Forums » The Cleric

Clerics and Ressurrect

    • 2060 posts
    September 12, 2018 4:53 PM PDT

    annabelle said:

    I'm wondering if any class has a mass rez?

    I really hope it is planned, preferably as something requiring 2-3 healers to perform. 

    • 90 posts
    September 13, 2018 9:47 AM PDT

    So say all healers can cast the same resurection in terms of exp recovery and of course can heal equally to more or less 99% what should the cleric have that make them somewhat wanted (special)

    this is just a hypothethical question ? mostly to those who want the above.This is brought upp because the cleric really dont have that mutch dps,solocapability.utility,debuffs as there fellow healers.

    attleast that is what i get from this discussion above.

    • 400 posts
    September 13, 2018 10:04 AM PDT

    Um well in EQ they had stuns, and undead spells making them potent in undead areas. They had flash of light and can wear plate armor making them more durable than the other healers. They had the best AC/HP buffs. They had a lot of things going for them, not including their raw healing power and rezing capabilities. People who complained about clerics not having a lot of things to do probably just duo boxed a cleric as a heal bot or never played a cleric to its full potential. What people are equating is out of combat utility the druids have, with no out of combat utility the clerics have. This gave clerics a way bigger advantage in groups because most of what the druid can do is useless in a group. So yea, fun times.

     

    So, the solution is to add more out of combat utility so the clerics feel more special I guess with more things they can do that they can't do in groups. I don't know what that would entail, but basically that is what should be done so the healers have a more leveled play field when it comes to healing output and access to rezing.

    • 400 posts
    September 13, 2018 10:04 AM PDT

    Double post


    This post was edited by Watemper at September 13, 2018 10:09 AM PDT
    • 2060 posts
    September 13, 2018 4:58 PM PDT

    A better question is what is so special about resurrection/exp recovery that would make clerics feel okay with their end of things? The reason clerics were so desired in EQ was because they blew other "healers" out of the water, it wasn't even close. If all healers were equal in healing then clerics would more than likely have ended up just being resurrection bots and otherwise unwanted.

     

    They need something else to be their utility & group combat draw - if they are in fact lacking outside of heals compared to druid/shaman, but resurrection is not the answer. 

    • 90 posts
    September 14, 2018 3:50 AM PDT

    The only thing i hear is how mutch better cleric was in eq? and guess what this is not eq so reference from that is kinda ...wrong.

    this is a new game named pantheon rise of the fallen where the classes are different yes ?

    So what we know is that healing are more or less on par with all healing classes. All healing classes have resurect (dont forget paladin) thats actually more than classes that have the ability to use plate armor !

    yes the only class that is stated to have a exp recovery is cleric, on a note druids ability is even more powerfull (perhaps) as it saves the victim from dying in the first place, so if we speculate ! no dying no loss of exp.

    yep it looks like cleric have the best ac/hp buffs in the game but dont forgett that both druids and shaman have ac buffs and who knows they might not be so bad (shamans ac buff is a grp buff witch is always nice in terms off laziness).

    yeah cleric can use plate mail but we hit like a plankton..no really we have the worst dps in the game (counting meele and spells) so i am not really that impressed by heavy gear.

    yepp we have dps against undead or so they say but is that really that great ? How many undead are there in terms of encounter 10% perhaps if we are optimistic even 20% thats bad (overall number)

    just think like what if the shaman only could slow 10-20% of the mobs or the druids snare in the same pott i would guess some would just choke on the morning java.But hey everyone is like =) be happy you can scratch undead >< 

    so far in terms of a controlling a battle on any extent like slow,snare,haste,stuns nothing have been reelesed in the sneak peak for the cleric.

    we really dont have a pet ...we can summon a tome but to my understanding have to forsaken a weapon slot or shield slot (unsure about witch one)

    Jikes with my big mouth and bad sense of humor what in the blazing scrapyard have the cleric even going for them. yeah iksar i know what you mean the best way is probobly  to put him to rest with the rest of all the dead gods i mean not a single suggestion anywhere...not that anyone cares but still...and one moderator thread, the one thats says cleric ??

    Lost identity/class......


    This post was edited by Aqua at September 14, 2018 4:13 AM PDT
    • 400 posts
    September 14, 2018 12:48 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    A better question is what is so special about resurrection/exp recovery that would make clerics feel okay with their end of things? The reason clerics were so desired in EQ was because they blew other "healers" out of the water, it wasn't even close. If all healers were equal in healing then clerics would more than likely have ended up just being resurrection bots and otherwise unwanted.

     

    They need something else to be their utility & group combat draw - if they are in fact lacking outside of heals compared to druid/shaman, but resurrection is not the answer. 

    Well my experience was simply the rez. If a shaman and druid can maintain the group just as well as a cleric, doesn't mean you won't wipe.

    In terms of combat mechanics that Clerics had vs lets say a druid and shaman I will try to break them down as best as I can remember.

    Clerics - undead nukes(good amount of undead leveling areas in classic), stuns, best Ac/hp buffs, root, flash of light.

    Druids - root, snare, medicore HP and AC buff, dots, aoe dmg(no one ever used in leveling groups really unless it was like 5 or 6 druids snare kiting together a massive amount of mobs), dmg shield(out performed by mages), skin(out performed by clerics), charm animals(most group areas had no animals).

    Shamans- slow, huge array of buffs, canni, wolf pet, some debuffs.(never really played a shaman so I am sure there is more)

    So taking out the healing and rez aspect that is pretty much what eq had in terms of combat utility. Snares and roots were replaced by enchanter in group. Later on enchanter slow was good enough that you didn't really need a shaman for it. Higher end content druids never used dots in groups they were healing in because they took a lot of mana to cast.

    So, if we add an enchanter to every group, like in EQ when it was required later on in levels, and you do a neutral zone with no undead or animals, then you basically have:

    Cleric - stuns, Best AC/HP buffs, flash of light( can be used with warriors by having warrior stand close to the mob so the mob hits him no matter what threat is generated)

    Druid- dmg shield, medicore skin, maybe a low mana dot

    Shaman- canni, slow(still better than enchanters), wolf pet, huge array of buffs.

    Out of combat:

    Cleric - none really( if I am not including rezs)

    Druids - Ports, SoW

    Shaman - SoW, Shrink

     

    Anyways, I am sure there are more, but when you put in the healing clerics got insane aoe healing, and better healing in general for the mana cost. Druids much less in healing, and so did shamans, but shamans had slows and canni soo it made up for it if they didn't have an enchanter.

    So to me, it was pretty equal in terms of number of things you can do in groups, but many people equate the porting and sow as to druids have to suck at healing. So I just say give clerics some out of combat utility and usefulness.

    • 30 posts
    September 14, 2018 1:12 PM PDT

    Aqua said:

    The only thing i hear is how mutch better cleric was in eq? and guess what this is not eq so reference from that is kinda ...wrong.

    this is a new game named pantheon rise of the fallen where the classes are different yes ?

    So what we know is that healing are more or less on par with all healing classes. All healing classes have resurect (dont forget paladin) thats actually more than classes that have the ability to use plate armor !

    yes the only class that is stated to have a exp recovery is cleric, on a note druids ability is even more powerfull (perhaps) as it saves the victim from dying in the first place, so if we speculate ! no dying no loss of exp.

    yep it looks like cleric have the best ac/hp buffs in the game but dont forgett that both druids and shaman have ac buffs and who knows they might not be so bad (shamans ac buff is a grp buff witch is always nice in terms off laziness).

    yeah cleric can use plate mail but we hit like a plankton..no really we have the worst dps in the game (counting meele and spells) so i am not really that impressed by heavy gear.

    yepp we have dps against undead or so they say but is that really that great ? How many undead are there in terms of encounter 10% perhaps if we are optimistic even 20% thats bad (overall number)

    just think like what if the shaman only could slow 10-20% of the mobs or the druids snare in the same pott i would guess some would just choke on the morning java.But hey everyone is like =) be happy you can scratch undead >< 

    so far in terms of a controlling a battle on any extent like slow,snare,haste,stuns nothing have been reelesed in the sneak peak for the cleric.

    we really dont have a pet ...we can summon a tome but to my understanding have to forsaken a weapon slot or shield slot (unsure about witch one)

    Jikes with my big mouth and bad sense of humor what in the blazing scrapyard have the cleric even going for them. yeah iksar i know what you mean the best way is probobly  to put him to rest with the rest of all the dead gods i mean not a single suggestion anywhere...not that anyone cares but still...and one moderator thread, the one thats says cleric ??

    Lost identity/class......

     

    clerics, shamans and druids are Healer/Support/Utility classes.  comparing a cleric DPS ability to a shaman support/utility ability in terms of their effectiveness on mobs doesn't make sense.

    in terms of what clerics have going for them, plenty.  Two things that I see (other than an exp rez or in the druids case a rez at all) is a Pacify ability which will help with pulls and more impotantly the Signet of Refreshing that boosts combat resource accumulation that I do not see for Shaman and Druid. 

    It also looks like Clerics and Druids get an ability to lower Hate generation that Shamans don't get or have yet, I'm sure our glass cannon wizards and hate generating enchanters will appreciate this ability.  Then we have clerics ability to purge curses and the shaman purge disease and poison with the druid not having a purge ability at all.

    I don't see a loss of class identity at all, I see a modern game where all healing classes.....can heal, where one healing classes shouldn't heal so much better than the others that they are preferred while the others are shunned.

    To me what should "identify" your class is your look and how they play.  You should be able to line a cleric, shaman and druid up next to each other and tell right away which one is which and they should all perform their main duty of healing at similar levels but in a way that makes sense for their class.

    • 46 posts
    October 2, 2018 5:18 PM PDT

    There's a reason an EQ cleric's Sprinkler of Nem-Ankh epic was squarely for doing free rezzes. It's because that was a primary function they were known for, and needed to do well; enough that even their Epic was designed for it.

    I played a cleric forever in classic EQ, and all I ever loaded was: heals, rez, bufs and once in a while undead nukes.

    We were good at one thing: healing, and people who rolled clerics did so with the expectation that they would be playing the pre-eminent healer class that focused on that job. Others who wanted a more rounded, jack-of-all-trades combat role picked druids (hybrid heal/dps) or shaman (hybrid heal/dot/haste/slow). These other classes could also solo/kite INFINITELY better than a cleric which had 0% chance of soloing anything other than a blue undead mob. Each class has obvious pros and cons relative to the others.

    Giving a class with good dps options the ability to heal well too is a bad idea, assuming you want class interdependence and not soloing.

    Role diversity and interdependence is great, but often it is the fickle player-base that upends whatever the devs had in mind, for example by learning that "It's the combat abilities, stupid", hence ignoring a lot of the non-combat advantages (porting, long-term buffing) and skimping on the insurance policy abilities (evacs) in favor of the in-combat advantages a class contributed. Once those became irrelevant, many classes suffered since those abilities that were now ignored were initially part of the draw the devs foresaw for that class. So you just never know where the player base will end up on this.

    If you want to do what a cleric does, then roll a cleric. The class abilties are not hidden from anyone. If you deem it worth it to have slows, hastes, dots, hots, regens, or better dps at the expense of the best heals and rezzes, then roll a druid or shaman. Pretty simple. There are trade-offs and decisions to make because VR wants there to be.


    This post was edited by redgiant at October 2, 2018 5:25 PM PDT
    • 1194 posts
    October 2, 2018 10:34 PM PDT

    @redgiant

     

    While it was true for EQ, nothing but brad's existence can confirm thoses assertions. The viability of healer's classes in EQ ended to be more than a problem, and dot rotting or snare kiting weren't nearly as effective as grouping. You can't reduce some classes to soloing in an mmo designed for group play.

    • 421 posts
    October 3, 2018 7:28 AM PDT

    Redgiant said: If you deem it worth it to have slows, hastes, dots, hots, regens, or better dps at the expense of the best heals and rezzes, then roll a druid or shaman. Pretty simple. There are trade-offs and decisions to make because VR wants there to be.

    First off, we don't know for sure that 'Rezzes' from the Cleric will be 'best'. They have not clarified yet the exact nature of all the ressurection spells regarding experience back, or in combat limits. Joppa made it clear in his interview with Bazgrim that ALL the healers would have Ressurrections. There would just be different benefits and penalties.

    In my opinion if any class does NOT have a res that gives back experience then it's the same as not having a res spell at all since nobody (who's smart) would accept a res that doesn't give experience back. So my guess is that ALL healer classes will have a spell that gives experience back. We just don't know the specifics about them yet.

    As for 'best' heals... Joppa said that the 3 healers will each have their 'Forté' in healing. The clerics will have the highest single target heals numbers wise. But Shamans will have the strongest and quickest Heal over Time heals number wise. Druids will have indirect healing as their Forté.

    So trying to say Clerics heals are best simply because on a single target they can get the biggest single target direct heal, doesn't mean they have the best heals.

    • 1155 posts
    October 3, 2018 8:34 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    In my opinion if any class does NOT have a res that gives back experience then it's the same as not having a res spell at all since nobody (who's smart) would accept a res that doesn't give experience back. So my guess is that ALL healer classes will have a spell that gives experience back. We just don't know the specifics about them yet.

    I share your opinion.  If you look closely at the Cleric resurrection spells (it has 2) and the Shaman, the are some quite significant differences.

    Cleric:

    Resurrect - Returns XP, not usable in combat
    Plea of the Devout - No mention of returning XP, can be used in combat

    Shaman:

    Part the Veil - No mention of returning XP, cannot be used in combat
    Agewalkers Gift - If active allows Part the Veil to be used in combat but requires the Shaman to already be dead.

    I do not believe for an instant that Plea of the Devout, Part the Veil and Agewalkers Gift not mentioning restoring XP is an oversight or a typo.  We've been told, and it has been demonstrated in the live streams that upon returning to your corpse you do regain some of the XP you lost upon death.  But does that amount of XP restored equal that of what you get with Resurrect?  Nobody knows..and it brings up an interesting scenario:

    So you're in a group and you've died:  Do you let the cleric cast Plea of the Devout, returning you to your corpse while the group is in combat, knowing full well that the only XP you will regain will be that amount you get from looting your corpse.  Or do you make the cleric wait until the group is out of combat (if they win, that is) so he/she can cast Resurrect so you get back more XP (if that ends up being the case)? 

    What if, in this situation, you're the only tank in the group?  Without you there the chances the group can defeat the opponent(s) decreases, maybe drastically.  For the group to survive you might be forced to accept Plea of the Devout and the restoration of less XP than Resurrect would give you.  Another group member, perhaps one not critical to the survival of the group, could have the luxury of always waiting for Resurrect.

    This resurrection issue is one I am very closely following.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at October 3, 2018 8:35 AM PDT
    • 421 posts
    October 3, 2018 10:03 AM PDT

    Vandraad said: We've been told, and it has been demonstrated in the live streams that upon returning to your corpse you do regain some of the XP you lost upon death.

    I'm really interested if you could find this for me in the streams. In all the streams I have seen the game automatically resurrects the players at a set location near where they died and they have not needed to return to their corpse to get any items or experience back. The Devs then explained that this only occurs right now in Pre-Alpha stages because they have not yet decided how they are going to implement death penalty and it will be something they will test during Alpha when they can get more feedback from the community in Alpha.

    which brings up my next responce:

    Vandraad said: I do not believe for an instant that Plea of the Devout, Part the Veil and Agewalkers Gift not mentioning restoring XP is an oversight or a typo.

    Personally I think that this has to do with the fact that Clerics were put in the game very early in the cycle (ie One of the first classes created and implemented) and at that time they were working on the assumption that dying will cause a loss of experience. Later on, when they started working on the Shaman and Druid classes, they had already decided that Death Penalty was still under debate and so there was no longer the assumption that death will mean a loss of experience. So they didn't bother putting that into the Shaman and Druid spell descriptions because it's still not decided.

    Once Alpha gets going and they start showcasing some different idea's for death penalties, we may see experience loss as one way, but we may see no exp loss but perhaps a 'death' sickness debuff or something like that. I'm sure they have other ideas they will want to test as well.

    So for now, us worrying about spell descriptions and which res's will restore exp and which will not is not worth stressing over, because this will be tested and sorted when we go into Alpha phase testing.

     

    • 1155 posts
    October 3, 2018 10:30 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Vandraad said: We've been told, and it has been demonstrated in the live streams that upon returning to your corpse you do regain some of the XP you lost upon death.

    I'm really interested if you could find this for me in the streams. In all the streams I have seen the game automatically resurrects the players at a set location near where they died and they have not needed to return to their corpse to get any items or experience back. The Devs then explained that this only occurs right now in Pre-Alpha stages because they have not yet decided how they are going to implement death penalty and it will be something they will test during Alpha when they can get more feedback from the community in Alpha.

    If you watched closely in the early live streams you'll see that upon death the players did lose XP and when they returned (by whatever means) and looted their corpses some XP was returned.  This mechanic of restoring some XP upon returning to your corpse has been discussed by the developers on these forums for quite some time.  I will say it now:  XP loss has been and always will be a significant factor in the death penalty.  We know that item degration has been rejected, that item loss is also not happening. So XP loss is, by default, what you will feel most upon death.  What hasn't been decided as far as I know is if you will lose a level or if XP debt is instead implemented.

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/let-s-talk-death-penalty

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3353/death-penalty-idea

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3260/death-penalty-idea-s

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1299/the-sting-of-death

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3116/the-fear-of-death

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2558/making-death-impactful

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4305/the-birth-of-the-death-penalty

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3819/a-clear-discussion-on-death-penalty

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    which brings up my next responce:

    Vandraad said: I do not believe for an instant that Plea of the Devout, Part the Veil and Agewalkers Gift not mentioning restoring XP is an oversight or a typo.

    Personally I think that this has to do with the fact that Clerics were put in the game very early in the cycle (ie One of the first classes created and implemented) and at that time they were working on the assumption that dying will cause a loss of experience. Later on, when they started working on the Shaman and Druid classes, they had already decided that Death Penalty was still under debate and so there was no longer the assumption that death will mean a loss of experience. So they didn't bother putting that into the Shaman and Druid spell descriptions because it's still not decided.

    Once Alpha gets going and they start showcasing some different idea's for death penalties, we may see experience loss as one way, but we may see no exp loss but perhaps a 'death' sickness debuff or something like that. I'm sure they have other ideas they will want to test as well.

    So for now, us worrying about spell descriptions and which res's will restore exp and which will not is not worth stressing over, because this will be tested and sorted when we go into Alpha phase testing.

    The mention of restoring XP is such a unique component that only applies to a single spell/ability and that the very topic of returning XP upon resurrection has been discussed across dozens of threads for near on 5 years now and that there was such a updated class reveals were done in a relatively short time frame does not make me think this was a mere oversight.  I truly believe that the intent is that only Resurrect will return XP...an intent against which I am adamantly opposed.

    But as I said, what we have not seen in any live stream nor has any developer discussed is the difference, if any, in the XP you recooperate from returning to your corpse (by whatever means) or from Resurrect.  If they are one and the same, then having the mention XP restoring from Resurrect is moot.  It's irrelveant so as to be an unneeded mention.  But because it is mentioned I am inclined to believe Resurrect will restore more XP than simply returning to your corpse and looting it.

    • 30 posts
    October 3, 2018 1:54 PM PDT

    redgiant said:

    If you want to do what a cleric does, then roll a cleric. The class abilties are not hidden from anyone. If you deem it worth it to have slows, hastes, dots, hots, regens, or better dps at the expense of the best heals and rezzes, then roll a druid or shaman. Pretty simple. There are trade-offs and decisions to make because VR wants there to be.

     

    This is simply not what they have said about the classes.  They've made it clear that all healers will be able to heal all content equally, just in different ways.  Not that clerics will have the "best heals".

     

    This isn't EQ1, they've learned from their mistkaes and are simply not going that route, or at least I seriously hope they don't because I dropped money on the premise they weren't.  While this whole clerics have exp rez and other classes don't and the druid doesn't even have a rez spell yet has me a bit worried it is not too much yet.  I know they know what they're doing and I'm sure they wouldn't do something as silly as that.

     

    The trade offs you're talking about shouldn't be class defining abilities like heals or rez but utility and support spells.


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at October 4, 2018 8:26 AM PDT
    • 400 posts
    October 3, 2018 2:15 PM PDT

    ^ pretty much.

    If clerics get the best heals, then that will be the class that is the healer in the group. Won't change no matter how you try to spin it. There are going to be 3 healing classes: Cleric, Druid, and Shaman. All three will be able to heal a group efficently. Some may excel in certain situations, but in a neutral area these classes are going to be equal in terms of healing. Now in terms of how they heal and what other stuff they bring to the group will entirely be different. But pantheon, I pray, won't go down this route again of having one supreme healer over the others, because then why play the other healing classes.

    • 75 posts
    October 21, 2018 11:17 AM PDT

    I kinda hope that the cleric exp return upon res is fairly low. I will be annoyed if I res someone using the in-combat res only for it to be declined and waste my cool down, time and mana because they'd rather wait until the group finishes the fight or wipes entirely.

    In fact id rather see the exp return removed from resurrection, death is meant to sting.

    • 421 posts
    October 22, 2018 7:41 AM PDT

    Vandraad said: I will say it now:  XP loss has been and always will be a significant factor in the death penalty.

    Right now, yes XP loss is part of the planned death penalty. But they have spoken recently about the fact that some of this kind of thing are not set in stone at the moment and they do want to get feedback  from the Alpha Testers before making final decisions.

    For example, in the MMORPG Interview, Brad 'Aradune' spoke about this: MMORPG interview with Joppa and Aradune (35:37 - 39:24)

    I'm not going to take the time to quote it all here, but at 37:01 Brad specifically says that Death Penalty is one of the things that are not set in stone yet until the Testers have a chance to experience it and give feedback on how it works. And they may change it if needed.

    I would suggest that 'ressurrections returning or not returning experience' is also one of those things that they will want Tester feedback for before making final decisions.

    This is why Alpha in Pantheon is not just 'early access' like other games use it. They really are testing things out and finalizing their decisions for many of the balance things in the game before they open it for the public to beta.

    Vandraad said: I truly believe that the intent is that only Resurrect will return XP...an intent against which I am adamantly opposed.

    Well, since you are high enough pledge to be in the Alpha you will likely get a chance to voice your opinion on the subject and help them make those final decisions :-)