I have always enjoyed grouping with slightly larger groups of people (2-4 groups-ish) in a normal camp or dungeon crawl style of gameplay. Sure, taking down raid bosses is fun too, but there is a certain charm to a more open ended style of gameplay where the raid boss isn't the ultimate goal.
It could be camping for exp or for loot or whatever just like a normal group, but you are fighting mobs that 1 group couldn't normally defeat so you need to bring a few extra friends. With more people there is more of a social aspect to gameplay and it also isn't about killing that raid mob for "phat raid drop loots"...though there can still be nice loot, just not usually to the same extreme as killing a raid boss.
Areas like this make for a nice stepping stone level of content that is above standard 1 group content, but below miniboss/smaller raid content, and well below full blown raid mobs, that I find very enjoyable.
I am hoping this kind of thing will be more common in Pantheon than it often is in other games.
Are these types of encounters something other people are interested in as well?
Edit: These types of areas also produce an added bonus that an expansion or 2 later it ends up being standard, 1 group, content that people can play through. It ends up extending the life of the area a bit.
Honestly, I wouldn't see it working out too well unless it's a raid zone. Similar to VP or VT. Multi group stuff generally has to have some loot incentive in order to justify the coordination of the group. Now if Pantheon gave an XP boost for raids then maybe that would be a thing but if that was the case then why not just make the normal group size bigger since everyone would do it.
Enitzu said:Honestly, I wouldn't see it working out too well unless it's a raid zone. Similar to VP or VT. Multi group stuff generally has to have some loot incentive in order to justify the coordination of the group. Now if Pantheon gave an XP boost for raids then maybe that would be a thing but if that was the case then why not just make the normal group size bigger since everyone would do it.
You are right in that there always has to be some incentive for people to go there. That is a given with any zone. And maybe there does need to be a bit of extra incentive required because of the slightly greater difficulty in getting a larger number of people together? Usually loot that scales with the difficulty is easy enough to implement, better than single group loot but no where near raid loot type of reward. Or exp bonus works too like you mentioned.
Also, like you mention Enitzu, the way this kind of content is often implemented is in a "raid zone" and the two-four group mobs are "yard trash". I am fine with that too (if there is some type of incentive like you mention), but that doesn't have to be the only way it is implemented.
This can also be stand alone content that is separate from raid mobs...with it's own, lesser than raid mob, loot table etc.
Your two examples are interesting though, did you mean Temple of Veeshan and not Veeshans Peak? ToV is one place I did enjoy this 2-4 group style of play. I don't remember non-raid mobs in VP and Vex Thall being worthwhile to kill on their own if you weren't killing the boss mobs. That is an example of needing incentive...thus the reason no one went there just to kill them (of course I am referring to the time when that content was current).
I'm not sure if you are someone who enjoys this style of gameplay as much as I do? but I think we are on the same page.
philo said:Enitzu said:Honestly, I wouldn't see it working out too well unless it's a raid zone. Similar to VP or VT. Multi group stuff generally has to have some loot incentive in order to justify the coordination of the group. Now if Pantheon gave an XP boost for raids then maybe that would be a thing but if that was the case then why not just make the normal group size bigger since everyone would do it.
You are right in that there always has to be some incentive for people to go there. That is a given with any zone. And maybe there does need to be a bit of extra incentive required because of the slightly greater difficulty in getting a larger number of people together? Usually loot that scales with the difficulty is easy enough to implement, better than single group loot but no where near raid loot type of reward. Or exp bonus works too like you mentioned.
Also, like you mention Enitzu, the way this kind of content is often implemented is in a "raid zone" and the two-four group mobs are "yard trash". I am fine with that too (if there is some type of incentive like you mention), but that doesn't have to be the only way it is implemented.
This can also be stand alone content that is separate from raid mobs...with it's own, lesser than raid mob, loot table etc.
Your two examples are interesting though, did you mean Temple of Veeshan and not Veeshans Peak? ToV is one place I did enjoy this 2-4 group style of play. I don't remember non-raid mobs in VP and Vex Thall being worthwhile to kill on their own if you weren't killing the boss mobs. That is an example of needing incentive...thus the reason no one went there just to kill them (of course I am referring to the time when that content was current).
I'm not sure if you are someone who enjoys this style of gameplay as much as I do? but I think we are on the same page.
I like the idea of raid content being available for a wide range of different raid sizes. Some mobs should be tuned for 2 - 4 groups and other mobs should be tuned for a full 72 man raid. That way everyone should be able to tackle something. The big guilds will be able to raid the 72 man content while the small guilds will have 2 - 4 group content. Obviously raid mobs tuned for 72 man raids should give much better gear but the gear you get from 2 - 4 group raid mobs should be passable.
I also like the idea of getting good XP from raids. That would certainly pull people together and get them working together if they thought that they could get some decent XP from the experience.
Cromulent said:philo said:Enitzu said:Honestly, I wouldn't see it working out too well unless it's a raid zone. Similar to VP or VT. Multi group stuff generally has to have some loot incentive in order to justify the coordination of the group. Now if Pantheon gave an XP boost for raids then maybe that would be a thing but if that was the case then why not just make the normal group size bigger since everyone would do it.
You are right in that there always has to be some incentive for people to go there. That is a given with any zone. And maybe there does need to be a bit of extra incentive required because of the slightly greater difficulty in getting a larger number of people together? Usually loot that scales with the difficulty is easy enough to implement, better than single group loot but no where near raid loot type of reward. Or exp bonus works too like you mentioned.
Also, like you mention Enitzu, the way this kind of content is often implemented is in a "raid zone" and the two-four group mobs are "yard trash". I am fine with that too (if there is some type of incentive like you mention), but that doesn't have to be the only way it is implemented.
This can also be stand alone content that is separate from raid mobs...with it's own, lesser than raid mob, loot table etc.
Your two examples are interesting though, did you mean Temple of Veeshan and not Veeshans Peak? ToV is one place I did enjoy this 2-4 group style of play. I don't remember non-raid mobs in VP and Vex Thall being worthwhile to kill on their own if you weren't killing the boss mobs. That is an example of needing incentive...thus the reason no one went there just to kill them (of course I am referring to the time when that content was current).
I'm not sure if you are someone who enjoys this style of gameplay as much as I do? but I think we are on the same page.
I like the idea of raid content being available for a wide range of different raid sizes. Some mobs should be tuned for 2 - 4 groups and other mobs should be tuned for a full 72 man raid. That way everyone should be able to tackle something. The big guilds will be able to raid the 72 man content while the small guilds will have 2 - 4 group content. Obviously raid mobs tuned for 72 man raids should give much better gear but the gear you get from 2 - 4 group raid mobs should be passable.
I also like the idea of getting good XP from raids. That would certainly pull people together and get them working together if they thought that they could get some decent XP from the experience.
I feel like the way your response is worded that you may have misunderstood the point of the thread Cromulent...and I'm hoping Kilsin understood as well with his response but he didn't mention specifics so I am unsure?
This is specifically about "Non-raid" content. Of course there will be named bosses and minibosses that end up being raid targets for a variety of group sizes. Yes, you will have to clear to get to them in most cases. That is a given and not in question. That isn't what this is about.
This is about areas where you can grind for exp...and maybe a bit of loot, though loot isn't usually the focus like in raids, with more than 1 group of players (because the content has been scaled so that it is too dificult for 1 group). What I am referring to usually doesn't include a boss fight.
Just normal exp camp type of areas tuned to a difficulty of 2-4 groups where you can sit for hours killing respawns...but, of course, there needs to be some sort of incentive for being there since you aren't downing that "boss" mob for raid loot. That is what I am hoping for.
Does that explain it a bit better?
These type of areas are always rare and hard to find in mmos.
philo said:Cromulent said:philo said:Enitzu said:Honestly, I wouldn't see it working out too well unless it's a raid zone. Similar to VP or VT. Multi group stuff generally has to have some loot incentive in order to justify the coordination of the group. Now if Pantheon gave an XP boost for raids then maybe that would be a thing but if that was the case then why not just make the normal group size bigger since everyone would do it.
You are right in that there always has to be some incentive for people to go there. That is a given with any zone. And maybe there does need to be a bit of extra incentive required because of the slightly greater difficulty in getting a larger number of people together? Usually loot that scales with the difficulty is easy enough to implement, better than single group loot but no where near raid loot type of reward. Or exp bonus works too like you mentioned.
Also, like you mention Enitzu, the way this kind of content is often implemented is in a "raid zone" and the two-four group mobs are "yard trash". I am fine with that too (if there is some type of incentive like you mention), but that doesn't have to be the only way it is implemented.
This can also be stand alone content that is separate from raid mobs...with it's own, lesser than raid mob, loot table etc.
Your two examples are interesting though, did you mean Temple of Veeshan and not Veeshans Peak? ToV is one place I did enjoy this 2-4 group style of play. I don't remember non-raid mobs in VP and Vex Thall being worthwhile to kill on their own if you weren't killing the boss mobs. That is an example of needing incentive...thus the reason no one went there just to kill them (of course I am referring to the time when that content was current).
I'm not sure if you are someone who enjoys this style of gameplay as much as I do? but I think we are on the same page.
I like the idea of raid content being available for a wide range of different raid sizes. Some mobs should be tuned for 2 - 4 groups and other mobs should be tuned for a full 72 man raid. That way everyone should be able to tackle something. The big guilds will be able to raid the 72 man content while the small guilds will have 2 - 4 group content. Obviously raid mobs tuned for 72 man raids should give much better gear but the gear you get from 2 - 4 group raid mobs should be passable.
I also like the idea of getting good XP from raids. That would certainly pull people together and get them working together if they thought that they could get some decent XP from the experience.
I feel like the way your response is worded that you may have misunderstood the point of the thread Cromulent...and I'm hoping Kilsin understood as well with his response but he didn't mention specifics so I am unsure?
This is specifically about "Non-raid" content. Of course there will be named bosses and minibosses that end up being raid targets for a variety of group sizes. Yes, you will have to clear to get to them in most cases. That is a given and not in question. That isn't what this is about.
This is about areas where you can grind for exp...and maybe a bit of loot, though loot isn't usually the focus like in raids, with more than 1 group of players (because the content has been scaled so that it is too dificult for 1 group). What I am referring to usually doesn't include a boss fight.
Just normal exp camp type of areas tuned to a difficulty of 2-4 groups where you can sit for hours killing respawns...but, of course, there needs to be some sort of incentive for being there since you aren't downing that "boss" mob for raid loot. That is what I am hoping for.
Does that explain it a bit better?
These type of areas are always rare and hard to find in mmos.
A raid is any content that takes more than one group to complete therefore any content designed for 2 - 4 groups is by very definition a raid. A small raid but still a raid. Just because they are fighting trash mobs rather than named bosses doesn't stop it being a raid. So saying content for 2 - 4 groups that isn't a raid doesn't make any sense.
From what I have heard group sizes haven't been decided yet but they are likely to be either 6 people large or 8 people large if other games are anything to go. So anything over that would be considered a raid.
Edit: If we assume for the moment that a full group in Pantheon is 6 players then it would be like saying I want content designed for 6 people that isn't group content. It just doesn't make any sense. 6 people equals a group. 2 to 4 groups equals a raid.
Cromulent said:philo said:Cromulent said:philo said:Enitzu said:Honestly, I wouldn't see it working out too well unless it's a raid zone. Similar to VP or VT. Multi group stuff generally has to have some loot incentive in order to justify the coordination of the group. Now if Pantheon gave an XP boost for raids then maybe that would be a thing but if that was the case then why not just make the normal group size bigger since everyone would do it.
You are right in that there always has to be some incentive for people to go there. That is a given with any zone. And maybe there does need to be a bit of extra incentive required because of the slightly greater difficulty in getting a larger number of people together? Usually loot that scales with the difficulty is easy enough to implement, better than single group loot but no where near raid loot type of reward. Or exp bonus works too like you mentioned.
Also, like you mention Enitzu, the way this kind of content is often implemented is in a "raid zone" and the two-four group mobs are "yard trash". I am fine with that too (if there is some type of incentive like you mention), but that doesn't have to be the only way it is implemented.
This can also be stand alone content that is separate from raid mobs...with it's own, lesser than raid mob, loot table etc.
Your two examples are interesting though, did you mean Temple of Veeshan and not Veeshans Peak? ToV is one place I did enjoy this 2-4 group style of play. I don't remember non-raid mobs in VP and Vex Thall being worthwhile to kill on their own if you weren't killing the boss mobs. That is an example of needing incentive...thus the reason no one went there just to kill them (of course I am referring to the time when that content was current).
I'm not sure if you are someone who enjoys this style of gameplay as much as I do? but I think we are on the same page.
I like the idea of raid content being available for a wide range of different raid sizes. Some mobs should be tuned for 2 - 4 groups and other mobs should be tuned for a full 72 man raid. That way everyone should be able to tackle something. The big guilds will be able to raid the 72 man content while the small guilds will have 2 - 4 group content. Obviously raid mobs tuned for 72 man raids should give much better gear but the gear you get from 2 - 4 group raid mobs should be passable.
I also like the idea of getting good XP from raids. That would certainly pull people together and get them working together if they thought that they could get some decent XP from the experience.
I feel like the way your response is worded that you may have misunderstood the point of the thread Cromulent...and I'm hoping Kilsin understood as well with his response but he didn't mention specifics so I am unsure?
This is specifically about "Non-raid" content. Of course there will be named bosses and minibosses that end up being raid targets for a variety of group sizes. Yes, you will have to clear to get to them in most cases. That is a given and not in question. That isn't what this is about.
This is about areas where you can grind for exp...and maybe a bit of loot, though loot isn't usually the focus like in raids, with more than 1 group of players (because the content has been scaled so that it is too dificult for 1 group). What I am referring to usually doesn't include a boss fight.
Just normal exp camp type of areas tuned to a difficulty of 2-4 groups where you can sit for hours killing respawns...but, of course, there needs to be some sort of incentive for being there since you aren't downing that "boss" mob for raid loot. That is what I am hoping for.
Does that explain it a bit better?
These type of areas are always rare and hard to find in mmos.
A raid is any content that takes more than one group to complete therefore any content designed for 2 - 4 groups is by very definition a raid. A small raid but still a raid. Just because they are fighting trash mobs rather than named bosses doesn't stop it being a raid. So saying content for 2 - 4 groups that isn't a raid doesn't make any sense.
From what I have heard group sizes haven't been decided yet but they are likely to be either 6 people large or 8 people large if other games are anything to go. So anything over that would be considered a raid.
Why do you define a raid as any content that requires more than 1 group? Surely there should be a raid target for an encounter to be considered a raid?
I don't want to argue semantics. For this discussion, in order to define what iis being discussed, there needs to be a way to differentiate between raid content that is tuned for a small number of groups, and a more casual encounter, non-raid content designed,for 2-4 groups.
Do you at least see the difference now that the definition of the word "raid" isn't the confusion?...and understand what kind of content I am hoping for? I am unsure if I am explaining it well?
philo said:Cromulent said:Why do you define a raid as any content that requires more than 1 group? Surely there should be a raid target for an encounter to be considered a raid?
I don't want to argue semantics. For this discussion, in order to define what iis being discussed, there needs to be a way to differentiate between raid content that is tuned for a small number of groups, and a more casual encounter, non-raid content designed,for 2-4 groups.
Do you at least see the difference now that the definition of the word "raid" isn't the confusion? I am unsure if I am explaining it well?
I'm in agreement with Crom that a raid is typically anything over 1 group. You don't need any target to create a 'raid'. A raid, from the MMOs I've played, simply is formed when you group 2 groups together.
But I understand what you are saying Philo. You are basically asking for small raid content that doesn't require bosses to be killed. You, at least from what I can tell, are simply asking for content for more than 1 group of players where you can simply go for xp or even have more in depth fights with lesser mobs. Maybe instead of a 'raid' boss, there are areas where there are just too many mobs for one group to handle. Or the mobs are harder like 'raid' trash mobs but aren't 'raid' boss hard either.
NoobieDoo said:
But I understand what you are saying Philo. You are basically asking for small raid content that doesn't require bosses to be killed. You, at least from what I can tell, are simply asking for content for more than 1 group of players where you can simply go for xp or even have more in depth fights with lesser mobs. Maybe instead of a 'raid' boss, there are areas where there are just too many mobs for one group to handle. Or the mobs are harder like 'raid' trash mobs but aren't 'raid' boss hard either.
Yep, thanks for the confirmation that I am explaining it ok.
A lot of it has to do with the spawn time of mobs. It should be in an area where mobs respawn in a reasonable amount of time so you can continue to kill them. In many areas that are tuned to the number of people being discussed the spawn time is so slow that it doesn't lend itself to grinding/grouping.
You could have something like a large dragon or maybe a goblin army or something attacking a village for resources and players must join to defend the villages and push them back. FFXI had something like that in besieged and campaign, and you could do this either solo, or with as many as a full alliance of 18 people. The exp you received wasn't as great as grouping up and going after appropriate mobs but it was nice while lfp, and also affected the zone heavily when players failed or were successful. In besieged you actually lost some npcs and in the worst case scenario when the city lost you would loose this thing(whose name escapes me atm) that gave players a exp buff in the whole region, as well as various other bonuses.
Now that I think about it Rift had something like this with its actual Rift system. The Rifts would open up all over the world and players could join multiple groups together and fight all the enemies. Some had bosses but most of these bosses weren't as hard as a boss designed for a raid zone. Most of the time though it would be just mass waves of mobs with possibly nameds at the end of the encounter.
There was an area like that in eq. Gnolls would raid the village every so often and kill quest npcs etc if they werent stopped.
Though this was another example of the incentive not being there (actually maybe I was just to high of a level by the time it was implemented I think?).
It definitely wasn't a "multiple group required" to kill a mob type of situation. All of this conversation relies on the content being scaled to being harder than is doable for 1 group of max level players, otherwise players will just wait until they are higher level and do it with 1 group.
All it ended up being was a couple people protecting one quest npc if they had turn ins to do
philo said:There was an area like that in eq. Gnolls would raid the village every so often and kill quest npcs etc if they werent stopped.
Though this was another example of the incentive not being there (actually maybe I was just to high of a level by the time it was implemented I think?).
It definitely wasn't a "multiple group required" to kill a mob type of situation. All of this conversation relies on the content being scaled to being harder than is doable for 1 group of max level players, otherwise players will just wait until they are higher level and do it with 1 group.
All it ended up being was a couple people protecting one quest npc if they had turn ins to do
I haven't played eq so I can't comment on that but in ffxi, the mobs and bosses were variations of bosses in the zone that would drop gear. But during this time of besieged they joined together and became an army! The content was balanced in such a way that half the server would still have trouble dealing with the armies, and it was total mayhem. And losing the Astral condolence(I remember what it was called!) Really hurt your progression through that particular region. The actual content felt like a city being ravaged while you desperately fought to defend it, I remember the frantic shouts of more experienced players directing people toward key bosses to take down, alerting people to mobs and bosses with certain quirks, pleading for aid to protect one of the npcs generals and the numerous shouts for raises.
Imagine a few variations of some eq bosses attacking a vital capital city, knowing that if you do not defend the city you can loose access to some important npcs,maybe loose a few key trading routes strangling the city of its income, take it a step further and if we don't protect and rebuild the city after attacks, maybe it crumbles to the ground becoming an abandoned ruin of a once great city. Create a more dynamic world for us where exp and loot isn't the only thing motivating us
