What I'll propose here is a method that provides what I percieve as the same benefits of the Progeny system, without the need to eliminate a player's main character. It could perhaps be called Legacy or Lineage. The reason I started considering a method like this is that I like the concept of an account-wide advancement mechanism, but highly dislike the thought of deleting a character that I have invested in. If I loved the game and it's play enough to really develop a character, the last thing I want to do is (effectively) delete that character.
Percieved Benefits of Progeny (based purely on my limited knowledge and where I think the devs might be going with it) :
What I propose is that a player be allowed to designate a character on their account as the Patriarch or Matriarch. This character is exactly like all others on the account, and is advanced as all others are. The designation of Matriarch or Patriarch can only be applied when the character is max level. An account can only ever have one 'living' Matriarch or Patriarch.
After the Matriarch or Patriarch is designated, when the player creates a new character they have the ability (but not requirement) to mark that new character as a Decendent of the Matriarch or Patriarch. If they do so, the new character is subject to limitations. These may include:
It is possible (but not required) to create a Decendent that is the same race/class combination as the Matriarch/Patriarch.
For every major accomplishment of the Decedent, the Matriarch or Patriarch gains Status. Status is a game mechanic that can take many forms. It would certainly include things like faction adjustments, but would also translate into power. Power might take the form of influence like better merchant prices thru fear/respect. This would not be a direct faction adjustement but rather a general reputation of the family that adjusts reactions. Power might instead take the form of access. As the family name becomes more prominent certain prestigious figures in the gameworld who would not have otherwise taken note, might instead allow an audience for the Matriarch or Patriarch, and as a result open new questlines. Or indeed, if that pominence were significant enough the Matriarch or Patriarch might be granted access to libraries that contain ancient magical tomes, or granted training by legendary masters of arms.
The point being, as you advance more characters and accomplish greater things, your designated Matriarch or Patriarch gains benefit. It promotes the notion that a character on an advancement path is not the whole of the game, while also allowing those who feel a degree of investment in a character the ability to retain that character they.. love (?).
All benefits granted to the Lineage assume that the accomplishement are completed at appropriate levels for the characters in question. Additionally, if a Decendent were to simply repeat the path of advancement that the Matriarch, Patriarch or any other Decendent had pursued, all benefits would be scaled down notably. However, if the Decendent were to complete things that were not done (always at an approprieate level) that no others of the entire Lineage had accomplished, all benefits would be higher.
The idea could of course be expanded so that all who are part of the Lineage are subject to a degree of the benefits. More access to training/power/etc. But the Matriarch or Patriarch should retain the primary benefits of the system.
If the player were ever to choose to, they could re-designate Matriarch or Patriarch status to another for their characters, but only to those that were created as a decendent. Doing so would remove any benefits granted to the former Matriarch or Patriarch. It may well even cripple the Status of that character, having been deposed and no longer respected.
If you really wanted to ratchet this idea up another level, you could allow a Matriarch or Patriarch to die. Doing so would give some degree of Status to all decendents, and require a new designation of Matriarch or Patriarch to an existing Decendent.
This would allow those who embrace the idea of account-wide influence to participate. It would increase game playabilty significantly, giving a tangile and purposeful advancement account wide for re-rolling. It would give a direct and meaningful reason to participate in game content that players would otherwise skip or circumvent. It provides the ability to further advance the one character we truly feel is our main, while exploring the rest of the game's posibiliities. And it stil gives that extra path to either retire a character without losing a beloved memory, or fully eliminating a character for the benefits of others.
I think I like this better than retiring a char. But I think it would be easier if they combined this with some sort of max with an AA system. That way you could go all AAs or Progeny or some mix of both but couldnt max both out.
Keeping it really simple: You have 10 total points.
You can put all 10 into either.
Or 5/5
Or 3/7
etc....
Obviously it would need to be a bit more complex than that (like certain traits/skills cost more than others or how many points one reincarnation should count) but thats the gist of it.
There doesn't seem to be much difference in your idea and the proposed one. Though it doesn't seem to make much sense that you would be able to play an alt that affects your main characters power (no that is not what is happening in the proposed progeny system).
I think you might be worrying to much about the whole "retire" your character definition. That is just how it is being explained because "progeny" is about offspring. In other games I have played with a similar game design they call it "ascension" Your character ascends. Ascends means you start anew with a bonus skill from your last life. That is basically the same concept.
I have to ask you to talk about your experience with a system like this? It seems like there is a disconnect in your thought process. Maybe it's me and this system will end up being nothing like other games has had, I guess we really don't know, but it seems very similar.
You aren't actually retiring your character. You aren't playing an alt. It is still your main character. You are just adding a II or III or IV title to its name and restarting the leveling process.
Theoretically, for the sake of a realistic explanation, they are saying it's your offspring; but really it is still you playing your same character. You decide what class/race to play. The only difference is you gain a bonus skill from your past "play through" and you restart at lvl 1. Gear is a non-issue. I'm guessing they let you keep it...otherwise you transfer it to an alt before you restart. If a system is not included that lets you keep no drop gear (i'd be surprised if it wasn't)...that is where this is a slight detriment but, as most of us know, there will always be gear upgrades later. That is a wait and see as far as no drop items.
It is still your main character. It just gives you an option to replay lower level content with that character at the proper level...and it gives you an incentive bonus to do it that makes you more powerful in the long run.
I dont have any experience with any system like this. So my view is definately tainted by by ignorance. But what I keep hearing people describe seems to be replaying the advancement of a class that I already played to get a new max. That seems really artificial to me. (And for some stupid reason I keep hearing the Spinal Tap quote, "But ours go to eleven").
Perhaps you could describe why I'm misunderstanding?
Amsai said:Here is the main question. How do you incentivise the progeny system to be attractive enough to use for those that choose to without it becoming a mandatory thing for Raids or even more mundane content?
Is this not exactly what has happened with DDO?
I'm actually not at all interested in incentivising progeny, because I have no desire to delete a character or redo the advancement of a class. That's kind of the point of offering an alternative.
And the incentive of the alternative is pretty clearly outlined.
Feyshtey said:I dont have any experience with any system like this. So my view is definately tainted by by ignorance. But what I keep hearing people describe seems to be replaying the advancement of a class that I already played to get a new max. That seems really artificial to me. (And for some stupid reason I keep hearing the Spinal Tap quote, "But ours go to eleven").
Perhaps you could describe why I'm misunderstanding?
Well I tried to describe it a bit. You still have your main character. Nothing is different except that you have the option to earn extra bonus skills by playing through the levels again.
The thing is, it is a way to extend the "life" of content. How many games have you ran out of content in? It is an issue. This is a solution to that for both players and game designers.
With proper planning you won't "be replaying the advancement of a class that I already played to get a new max". The designers point of view, and something Kilsin repeated over and over in the facebook/twitter questions etc is that it is optional content. Nothing is forcing you to do it. My point of view is slightly different...
Maybe you feel the same as I do? If there is a "new max" like you said, to be thought of by your peers as a good player, eventually, everyone will be expected to do whatever it takes to achieve that maximum. It isn't really optional if you want to be accepted/included by other gamers and not thought of as someone who is bad at the game. While that is a whole other conversation and not talking about the specifics of the system, I think it hits on the issue directly.
The thing is, I think you understand why this would be implemented. I think the underlying issue you might be having, as was evident in your post in the other thread, is not wanting to spend years worth of play time to gain a few extra skills because you are worried that you might be viewed by others negatively if you don't. Otherwise there is no reason to be against it.
This extends content. It keeps players having something to do during lags in content releases. It gives players incentives to replay that content. That is all this is.
Please try to look at it from a general health of the game in the long run perspective and not your personal view based on what you want for your character or your play time.
I know I will probably struggle with not being able to be the "hardcore" player I once was. I will have to learn to be ok with it. I think that is the main issue here?
Can you have a progeny of a different race?- I think that would allow a fresh experience in a portion of the world your main never needed to set foot in.
And likewise maybe create a "seeking your roots" type quest where the new character needs to travel back to the home place of the main, or something.
and its all very catharticaly arduous and rich with meaning and possibly re-discovered stringent laws of behavior or diet- heh- that the "new" character will embrace with fervent abandon to the irksome dismay of their friends.
Feyshtey said:Amsai said:Here is the main question. How do you incentivise the progeny system to be attractive enough to use for those that choose to without it becoming a mandatory thing for Raids or even more mundane content?
Is this not exactly what has happened with DDO?
I'm actually not at all interested in incentivising progeny, because I have no desire to delete a character or redo the advancement of a class. That's kind of the point of offering an alternative.
And the incentive of the alternative is pretty clearly outlined.
I know thats kinda what my point was. In what way could it be implemented and still be truly optional. Because from my current understanding how could it be anything other than mandatory for harcore content or min/maxers?
Amsai said:Here is the main question. How do you incentivise the progeny system to be attractive enough to use for those that choose to without it becoming a mandatory thing for Raids or even more mundane content?
Is this not exactly what has happened with DDO?
The way the system is, for high end raiders it will end up being mandatory.
Players will have a few options.
1)They can accept the fact that they aren't deemed "worthy" of those guilds (most wouldn't be anyway) and play through content later in its lifespan with other, like minded individuals.
2)They can work on their characters at a slower pace and apply to those guilds once they catch up using the progeny system (Kilsin has said that the amount of time you can restart with the progeny system will be limited). You will be able to catch up.
3)They can be bleeding edge players who earn the max progeny bonuses asap
Amsai said:I know thats kinda what my point was. In what way could it be implemented and still be truly optional. Because from my current understanding how could it be anything other than mandatory for harcore content or min/maxers?
What is the downside if it is? They have to level alts? Is that smething that a min/maxer will find overly burdensome?
I don't have a problem with the progeny system as has been described. It's probably not something I would utilize until several years into the game. If you are a min-maxer you already know you are going to restart your character anyway once you realise you didn't allocate your stats perfectly. :)
As long as game balance doesn't hinge on progeny bonuses, it sounds fine.
@Amsai
I can respect that. I feel the same about my main most times. But the system proposed by VR is meant to promote replayability and to maximize content that they create. At least that's my take on the purpose. It's unlikly the system is just there to be interesting. It's there to make you spend more time in places you've already fully fleshed out with another character. Wouldnt being forced to play the same content with the same race/class 2, 3 or more times just to get that min/max for your end-game goals be really irritating? Wouldn't it be at least somewhat more interesting to get the same end-results on your main, but have new experiences with alts in the process?
Feyshtey said:@Amsai
I can respect that. I feel the same about my main most times. But the system proposed by VR is meant to promote replayability and to maximize content that they create. At least that's my take on the purpose. It's unlikly the system is just there to be interesting. It's there to make you spend more time in places you've already fully fleshed out with another character. Wouldnt being forced to play the same content with the same race/class 2, 3 or more times just to get that min/max for your end-game goals be really irritating? Wouldn't it be at least somewhat more interesting to get the same end-results on your main, but have new experiences with alts in the process?
For what it's worth, Fey, I'm with you on this. I think the system you have described is very well thought out and feels like a viable alternative to me. I have no desire to relevel the same class multiple times in order to be on par with my peers. The whole thing feels grindy and false to me. I would much prefer to think of my main as the Matriarch of my family....how cool is that??
As I approach max level, I would rather be looking forward to having that opportunity.....instead of what I imagine will feel like a trudge to max knowing that in order to be competitive I will have to, what, delete my toon and start all over at the beginning? Bleh.
However, as others have stated, we really don't know a whole lot about the proposed progeny system as of yet. My thoughts/fears on this might be completely unfounded.
The way i see it is you have to give something to get something. Retiring the character is not mandatory but if you choose to do so you get to be a slightly better toon statistically or however they plan to make you better.
Think of it as risk vs reward. If you dont retire the toon you lose nothing but if you do you gain.
I personally dont mind the idea but will have to see how it works in game before i decide if i will do it or not.
Feyshtey said:@Amsai
I can respect that. I feel the same about my main most times. But the system proposed by VR is meant to promote replayability and to maximize content that they create. At least that's my take on the purpose. It's unlikly the system is just there to be interesting. It's there to make you spend more time in places you've already fully fleshed out with another character. Wouldnt being forced to play the same content with the same race/class 2, 3 or more times just to get that min/max for your end-game goals be really irritating? Wouldn't it be at least somewhat more interesting to get the same end-results on your main, but have new experiences with alts in the process?
I absolutely agree with it being interesting. I also think replayability and keeping olz zones active is a part of the plan in regards to this. But I listed my reasons and think Id just prefer AAs as my alternative advancement as opposed to progeny. So I wouldnt begrudge or be against those that want it, but would like an alternative for those that dont. That being said and despite what I said about alts, I will likely break my own rule at least once.
Seems pretty obvious that Bard wont make release. At this point I want it to be my main. Will I sit back for 6 months to a year waiting to play until they come out? Hell No!! ^.^
So likely will choose a class I like for now and can possibly gain good benefits from doing the progeny thing in order to make my Bard. Thats loosely the plan, but dont have enough details on existing classes or the progeny system to fully commit to that idea. So there we are.
@Amsai
Hahaha ! I want my main to be Necromancer! So we're totally on the same page there. And I love (LOVE) AA systems. I'd much rather grind AA's on a character I really think is great than play a character I dont just to advance my main. (Not to say grinding out AA is a perfect approach.. just sayin... )
So in the Prrogeny system you will play a characer for 6 months to a year and retire him to play a bard. I'd rather play a couple of other characters, start building up a family reputation, and than transfer the house leadership to a character I love at a later date.
I don't really see much of a difference in the proposed system and that of a player who twinks a new character using his previously acquired wealth.
That said, I don't really have a problem with the lineage option existing along side the progeny system. I just think the progeny character would be worthy of a better bonus because it required actually sacrificing a character. The benefits inherited through lineage should be rather insignificant as the character will already have the advantage of the player's knowledge and parent character's wealth.
I don't really see much of a difference in the proposed system and that of a player who twinks a new character using his previously acquired wealth.
The significant difference is that while your main can certainly enhance the power of your alts thru gifted items/cash, there's not currently a system I'm aware of to allow your alts to enchance your main. That's the fundimental reason for an alteranative to progeny, so there is a path to enhancing your main when you're stagnated and end-game without having to sacrifice that main to reroll and reply him again for an incremental enhancement.
Good post Feyshtey!
I am curious to see this in action. For replay ability I think it is interesting and runs parallel to some other posts but this offers a few tweaks that may need a deeper look.
So you are saying if I retire or park one character I can level a second and the first also benefits? Maybe I read that wrong.
Ox
There have been a few threads concerning the Progeny System so far. It is times like this that I wish there was a poll function we could make use of, as from my viewpoint it seems that at least insofar as the population of these forums go, most people are against this mechanic. The consensus seems to be that nobody wants to lose a character that they have invested so much time, energy, and even emotion into. I agree with that sentiment, however I'm not sure if that's coloring my perception of it's popularity. I'd like a second opinion on that. I'd also like to hear, after getting so much feedback from us, the Dev's feedback on where they stand with this mechanic now.
I'd like to stress that I'm not attempting to cause any friction here. I'm genuinely interested to hear:
1. If I'm correct/incorrect in my assessment that the vast majority of folks here on this forum are against a mechanic that makes you main character unplayable after a certain amount of time regardless of the perks given to subsquent characters.
And
2. After the feedback the developers have received, what's in the air in regards to this feature?
I concede that I very well may be a victim of a false consesus effect here.
=Edit= I also concede @Fey, that I may be mis-reading your original post as well. I apologize for that.
I am not a fan of the retirement requirement. Beyond that, I'm really excited about anything/everything related to progeny. I feel that it can solve so many problems ... and the more people who use it, the healthier each server will be. So this brings me back to my first sentence ... why create such a massive barrier to entry that will ultimately prevent a bunch of people from using it? Imagine in real life if there was a way to help cure sickness and prevent hunger around the world. All you have to do is be in good health, between the age of 30-40, and sacrifice yourself! If you sacrifice yourself, 50 random people in the world will have their sickness purged, and be granted a reliable food source for the rest of their life.
We're basically talking about a miracle here ... but how many people do you think will actually follow through with it? We could have the answer to two major problems at our fingertips ... but I don't think those problems would go away. No matter how great the reward is, the cost is just too high. That's kind of how I view the retirement requirement. It could deter a lot of people from participating and thus void out their potential contribution to the world. How do we maximize the potential of a feature like this? What will be the determining factor to encourage people to utilize it? To be clear ... I am 100% sold on the benefits of progeny. My only concern is that the cost to participate will be too high for a lot of people and that the feature doesen't end up being leveraged to it's full potential.
I'd honestly just rather the leveling takes 4x longer than have to progeny 4 times...
Bring me back to the days where getting to max level took the better part of a year and then right about the time I'm max level hit me with a high quality expansion and I'll be around for a long time.
As soon as groups and raids stop accepting people because of how many times they have rerolled it will be a sad day...
I'd even be for hell levels like in EQ1 originally instead of having to reroll my main character. These levels served a purpose of bunching everyone up and I think helped groups form in those level ranges. Especially if there is a nice juicy dungeon right around the same level.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~