I could force myself to loot things one at a time, but if other players are not doing the same, then they progress at a pace and I can't keep up. And if their goal is to hurry their progression, again, they are button mashers.
I hate the armor dyes and ornamentations. A lot of the goal-questing is to get something that looks cool (firey avenger for example) - having everyone have infinite styles just makes this a cartoon.
These whole topics grealy discourage me because it reminds me of the population that ruined the MMORPG genre....
I have to agree. These features are good for your "theme-park" games where you are racing to the end game to discover there really isn't any "end-game". I know I will complain about it but it would make you think of what you should carry, loot or drop more carefully. Plus, if there will be weight limit/penality, then you shouldn't be able to carry all of this stuff. You shouldn't "magically" have access to your bank when crafting at the craft stations, etc.
I do have to admit that I found some really cool features created in Archeage that I can see Pantheon using: Housing with ability to farm your nodes, court/jury system for PvP servers, Mounts allowing 2 players to ride (best feature ever!!!!), naval ships and features were really cool, and the "Trade" system to make money.
Archeage, EQ1 and LOTRO were the few games I played for a long time and really enjoyed the games.
Evoras said:My biggest worry is
'The Law of unintended consequences' (a.k.a 'The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions')
These are EQ examples .... but apply to many many games!
1. There is a 'minimum movement speed' implemented to 'help' poeple carrying a bit too much etc
Result : Abuse of the system by people who carry not +10% above max... but going to +10,000% above max. In worst cases, people loading up a newly minted alt mule, putting a million x max load and they getting killed on purpose so they can just drag the corpse to use as a portable container. Leave 1 copper on the body and it can be used for the return trip too!
2. Ability to 'bind' to any point you need ... to avoid having to have fixed bind points
Result: Blacksmith Wizzies/Druids binding themselves at either Bank or Forge so they can craft a monstrous weight in gear and just TP back to drop off.
3. Rule on PvP servers to protect newbie characters for first 5 levels.
Result: google 'EQ fansy bard 25 SandGiant Train'
So, please, before you get too insistent on a new 'ease of use' mechanic, try to imagine ... 'how could I abuse this easily?'
Eg: (Ease of Use) = Bank crafting tab accessible at crafting stations
Possible abuse = destruction of 'local markets'. At crafting station in Qeynos - check market value for certain items - pick pick one that sells well here and make them - using components that are in the bank at Kaladim. We have now made the world much smaller. 'Travel time' is diminished for goods and so value decreased, dmagaing the economy.
... and so on.
If you really wish to not have things in game that "can be abused" let's add some more:
1. Chat system. I think we've all seen it used in inapropriate ways.
2. Loot system. Arguably the biggest source of bickering in any MMO. Weather you use an NBG system, master looter, DKP, or loot ladders any of them can and have been abused/manipulated.
3. Game currency. Becuase as with any currency in the real world and any game world it has been abused repeatedly.
That said, I do share your concerns about things being abused. However, to use a word in my admitedly odd mind that goes along with "The road to hell" phrase it would fanatacism. Once you start eliminated any and everything that can be abused before you know it there is simply no game at all left.
I just think that things like a "loot all" button aren't even close to immersion breaking, and that some of these preferences for the absence of them may be rooted in nostalgic feelings towards these older systems that were present in the games we first fell in love with. Nostalgia vs. true immersion. There are things we just have to suspend when it comes to these worlds, and some are more trivial than others. If we can suspend the belief that an orc can only drop armor pieces that would only properly fit other orcs, I think we can be okay with the convenience of a "loot all" button.