I wanna start a conversation or a little debate :3
Should there be a plenalty for completly draining your resources? I know in most MMOs, if you run out of stamina you can't walk. However what if the penalty was more severe like it would be in Anime's or in real life, where you need to take a break to automatically regenerate it or even mossible meditate like you do in Witcher 3 to regen health in higher difficultiy modes. I personally think this would add a whole nother level of immersion to the game and caution everyone from just willy nillying all the resources away in a bunch of combos and then kiting mobs till it regens. This would encourage people to buy mana pots, or whatever, and learn to conserve mana/resource efficently.
I was thinking of the anime Magi or even fairy tail, when you use up all your magoi/magic reserves you basically can't move for a while and are paralyized or feint and go into a little slumber.
Just an Idea. What do you guys think? Should there be a penalty? If so what should it be? Severe? Not too severe? Or none at all?
Just because others haven't done so doesn't mean we cannot have a discussion about the possibilty.
I look forwards to your responses :3
First off, I *would* be interested in seeing innovation in the way STA is used.
Unlike Mana, STA tends to be used merely for tracking 'running', 'sprinting' or other 'strenuous' activities. However, I do think there is *massive* scope for using an extension to the 'mana use' system to actually make fighting 'an effort'. Physical Combat should be considered 'strenuous'. Eg:
Combat COSTS: (using arbitrary values for STA)
Casting standard Spell ... uses 10 STA/tick
Short/Long Bow ... uses 20 STA/tick
Melee 1H ... uses 30 STA/tick
Melee 1H + Shield/OH ... uses 50 STA/tick
Melee 2H ... uses 65 STA/tick
Additionally what you are carrying may affect this...
Carrying 80% of max ... combat costs +05% STA
Carrying 90% of max ... combat costs +10% STA
Carrying 100% of max ... combat costs +25% STA
Carrying 110% of max ... combat costs +50% STA
Armour may impose a penalty in addition to pure 'weight'
Mana Status affects STA too ...
mana 50% or more ... no effect
mana 30% or less ... combat/activities costs +10% STA
mana 15% or less ... combat/activities costs +20% STA
mana 05% or less ... combat/activities costs +50% STA
Physical Status effects:
DRUNK .... combat/activities cost -15% STA
on AMPHETAMINES ... combat/activities cost -35% STA
BARESARK ... combat/activities cost -50% STA
What it would mean is
(i) have to consider how tired you are before running away...
(ii) if caster, do you also want to melee combat?
worth a thought?
I agree that stamina should enter the formula somewhere. Hard to give specifics because its the kind of thing that needs a lot of tweaking to get right. In EQ originally melee and jumping used your stamina. I believe heavier weapons drained you faster than others. It was something that was kind of done away with. You won't notice this as much on P99 because its a system they never got right but there was originally a good reason to get invigorated (pal/clr) or get a shaman's Acumen.
I like the idea personally. I always like the idea of player resources being limited. I think it would add a nice challange to the game. Similar to mana management on my cleric in EQ. If your not careful, you end up OOM, and back then it actually took time to regen so you really wanted to be careful and how quickly you used it.
EQ and EQ2 (initially) used to actually CARE about all the stats (Wis/Int/Str/Agi/Char) and it made for a better game. You had to decide - do I want a faster weapon with more damage at the expense of loosing STR and Agi? I really liked that about the game. I had gear in EQ that used to make people scrath their heads. My work friends told me I had no idea what I was doing etc...
... and then I mezz-locked all of lower Chardok. ALL of it - while they recovered from a raid whipe.
I like the idea of STA as the pure melee equivlent of mana. Disciplines/abilities which boost your damage output, defense, movement, or 'aggro' should cost something instead of simply being on a timer.
That said, I think running out of STA causing debuffs in damage, defense, movement, or aggro is a bit harsh... especially on movement. If you burn abilities in a tough situation hoping to kill the enemy, but you are just a little short, and now you cant move.. thats going to happen alot and cause many frustrating deaths.
I say.. let players have a baseline in these areas, determined by stats on equipment and weapons. Only spell debuffs can drop you below that base. You may then choose to use STA abilities to boost you temperarily above that base. Think of STA as a pool to boost you temporarily, but not hinder you of completely drained.
I think STA is an interesting idea, but I don't think that every ability should drain it, just classes that are dependant on that resource solely. I don't enjoy the idea of any abilities draining two resources unless you are sacarficing hp and resource for a specific abiltiy like a curse. I like the level of immersion that this could bring, however it would need to be implemented where it isn't unfair to those that don't understand the system completely. You don't want the player base to get mad and frustarted.
I am not sure how they plan on doing things yet, if ever class uses mana or willpower or spirit power or whatever they call, or if they all use different resources.
It seems like everyone is in agreement so far that Mana Management should be incorporiated to some level though! Which is very cool :^)
Happy to have:
Mana
1. Derived from (INT/WIS/spell-stats) + 'Skill Rank bonus for some skill'
2. Reduced as you use each spell.
3. Replenish from resting (slow) and Meditate (medium)
Fatigue (change from STA above)
1. Derived from STA + Racial Mod
2. Reduced in physical combat
3. Replenish from resting in combat (slow) and resting out of combat (medium)
Stamina
1. Derived from (CON/Phys-stats) + Race Mod + 'Body Building type skill bonus'
2. Reduced by (i) Loss of fatigue below 50% or 25% (ii) Running (iii) acrobatic feats
3. Replenished from resting out of combat (slow) with food/drink as supplement (inc to medium+).
So your caster will use 'mana' and tank uses 'fatigue' as the equivalent. Tank skills still have CD (much like spells do) but also have 'Fatigue' cost (same as mana cost for spells). Dropping too low (under 25%) levels for either fatigue or mana will affect your Stamina. Not massively - but enough to have 'impact'. Run to zero for mana *and* fatigue and you will have noticable impact on your stamina.
An idiot SK who runs OOM and uses all his fatigue plus is carrying 110% 'carry capacity' will find himself low on STA *and* have reduced run-speed.
PS: This would alos allow for the game to better balance Pally/SK compared to pure-tank. Thye need to manage their mana usage as well as fatigue levels. The tank merely need to manage his fatigue - but he has 'all his eggs in one basket' and so needs to monitor it carefully indeed.
- This is to say that 'instead of tank skills purely being CD (Cool down) based, there should be a physical equivalent of 'mana' - here i called it 'Fatigue'.
- There is no reason why spells cannot use up 'fatigue' as well ... though *far* less than physcal combat would.
Pretty sure you will find:
Pure Caster (Eg Mage/Wizzy/Enc) -
Mana used for 'spell cost', CD used to set minimum re-cast time
Don't generally engage in combat, but if they did - can auto-attack 24/7
Melee Hybrid (Eg Pally/SK/Ranger) -
Mana used for 'sepll costs', CD used for both spells and combat abilities.
If they don't use combat abilities (kick, taunts etc) they can combat 24/7 continually.
Pure Melee (Eg WAR) -
Do not have 'mana' at all. CD only for Combat Abilities
If they don't use combat abilities (kick, taunts etc) they can combat 24/7 continually.
So there is a certain disparity between:
casting spells (drains mana) and
engaging in combat (uses nothing, unless you use a 'special ability')
casters use mana with every spell if they decide to melee / jump / run / swim then stamina is used as well., Yes a caster is able to drain both :( Melee uses stamina with every swing / bash / jump / kick / swim, if they have an ability that they are able to cast with then yes they will have a mana bar and be able to drain mana as well. Yes, if you choose to drain all of your stamina then you do not stop all together but you will come to a walk if you are still above your strength limit. If you are encumbered then yes you will come to a complete stop but that has to do with stength not endurance.
Evoras said:Pretty sure you will find:
Pure Caster (Eg Mage/Wizzy/Enc) -
Mana used for 'spell cost', CD used to set minimum re-cast time
Don't generally engage in combat, but if they did - can auto-attack 24/7
Melee Hybrid (Eg Pally/SK/Ranger) -
Mana used for 'sepll costs', CD used for both spells and combat abilities.
If they don't use combat abilities (kick, taunts etc) they can combat 24/7 continually.
Pure Melee (Eg WAR) -
Do not have 'mana' at all. CD only for Combat Abilities
If they don't use combat abilities (kick, taunts etc) they can combat 24/7 continually.
So there is a certain disparity between:
casting spells (drains mana) and
engaging in combat (uses nothing, unless you use a 'special ability')
I realize this is pretty standard. But I got the impression from certain comments in the old forums (i think) that everyone would use mana for all abilities and hence the tie in with colored mana. I could have sworn they gave examples like a Bard using mana to perform songs instead of just a CD, or a Warrior using mana for abilities. Maybe Im just flatly wrong? Or maybe that was before the revamp of the games direction? If im honest Ill be happy to be wrong. It would mix it up more and offer more complecity in resource management.
ah! never saw old forums - so wouldnt know about that :)
I am only going on in-game footage from the 2 streams.
Didn't see from tank-eye-view, but when the wizzy was meleeing i didnt see any 'drop' in stats/bar.
PS: not sure i see the need to integrate 'coloured mana' into melee combat itself. Doesn't mean there are not items that use it etc - but don't see why/how it owuld affect a pure melee class.
Recovery from being injured
Small in-combat recoveries .For a melee character, successful blocks can cause the character to get adrenaline rush for a few seconds
Slightly boosting stamina regeneration during combat
For less noble classes like the thief,the minor boost could come from crouch mode
Caster's mana regen is also class dependent
Monks,summoner,rangers,paladin,warrior,druid,cleric,bards will have personality that causes MP to rise
While wizards,shaman,necromancers,dire lords,enchanters will have intelligence that causes MP to rise
Based on the type of caster ,some of the longer channel abilities can give a slight boost to MP regeneration during combat
The personality dependent classes gain it by channel abilities/longer cast actions linked to charisma
The intelligence based classes gain it by channel abilities/longer cast actions linked to insight and inspiration
Charisma and insight/inspiration is affect by how tired a character is ,which brings me to:
Recovery from being tired
When tired,there are penalties to both physical and magical attacks and the cost of actions
Haste might be a spell that lets you attack faster ,but it also greatly reduces recovery time and leaves you tired
Actions while moving will double recovery when tired
Being tired also has an increased chance for actions to miss and/or fail
Recovery from being weak
Encounters gain opportunity against you and crit chances against you are increased
Once you run out of stamina, HP will be consumed,food is needed
Food supplies are needed to set up camp
A camp can be set up anywhere,even in open world dungeons.
You'd have to exercise some common sense when looking for a place to rest,odds are that you'll be disturbed by hostile NPC encounters
This can be dangerous as some of your party members that sleep won't wake up immediately ,unless hit by the NPC encounters
(if servers are going to have shards it would be easy to have a morning,noon,evening,night shard perhaps?)
Where your group decides to set up camp influences how much food is needed to set up camp
Indoors 6(based on the size of the team)
grass 6
Dirt,Road 12
Snow,march 24
Desert 36
Next to all this there would be a whole list of ailments, like insane
which cause friendly fire,greatly increases the resources needed for actions and greatly increases damage done
A character that goes insane is close to wasted
I do like the idea of the more strenuous the activity, the harder it is to keep up the work rate. I would love to see something that would reduce hit rates, damage, effectiveness of heals, buffs and aoes, etc, directly based on the players stats and the amount of time spent in vigorous activity. So the longer the fight, the more pronounced the detrimental effects would be.
So over the course of a fight, I could see a system that decremented your effective stats (STA, STR, WIS, etc.) which in turn would reduce the effectiveness of your primary function. It would mean every character has to be very aware of their own stats instead of just relying on the healer. This would lead to new kinds of strategies that I havent seen in an MMO. You could envisage two groups taking turns in getting through an area, while one is resting, the other ventures further in. You could envisage tank and off tank continuously changing role as the primary tank became fatigued. You could also see a similar thing happen with healers. This alone would be a good reason to have 8 character groups, too.
Interesting, and I for one would like to see something like this implemented. Even if just in Alpha, to get peoples feel on this.
CoffeeManiac said:In the last streaming, i remarked that Joppa regen 80% of is mana while in meditation and take 2min 30sec (lvl 25 shaman i think)
i personaly think full regen should take a bit longer 5-10min+
5 min max for 0-100%. I'd prefer 3 min, which is about where it is now. The pace of combat, the way fights are, and the way respawn will be used, longer than 4-5 min will be overly punitive, imo. The time it took in the April stream seemed fine, except for the Healer, who was chronically OOM.
Kelem said: casters use mana with every spell if they decide to melee / jump / run / swim then stamina is used as well., Yes a caster is able to drain both :( Melee uses stamina with every swing / bash / jump / kick / swim, if they have an ability that they are able to cast with then yes they will have a mana bar and be able to drain mana as well. ...
Melee don't use any endurance if they auto attack. Casters don't have ranged auto attack, and a caster melee'ing means they aren't casting or medding, which isn't ideal unless melee'ing returns mana. So, there are tradeoffs by role/class.
X
As an example of this already happening in-game;
My Rogue uses Mana for stealth stance/skills like Shadow Walk, my mana continuously ticks down as I am in that stance so it can never last forever. I also us Endurance when I use any melee damaging ability and my Smoke and Mirrors CC is tied into that as well and will use 3/4's of my END bar to cast it successfully, limiting my ability to lock down anymore than 5 mobs (without failing a cast) as it is on a 6 sec refresh and only lasts for "up to" 30 seconds, can break earlier, which also takes me out of combat and my main role as a high dpsing melee class.
I know you guys are talking about being more in-depth but I wanted to give you an insight into how we already have it set up to help your discussion along. :)
Kilsin said:As an example of this already happening in-game;
My Rogue uses Mana for stealth stance/skills like Shadow Walk, my mana continuously ticks down as I am in that stance so it can never last forever. I also us Endurance when I use any melee damaging ability and my Smoke and Mirrors CC is tied into that as well and will use 3/4's of my END bar to cast it successfully, limiting my ability to lock down anymore than 5 mobs (without failing a cast) as it is on a 6 sec refresh and only lasts for "up to" 30 seconds, can break earlier, which also takes me out of combat and my main role as a high dpsing melee class.
I know you guys are talking about being more in-depth but I wanted to give you an insight into how we already have it set up to help your discussion along. :)
FIVE mobs?!? As a secondary utility role? An enchanter should BARELY be able to hold five mobs. A rogue should maybe be able to handle two at most. That's nuts. Bet that gets adujsted downward over the course of beta. If the rogue is primary DPS with some control utility, a change I think was necessary and smart, he can't be able to lock down an entire room. What happens if you have a group with an enchanter and two rogues? Easy mode? Plus, that sounds overpowered, why would any other DPS be wanted over a rogue that can CC FIVE mobs in a jam?