I disagree with the zone range idea. I really want people to go and discover that there are zones for a certain level. adventure <3 (and bards)
When you want a nice date
There is no need to wait
So where you begin ? when dungeon walls are closing in
Certain doom is your fate
Unless you collaborate
But if someone helps you survive
You make a friend for life
With LFG zone
Many chances will be blown
I miss the process of setting up groups in FFXI. In that game, it was well worth spending an hour plus to organize a group of players (with similar intentions/playtime) -- and then actually have to spend a bit of time traveling to your camp. I like risk vs reward ... the art of creating "power groups" is something that seems to have been long lost over the years. Throw all the convenience stuff out the window ... I'm perfectly fine sending PM's to people. I have no issue with a tool that helps you find people but to be honest, the majority of my groups were made by sending PM's to people who were never flagged as LFG. You know how many times I saw a level appropriate bard "LFG?" Hardly ever ... but I always sent PM's to every bard in my level range because it was worth the extra hassle to find one ... even if they didn't have a beacon of light guiding me to them.
Just one commet in response to the idea that nothing is needed except /who or the idea that only a /LFG tag is needed. There is real value to the /LFM tag. There are many situations where someone might be interested in grouping but doesn't want to throw on the /LFG tag for one reason or another. That person would benefit from being able to search easily for people who are LFM. And the /LFM tag is nice for groups that are not desperate to add another person to the group (and might not want to spam /who all LFG, but would be happy to have someone join. Those groups can throw up a /LFM. These little assistive tools don't eliminate the need for sending PMs and they don't preclude anyone from using /who all and asking non-flagged people to join etc.
*Looking for more*
Doesn't have to be such a chore
Just leave that door
Always adventure in store
Adventure is key to forging strong connection
No bonuses for neglection
You need to respect where you are
Cries for help can only go so far
You can attempt to lure some players with the smoke of a fire
Accepting risk that situations may turn dire
It might attract monsters that will make your life hell
So when they notice you first you can only try to yell
Hope and pray,another player comes your way
So adventure will close the gap,make friends stuck in some trap,shouldn't be in contact with the whole map
There is no thrill with the whole player-pool
So lets say farewell to the LFG tool
Honestly, I think any LFG/LFM tools are beneficial to all involved. Just because you don't NEED expanded versions or did just fine without barebones options in the past doesn't mean it is bad to have them now. Especially if this game is actually quite difficult and leveling/travel takes a good amount of time; it is in the best interest of all to have the means to quickly find/make groups all over the place. I never had a problem with /whoall and sending tells to a bunch of people in different dungeons back in EQ, but that is hardly preferable today.
oneADseven said:I miss the process of setting up groups in FFXI.
Flashback to spending 7+ hours for multiple days in a row LFG sitting in Jeuno. Though that may have more to do with how poorly classes/groups were balanced then and less to do with lfg tools, but I imagine they would have helped.
Yeah. /whoall worked (Well, somewhat. You could run into the "too many" message and not have everyone that matched in your available list). But windows for managing groups and raids would be more than welcome. Again, I think everyone agrees that we don't want queues and insta-travel automated matchups. It ruins games and eventually, they actually break. You wait for hours to get matched up and then someone in the group is under-geared or so low in level that completing the dungeon is impossible (don't get me started on the on-rails dungeons) and so the group either vote-kicks the poor bastard or people rage-quit. Either way the group is done before it started.
Those systems don't work and I don't want them. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Methods for a group to list their intentions and what they need, ways for people that are LFG to convey what they are looking for, for all of this to be available to both the /LFM group and /LFG person to narrow down their search and an interface to easily keep track of all of it, including the /tells sent to set things up, etc., are all things that most any group/player would find desirable.
And none of it would result in the issues that dungeon and raid queues do.
As long as I can invite people across the server, and they don't have to be in the same zone (or was it that you actually hard to target them?). That was obnoxious.
Otherwise, I'd frankly be ok with either one.
Having to take the risk of travelling to a particular dungeon or zone, hoping that your /shout LFG spam was going to render results, just added a little spice to the whole experience even if it was a pain in the caboose.
I can, however, concede that this is stemming completely form nostalgia. A simple, barebones LFG tool would be acceptable and useful to the overall health of the game. The goal here is game longevity, and I have a hard time believing that many MMO'ers these days will be interested in the old EQ way of forming groups. They don't have those feel good feelings to fall back on like some of us other old turds do.
I like you old turds, but there just ain't enough of you to make this game successful. New blood we need, and that ain't gonna happen with a simple /who all LFG.
Iksar said:Honestly, I think any LFG/LFM tools are beneficial to all involved. Just because you don't NEED expanded versions or did just fine without barebones options in the past doesn't mean it is bad to have them now. Especially if this game is actually quite difficult and leveling/travel takes a good amount of time; it is in the best interest of all to have the means to quickly find/make groups all over the place. I never had a problem with /whoall and sending tells to a bunch of people in different dungeons back in EQ, but that is hardly preferable today.
oneADseven said:I miss the process of setting up groups in FFXI.
Flashback to spending 7+ hours for multiple days in a row LFG sitting in Jeuno. Though that may have more to do with how poorly classes/groups were balanced then and less to do with lfg tools, but I imagine they would have helped.
Can't really say I've ever sat around LFG for long ... I would always get a group going myself. Having always played a tank, it was never really difficult ... but I do remember spending quite a bit of extra time trying to get the right composition and making sure people planned on sticking around for awhile. Also as a rule of thumb I always told people in advance that prior to them leaving, they needed to find a replacement. Didn't always happen but it worked most of the time.
oneADseven said:Iksar said:Honestly, I think any LFG/LFM tools are beneficial to all involved. Just because you don't NEED expanded versions or did just fine without barebones options in the past doesn't mean it is bad to have them now. Especially if this game is actually quite difficult and leveling/travel takes a good amount of time; it is in the best interest of all to have the means to quickly find/make groups all over the place. I never had a problem with /whoall and sending tells to a bunch of people in different dungeons back in EQ, but that is hardly preferable today.
oneADseven said:I miss the process of setting up groups in FFXI.
Flashback to spending 7+ hours for multiple days in a row LFG sitting in Jeuno. Though that may have more to do with how poorly classes/groups were balanced then and less to do with lfg tools, but I imagine they would have helped.
Can't really say I've ever sat around LFG for long ... I would always get a group going myself. Having always played a tank, it was never really difficult ... but I do remember spending quite a bit of extra time trying to get the right composition and making sure people planned on sticking around for awhile. Also as a rule of thumb I always told people in advance that prior to them leaving, they needed to find a replacement. Didn't always happen but it worked most of the time.
Agreed. If I wanted a group and there wasnt a group, I made a group. Being a crapadin (paladin) or necro in Kunark era EQ pretty much neccesitated making my own groups because strangers would normally not take those classes.
I don't mind tools that allow you to find groups or group members. I do mind tools that auto-dump you into a group, and absolutely despise tools that auto-port you to said group. Yeah, it makes it possible to get a group quickly and get to killing immediately. But it wholly removes the social aspect of actually talking to people. I found that often I was able to filter out knotheads that were not compatible to our group's goals or personality based on a short conversation first.
Me: "Hey, we've got XY and Z in the Soandso room of Whatsit. Care to join?"
Random_tool_01 : "Sure, but if Sword of Badass drops I want the loot."
Me: "Thank you but nevermind. Good luck in your adventures :)"
I don't think anyone here is really advocating automatic matchmaking or instant travel, just more options than barebones /lfg on and using /whoall. I think the party finder window from FFXIV is a pretty decent modern example of one.
oneADseven said:Can't really say I've ever sat around LFG for long ... I would always get a group going myself. Having always played a tank, it was never really difficult ... but I do remember spending quite a bit of extra time trying to get the right composition and making sure people planned on sticking around for awhile. Also as a rule of thumb I always told people in advance that prior to them leaving, they needed to find a replacement. Didn't always happen but it worked most of the time.
As a monk I didn't have such luxury, though I did often send tells to just about every tank in my level range. If I remember right they were the least desired DPS or just about back then and a vast majority of groups (all?) were chasing the best xp chain bonuses which made monks a bad candidate.
Maybe all the different situations call for different LFG support tied into all kinds of systems
With a big war going on, there would be rally points
In the cities a message board/tavern
In the wilds a campfire could be used with smoke signal,or a player could put a message in a bottle
There also could be events where sky lanterns are used,or specific methods unique to the holiday or customs of a race
What if you go to a place where you want to group, and you "/shout4Group Howdy Campers", which then triggers selective mob pathing toward the shouting PC, and visual or audio ques to give the sense that, yelling in say, a cave full of monsters, might piss off those monsters. So the solo person could become the target of select roaming mobs trying to find the source of shouting. The mobs that block the path and walk around are already in prime position to perform this role.
But the trick here, you let people in the cave (or any area) respond back with "/shout4Group Howdy Stranger". Which changes the roaming target to the group. Clearing a temporarily safe path to their location, organically, and in a way supported with immersion.
Menus are cool too I guess. If you like convenience more than immersion and fun.
However,
What makes an MMORPG, Massive Multiplayer, and not just a matchmaker, is that the gameworld itself is the Lobby, so to speak. It stands to reason, an ideal MMORPG group finder, should follow that model, and use the game world itself as the group finder, whenever possible. Job boards, expedition notices, dynamic mob behaviors. These should all play a strong role in bringing players together. The more convenience you build into the gameworld, the less immersion you sacrifice for it. People need groups, but they don't really need a groupfinder specifically. Right?
At least that is what I think. Why replace "/shout Camp Check" with a menu system, when you could just make shouting better?
Iksar said:I don't think anyone here is really advocating automatic matchmaking or instant travel, just more options than barebones /lfg on and using /whoall. I think the party finder window from FFXIV is a pretty decent modern example of one.
oneADseven said:Can't really say I've ever sat around LFG for long ... I would always get a group going myself. Having always played a tank, it was never really difficult ... but I do remember spending quite a bit of extra time trying to get the right composition and making sure people planned on sticking around for awhile. Also as a rule of thumb I always told people in advance that prior to them leaving, they needed to find a replacement. Didn't always happen but it worked most of the time.
As a monk I didn't have such luxury, though I did often send tells to just about every tank in my level range. If I remember right they were the least desired DPS or just about back then and a vast majority of groups (all?) were chasing the best xp chain bonuses which made monks a bad candidate.
All I can say is, huh?"
I played a monk in eq for 14 years and never ever had an issue getting a group. I could single pull just about any where, dps when in camp and off tank when needed. Unless you're talking about Monks in some Final Fantasy game, then, okay, I've no experience. But I don't remember Monks in EQ1 ever having a hard time getting groups, if for no other reason than pulling.
ZennExile said:What if you go to a place where you want to group, and you "/shout4Group Howdy Campers", which then triggers selective mob pathing toward the shouting PC, and visual or audio ques to give the sense that, yelling in say, a cave full of monsters, might piss off those monsters. So the solo person could become the target of select roaming mobs trying to find the source of shouting. The mobs that block the path and walk around are already in prime position to perform this role.
But the trick here, you let people in the cave (or any area) respond back with "/shout4Group Howdy Stranger". Which changes the roaming target to the group. Clearing a temporarily safe path to their location, organically, and in a way supported with immersion.
Menus are cool too I guess. If you like convenience more than immersion and fun.
However,
What makes an MMORPG, Massive Multiplayer, and not just a matchmaker, is that the gameworld itself is the Lobby, so to speak. It stands to reason, an ideal MMORPG group finder, should follow that model, and use the game world itself as the group finder, whenever possible. Job boards, expedition notices, dynamic mob behaviors. These should all play a strong role in bringing players together. The more convenience you build into the gameworld, the less immersion you sacrifice for it. People need groups, but they don't really need a groupfinder specifically. Right?
At least that is what I think. Why replace "/shout Camp Check" with a menu system, when you could just make shouting better?
Yes,I'd love the yell/shout/ feature tied in with the NPC disposition system,so that it can draw unwanted attention from certain mobs.
All about embracing risk and danger <33
It might work differently in safezones like cities,compared to wilderness
Many say immersion is an overused word but it is exactly what is needed to make finding groups fun.So for many systems i'd prefer the gameworld itself as utility.One thing I kind of liked in Tera was the use of campfires to regenerate stamina and it played and important role to camp efficiently. Campfire could also serve as group finder in wilderness,with risks attached for the smoke signal it causes
Fluffy said:ZennExile said:What if you go to a place where you want to group, and you "/shout4Group Howdy Campers", which then triggers selective mob pathing toward the shouting PC, and visual or audio ques to give the sense that, yelling in say, a cave full of monsters, might piss off those monsters. So the solo person could become the target of select roaming mobs trying to find the source of shouting. The mobs that block the path and walk around are already in prime position to perform this role.
But the trick here, you let people in the cave (or any area) respond back with "/shout4Group Howdy Stranger". Which changes the roaming target to the group. Clearing a temporarily safe path to their location, organically, and in a way supported with immersion.
Menus are cool too I guess. If you like convenience more than immersion and fun.
However,
What makes an MMORPG, Massive Multiplayer, and not just a matchmaker, is that the gameworld itself is the Lobby, so to speak. It stands to reason, an ideal MMORPG group finder, should follow that model, and use the game world itself as the group finder, whenever possible. Job boards, expedition notices, dynamic mob behaviors. These should all play a strong role in bringing players together. The more convenience you build into the gameworld, the less immersion you sacrifice for it. People need groups, but they don't really need a groupfinder specifically. Right?
At least that is what I think. Why replace "/shout Camp Check" with a menu system, when you could just make shouting better?Yes,I'd love the yell/shout/ feature tied in with the NPC disposition system,so that it can draw unwanted attention from certain mobs.
All about embracing risk and danger <33
It might work differently in safezones like cities,compared to wildernessMany say immersion is an overused word but it is exactly what is needed to make finding groups fun.So for many systems i'd prefer the gameworld itself as utility.One thing I kind of liked in Tera was the use of campfires to regenerate stamina and it played and important role to camp efficiently. Campfire could also serve as group finder in wilderness,with risks attached for the smoke signal it causes
Interesting ideas here. It would take more than just these but I like to think out of the box ideas are always worth exploring. So in out door areas a campfire with smoke rising up through the trees and hills to show a group LFM as you mentioned, would also aid in finding the group without the use of maps.
I'll add to the idea some type of Flair crafted from low level items (keep the knub zones alive) that could be shot through the zone to announce a player LFG.
A literal campfire with smoke, that signaled party LFG, would dill my pickle in just the right brine.
I am not a fan of global text communication, or even zone-wide chat, but zone wide smoke signals... that I can support. Maybe put a lookout in a strategic place where players can go look for campfires... Anything at all really that keeps the player interacting with the gameworld rather than the User Interface wins in my book.
ZennExile said:A literal campfire with smoke, that signaled party LFG, would dill my pickle in just the right brine.
Not sure if I am to be hungry or aroused.
ZennExile said:I am not a fan of global text communication, or even zone-wide chat, but zone wide smoke signals... that I can support. Maybe put a lookout in a strategic place where players can go look for campfires... Anything at all really that keeps the player interacting with the gameworld rather than the User Interface wins in my book.
I see your point. But ultimetly at this strategic place there would be a UI element that shows LFG players.
It depends on dep you want immersion. In the mud world we came from a console command interface so alot of the features are based on that so I can see this type of system working where the /who all is replace withe a ingame RP mechanic.
This makes me want to start a thread on MUDs and does the player base need to understad a Mud to get what Pantheon is?
I serve as a world Builder and Admin a the CircleMud codebase project to this day and it is up and running.
We are keeping it alive as history to the CurcleMud base.
I'll start a thread in off topic on the connect info.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6775/mud-experience/view/post_id/124778
What if it did not have a UI element though? What if you could just see the trails of smoke rising from a camp in the distance using a telescope? Or a seeing mirror? Or a pool of black blood? Or a fresh puddle of Unicorn urine? Or you torture the information out of a roaming merchant? Maybe you just eat those mushrooms the goblin told you would summon the spider god?
What it you just grab a table over at the ButtStuff BBQ pit, eat till you can't walk, drink till you can't stand, and rejoice in the merriment until you receive word a group of adventurers over yonder is looking for a powerful Necromancer to overwhelm a larger force with disposable troops made of their own casualties.
The Gameworld should be the UI, if at all possible, and within reason. Some things are too complicated, would take to long, or cost to much. But everything that wouldn't, I would pursue.
Let's hope all classes are needed, wanted, useful...there was a time in EQ just after Kunark came out where wizzies weren't wanted, as suddenly.... rogues did more dps ..than wizards. Never could figure how a rogue could out damage a nuker. The campfire idea is wonderful there was that same idea in Star Wars Galaxies, only the entertainers would stay (not sure if this actually got implemented, I left before it came to be, but it was something that was talked about quite a bit) at the campfires while the hunters and warriors went out to look for kills. The dancers and musicians would stay back at camp to heal the mind wounds and other injuries when the fighters returned to camp, instead of being stuck in the cantinas waiting for the war weary to come looking for mending. I do like the idea of LFM or LFG camps..does seem more immersive than constant non stop spam in the chat channels, like we see today in EQ for example.
Zeem said:ZennExile said:A literal campfire with smoke, that signaled party LFG, would dill my pickle in just the right brine.
Not sure if I am to be hungry or aroused.
Consider me both.
This post was edited by Tralyan at August 9, 2017 9:27 AM PDT
So long as what ever LFG tool they do allows people to flag themselves up for grouping and allows them to do so from anywhere in the world is fine.
Also I personally dont have a problem with forming groups automatically... i dont see the need (or difference) from the "/lfm Heals" spam aside from being more efficient. Maybe if they only automate it to when a "leader" decides he doesnt care who joins he can check an "auto-invite" function that sends out invites to other players. I mean, so long as there is an LFG search they can literally do that anyway, be it manually or with some script/addon. Not really a game breaker though but much preferred.
Only thing id be against is like automatic porting which just promotes that silent rush style of gameplay Ive grown to despise. But thats mostly also because those other games design their dungeons to be quick and easy so communication and coordination arent really required.
DragonFist said:All I can say is, huh?"
I played a monk in eq for 14 years and never ever had an issue getting a group. I could single pull just about any where, dps when in camp and off tank when needed. Unless you're talking about Monks in some Final Fantasy game, then, okay, I've no experience. But I don't remember Monks in EQ1 ever having a hard time getting groups, if for no other reason than pulling.
I was talking about Final Fantasy XI, never had an issues with grouping in EQ.
ZennExile said:Menus are cool too I guess. If you like convenience more than immersion and fun.
However,
What makes an MMORPG, Massive Multiplayer, and not just a matchmaker, is that the gameworld itself is the Lobby, so to speak. It stands to reason, an ideal MMORPG group finder, should follow that model, and use the game world itself as the group finder, whenever possible. Job boards, expedition notices, dynamic mob behaviors. These should all play a strong role in bringing players together. The more convenience you build into the gameworld, the less immersion you sacrifice for it. People need groups, but they don't really need a groupfinder specifically. Right?
At least that is what I think. Why replace "/shout Camp Check" with a menu system, when you could just make shouting better?
It is a game after all and some concessions must be made for player convenience, especially for those with limited play time. All too often cries for immersion end up skirting the line of tedious realism, more micromanagement than fun gameplay. Though the immersion issue is generally a bad arguement as it has a fuzzy definition at best and the quality of experience is extremely subjective. I found myself VERY immersed in EverQuest (a good portion of that due to being in first person) even though half of my sceen or more was just some chunky stone/marble interface . I can't imagine ever getting to the point that I forget I am playing a game, maybe some day in a few more generations of virtual reality technology.
If I have two hours to play I don't want to have to run around zones trying to find bonfire after bonfire (that idea wouldn't work in dungeons) in hopes someone needs my particular class only to find all parties full and I need to go try yet another zone. Nor do I want to have to spend my limited time sitting next to job board/expedition notice listing in a town/tavern constantly checking and rechecking, especially since this would require that I always try to log out near such a place which would suck and I am hoping this game doesn't have rest exp/hearthstones. These things might be "fun" for a short while but I assure you it would be nothing more than tedious the 20th, 30th, 100th group you are looking for.
I can't shout camp checks for all the areas I'd be willing to group for my level and forcing soft limits on finding parties only in the current zone I would argue is more tedium than fun. The game world should be the challenge; the mobs, the professions, the travel. No reason to make everything complicated. Few people would likewise want to go to an inn to have to order food then wait for it to be made and brought to the table just to feed their character, and this seems to be in a similar realm.
In EQ you could just type "/LFG". This put a looking for group flag on you. You could also do a global search for "/who all LFG", and every person who was looking for a group would be listed. From there you could start sending tells.
You could further reduce the output by including classes, level ranges, locations, etc.
/Who all LFG cleric 10 20 ---- Shows every cleric with LFG between the levels of 10 and 20.
/who all LFG Karnors ---- Shows everyone of every class LFG in the zone of Karnors Keep.
I'm not really sure why anything has to be any more complicated than this. It would be nice to have an interface with checkboxes or something. But otherwise, I'm not really seeing any additional functionality that's required, or even prefered.
[Edit] Ok, I'll admit that included in an interface it would be nice to check off the areas you're actually LFG in.
As what you might consider a "hardcore" gamer, I have never found matchmaking services to be more effective at getting me in a group, than just seeking one out myself, either through chat or by going to the place I want to group, and finding an open spot.
That makes it difficult to empathize with your perspective. It seems like the main negative would be the "perception" that getting a group is more difficult without a matchmaking service. But for me, the exact opposite has always been true. Matchmaking services just don't seem to offer any benefit in actual time.