Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Keeping AOE DPS / AOE Taunting to a minimum

    • 839 posts
    April 14, 2016 12:38 AM PDT

    Hey all, not sure if this has been discussed before but i wanted to bring up AOE DPS and also as a side note AOE Taunting and find out what peoples feelings are on this style of play and this being a welcomed or (in my opinion) a NOT very welcomed addition to the game.  I feel like these 2 mechanics end up for lack of a better word cheapening the experience of the game and tactical decision making of a group. 

    In many of the current mmo's the dps war rages on and if your not aoe'ing then you may as well go home because in most circumstances all the mobs are dead before your one big single target super spell has even cast and the group is running off to the next set of mobs to rinse and repeat.  This style of play makes me just wonder what i am doing playing the game with little to no thought needed just a lot of aoe spamming... as i am sure many of the fans of the Pantheon concept have experienced a similar thougth as well and thats possibly part of the reason we are here supporting the Pantheon difference! 

    I was just wondering if people agreed that having a lot of AOE skills tends to steer a game play style in one direction only and makes most other skills hardly even necessary to mem let alone try to use in a group scenario.  I know that with original EQ the brutality of the agro system meant if your game enough to AoE in a group you better be ready to die fast or at least make your healer / tank or encahnter really upset when "stuff" hits the fan so that kinda brings me to my next point which is AOE taunting related.  This is the sure fire way to make tanking about as boring and brainless as it comes and it also allows for the above mentioned kind of AOE fest DPSing to take place hence why i am not a fan of it either. 

    So i am sure i am going to be yelled and jeered at for my opinion and those who love to win the dps race will be surely fond of AOE mania, but i feel that this game with its direction currrent and the tactical approach and potential slower pace style of play would maybe do best to move away from (not completely of course) but certainly to not not load every class up with AOE so we can fully explore the usefullness of every class and the combinations of those classes and allow casters / CC classes  to setup fights with mez's and roots and tanks to direct traffic with their targeted taunts and calling strategies and DPS work with these strategies to formulate the best way to take mobs down without everyone going in for an AOE or get out type of style of play.

    Keen to find out if i am on my own with this one or anyone else agrees?

    • 200 posts
    April 14, 2016 2:04 AM PDT

    Basically i agree. AoE-Taunt should be an emergency skill on a bigger cooldown IMHO. But i know the opposite situation. In World of Warcraft BC there is an instance named The Magister's Terrace. The third encounter were 5 mobs which were immune to taunt. Without mass CC is was nearly impossible to beat them especialy on heroic difficulty. Because the mobs had itself CC like AoE fear and the warrior and the rouge could easy two shot a player. It ended up with three mages in a 5 man group because mages had the best CC.

     

    Greetings


    This post was edited by Larirawiel at April 14, 2016 2:04 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    April 14, 2016 2:12 AM PDT

    I think you're right.  I played a Justicar in Rift recently and played through a Raid-level Instant Adventure (lol yup) pretty much by sticking on AoE taunt buff, using AoE damage and occassionally firing off AoE taunt ability if players hit monsters I'd just pulled and hadn't locked down properly.

    I like Rift in many ways, but in a lot of situations it can get pretty boring and certainly no challenge at all.

    I'm confident our new Pants (trying out an affectionate nickname here) will not be anything like that.  From what I've seen it already includes the good-old-days of crowd control being pretty much essential unless you want to move very slow and careful or enjoy very high risk.

    • 156 posts
    April 14, 2016 4:59 AM PDT

    I've played games where taunting was next to useless because aggro was generated in more unusual ways. For example, elves in a forest generated aggro towards any dwarves that were in the area  - this precluded the MT and OT from getting aggro (unless they were dwarves themselves). Servants of a cult generated aggro towards any clerics in the area. Undead in a dungeon also generated aggro against clerics. Knights and shiny warriors in another dungeon generated aggro against Rogues in the area etc..

    This was a wonderful addition to the usual spank and tank style, regardless of DPS or taunting done by a group.

    • 724 posts
    April 14, 2016 6:58 AM PDT

    I believe there were some nice opportunities in EQ to combine AE stun/taunt and PBAOE, in AEing groups. It was definitely not the usual route for groups, but why trying to prevent such opportunities? It was certainly still quite risky, if a stun didn't land, or a taunt failed, the group could be very dead very quickly :)

    • 769 posts
    April 14, 2016 7:09 AM PDT

    Was AoE taunting ever an issue? Genuine question. I'm not asking it was ever something implemented, as I know it was. I'm asking if it was ever something that was ever a problem, or was seen as overpowered.

    I mean, sure, I'm against having all powerful AoE force taunts that work all the time, every time. But I don't think there is anything wrong with, say, having one tank that excels at solo aggro for the big guys, and another tank that excels at moderate AoE taunting. It's all situational. Just make sure the AoE taunting is done in ways other than just "force taunt". Aggro leeching, AoT (Aggro over time AoE), mechanics that force members to act accordingly.

    Hopefully, the emphasis VR is putting on crowd control will make the mentality of AoE DPS'ing everything to the ground more of a detriment than a good strategy.

     

    • 58 posts
    April 14, 2016 9:45 AM PDT
    AOE taunts aren't the problem. The issue in those games was AOE damage was high and mob health low. Things die so fast threat isn't an issue even if you lose 1-2 out of the packs. Want to stop mass AOE speed runs. Make it so groups dread adds without solid CC. Make it so AOE damage isnt just as fast bringing down mutliple mobs 5-10 as focus damage is for 2-3. AOE taunts should have similar cooldowns as single but weaker strength so you have a good start on the next mob when the first is about to go down.
    • 35 posts
    April 14, 2016 11:34 AM PDT

    I think its fine as long as the risk of running Mass AoE groups is commensurate with the reward. It was a great way in Guk (EQ1) to level, but definitely dangerous. I have no problems with massive AOE abilities; it's living on the blades edge. 

    • 556 posts
    April 14, 2016 12:38 PM PDT

    AoE taunting shouldn't even exist in game imo. AoE dps is fine. Reason being is that if the tank can't easily build agro on all mobs then the aoe dps will pull mobs off him and the culprit would die. Same way it worked in early EQ. The only times you saw AoE grinding then was in places like HS when you went with a small raid of aoe dps (mage/wiz), 4-6 chanters to stun lock, couple clerics for rezs, and a few tanks to pull. Tanks round up lots of mobs bring them back and chanters stun locked them while the dps burned em down. Had to be done in raid and was terrible for xp but you landed some drops and decent cash. 

    • 839 posts
    April 14, 2016 4:44 PM PDT

    I think for the most part we are on the same page about this stuff, i am not advocating for AOE DPS and AOE Taunting to be removed completely but kept to a minimum in its effect and in the amount of classes that have it (similar to how it was dished out in EQ to a few select classes primarily) and also i guess if it ends up that most classes have AOE then to make sure we keep those skills fairly underpowered.  It seems like we all pretty much agree with this.  As long as the skills dont allow for a group to run around picking up a group of mobs whilst the tank easily and fairly effortlessly holds agro using AOE taunt and the group in turn easily DPS them down with AOE DPS.  

    I think Leafin nailed a big part of this with his comments, one of those being with the issue between health and dps when it comes to AOE and also the little to no danger of picking up adds as a result of this combination and the ease of DPSing your way out of anything. 

    In reply to Traylins question AoE taunting (for me) has been an issue in many MMOs but i am definitely not saying it was an issue in all! And like he went on to mention if it is overpowered then it is definitely an issue and that is i guess my main point.  If it is for instance geared in such a way that the tank can hold agro very easily with little effort and when paired with a group with powerful or even just an abundance of AOE spells / skills you end up with a very stale style of play which generally leads down one path which is tank grab all the agro with the use of one skill and then DPS kill all the mobs with the use of one type of skill and the good old cleric just has to heal the tank exclusively almost without ever having to change target.  I think this style of play will also then have 2 generally negative effects to peoples class choices i think, it will negate the need for CC classes to be chosen (because the tanks taunting CC is all you need) and it will also most likely direct peoples choices of a DPS class to be narrowed to the ones that can AOE the best because that overtime becomes the only way groups will start to operate.

    Enitzu has put forward a great exception to the fact, a very clever and unique way players put together some specific classes in a way that allows for a range of skills to be utilised in an interesting way that came with danger and minimal xp reward. But hats off to those that pioneered the tactic, i am all for outside the box style mechanics as long as they are not part of the every day way of playing the game!

     On another side note I think a taunting system that has a guaranteed timer in it is a terrible system and by the sound of it we will all agree with this, a taunting system like EQ has to be implemented where your generating agro and competing with dps to hold that agro based on numbers, the whole taunt and hold agro for 15 seconds no matter what is a cheap system i think, especially when AOE is combined with this.

    All really great suggestions by everyone here, i think there is a great balance that needs to be struck with these skills and i think these skills can potentially make or break the enjoyment of the game for people who are seeking a substancial challenge or at least vriety to the way they play the game and approach each group of mobs they are attacking.   This was my first post on the forums and its great to see we have such a mature range of voices willing to discuss concepts even if they dont agree with what is being posted!


    This post was edited by Hokanu at April 14, 2016 5:43 PM PDT
    • 37 posts
    April 28, 2016 11:44 PM PDT

    Let me start off as I normally do, and say I trust the Devs not to F*#$ this up. I think EQ1 was a great example of how to do this right, I also think WoW is a great way to screw this up. From what I have read so far, I belive this is the majority opinion.

    • 839 posts
    February 24, 2017 6:00 PM PST

    Bumping this to see if anyone has anything else to add, was also hoping to open it up to more general AoE discussion, whats too much, whats too little.  The title indicates that i want to less AoE and while that is one option i am also on the line of thinking to see AoE damage / root / mez etc have negative effects to casters like self mezzing, self rooting, high mana usage, short durations and large agro generation.

    This would be to make players think twice before spamming AoE skills and keeping CC important.  But also not making AoE CC too much of an easy way out to control a deadly situation.  This doesnt mean emergent gameplay like working our how to pull off an extremely dangerous (but rewarding) AoE group.. but this style of play MUST (in my opinion) come with grave danger and the possibility of it all going wrong at any moment with a loss of concentration.  EQ1 did AoE well.. it was dangerous to use and all AoE's skills had their own drawbacks... i'm hoping AoE is an area they use the EQ1 handbook for.  

    To also re-iterate the first point re taunting... AoE taunt being a powerful tool that grabs agro easily from mobs around you is the first step to pave the way for easy mode AoE DPS groups.. and that will (in my opinion again) change the face of the game and how it is played by everyone lining up for easy mode AoE dps bomb dropping groups (as per modern mmos) 

    Hope i am not breaking any rules bumping like this.

    • 191 posts
    February 24, 2017 6:14 PM PST

    Worth a bump.  AoE is tricky and needs to be handled with care.

    • 238 posts
    February 25, 2017 3:17 AM PST

    Have you tried playing BDO, I mean its combat could literally be described as AoE centered. It lost my attention very fast.

     

    I think AoE should be something a few do well but not something that defines them. If my wizard can cast some AoE that takes everything down by 10% that’s fine with me as long as it got a cool down of 10 minutes or it uses so much mana it can’t be used again till you rest. Should be like an O-Sheet ability that you keep just for when things go bad.

     

    I really hope we can go back to fighting single mobs (with some CCed on the side) because that was always more fun to me.

     

    A big part of this really boils down to mob HP. If its high enough you will need higher single target abilities and that by nature reduces the value of AoE which generally do less damage but effect several things.

     

    I do remember some fun times in raids when we used AoE to clear trash mobs but that’s was a rare things, and even then it usually ended with a few rezzes.

    • 19 posts
    February 25, 2017 5:19 AM PST

    Not to sure how you can balance aoe taunts without a bigger cooldown but in terms of AOE spells in general, an AOE spell cast against a single target or 2 targets would be less effective than 2 single target spells. AOE spells should not do more damage than say 35% of a single target spell meaning you would need to hit 4+ mobs to make it cost effective. The trade of for this will also be increase spell casting cost, no CC and alot of work for the tanks holding agro etc...


    This post was edited by Solid at February 25, 2017 5:20 AM PST
    • 668 posts
    February 25, 2017 5:58 AM PST

    In looking at Pantheon, so far it seems like mobs are putting up a fair fight, not something you can burn through.  To be honest, I have seen very sloppy group tactics thus far, more times than not, where aggro has not been controlled, mezzes are constantly being broken, etc...   I am glad to see that a well-oiled group will probably do quite well in this game if everyone plays their role well.

    As far as AoE taunts go, maybe later in the game and have a longer cool down on it, only used for dire emergencies.  I think if it is created so it can't be abused, it will be a nice back up to have.  I really hope that fighting does not go down the road of being cookie cutter, doing the same thing each time.  I hope it is diverse enough to have to mix many things up due to the more complex NPC AI.


    This post was edited by Pyye at February 25, 2017 5:59 AM PST
    • 187 posts
    February 25, 2017 6:28 AM PST

    AoE should be dangerous, and at the same time, it should be used as a necessity in certain high end encounters. A boss should spawn a multitude of mini creatures, not all that high level, but if you haven't saved mana for them... BOOM, dead. You should have had to protect yourself and mind your aggro to that point, knowing that at some point, the boss is going to spawn this swarm, and if you're half dead and fire off your AoE... BOOM, dead.

    AoE should also be for limited soloing... an option to solo the lowest blue cons (bottom of your exp-gaining mobs)... and still very dangerous. So the exp result versus the risk still equals out, but some classes must use this dangerous method of solo versus other classes who cannot, but who can take on stronger mobs.

    AoE should never become the default grouping style. It just shouldn't, under any circumstances. And AoE should require the tank to build aggro across the board before it's safe to be fired off... It should be more like a "finishing move" than a default, in my personal opinion.

    If it's in the game at all, it's a good thing to use for strategic creation of bosses. For this reason, I advocate that it exist. However, if it is found to become the default, it should be nerfed and so should the boss encounters that use it, accordingly.

    Aggro should be high for anyone foolish enough to think they're super uber and can pop one off in a group before the tank has finished his or her job of nailing everything's hate list to himself. It ought to be a gamble--and a bad one of you don't time it with intelligence and skill.

    • 1618 posts
    February 25, 2017 7:34 AM PST

    AoE is an important skill to have and helps differe different classes from single target classes. 

    However, I believe the lowering effectiveness of crowd control abilities is what really leads to AoE over usage. 

    In the early days EQ2, enchanters and other CC classes were important in encounters. You had to keep certain mobs controlled to enable effective strategies. But, over time, they kept nerfing CC to the point that no one bothered with it. CC be are worthless and people just AOEd everything. 

    I think proper encounter builds is the key. Each group of mobs should be built so that you have to control certain types of mobs to allow you to defeat the others, such as interrupting or mezzing healers that actually concentrate on healing instead of DPS. Or wizards that root your tank and then the other mobs step back, out of melee range of the tank.

    • 1921 posts
    February 25, 2017 7:59 AM PST

    If they put AoE abilities (damage or otherwise) in the game, then Visionary Realms expects they will be used.  Don't be surprised, then, when they ARE used.  To great effect.

    If there is no situation they can be used in, or the mana costs are too high, or the cast times too long, then the spells are pointless.  If there are situations they can be used in, class envy will call for them to be nerfed.

    • 1618 posts
    February 25, 2017 8:11 AM PST

    vjek said:

    If they put AoE abilities (damage or otherwise) in the game, then Visionary Realms expects they will be used.  Don't be surprised, then, when they ARE used.  To great effect.

    If there is no situation they can be used in, or the mana costs are too high, or the cast times too long, then the spells are pointless.  If there are situations they can be used in, class envy will call for them to be nerfed.

    AoE abilities are useful and should be used. It's part of the whole strategy decision making. Sometimes it's better to CC encounters, other times AoE is the best. I am just hoping that they are balanced enough that one way does not become the only effective way.

    Not much point to CC if it's not effective. Not much point to AoE if its not effective.

    • 483 posts
    February 25, 2017 8:52 AM PST

    I think VR will balance AOE abilites well, they know the problems of having OP AOE abilities creates, so we just have to wait until alpha and beta to give feedback on what they decide to introduce.

    • 999 posts
    February 26, 2017 2:08 PM PST

    I hope if AoE spells are in game, and are powerful, that player characters (group members to avoid griefing) are able to be hit by the AoEs as well.  Make it so if they are used, some strategy has to be used and not just jumping around spamming them without repercussions.

    I'd take a similar stance on AoE taunting abilities - if warriors have abilities like AoE shouts, or dire lords AoE leeches, etc then I'd hope there'd be reprecussions for potentially using those as well, perhaps breaking CC etc..  Don't let taunting be "too easy." 

    • 1618 posts
    February 26, 2017 2:15 PM PST

    Raidan said:

    I hope if AoE spells are in game, and are powerful, that player characters (group members to avoid griefing) are able to be hit by the AoEs as well.  Make it so if they are used, some strategy has to be used and not just jumping around spamming them without repercussions.

    I'd take a similar stance on AoE taunting abilities - if warriors have abilities like AoE shouts, or dire lords AoE leeches, etc then I'd hope there'd be reprecussions for potentially using those as well, perhaps breaking CC etc..  Don't let taunting be "too easy." 

    From the FAQ:

    13.6 Will there be any friendly fire or negative friendly effects?

    There may be a few rare, extremely powerful AOE spells, that could affect others in your group. You’ll want to use them judicially and make very sure your group is positioned correctly. That being said, this would be the exception, not the rule.

    • 999 posts
    February 26, 2017 3:14 PM PST

    Appreciate the link Beefcake - keyword being "may."  I hope AoEs are implemented as advertised.

    • 66 posts
    February 26, 2017 4:38 PM PST

    I like AOE spells but they leave a bit of a sour taste in my mouth with the way they were balanced in vanguard. Think sorceror fire pummel at ant hill in kdq or even a monks dragon rakes its claws in shimmering shallows or sea of kojan. These spells were not balanced well at all and allowed these classes to rule over this content in a way that discouraged grouping.

    I have faith that the visionary team can prevent such an imbalance in the future with pantheon, but this can definately be used as a cautionary tale of what can go wrong when AOE spells become too powerful. One of the main lessons to learn from vanguard is to not allow AOE abilities to scale in such a way to allow that possibilty in the first place. While an ability may seem balanced with the current item set available if it has too much ability to scale then it just becomes overpowered very fast, this is exactly what happened with dragon rakes its claws

    I am a bit divided upon the topic of freindly fire aoe. I like the idea of it to a certain degree but I can imagine the amount of griefing that would also come with it. I like the coordination it demands but I feel with a heavier focus on CC, that ideal aoe situations should be on the rarer side of things. Too high of a frequency also leads to a disparity between aoe and non aoe dps classes. The upside of it is that I could imagine ways for the devs to make aoe'ing your teammates into a positive thing to do in some rare circumstances, perhaps fireball your cleric friends to unfreeze them from the dragons frost breath attack, or some other such environmental shenanigans. Using your abilties to interact with your fellow players in unconventional ways is something most players enjoy.