Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

I hate to ask, but can we expect serious player moderation?

    • 844 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:16 PM PDT

    I just watched a twitch streamer playing AA, and noticed in the faction chat someone descibing how the friend they played with had just died of cancer. With no hesitation the faction chat responded with heckling, trolling and ridiculing. It was mind-numbing to see.

    I mentioned it in the stream chat and of course a number of other viewers trolled right back that "what did I expect, it's the internet", and "people should know better than to say things like that in general chat", and so forth.

    Well aside from the obvious, that playing a game is not the general internet, you do not expect to be subjected to such mindless and disgusting individuals in a product you may pay for, much less see them allowed to proceed with no penalty, ban or removal.

    These types of outbursts in games of the past were directly dealt with and were covered by EULA's. There were methods to report their conversation and they would be dealt with. But modern games do not seem to give a care what is said no matter how racist, bigoted, misogynistic and otherwise it may be.

    Obviously tracking this type of behavior for large games with thousands of players is a chore. But personally I have little interest in playing any game that lets these types of players exist and this kind of hate speech to be the norm.

    What can I expect of Pantheon in regards to this currently common activity in modern MMO gaming?

    • 1468 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:25 PM PDT

    Difficult situation. On the one hand no one likes it when people spout hate speech but on the other end of the spectrum no one likes feeling censored in what they can and can't say. Hopefully the devs will come up with a decent middle ground where people can't be really out of order but can still be honest with each other. Lets not forget that this game will mainly be played (I assume) by adults and hopefully people will be able to talk as if it is an adult situation.

    I don't want to get banned just for daring to utter the odd rude word or perhaps giving a slightly controversial opinion. Adults should learn how to deal with people who they disagree with without running to the game moderators for help.

    So yeah I agree with you as long as the moderation is sensible. Too much moderation is almost as bad as too little in my mind.

    • 999 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:31 PM PDT
    Honestly - I'm tired of the PC world.

    I don't want terrible personal attacks in game, but I don't want over moderation either. Unfortunately - people are people whether you buy in or not. My thoughts are people on a whole today are generally more disrespectful overall - not just on the internet. Just look how many common courtesies don't occur anymore or are expected if they do without a thanks - like holding a door open for someone.

    Further, many things can be interpreted as offensive today that weren't considered that way in the old school age, which would make moderation much more difficult. So I'd propose a few steps.

    1 & 2. I want a good profanity /filter to be present in Pantheon along with an /ignore.

    3. And, if someone does make continued personal attacks, have a /report feature where GMs can intervene.

    4. Lasty, a good EULA should exist, but I want the community to be the first line of defense. If Pantheon's community is like what you describe of AA - there's no hope for it anyway. Make server reps matter again, player choices, etc. and most of the previous hinges on Pantheon's necessity to have forced grouping.

    Basically similar to my stance on griefing.
    • 2419 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:49 PM PDT

    Instead of insisting upon extensive rules governing what people can say to you (generic you, plural), how about you think first about blabbing personal garbage into global chat channels?  Why do people feel it necessary to spam personal details in public chat?  You need to talk to someone specific?  Send a tell.  Stop spamming global chat channels.

    • 839 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:50 PM PDT

    Man the story you describe makes me sick inside and the internet is rife with it. peoples detatched attitude to fellow humans online is unbelievable. Thanks for being considerate voice in this world Zewtastic!  Cromulent is right unfortunately there is no perfect solution.  But I would hope that rules of conduct are applied and of course something dealing with like intentionally trying to cause mental anguish and grief to someone should be able to be reported and I would hope some action be taken regarding this. 

    Another great example why we need to move more towards humane education as being an intergral part of the curriculum world wide especially when teaching kids to completely understand there is no difference in severity between saying somthing in person and online and those user names n a forum or comments section are attached to living, breathing & feeling people.  Children are now growing up with this kind of behaviour as a norm and expected and that is not going to do well for society in general over time.  And unfortunately the Donald Trump train has come in to take the normalisation of this behaviour to the next level. 

    • 3016 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:51 PM PDT

    One main thing that is missing today online is empathy...most seem not to know what the word means or care what it means.    The only thing I do is block that person (specially if they have cruel things to say about others because that boosts their own shallow ego) and once done,  that person is invisible to me,  will never receive my help etc.   The thing I see, is people seem to condone this behavior somehow its hilarious to bully others anonymously.      A report feature might be an idea,  but do your own moderation and block the person.   Maybe they'll get the hint.     A community is a community when we all work together...

    • 1468 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:52 PM PDT

    Raidan said:Make server reps matter again, player choices, etc. and most of the previous hinges on Pantheon's necessity to have forced grouping.

    Honestly I think this is all we really need. Pantheon should really be self policing with people really caring about their own reputation and making sure that they don't give themselves a bad name in the eyes of the rest of the community.

    On the flip side I hope the community is mature enough to forgive the occasional mistake that a player might make. I know that sometimes in the heat of the moment I might say something offensive and stupid. But I'm human and make mistakes. Hopefully the community will recognise this in people and won't just black list them over a single silly error that someone has made.

    • 3016 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:57 PM PDT

    Someone being deliberately cruel as described by the OP is not a single mistake...those people pride themselves on being cruel to others.    I hope our community is like what the community was in vanilla EQ...if you act detestibly...you are shunned.  

    • 151 posts
    June 15, 2016 6:58 PM PDT
    I am against over moderation. It isn't the job of the developers to babysit us. My solution is to tie a person's characters to their account in a way that gives everyone the ability to see that account. If the community really is a good one it will police itself. Once someone has a rep for being an ass it will stick to them. They won't be able to be an ass on one character and then swap to their main and escape.

    If that's doesn't work then the community here is not what you are looking for and you have to deal with it or move on. Kind of like real life. Less regulation more freedom.
    • 1468 posts
    June 15, 2016 7:06 PM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Someone being deliberately cruel as described by the OP is not a single mistake...those people pride themselves on being cruel to others.    I hope our community is like what the community was in vanilla EQ...if you act detestibly...you are shunned.  

    I wasn't using the OPs example as the basis for what I posted but regardless people do and will say things that are offensive to others. Shunning someone for one mistake is a pretty immature way to respond. It is like children sending someone to coventry because they said something they disagree with or did something that was different from the norm. I'd hope that the Pantheon community was a more mature place where mistakes made by people are understood as such. We have all said something stupid and offensive at least once in our lives if not a hell of a lot more failing to understand that in others is a mistake.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_to_Coventry

    • 839 posts
    June 15, 2016 7:11 PM PDT

    Raidan said:  1 & 2. I want a good profanity /filter to be present in Pantheon along with an /ignore. 3. And, if someone does make continued personal attacks, have a /report feature where GMs can intervene. 4. Lasty, a good EULA should exist, but I want the community to be the first line of defense. If Pantheon's community is like what you describe of AA - there's no hope for it anyway. Make server reps matter again, player choices, etc. and most of the previous hinges on Pantheon's necessity to have forced grouping. Basically similar to my stance on griefing.

     

    that approach you listed is fine, this is how it should be absolutely. 

    PC culture is here because things are getting out of hand and the new generation is not equipped to deal with it emotionally nor are they being taught not to be a part of it.  PC culture is also important as the global community increases and the world moves to a society of acceptance of all people of things that previously were not (race, sex pref, sexism etc) We need to help some people get to that level of acceptance and drawing a line in the sand is one approach. however continuing to deepen PC list of no no's is not the way to combat it, real humane education is the only way because  too many parents give little to no thought about educating their kids to be wonderful people not just to get a job and they let their kids go rampant especially with the internet being a huge tool for learning now and almost every aspect of it having a social interaction of some sort from comments sections to forums

    /ignore is definitely the best answer initially for someone who is being attacked in game.


    This post was edited by Hokanu at June 15, 2016 7:18 PM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    June 15, 2016 7:23 PM PDT

    I like those ideas, Raidan,

    and I wonder  what if CanadianXegony's idea was fully manifest? As certain raid mobs would be "greyed out" to you, but attackable by others- could the "/ignore" function have degrees of severity where the Player character would be "greyed out" or invisible to you.  You could be right in front of them when they yell for help and seem incredibly aloof- maybe prompting the person you greyed-out to grey you out- lol.  The option would also be there to un-toggle the severe /ignore because in time- things may have changed.

    • 3016 posts
    June 15, 2016 7:28 PM PDT

    Cromulent said:

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Someone being deliberately cruel as described by the OP is not a single mistake...those people pride themselves on being cruel to others.    I hope our community is like what the community was in vanilla EQ...if you act detestibly...you are shunned.  

    I wasn't using the OPs example as the basis for what I posted but regardless people do and will say things that are offensive to others. Shunning someone for one mistake is a pretty immature way to respond. It is like children sending someone to coventry because they said something they disagree with or did something that was different from the norm. I'd hope that the Pantheon community was a more mature place where mistakes made by people are understood as such. We have all said something stupid and offensive at least once in our lives if not a hell of a lot more failing to understand that in others is a mistake.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_to_Coventry

     

    I usually don't put someone on ignore for one "mistake"  if it is habitual it will get my personal ban.   If I am paying for a game and time on the server I don't want to have to endure someone else's malarkey on a constant basis.   If this behaviour is a pattern then there is certainly no immaturity in deciding you won't put up with it any more.    Enduring it for the sake of appearing more mature just seems rather pointless.   At any rate that has been my solution since I started gaming back in the 90's.     I watched the constant trolling on some of the preferred chats in Rift on my server,  and it just got to the point there were only certain chats I would listen in on ..namely guild chat and personal chats with friends.    

    • 3016 posts
    June 15, 2016 7:50 PM PDT

    Manouk said:

    I like those ideas, Raidan,

    and I wonder  what if CanadianXegony's idea was fully manifest? As certain raid mobs would be "greyed out" to you, but attackable by others- could the "/ignore" function have degrees of severity where the Player character would be "greyed out" or invisible to you.  You could be right in front of them when they yell for help and seem incredibly aloof- maybe prompting the person you greyed-out to grey you out- lol.  The option would also be there to un-toggle the severe /ignore because in time- things may have changed.

     

    Any game I have played usually has the toggle to unignore...  If they grey me out that's fine with me Manouk :P

    • 1468 posts
    June 15, 2016 8:03 PM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Cromulent said:

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Someone being deliberately cruel as described by the OP is not a single mistake...those people pride themselves on being cruel to others.    I hope our community is like what the community was in vanilla EQ...if you act detestibly...you are shunned.  

    I wasn't using the OPs example as the basis for what I posted but regardless people do and will say things that are offensive to others. Shunning someone for one mistake is a pretty immature way to respond. It is like children sending someone to coventry because they said something they disagree with or did something that was different from the norm. I'd hope that the Pantheon community was a more mature place where mistakes made by people are understood as such. We have all said something stupid and offensive at least once in our lives if not a hell of a lot more failing to understand that in others is a mistake.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_to_Coventry

    I usually don't put someone on ignore for one "mistake"  if it is habitual it will get my personal ban.   If I am paying for a game and time on the server I don't want to have to endure someone else's malarkey on a constant basis.   If this behaviour is a pattern then there is certainly no immaturity in deciding you won't put up with it any more.    Enduring it for the sake of appearing more mature just seems rather pointless.   At any rate that has been my solution since I started gaming back in the 90's.     I watched the constant trolling on some of the preferred chats in Rift on my server,  and it just got to the point there were only certain chats I would listen in on ..namely guild chat and personal chats with friends.    

    If you feel it is in your best interest to ignore certain players that is fine and completely understandable. Of course if someone is constantly behaving in a bad way then I can totally understand why you would do that. Sometimes you just want to play the game to relax without having to deal with people being rude to you all the time.

    I'm just hoping that such measures won't be needed because the server population of Pantheon will be a bit more mature than that and we won't have people like that on the servers in the first place.

    • 156 posts
    June 15, 2016 8:06 PM PDT

    Have a basic profanity filter for those that want it and let the players moderate everything else on their own. Some clown runs around spouting hate speech, use /ignore, don't party with them and use social connections to get other to do them same. If the chat is so bad, use /report so a GM can point out how idiotic they are and maybe get them banned after multiple warnings and/or deemed against the TOS/EULA.

    • 132 posts
    June 15, 2016 9:30 PM PDT

    I am going with Vandraad on this one. A gaming channel and death of a loved one or friend is NOT the place to talk about it. 

    Log out and go talk to friends and family about it.  Do you think that a bunch of children on the internet give a crap what happened to anyone?

    /filter for bad words.

    /ignore for trolls

    /report for harassment

    it's not game makers place to police "feelings" getting hurt because people chose to share their personal lives in a place that it doesn't belong.  

    Do I think it's terrible that people have no heart? sure. 

    Do I share personal, heart breaking news with forums or in twitch streams expecting sympathy or empathy? NO. 

    People need to learn the internet and facebook is not a caring, loving place. Go talk to the humans that are right in front of you about Life. 

    People are so involved with staring at their facebook feeds, they don't even know their own family anymore.

    Turn the computer, tv and (most important) your phone off and go talk to them. 

     

     


    This post was edited by Medjai at June 15, 2016 9:35 PM PDT
    • 839 posts
    June 15, 2016 11:26 PM PDT

    Would be awesome to see a community that actively seeks to mass /ignore those who troll to a nasty degree,  A community driven general chat call to action to /ignore "that person" raised by a single player that people rally behind for the greater good would be great to see happen!

    • 1434 posts
    June 15, 2016 11:40 PM PDT

    A game without global chat that is also highly dependent on cooperative play will curb a lot of these problems.

    Trolls want an audience to inflict their dribble on or it takes a lot of the fun out of trolling. With global chat, it means that the people whom you offend will likely have no direct consequence on your play as they are probably of different levels and in different places. When limited to local chat, what you say may directly impact your ability for find a group and progress in the game.

    These chat problems and trolling in general also seem to scale in direct proportion to the players ability to solo. The more players need each other, the more reputation will matter. I'm not saying it will entirely abolish chat trolls, but the more players depend on each other, the less common it will be.

    • 1303 posts
    June 16, 2016 4:12 AM PDT

    I'm with others here in believing (hoping) that a lack of global chat and an emphasis on the need for cooperative play will mitigate a lot of this kind of behavior. It might start out with some of that kind of thing, but over time those who cant play well with others will find that they cant seem to get anyone to help them do anything, and will leave or change. This is of course true only to a degree, and ignore filters will help weed out a lot of the rest. 

    @Vandraad 
    I hate to say this, but that attitude is not a hell of a lot different than the trolls and asshats we're talking about. If you dont care to participate in the conversation, don't. Ignore the person if it bothers you. But there's no reason to be a jerk. It's this exact lack of empathy that's completely screwing society. Not just the internet, but society. 

    • 9115 posts
    June 16, 2016 5:00 AM PDT

    I would like to point out that this is also highly dependent on the maturity of our community, our community is a lot less toxic than most others out there and while we will still see incidents like this occur, it is reasonable to assume that it would be uncommon and would usually result in the community /ignoring the person and taking note of their name for future reference or if it is completely disrupting the server, a GM would intervene and resolve the issue rather quickly, I wouldn't worry too much about our game, it is what the community makes it to be and from what I have seen over the last 2 years, I think with VR and the community working together, we will be fine ;)

    • 769 posts
    June 16, 2016 6:02 AM PDT

    I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion with many, but I 100% agree with Zewtastic, and will furthermore say that in a case of an MMO or something I'm purchasing to enjoy, being PC isn't such a bad idea.

    There is a lot of hate going around these days about things being too PC. A lot of folks spouting on about how they shouldn't be censored from saying what they want to say, and using that as a way of not being held accountable for what they say as well. One may argue that since THEY purchased this product, they should be allowed to speak their mind however they want - to which my response would be if you want to sit at the grown-ups table, act like a grown-up. If you want to act like a child that doesn't know how to keep their mouths shut, especially on a topic where there is absolutely no reason to be caustic or contrary - such as in the scenario Zewtastic described - you should most certainly, positively, and with a quickness, be penalized for it.

    Being PC has it's place. We can rail at the world and the powers that be all we want, but if we lived in a world that was not PC to any extent, I doubt many would like it that much. The complaints, I think, only come when someone is personally affected by it without thinking of it in a global or community sense. It's a "How dare you censor ME", and rarely is there condemnation when that persons life is better and easier due to those around them being held accountable for their words and action.

    In the real world it's different. I don't pay to be in the real world. If somebody directs their hate at me, I have options, one of which being able to grow into my final form (nerd references are fun) and hold that person accountable myself. Or I can walk away without the fear of that individual being able to reroll and continue their nonsense. We don't have that luxury in an MMO. The only defense we have is the EULA and GM intervention. I disagree that the community can handle these types affectively. How many of you know a player that will most certainly choose to not invite a player because they're bad at their class, or because they're a known ninja-looter, but wouldn't give 1 single F that they said despicable things to an unfortunate random player? I bet pretty much everyone.

    Look, I'm not saying I want censorship. I'm not saying I want someone to be banned for calling me a "PC loving b***h". I can handle myself, and I've never actually reported a person in my entire MMO life. One reason being - as has been mentioned - I don't air out my public laundry in general chat. What I'm saying is that I want attacks of maliciousness and hate with no provocation, such as what Zewtastic described, to be handled swiftly and mercilessly. We live in a world where the things you say and do have consequences. That shouldn't change just because you're paying to join a virtual world.

    =Edit= I want to say that I do agree with the prevalent thought that I don't see this community having this issue. I really don't. I'm talking in a general sense here

     


    This post was edited by Tralyan at June 16, 2016 6:03 AM PDT
    • 104 posts
    June 16, 2016 6:04 AM PDT

    I love the thing Blizzard is doing in Overwatch where they perma-ban cheaters. I would like to see the same thing happen in MMOs to people who shout racial slurs, sexual harassment, etc.

    • 1303 posts
    June 16, 2016 8:57 AM PDT

    While I agree that there's a line that should not be crossed, I think perma-bans for people guilty of basically just being rude is way over the top. When did we decide that no one can ever be offended? When did we become so thin-skinned and incapable of just ignoring jerks? I can totally see why you would never wantt o interact with a person that does those kinds of things again. /Ignore accomplishes that.  Screaming that you want no one to ever hear something you dont like is just... (forgive the irony of this statement in its context) ...  childish.

     

    • 428 posts
    June 16, 2016 9:04 AM PDT

    Or people can grow some skin and ignore people.  /ignore is an amazing feature.  

    As for thinking that the community will shun players you are dreaming.  It might shun low geared average  players. but if a fully raid geared tank that is the best player in his class is a giant jerk is looking for a group or guild they will accept him in about 2 seconds.  I speak from experaince on this issue.  

     

     Most people cry about anything that breaks the community feel or immersion.  That means you need to take the good with the bad just like in real life your gaming experaince will have Mean rude bullies thats part of the game just like its part of life.  It hasnt hurt EVE EQ or EQ2 and it wont hurt Pantheon