Forums » The Paladin

Paladin Role Concern based on EQ

    • 321 posts
    April 7, 2017 9:20 AM PDT
    For the love of god don't give us the same spell list as clerics just at later levels.

    A divine avatar of justice is going to get entirely different help from his/her deity than a divine avatar of peace.

    Some crossover is fine, but the first years of EQ as a paladin were utterly boring and unexciting. I lived through that once.

    Never again.

    A logical supporting argument for my stance:

    As a divine being a deity is capable of bestowing many different kinds of abilities upon a devout follower. The deity in their infinite wisdom isn't going to necessarily give strength to those who need wisdom, it would be a waste of a gift.

    Following that logic, a deity would be more inclined to bestow different tools then those bestowed upon a cleric. Now some things may be universal, because say it's a deity of healing or some such. There's going to be obviously going to be a focus upon that.

    But I'd rather much like to avoid the way EQ handled spells in re: hybrids.


    • 43 posts
    April 22, 2017 6:15 PM PDT

    My original main in EQ1 was a paladin, and I, too, suffered during the "Noone wants a paladin tank" days.  As I see it, there were a pair of reasons why paladins (and SKs to a lesser extent), were the red-headed step children when it came to group desirability:

    1. Horrible hybrid exp penalties at release through part of Kunark - 40% if I remember correctly, and the way group experience calculations worked, you actually cost everyone else in the group experience as well  The halfling warrior tank, on the other hand, would actually make the group level faster!

    2. Lack of damage - this one was cited frequently - a dual wielding/double attacking warrior with dual Yaks in vanilla would massively outdamage a ghoulbane and shield wielding paladin, while having similar (or better) mitigation thanks to superior skill caps and itemization.  Moar deeps = faster kills = moar exps.  PUGs in general wanted the holy trinity to maximize their efficiency.  Hell, it wasn't uncommon to see decently geared warriors filling DPS slots in PUGs in the original game and competing with rangers and rogues (until rogues got their big balancing buff).

    I'm doubting either of these will be applicable to this game.  Since then, here have been almost two decades of object lessons to learn from where class balance is concerned, and I doubt the devs will repeat these particular sins of the past.  

    • 600 posts
    April 22, 2017 7:31 PM PDT

    I also hope that paladins get different spell listing than a we got form the EQ1 area and im sure VR is making sure they do cause like Summistress said they are completely different classes with a few common traits.  Paladins such be pushing as much damage as a DL is my honest opinion, or is that saying paladins should be pushing as much damage as a shadow knight in EQ.  And if you are going to make paladin an undead focused class like they were in EQ please give out more undead zones and make them have more undead damage capabilities plz, the ward undead spell was a nice touch but in later part of the game they were still getting out dpsed by warriors while fighting undead

    • 600 posts
    April 22, 2017 7:31 PM PDT

    sry it double posts it so deleting


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at April 22, 2017 7:32 PM PDT
    • 321 posts
    May 1, 2017 9:10 AM PDT
    I am on about the same page as you Riahuf.

    Not quite sure if I am ready to say Pal and DL should be the same DPS, but I can say the large difference in early EQ severely hampered our viability.

    However the Vanguard paladin (what I REALLY hope they take away from) was abit more in line with where I on a personal level would like the paladin class to be.

    If the stances are done properly and our spell set up is done correctly I think we will be absolutely fine.

    However if compared to EQ realistically we are going to have to give up alot of our healing ability (not a problem for me) in order to do that, otherwise balance will be a bit difficult.

    The EQ paladin was far to "watered down" cleric and not enough " arbiter and bringer of justice" for my personal preference.
    • 4 posts
    May 4, 2017 9:41 PM PDT

    When I think of a paladin I think of a martial caster using either sword and shield or a 2handed weapon. Maybe they could have stances that change the way they play. Like being in a 'Protector' stance could increase the threat/potency of their healing abilities for generating threat and making them a good tank to partner with a healer that heals less but brings other benefits like buffs/debuffs. Then having a 'Retribution' stance or something that makes them more offensive and more of a dps/ot with the ability to debuff enemies with things that make them do less damage/take more damage. Either case, I feel they need to be versatile class and feel like a hybrid that has a couple of unique aspects to them that make them desired in either role of a Tank/Off-Healer or a DPS/Off-tank.

    I never played much of EQ, but some good examples of paladins in games I've played would be 3.5 Pathfinder, FF14 and Vanguard. 

    • 15 posts
    May 7, 2017 6:54 PM PDT

    I am interested to see what the Paladin will be in this game.  I played a Paladin in EQ1 for many years and it had its ups and downs.  This game looks like it has great potential. 

    • 600 posts
    May 8, 2017 12:10 PM PDT

    Sunmistress said: I am on about the same page as you Riahuf. Not quite sure if I am ready to say Pal and DL should be the same DPS, but I can say the large difference in early EQ severely hampered our viability. However the Vanguard paladin (what I REALLY hope they take away from) was abit more in line with where I on a personal level would like the paladin class to be. If the stances are done properly and our spell set up is done correctly I think we will be absolutely fine. However if compared to EQ realistically we are going to have to give up alot of our healing ability (not a problem for me) in order to do that, otherwise balance will be a bit difficult. The EQ paladin was far to "watered down" cleric and not enough " arbiter and bringer of justice" for my personal preference.

    I am fine with giving up a large amount of my healing abilties to do sometihng in terms of dps like maybe what your saying in VG, this wouldn't bother me at all, i just got tired of being looked past simply becuase my dps was nil but could basically live forever for as long i had some abilties up lol.  but i want to feel like i helping things die and not be just the guy getting smacked around and basically just taking it and not doing anything about it i guess.

    • 20 posts
    May 11, 2017 10:19 PM PDT

    I played a Paladin in EQ1 from 1999 till 2003 and what I loved most about the Paladin back then was the Stun spells and how 2 paladins could could dang near lock down a caster npc from getting few and far between spells off :)   If I wasn't the main tank and we got an add, I would get aggro, move it away from the group, stun and root it and get back into the fight.  If things went sideways, I could stun, root and run away :)      Brave Brave Sir Robin.....

    As others pointed out above, hopefully they will lean more twords the Vanguard kind of Paladin and not the old EQ paladin.....

     

     

     

    • 6 posts
    May 18, 2017 4:09 PM PDT

    Paladin in FFXI was perfect in my opinion....best defense, best shield block, and self healing!  If I think could add maybe one more mechanic to the role it woulD be a little more fun...I enjoyed it in FFXI and it was a very sought after role

    • 22 posts
    December 4, 2017 5:32 PM PST

    Isn't this kinda the hybrid paradox though. I mean if you want to be a jack of all trades, you can't also be a master? One way to fix it is to avoid making "pure" classes and make every class a hybrid of 2 verticals.


    This post was edited by endylendari at December 4, 2017 5:37 PM PST
    • 63 posts
    December 5, 2017 8:53 PM PST

    Anyone who thought the Paladin was a "Watered down cleric" in classic EQ wasn't playing a Paladin well at all.

     

    Best snap agro in the game, ability to rez, stuns and interrupts for days, lull pulls, LoH for emergencies.

     

    Please don't hymogonize the classes. Don't ask for them to make Paladins damage dealers. I don't want another MMO where every class feels the same.

     

    I'm maining a Paladin - and am totally OK with dealing very little damage, as long as I have my defensive utility.

    • 82 posts
    December 7, 2017 7:43 AM PST

    I am very interested to see where VR eventually ends up with its vision of the paladin.  I honestly didn’t have a lot of fun playing a paladin in EQ1 but I was younger and quite possibly never grasped the intricacies of the class.  As Dulu mentioned, the thing I hope is always first and foremost in the dev’s minds is keeping classes very distinct.

    For paladins I can ”see” two clearly different approaches to the image of the class.  Either a divine bulwark, defending their party from all blows, or a holy avenger or crusader that is hell bent on smiting the enemies of their deity.  Seeing the paladin has been stated to be a tank class, I imagine it will look more like the former.  

    That being said, I think it would be interesting to see a mechanic wherein we might see the paladin’s more vicious nature.  Something akin to an enrage or righteous fury triggered by a group member death, or based off an internal counter of damage blocked.  Something to give paladins some burst damage without making them a dps oriented class. Suppose it could also just be an CD activated the traditional way.  

    • 87 posts
    December 9, 2017 7:46 PM PST

    I hope its the hardest classes to play and that people rarely play!

    • 184 posts
    December 14, 2017 6:44 AM PST

    I'm not sure why you'd say something like this. Could you clarify and tie it to a larger point?

     

    Leowna said:

    I hope its the hardest classes to play and that people rarely play!

    • 321 posts
    December 14, 2017 8:05 AM PST

    Verdic said:

    I'm not sure why you'd say something like this. Could you clarify and tie it to a larger point?

     

    [blockquote]Leowna said:

    I hope its the hardest classes to play and that people rarely play!

    [/blockquote]

     

    Just guessing, because excelling at a rare and difficult class has a prestige value that really helps your personal rep.

     

    • 446 posts
    December 25, 2017 10:48 AM PST

    For those who play (or have played) a paladin in current EQ: What do you think of the gameplay and class role there? The class certainly had problems in the past, but how does the current incarnation play at high end? (my personal experience is limited to lvl 66, currently playing one on the Vox server. At that point, the class feels "complete" and plays just fine, but grouping is somewhat limited due to population at this level range).

    • 131 posts
    December 26, 2017 11:31 AM PST

    Sarim said:

    For those who play (or have played) a paladin in current EQ: What do you think of the gameplay and class role there? The class certainly had problems in the past, but how does the current incarnation play at high end? (my personal experience is limited to lvl 66, currently playing one on the Vox server. At that point, the class feels "complete" and plays just fine, but grouping is somewhat limited due to population at this level range).

    I mainly played from 2000-2005, but I did briefly go back around 2013-14 ish at which point the game was totally different. They game is very watered down and many classes are capable of many things. In raids there is some utility, but I was pretty unimpressed by what EQ had become.

    Back when I played in Velious-Omens, the paladin very much came into it's own. We could tank very well, offtank in raids, support heal, throw out impressive numbers against undead, and at least in my guild, in which I was in charge of our tanks, paladins had a very well defined role in raids. I agree with you that in the level 65-70 range the paladin really does feel complete and is a very good complementary class in groups or raids in that era of EQ and that's what I hope every class in Pantheon can look forward to.

    • 184 posts
    December 28, 2017 6:22 PM PST

    I could live with that. As long as we have a well defined and sought after role.

     

    Quintra said:

    [blockquote]Sarim said:

    For those who play (or have played) a paladin in current EQ: What do you think of the gameplay and class role there? The class certainly had problems in the past, but how does the current incarnation play at high end? (my personal experience is limited to lvl 66, currently playing one on the Vox server. At that point, the class feels "complete" and plays just fine, but grouping is somewhat limited due to population at this level range).

    I mainly played from 2000-2005, but I did briefly go back around 2013-14 ish at which point the game was totally different. They game is very watered down and many classes are capable of many things. In raids there is some utility, but I was pretty unimpressed by what EQ had become.

    Back when I played in Velious-Omens, the paladin very much came into it's own. We could tank very well, offtank in raids, support heal, throw out impressive numbers against undead, and at least in my guild, in which I was in charge of our tanks, paladins had a very well defined role in raids. I agree with you that in the level 65-70 range the paladin really does feel complete and is a very good complementary class in groups or raids in that era of EQ and that's what I hope every class in Pantheon can look forward to.

    [/blockquote]

    • 25 posts
    April 23, 2018 11:50 AM PDT

    I really liked how tanks were done in VG.  Warrior/SK/Paladin were all viable tanks, but excelled in different fields and against certaint types of bosses.  Absolutely loved my paladin in that game.

    • 776 posts
    April 25, 2018 10:30 AM PDT

    I think people might be misremembering paladins in EQ....

    Yes, Warriors are sought after more IN RAIDS, but in groups? Paladins and Shadowknights were the kings of groups with their aggro generation. And I'm actually ok with that trade off. 

    • 601 posts
    April 25, 2018 10:44 AM PDT

    Vanguard's paladin seemed pretty interesting from the databases I could find on the subject, with anti undead bonuses, buffs and emergency healings. A kit close to this one, on a tank, would be a good asset for a lot of compositions lacking raw healing power.

    I know they stated that Pantheon's PLD will be more agressive, but I wonder to what extend.

    • 3 posts
    April 25, 2018 11:34 AM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    I think people might be misremembering paladins in EQ....

    Yes, Warriors are sought after more IN RAIDS, but in groups? Paladins and Shadowknights were the kings of groups with their aggro generation. And I'm actually ok with that trade off. 

     

    Experiences were totally dependent on the era.  If someone played a Paladin in Kunark/Velious and read your post, they would probably think you were off your rocker.  Paladins and SKs took over group tanking in Planes of Power and even became decent raid off-tanks or MTs (for Inny/Cazic Thule and a few E-Plane events.)

    Everquest made several early blunders when they handed Warriors the Defensive Discipline and Clerics the C-heal spell.  I imagine that VR isn't going to be making that mistake, so I think it's likely we see a much more balanced landscape for group/raid roles.

    • 776 posts
    April 25, 2018 3:54 PM PDT

    throren said:

    [blockquote]Tralyan said:

    I think people might be misremembering paladins in EQ....

    Yes, Warriors are sought after more IN RAIDS, but in groups? Paladins and Shadowknights were the kings of groups with their aggro generation. And I'm actually ok with that trade off. 

     

    Experiences were totally dependent on the era.  If someone played a Paladin in Kunark/Velious and read your post, they would probably think you were off your rocker.  Paladins and SKs took over group tanking in Planes of Power and even became decent raid off-tanks or MTs (for Inny/Cazic Thule and a few E-Plane events.)

    Everquest made several early blunders when they handed Warriors the Defensive Discipline and Clerics the C-heal spell.  I imagine that VR isn't going to be making that mistake, so I think it's likely we see a much more balanced landscape for group/raid roles.

    [/blockquote]

    Maybe I'M misremembering, then. The era I was referring to was indeed the classic through Velious era, where Paladins and SK's had excellent snap aggro via spells that made them desirable in groups, but were pretty darn useless in raids. I guess I wouldn't say there were any better than warriors in groups, pre-50, but to say they were shunned? I'm not sure I would go that far. 

    Thought I do absolutely agree on the early blunders. Here's hoping VR won't make those mistakes. 

    • 234 posts
    April 25, 2018 5:31 PM PDT

    Complete heal a blunder? *Deep breath* Trying to stay calm. Serenity now! Other than my clicky stick, it was one of the things I loved most as a Cleric. I've heard the arguments, but yeah. Don't care. I loved it.

    As for being the group leader most times (because duh, I was the Cleric) my priority list was Pally, then SK. If the CC/Slower was a Shaman (which by the way -for me- was the Shamans' REAL job in EQ1) then having a Warrior as a group tank was less of an issue. If the Slower was an Enchanter, then aggro was an issue. The slight defensive bonus Warriors had was nothing compared to the aggro control Pallies and SK's had. Hell, I've had times where Monks could tank almost as good as a Warrior in group settings.