Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

EQ v Vanguard

    • 107 posts
    June 27, 2016 11:43 PM PDT

    First let me say my comments are spurred by what i have read in these forums. i have never played EQ. I have played 2 of Brad's other babies, SWGs and Vanguard extensively (over 1 year played on an alt in Vanguard, and a pre village jedi in SWGs to establish i have often played mmos much to much.) those 2 games were my favorite mmos and the only ones i played for more than a few months with the exception of a stint on LOTRO.

    perhaps this discussion is moot as i expect The Team has decided much of what this game will be. regardless, this nags at me and so to get it out of my brain i will place it here.

    i VERY much hope the game leans far more vanguard than EQ because what i am seeing in the differences between the 2 is not so much that EQ was harder but more tedious.

    i just do not understand how people think the following things are fun:

    1) How is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun? i love exploring. i explore in every game i am in and immediately dislike any game in which i cannot. Kashyyk sucked! however, when my group is in a particular area and i am trying to reach them i am NOT going to explore. long travel times will NOT encourage me to explore. they will just make me feel like crap because i have people who are waiting a half hour for me because i wanted to help a guildy the night before and wasnt thinking of our static group the next night. i see people posting no rifts, only SoW speed buffs, few rez altars so if you die everyone waits another 30 minutes for you. 

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun? i love crafting items that get used. in SWGs i spent hours trying to get lucky rolls for a max item for mass production. (RNG crafting sucks, but with the fact you could mass resource harvest and then make a schematic, it worked in SWGs) in vanguard i crafted enough pota gear for 2 guilds that i almost never did any pick up work. but i would rather not craft than spend hours spamming. sure that drives up prices, sure those willing to afk spam for 8 hours likely will become rich. i suppose then they could buy the best drops in game, but the defeats the risk=reward concept, no?

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun? yeah, the payoff when you open it and it is finally there! but it is 10 hours of tedium. it's like going to the DMV, it feels great when you are finally called, but only because waiting sucked so badly. would much rather have more complicated fights with higher drop rates. vanguard had 2 blues and a yellow for most named. blues were about 40% and yellows 20% (maybe they were 10% although that stringed moss lute seemd to be a freaking 1% drop rate!) sure it is great when it finally drops, but if it is 10% it is still great, if it is 20% still great. also, the lower the drop rate the greater chance someone else saying, 'this game is competitive, so we want the mob, we will take it, up to you to outdps us.' if drop rate is higher, then you camp for 1 or 2 hours you likely will get your drop and move on.

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun? the higher the death penalty, xp loss, death debuff, time to rejoin group, etc., the higher the risk aversion. dying will hurt. and past a certain point too many people get gun-shy. I have met people so scared of dying they wouldn't pull trash mobs until everyone was 100%. met people that were there for every raid farm night, but never for progressions. it is no coincidence that among the leaders in pve deaths in vanguard were some of the best players. they see a tough mob and say 'lets kill it,' not '50/50 chance we beat him, so we will go around.' you wipe to kotasoth 4 times once a week for a month or so, you go xp grind for an hour or so to get the xp back. sucks, but ok. if you would have half the raid lose a level or get a high debuff for an hour, or it takes an hour to reform for the next attempt, you get 1 maybe 2 pulls a night, which means twice as long to get the same number of pulls, which means likely 3 times as long to figure the rhythm of the fight. add in people skipping this week or that because they dont want to spend the time regaining xp... this doesn't make the fight more rewarding, interesting, or difficult, it only makes the fight more frustrating. if content is good, why would you want a death penalty so high as to make people avoid that content?

    all 4 things were in vanguard. from what i have read all 4 things were in EQ. each of these things has a value, but one that must be balanced. it seems, from what i have read on these forums, that they were much higher in EQ. my opinion is that, at least from a perspective of having fun, they were much better balanced in Vanguard, but i sincerly am interested in hearing opposing opinions.

    edit: highlight the questions since such a freaking long wall of text. but at least out of my brain. :)


    This post was edited by alephen at June 27, 2016 11:52 PM PDT
    • 839 posts
    June 28, 2016 12:41 AM PDT

    The next series of words i am going to write is not answering any of your questions really... but it is explaining through experience why i actually enjoy the things you describe as not fun, and you know what you are right they are not fun... but i think they are important for the greater narative which is our entire experience of the game as a whole and getting our new characters from whats a mezz through to epic master mezzer and the road was not straight forward, it was frustrating at times and you lost some sleep and time to get there.

    I think all of the above things are not specifically included to make your game more fun... a MMO with a hardcore aspect to it is not designed to be somthing fun that is completely fun, I look forward to a game like this because yes it is going to be fun and you will laugh and some things will be served up on a plate to you but also its going to make you cry and be filled with hardship and sometmies when your level 8 enchanter and you realise you have to run through Kith woods to get your next pet spell and everything on the way is bigger than you and mostly agro and you lose invis at the worst moment and die and then because of it lose your level and cry inside about it but then get back up and try again and finally make it and that was hard and damn it you missed out on an hour of leveling but now you have that new pet spell and your extremely happy about it and then you g to cast your 1st pet and realise you dont have any tiny daggers and you have to run to the nerest enchanter supplies npc to buy some more and finally you get to case that new spell...

    And the other way to achieve the above would be to click on the fast travel button to go straight to HHK buy everything you need from 1 vendor and fast travel back to EC to start leveling again... sure that is easier but for me there is no charm to that, there is no story, there is no hardship and there is very little internal reward besides meh just another spell

    None of my second paragraph is claiming to be fun, but it is somthing i cherish from the game, and if you wondering... no this is not my rose glasses, this was me a few weeks ago starting my chanter in P99 and pissing myself as this comedy of errors unfolded, of course laughing in that omg you have tio be kidding me way, but its just part of the game and part of why it feels like a real accomplishment to get things done in EQ.

    • 724 posts
    June 28, 2016 1:44 AM PDT

    alephen said:

    1) How is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun?

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun?

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun?

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun? 

    1) I'm curious about this as well, especially since we heard that there won't be much in the form of player ports either. Just yesterday while playing EQ on the Phinigel server, I was with a group at Unrest, and everything was camped. Now what did we do? Go somewhere else, or stay there and fight for scraps? Yep, the latter. Because it really takes a LONG time...too long maybe...to get around in EQ.

    2) I hope for at least a form of WTS/WTB message board. Because like you I'm in the camp of people who dislike the long spamming. I don't think that does anything for community really.

    3) Here it may depend on how leveling works. If you get good exp/cash etc while camping said mobs, it may not be so bad. If leveling is slow, you may even want to stay at a camp to gain exp and have a chance at a good drop at the same time. Of course, if leveling is fast, and mobs turn grey while you camp, it is bad...but I don't think you need to worry about this too much.

    4) From what we know, death penalty is still very much subject to discussion and WILL be tuned during alpha/beta. I think the most important thing is that you SHOULD want to avoid death. It should sting, but you're right, it should not be so bad that people avoid risk at all cost.

    • 201 posts
    June 28, 2016 2:22 AM PDT

    alephen said:

    I just do not understand how people think the following things are fun:

    1) How is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun?

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun?

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun?

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun? 

     

    Here Are my answers to each of these questions.

    1-AHow is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? Okay that is not fun but hey everyone had to do it, and it creates an undesirable consequence if you dying in combat, makes you think about your choices a little more.

    1-B) how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun? Most parties will continue to kill stuff while waiting for 1 party member, if you had died typically the healer will just ressurect you. If you are the new member to the group maybe they had already just started waiting or had already started the group and waiting for everyone else to run their designated location.

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun? This gives the social aspect of the game, It is an MMO after all, You also dont always need to spam chat either. In EQ1 we had to go to the Bazaar where we set up player trading posts. Then you have players some times messaging you for bartering and seeing if they can trade or even lower the prices of the item they wanted.

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun? Some times it is not fun but from what I have gathered they are trying to lower this as they are trying to take out some of the questing experiences that riddle the current MMO's and make it unjoyable such as repeatable quests that have you farm the same monster over and over and over just to get specific drops for the quest. Also Typically camping the same mob for that amount of time was for an epic weapon quest drop.

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun? Risk over Reward, High rewards for High Risk. The lower the risk lower the rewards. ALSO I have ran into many games where there is no risk in dying, Its like oouh I died and nothing happened to me. It adds a challange to the game, a fear of dying makes the game interesting. I remember playing Everquest before they removed Corpse runs, you had to THINK about your actions. Because if you had died you lost EXP and a potental level; and you lost everything that you currently had on your person until you were able to reclaim the equipment from the last location you were when you had died. This aspect also added a level of complexity to MMO's of being social, Asking other players to help you retrieve your stuff, a cleric for a rez.. Maybe even a full party, or raid  depending on where you may have died.

     

    • 839 posts
    June 28, 2016 2:51 AM PDT

    Sarim said:

     

    4) From what we know, death penalty is still very much subject to discussion and WILL be tuned during alpha/beta. I think the most important thing is that you SHOULD want to avoid death. It should sting, but you're right, it should not be so bad that people avoid risk at all cost.

    People avoiding big fights because they are scared of a death penalty is a great part of the game and maybe as they become more confident they will argue harder to fight the mobs that may be in question, make death sting and let the fear make you think long and hard about your strat, and if strategy is to go invis and run around it then thats your win or loss either way you look at it its up to you, risk vs reward needs to be in play and it needs to mean you lose somthing that is attached to you emotionally to really give you that elevation feeling when you survive.. i prefer to dive in to the deep end with taking on dangerous mobs on my own or in groups, never against the will of the group but i will try to sway opinions and most people are excited to see what the reward would be (xp or equip) for taking on a tough looking battle, with that extra bit of seriousness added to it knowing that you may well be about to lose and be partly responsible for somone else losing a bubble of xp and doing a cr.  I will go into a fight with a specific tactic knowing that it is going to be bad and ugly but damn it beating that badass mob thats probably going to wipe the floor with you is a fun part of the game and i think a large part of that excitment is because of the real fear of death! 

     

    So is the death penalty fun? of course not but it gets you gee'd up when you win the day and it makes you stop and think and do things better when you lose!

    • 844 posts
    June 28, 2016 3:18 AM PDT

    Most of these points are answered by the term "immersion". Travelling the world, exploring, seeing others doing the same has a way of drawing you into the game more. You slowly learn how to traverse an enormous land, knowing landmarks, waypoints, dungeon entrances, mining spots, so on and so on.

    Waiting for a group member can sometimes be very challenging. I am sure many of us remember working our asses off trying to hold a sweet camp spot until that 6th replacement showed up. Events like that really taught you how to play your class and work smoothly and smartly with a group and other classes.

    10 hours? I am sure all of us would have loved only camping 10 hours. The best camps were mostly alreadt that, camped. When you got lucky enough to get into a highly desired camp group you wanted to stay as long as you could in hopes of getting that elusive rare item. Once again goes towards immersion. You learned a lot about people you played with. You learned alot about playing your calss well. You learned techniques and tricks. And you felt great satisfaction upon acquiring a rare item.

    Death penalties? No big deal if you consider how impactive not getting your corpse back was. Players would rather lose a level than their hard fought gear, and in EQ at the highest levels corpse recovery was a serious business. And getting help from strangers was always an uplifting and rewarding event, as was helping complete strangers.

    Bottom line if you never played and experienced those times in EQ1 it is very hard to explain them. It's like trying to explain a sneeze to someone who has never sneezed.

     

    • 201 posts
    June 28, 2016 3:27 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    Death penalties? No big deal if you consider how impactive not getting your corpse back was. Players would rather lose a level than their hard fought gear, and in EQ at the highest levels corpse recovery was a serious business. And getting help from strangers was always an uplifting and rewarding event, as was helping complete strangers.

    Bottom line if you never played and experienced those times in EQ1 it is very hard to explain them. It's like trying to explain a sneeze to someone who has never sneezed.

     

    This perfectly explains the death penalty, and how impactive EQ1 was to many players.

    • 839 posts
    June 28, 2016 3:31 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    Death penalties? No big deal if you consider how impactive not getting your corpse back was. Players would rather lose a level than their hard fought gear, and in EQ at the highest levels corpse recovery was a serious business. And getting help from strangers was always an uplifting and rewarding event, as was helping complete strangers.

    Bottom line if you never played and experienced those times in EQ1 it is very hard to explain them. It's like trying to explain a sneeze to someone who has never sneezed.

     

    Aye! beat me to it Leo, Zewt nailed it!

    • 201 posts
    June 28, 2016 3:48 AM PDT

    Hokanu said:

    zewtastic said:

    Death penalties? No big deal if you consider how impactive not getting your corpse back was. Players would rather lose a level than their hard fought gear, and in EQ at the highest levels corpse recovery was a serious business. And getting help from strangers was always an uplifting and rewarding event, as was helping complete strangers.

    Bottom line if you never played and experienced those times in EQ1 it is very hard to explain them. It's like trying to explain a sneeze to someone who has never sneezed.

     

    Aye! beat me to it Leo, Zewt nailed it!

    Just call my Sandman, my room mates seem to like that nickname. You will probably run into me ALOT around the forums.

    • 76 posts
    June 28, 2016 4:31 AM PDT

    alephen said:

     

    how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun?

    It's just like real life, if something is handed to you, there is a much higher chance you won’t respect it/value it. The same is true if everyone else has the same things you have. Is it really worth doing something if everyone else can achieve the same result with little or no effort?

    Is it frustrating to camp things for a long time…yes, but does it make the time spent camping worth the wait knowing anyone else who has the item went through the same thing you did most likely to obtain it? I honestly would like to see longer camps, lower drop rates, and more pain and suffering. The only thing that makes the good relevant, is the pain of the bad. Please don’t give me a participation trophy…

     


    This post was edited by Vega at June 28, 2016 4:31 AM PDT
    • 1468 posts
    June 28, 2016 4:45 AM PDT

    I agree with most of the other posters here when it comes to your questions but with one exception and that is selling items.

    I don't have the time to play the game and have to sit around a certain zone spamming WTS macros to sell my gear. I normally try and sell my gear overnight so I hope that you'll be able to at the very least AFK sell but even better would be offline selling. I can't really afford the expense on my electricity bill if I leave my computer on all night. Plus I have my computer in my bedroom so the noise from the fans disturbs me when I am trying to sleep. For that reason I hope there is some way around that particular requirement and if there isn't I'm pretty sure I'll build a website that allows players to do offline trading anyway. Time will tell how popular that particular site would be. I can't be the only one without the time to play the game and spend hours trying to sell gear.

    • 1434 posts
    June 28, 2016 5:08 AM PDT

    The OPs question basically describes instant gratification. I don't mean this in the wrong way, but when an mmorpg lacks those innate challenges, what is the point of even playing an MMORPG? There are so many more convenient ways to have fast fun at a computer. An mmorpg doesn't sound like the right option for someone of that mindset.

    There are many types of games to play. The lobby games of today are not virtual worlds. They aren't even mmorpgs. There is little to no sense of community, no role play, no risk, only the game part. When you remove the parts of the game that make it seem like a world (like traveling, danger of dying, rarity of resources), all that is left is a game. No believability, no immersion.

    If nothing else, at least this post sums up what I liked about EQ vs what I didn't like about Vanguard.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at June 28, 2016 5:37 AM PDT
    • 769 posts
    June 28, 2016 6:11 AM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    If nothing else, at least this post sums up what I liked about EQ vs what I didn't like about Vanguard.

    Boom.

    • 1303 posts
    June 28, 2016 7:14 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    Bottom line if you never played and experienced those times in EQ1 it is very hard to explain them. It's like trying to explain a sneeze to someone who has never sneezed. 

    Perfect ! 

    I listen to a radio program where the guy describes how he grew up in rural Idaho, or something like that. They never traveled, and basically knew nothing of major cities. The radio personality took his first trip to New York City, and when he came back he was trying to describe pizza to his grandpa. The grandpa was appauled with the notion. Tomato sauce?! On bread!?? With sausages!?!? 

    If you had never heard of pizza it might be pretty tough to understand the appeal. But the reality is its pretty good. 

    I'm with Dullahan. This list is a pretty concise list of the secret sauce that made EQ pretty special. 

    • 1778 posts
    June 28, 2016 7:26 AM PDT

    alephen said:

    1) How is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun?

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun?

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun?

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun?

     

    1. There will be limited travel options and Im ok with this. Consider it part of the adventure. Also make friends with a teleport class ^.~

     

    2. Like someone else said above I am hoping for 1 or 2 systems to help with this such as a message or listing board as well as maybe a NPC or Player consignment system. It has been talked about before though so Id say expect something, but maybe not an AH.

     

    3. I assume you mean for content other than xp parties (because those are fine that way.) For other content I am hoping for a varied approach and not everything being contested (epic quests, triggerd spawns etc).

     

    4. It creates the risk vs reward element. Without which the challenge is sort of hollow. Then again I like Dark Souls. Your milage may vary. However, I do think that the death penalty can still be meaningful without a corpse run. I am against item loss though.

    • 132 posts
    June 28, 2016 8:14 AM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    The OPs question basically describes instant gratification. I don't mean this in the wrong way, but when an mmorpg lacks those innate challenges, what is the point of even playing an MMORPG? There are so many more convenient ways to have fast fun at a computer. An mmorpg doesn't sound like the right option for someone of that mindset.

    There are many types of games to play. The lobby games of today are not virtual worlds. They aren't even mmorpgs. There is little to no sense of community, no role play, no risk, only the game part. When you remove the parts of the game that make it seem like a world (like traveling, danger of dying, rarity of resources), all that is left is a game. No believability, no immersion.

    If nothing else, at least this post sums up what I liked about EQ vs what I didn't like about Vanguard.

    ^This. Pretty much sums it up. 

    If you don't want any of those things you listed, why not just play WoW? I'm not being a jerk here (plz don't take it that way)

    No travel time: just zap to the zone, jump on your flying mount, avoid ALL dangers, drop out of the sky directly on whatever. 

    No need to travel at all. just Queue up in Dungeon finders and wait til the game zaps you to a linear dungeon with no challenge. 

    No auctioning. Just AH it and camp. 

    No camping Anything at all. Just go to the Time isle and Epics are laying all over the ground. Just pick them up and get Epic achievement. 

    Die? pffft. just pay a few gold and go on with your day. No worries at all. You should spawn about 1 min away, which will be the longest travel time to deal with. 

    -------------------

    Hokanu said: (about traveling)

    And the other way to achieve the above would be to click on the fast travel button to go straight to HHK buy everything you need from 1 vendor and fast travel back to EC to start leveling again... sure that is easier but for me there is no charm to that, there is no story, there is no hardship and there is very little internal reward besides meh just another spell. 

    having to go to HHK, since there is Zero risk involved this way, becomes a pure annoyance. Why not just have spells pop up in your spell book like WoW? 

    ------------------

    Basically, the game needs these mechanics to make things worthy of getting. It makes people depend on others. it promotes community. 

    Log into WoW and ask any question and see what type of responses you get. The community on WoW is THE worst of any game ever. 

    Boost a character to 100 and Queue up for a dungeon and say" Hey guys, I am new, can you teach me what to do here?!!" 

    You will likely get vote kicked immediately. If you don't get vote kicked, the group won't say One word to you the entire dungeon. 

    The short answer, is because there are already Plenty of Other games to play if Pantheon's hard core gaming isn't "fun" to you. 

    I find WoW type of gaming (a solo MMO) boring as hell. No challenge. No travel. Fetch 10 rats. Death = nothing. 


    This post was edited by Medjai at June 28, 2016 8:16 AM PDT
    • 613 posts
    June 28, 2016 9:21 AM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    The OPs question basically describes instant gratification. I don't mean this in the wrong way, but when an mmorpg lacks those innate challenges, what is the point of even playing an MMORPG? There are so many more convenient ways to have fast fun at a computer. An mmorpg doesn't sound like the right option for someone of that mindset.

    There are many types of games to play. The lobby games of today are not virtual worlds. They aren't even mmorpgs. There is little to no sense of community, no role play, no risk, only the game part. When you remove the parts of the game that make it seem like a world (like traveling, danger of dying, rarity of resources), all that is left is a game. No believability, no immersion.

    If nothing else, at least this post sums up what I liked about EQ vs what I didn't like about Vanguard.

    Nailed it!

    Ox

    • 1860 posts
    June 28, 2016 10:48 AM PDT

    alephen said:

    First let me say my comments are spurred by what i have read in these forums. i have never played EQ. I have played 2 of Brad's other babies, SWGs and Vanguard extensively (over 1 year played on an alt in Vanguard, and a pre village jedi in SWGs to establish i have often played mmos much to much.) those 2 games were my favorite mmos and the only ones i played for more than a few months with the exception of a stint on LOTRO.

    perhaps this discussion is moot as i expect The Team has decided much of what this game will be. regardless, this nags at me and so to get it out of my brain i will place it here.

    i VERY much hope the game leans far more vanguard than EQ because what i am seeing in the differences between the 2 is not so much that EQ was harder but more tedious.

    i just do not understand how people think the following things are fun:

     

    I will take the time to respond to each point for you.  I agree with you on some and disagree on others.

    1) How is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun? i love exploring. i explore in every game i am in and immediately dislike any game in which i cannot. Kashyyk sucked! however, when my group is in a particular area and i am trying to reach them i am NOT going to explore. long travel times will NOT encourage me to explore. they will just make me feel like crap because i have people who are waiting a half hour for me because i wanted to help a guildy the night before and wasnt thinking of our static group the next night. i see people posting no rifts, only SoW speed buffs, few rez altars so if you die everyone waits another 30 minutes for you. 

    I love exploring too.  That isn't the issue. 

    The issue here is what you are doing.   You are trying to join a group that is to far away.  That is pretty inconsiderate of you to join a group that you have to travel for a half hour or more to reach. Please don't make them wait for you like that.  Maybe you should consider traveling to that area during this gaming session and put together a group for that area the next day (or your next gaming session).

    We want the game world to be large and expansive.  In order to convey that feeling it needs to take awhile to travel around it.  This is not a development issue, it is a player issue.

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun? i love crafting items that get used. in SWGs i spent hours trying to get lucky rolls for a max item for mass production. (RNG crafting sucks, but with the fact you could mass resource harvest and then make a schematic, it worked in SWGs) in vanguard i crafted enough pota gear for 2 guilds that i almost never did any pick up work. but i would rather not craft than spend hours spamming. sure that drives up prices, sure those willing to afk spam for 8 hours likely will become rich. i suppose then they could buy the best drops in game, but the defeats the risk=reward concept, no?

    I completely agree.  Spamming WTS ..or watching others spam WTS is not fun for me.  The "commons tunnel nostalgia" has gone way to far.  It was never as good as some people remember it being.

    I know many people are anti auction house, or bazaar/afk player vendor or npc vendor etc.  Call it what you will, they are all basically the same.   I am in the minority it seems who thinks this type of system is one of the things newer MMOs got right.

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun? yeah, the payoff when you open it and it is finally there! but it is 10 hours of tedium. it's like going to the DMV, it feels great when you are finally called, but only because waiting sucked so badly. would much rather have more complicated fights with higher drop rates. vanguard had 2 blues and a yellow for most named. blues were about 40% and yellows 20% (maybe they were 10% although that stringed moss lute seemd to be a freaking 1% drop rate!) sure it is great when it finally drops, but if it is 10% it is still great, if it is 20% still great. also, the lower the drop rate the greater chance someone else saying, 'this game is competitive, so we want the mob, we will take it, up to you to outdps us.' if drop rate is higher, then you camp for 1 or 2 hours you likely will get your drop and move on.

    I need to preface this by saying there is a line where the tedium is too extreme...quillmane etc, but in general, I don't mind long camps, I usually enjoy them.  10 hours doesn't seem bad at all? 2 game sessions or so and your item drops?  That seems pretty good.

    Like you mentioned, it does feel great when something finally drops after long camp...and conversely, if the drop rate isn't rare there is no feeling of accomplishment when something drops. 

    ...But also long camps extends the game content.  How many times has your main character attained absolutely, 100%, every single item/accomplishment it could possibly want in a game?...and then the same thing with your primary alt, before the next expansion is released?  This has happened to me multiple times.  That is the point when I tend to take a break from the game...or stop playing altogether. 

    I want things to do.  I have grown to love time sinks and grinds.  It keeps me playing.  It is much better than the alternative of becoming so bored that you quit.  Appreciate that there are still things left that you want to attain.

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun? the higher the death penalty, xp loss, death debuff, time to rejoin group, etc., the higher the risk aversion. dying will hurt. and past a certain point too many people get gun-shy. I have met people so scared of dying they wouldn't pull trash mobs until everyone was 100%. met people that were there for every raid farm night, but never for progressions. it is no coincidence that among the leaders in pve deaths in vanguard were some of the best players. they see a tough mob and say 'lets kill it,' not '50/50 chance we beat him, so we will go around.' you wipe to kotasoth 4 times once a week for a month or so, you go xp grind for an hour or so to get the xp back. sucks, but ok. if you would have half the raid lose a level or get a high debuff for an hour, or it takes an hour to reform for the next attempt, you get 1 maybe 2 pulls a night, which means twice as long to get the same number of pulls, which means likely 3 times as long to figure the rhythm of the fight. add in people skipping this week or that because they dont want to spend the time regaining xp... this doesn't make the fight more rewarding, interesting, or difficult, it only makes the fight more frustrating. if content is good, why would you want a death penalty so high as to make people avoid that content?

    all 4 things were in vanguard. from what i have read all 4 things were in EQ. each of these things has a value, but one that must be balanced. it seems, from what i have read on these forums, that they were much higher in EQ. my opinion is that, at least from a perspective of having fun, they were much better balanced in Vanguard, but i sincerly am interested in hearing opposing opinions.

    edit: highlight the questions since such a freaking long wall of text. but at least out of my brain. :)

    Death penalties aren't about making the gameplay fun.  You are correct in that it doesn't do that.  It is more about regulating how players interact with their surroundings imo.  It does make players more cautious, which is a good thing to a point.  It is impossible to balance a death penalty perfectly for all types of players.  Some players will end up being very risk adverse while others will still be risk takers. 

    The death penalty is there to limit zerging and running through content with meaningless consequences.  It is hard to define what exactly the appropriate consequences for death should be.  It isn't hard to define that there should be a consequence that is meaningful and makes players wary of dying.

    My take is that, in order to appease the target demographic who are looking for a challenging game, there will have to be some players that fail because of the difficulty level (of which exp loss is a direct consequence).  Maybe these are young kids or maybe they are just someone who is bad at games.   Maybe I will be fine for the first few levels but as the difficulty level increases I will start to die a lot and lose a lot of experience (more so than I generally gain).  The game will force me to become a better player if I want to continue advancing.  The reality is that maybe I won't want to put the time in to become a better player when I reach that stage and I won't be able to advance any farther.  This is part of it.  To make a game difficult and challenging enough to appeal to some players it will have to be too difficult and challenging for others.

    ^that is mostly rambling...

    The only thing that is easy to define is that there should be meaningful consequences in place that make players try to avoid death.

    • 107 posts
    June 28, 2016 11:09 AM PDT

    i am not going to respond to each post since, but instead will make one post, hopefully not as long as the original.

    first thanks for responses. i hope it is not so much as a sneeze, since i really do hope to understand.

    i think discribing vanguard as instant gratification is a bit of a stretch. while not quite so long as EQ, perhaps, i am not instant gratification player, as i tried to establish. i am in fact one of the grindiest players you may ever meet, i just don't want grind for the sake of grind.

    regarding camping, i disagree with the idea of it being hard. i think of hard as in difficult. a relatively easy fight that you must do 500 times is still relatively easy. perhaps a valid example would be when i worked as a security guard. it was incredibly easy work (99.95% of the time.) working with autistic kids is far more difficult work  but far more intrinsically rewarding. so i am not advocating easy, but difficult over tediuos. why is 50 hour camp better than a fight that takes 50 hours to learn? how does killing Lord BAMF for the 150th time in 2 days add to immersion?

    also, i am wondering how much these features depends on population base, since there is much depending on the kindness of others.

    comparing EQ or it is wow, i think is dishonest. vanguard did not have the community isues i saw in wow. vanguard was not a lobby game. vanguard was not lvl 5 gets instant travel anywhere (rifts needed to be unlocked first so you had to run to the gestalts for psi spells, for example.)


    This post was edited by alephen at June 28, 2016 11:14 AM PDT
    • 1434 posts
    June 28, 2016 12:45 PM PDT

    This is the old skill check vs time requirement debate. One side claims item rarity or time sinks are irrelevant to challenge and insist that if they possess the skill, they should be rewarded for it. The other side claims that skill alone cannot determine reward and that time and chance must be a factor if items are to be valuable.

    I believe B is correct for a virtual world, and A is correct for other games. It goes back to instant gratification. In reality things of value are rare and require work and time to acquire. Sometimes it takes longer to get what you deserve than it does for others. Thats life in a nutshell.

    There is no way around the time factor if items are to have any intrinsic value. Otherwise your most skilled players would just farm the items and be the best equipped and wealthiest players in the game. That isn't a fun scenario for most people. Its bad for balance, progression, the economy and for business (game longevity).

    We are talking about a game that is based on a persistent world; a world where players are meant to spend considerable time to progress their character. It involves navigating through and overcoming challenges and setbacks of all sorts. Without the time factor, the illusion of a world is shattered. It just becomes another game and your accomplishments devoid of meaning.

    • 89 posts
    June 28, 2016 1:17 PM PDT

    Hokanu gets it.

    • 178 posts
    June 28, 2016 1:44 PM PDT

    My reponse comes from someone who played EQ1 since beta (testing archery and Innothule Swamp - never did seem to get the z-axis (water) correct, but no big deal) and someone who was and is very much a casual player with little raiding expience, and someone who has been in the D&D world since the 70's (watched Tom Hanks in Mazes and Monsters), and has never played VG. But, I, and many like me, dutifully play the games we subscribe to. Willingly contribute our monthly fees and play even if we don't get to experience all of the content that many others will experience. That being said, I feel my voice is a valid voice for subscription based games because we dutifully love them, accept them, promote them, and live and breathe these games since as casual players we need to be selective with our time.

    So, to address your four questions which, as was pointed out by Dullahan, are variations of "How can not having instant gratification be any fun?" Perhaps that wasn't the intent, but it comes across like that to me.

    1) How is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun? 

    It is not fun at all. It is horrible. If time is at a premium and it is a bunch of strangers you are trying to run to then don't bother. If it is a bunch of friends then a time commitment is required (for them to wait, for you to arrive, and then to play). As friends you can talk frankly to each other and the commitment is either there or it isn't. But it isn't fun which is why, as a casual player, arrangements are best made beforehand (which also contributes to the experience in a positive way). There was a lot of fun attempting to be at the gathering spots and log out beforehand (generally to a binding spot and not the actual adventure spot). So this question is moot if it doesn't have an aspect of instant gratification and entitlement to it.

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun? 

    It isn't. And it's not fun to everyone else having to deal with the spam. So the filters are on and they have no idea what you're selling. Or the filters are off and they don't care to buy what you're selling. Which is then an aspect of instant gratification and entitlement. Just becuase you made it doesn't mena someone wants to buy. This may be an ingenious way to suggest an auction house to marry up buyers and sellers to each at their convenience. But since this topic has been discussed at length with arguments to both sides there is no need to do so again.

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun?

    Probably depends on who you are playing with. Playing with friends or lively characters or those that can inject some humour or discussion into the experience and it is probably very fun. A bunch of strangers with a relatively routine mob/group probably equates to "no thank you." Don't do it. If you absolutely need that item and nothing else will do until you have that item then unless there is an instant gratification or entitlement aspect to it you are stuck with it and put in your time and effort, regardless (this was always a criticism of certain epic quests and certain drops and I believe is a valid complaint - but not one that I have been able to adequately formulate a solution to). Hopefully instances of 10+ hours of gameplay that is not fun is kept to a relatively low rate and infrequent.

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun?

    I am not against a high death penalty I am only against not having an option to retrieve a corpse after many failed corpse recovery attempts in which case gameplay is simply piling up corpses in an effort to not have to effectively call it "game over" and starting over. I know where I stand on the issue and I know where others stand on the issue. But if there is an aspect of time for corpse recovery before the corpse goes poof then it should be related to playstyle. High deathn penalty does add to the fun becuase of the inherent risk. There is something immensely satisfying in overcoming odds or emerging victorious out of what was thought to be certain death. Death penalty enhances that experience. Repeated death penalties with no hope detract from that experience.

    • 107 posts
    June 28, 2016 2:23 PM PDT

    i think bringing reality into the discussion is flawed. in reality time sinks do not get shinies. sure if you work at a minimum wage jobs 80 hours a week you can buy a nic*er* car, but you still are only grossing about 650 a week or $35 grand. GROSS. get a college degree (learn to play the real life game) and you are going to make more than that net, and in half the time. of course if you play the markets, irl you can make hundreds of millions just by using current cash to manipulate markets in your favor.

    btw nowhere did i say no time, simply a matter of where the balance on the slider of how much time it should take. i think if the slider is pushed too far we would all agree that it would be ignored. if a lvl 30 best in slot object had a 1 in a billion drop rate i doubt it would be so much camped.

    • 39 posts
    June 28, 2016 4:55 PM PDT

      

    1) How is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun? 

    I can agree to a degree but at the same time it can be fun when you are going through dangerous areas.

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun? 

    I agree with you completely and hope they at least go with a bazar system or something simular.

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun?

    I don't mind it for xping but for NM's I totally feel ya. Especially the more crazy 48hr, 72hr and weekly ones. >.>  

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun?

      They arent and I guess thats the point. However I think having multiple ones like xp loss, gear degridation and corps runs at the same time is to much. I think they should decide on one and go with that because you want to encourage people to go out and explore not discourage it. I play project gorgon and love their curse system they have in the game. If you go into a dungeon and die there is no penalty but if you fight boss mobs and lose you will get all manner of nasty curses which will only go away by beating the boss or hard to get potions. 

     


    This post was edited by Driven at June 28, 2016 5:23 PM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    June 28, 2016 6:00 PM PDT

    Deus Ex Machina= literally translated "god in machine" an ancient theatrical contrivance to move things along 

     To answer the below- as the deus ex machina contrivance did exist, let us accept the premise that the "Deus Ex Ludicrum"= literally translated "god in game" - also exists.

    Let me explain:

    alephen said:

    1) How is waiting a half hour for someone to reach you fun? how is running a half hour while they are waiting fun? 

    2) how is sitting and spamming area chat 'WTS weapons, PST' fun?

    3) how is camping the same mob/group of mobs for 10+ hours fun?

    4) how does punitively high death penalties make game play fun?

     

    1. The game borders you- directs you- guides you:

      Many starting cities were somewhat close to each other maybe a zone or two away- and any expanses between those cities seperated by allignment- evils close to evils, civilized close to civilised making the first experience with having to run to catch up to your friends- the game has you not run far.

    Then by extsnsion the game naturally makes you think about repercussions of travelling far- say, to deliver mail. A group is needed and dedication to the journey agreed (that may be interrupted due to RL time constraints- Ideally we all camp out, and camp back in, tomorrow at the same time)- the game teaches you punctuality in a manner of speaking( honor, keeping to your word, reliability, yada yada yada)

     2. That- was somehting not intended by the game,

    Interestingly enough it was organic in that- the Mass of Massivley Multiplayer On line Role Playing Gamers- did it themselves. Who'd a thunk? I'm with you- I'd rather be out there earning my goodies and adventuring- with friends of course. But I mean, if I happen to be in the area I may browse...a little, just to see  and maybe *eyes get glazed* take up a tradeskill- look at all those pelts!. And that tunnel was the largest and relatively safest place that was not in a crowded city where goods and evils could- trade.

    3.  You're right, its not.

    And- again this is not the game but rather a player choice and if I may be so bold an indicator of the kind of character you personally in RL bring to the game.

    For instance: you know of the item, and you are prepared to camp the item and so you do. You get the item, and then----get ready for character- you leave, having gotten it or----you go back to do it again for other non-game influnced reasons, like greed- - -and then - and this is personal--- you as a player see things like "need before greed" being tossed around and can decide- if you know what that really means or that it really doesnt mean what those people think it means. 

    And without consiously (sp?) doing it, you seek out like minded people- and end up making some friends and not others, even though the group was a good group. and the cool thing about this? no one knows but you :). Likewise you may not want to waste the time, not worth it- rather you accept it as it comes or- if you really really want it- it may be for sale in that tunnel. Otherwise I bet if you go there, you wont have to campt it for long and you will get lucky on a pop- provided it is not a pegasus.

     4. The game teaches you how to play your character well, if you let it.

    Most newbie dungeons are fairly close to starting cities so if you wipe- and you will hate wiping - its a fairly short run. In the stream- the level 10 characters were- a good distance away- not a half hour run away ( point 1) but enough of a distance to teach you to not want to have that happen again if it can be helped- so you start thinking about the encounter, paying attention- watching health bars, being "situartionally aware"...many have said how they SAW that miner come close and was CLEARLY aggroed bringing the train- I swear- I stood up in RL- like I would have in game. Making decisions when it gets pear shaped like "don't heal me!" or "Let me die! you run!" or even hearing "you, gate!" and forcing yourself to get out even though you really want to stay because of the group dynamics

    If you die and lose a level and your gear is deep in a dungeon and you have to re-mem spells because you cant use your new ones- and it will happen- Hopefully while in your 20's, trust me you will live and make it through and get your stuff and it may be late in RL but you will and accidentally become a better player for it because you will suddenly realize what you are capable of- without the level, armor or spells- and hopefully it will pleasantly ruprise you.  For those playing along at home, mine was Kaesora no one else was there- untill we recovered of course and were ready to leave lol!

     

    Bonus points for those infering Ludicrus from Liducrum- lol! I thought it wa appropriate, and fun

    *took out wall of text*


    This post was edited by Manouk at June 30, 2016 5:53 PM PDT