Bazgrim said:Here's an example: let's say I'm walking down the road and this huge mean-looking Rotweiler in the next yard over that is foaming at the mouth and barking aggressively and sprinting toward me. But I also notice that it's got a bulky metal chain attached to its collar and the chain is secured to a sturdy pole. I might panic for a brief moment and take a few steps back, but it'll run full speed into the end of its lead and yelp as it gets yanked back by its neck. I can just laugh at the dog all I want cause I know it can't touch me. This massive beast was made completely powerless just because I took a few steps back. That big bad dog all of a sudden looks pretty pathetic. I can walk that path every day without a worry as long as I just stay on the road. Easy. Now imagine the same exact scenario, except there's no chain. Now THAT'S exciting! That would be an unforgettable chase and you'd get quite the workout. I instantly have more fear and respect for the animal. If crybabies leave the game because of it, oh well. This was never intended to be a game for crybabies.
Preeeaaach brotha!
Kilaen said:Bazgrim said:Here's an example: let's say I'm walking down the road and this huge mean-looking Rotweiler in the next yard over that is foaming at the mouth and barking aggressively and sprinting toward me. But I also notice that it's got a bulky metal chain attached to its collar and the chain is secured to a sturdy pole. I might panic for a brief moment and take a few steps back, but it'll run full speed into the end of its lead and yelp as it gets yanked back by its neck. I can just laugh at the dog all I want cause I know it can't touch me. This massive beast was made completely powerless just because I took a few steps back. That big bad dog all of a sudden looks pretty pathetic. I can walk that path every day without a worry as long as I just stay on the road. Easy. Now imagine the same exact scenario, except there's no chain. Now THAT'S exciting! That would be an unforgettable chase and you'd get quite the workout. I instantly have more fear and respect for the animal. If crybabies leave the game because of it, oh well. This was never intended to be a game for crybabies.
Preeeaaach brotha!
The original EQ came before the pathetic PC world of today (now, there go my personal views getting out in the open :p). It was built to amaze, entrance, challenge and scare you. If you couldn't handle that, you didn't even really have a voice. You just had to accept it. Love and play, or hate and move on. Everyone can't have it their way.
In other news... did BK start a mass movement?
I hope mobs will actually be smarter than to follow someone to the end of the world in train formation.
One reason why everthing feels meh in these more recent games is poor mob AI/bland characters,but we've already seen promising streams from dispositions ,like the alarmist,in Pantheon.
An ambusher disposition could add greater risk to attempted training.If it is going to be legal,at least let some skill be involved in order to pull it off.
And sometimes player that wish other players ill would have to learn that harm watch sometimes means harm catch
A tactician disposition might oversee the positions all the mobs in a camp and could be programmed to not allow their camp to go undefended if valuable treasures are present at that camp.
So training can't be used to distract ,while another member has free access to all the loot.
Thinking about training ,what they have said in the tenet section also comes to mind " engage the world"
So maybe the group can work together to push a boulder from the hill ,hoping for a strike (all the mobs and the trainer included)
I can see why the ability to be a villain would be desired.I just hope they'll make it happen with the right features
Not sure if training is the greatest option to make it happen,as poor mob AI was part of the reason why mobs would mindlessly jump that follow train
Aside from training being a consequence of poor mob AI,a satisfying villain role requires and deserves more than that imo
Poor AI in recent games? Was AI ever good in MMOs?
EQ to this day has the most exploitable NPCs in any game I've ever played.
Dispositions are cool and will help, but it's still just a script at the end of the day.
No ,AI has never been that great in MMOs :D (also training is something people have gotten used to because all these games have the poor AI to allow it )
At least with dispositions I believe we'll see a refreshing improvement there. With this improvement it would also mean mobs might act differently on the battlefield. I hope they'll provide greater challenge in combat for a change. What worked for games with poor AI,might not be the best option for a game like this with more potential I think
Roenick said:Recently, an online friend and I were discussing how much we miss the fact that we could be trained or griefed in game. We came to the conclusion that part of why MMO's now are so sterile is because they actually don't allow anyone to become a villain anymore.
IMO, what made the early games so great was the competion and the greifers. It formed alliances, and also rivalaries. All of which helped build the community. Most of today's MMOs want to treat players like suburban parents often treat their children —"everyones a winner."
I would venture to guess, that when you reflect on those old MMO experiences, the pain of getting loot stolen, or blocked on a mob, or constantly trained at the zone entrance has been replaced by not only nostalgia, but also a loss of part what made communities great back then–rallying against some Dbag.
So to all the Boofs, Reznors and TreyHarrys of the world, I salute you.
I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean by this. If you mean that you wish to keep EQ standards like they were and not change anything I.e. Training and camp stealing are possibilities than fine, you guys are keeping it old school and that's what many of us are here for in the first place.
Here are some things I would consider...Times have changed. Over the years people have figured out what internet anonymity means and now we have whole guilds packed with people who just don't care about what people think anymore. Having such a positive attitude about why letting bad things happen is good for a community is somewhat worrying because it sounds like you are saying that a place like Lord of the Flies is ideal in gaming. I don't nessacarilly disagree that a certain amount of chaos is bad but it's the rose colored glasses that worry me.
I would like a better explaination of your statement does this mean that you guys will encourage both good and bad behavior? Does this mean you think less policing is where you guys are going? Can you be a little more clear?
Fluffy said:I hope mobs will actually be smarter than to follow someone to the end of the world in train formation.
Brad has said since the very early days that how far mobs will choose to chase you will depend greatly upon the NPC. 'Mindless' NPCs like skeletons, zombies, etc will chase you till you hit a zone line. That fits with their nature. NPCs with animal level intelligence could chase you until you leave their area or get far enough away. Some may chase you a long way while others only a short distance. Again, it will depend upon the NPC. Lasty, societal and very intelligent NPC will have very different reactions. Why should a guard outside a fortress chase you to a zoneline? That's not what guards should do so I'll bet we won't see that.
We will have to learn the reactions as we play and that is a very good thing for the game.
that it would be a learning process would be great Vandraad,that would make the mobs intruiging,while adding variety and tactics into dealing with mob aggro.
Gamerchick has a great point.Times have changed indeed.The way people interact with each other
But also the material they are able to work with now;the NPC dispositions to improve AI
It is important to realize that now you have the capability for a better aggro system with tactical depth.
Just like how the better graphics available today are used.
I believe training is one thing to hold in your memories,because it would hold back the potential of the game ,looking at what you are able to do for AI today.So go for excellence instead <3
No doubt Pantheon will recreate many fond memories,but some of those fond memories are best kept with us ; they can't be recreated because times have changed,people have changed.
Not long ago I saw someone mention "games have to evolve."
In some areas they do.And this is one of them imo.
Now I'm all for rivalries ,sure this environment that is not 'sanitized' can be created by other means?
Maybe you can gain faction with a specific category of mobs,make life miserable in the starting area as an overlord snake-tamer
Sending booby-trapped gifts to that special someone that will turn their head into a potato for half an hour.
Cheering for the champion boss someone has been solo fighting for the last half hour.
Something to think about;what would you like to be able to do to/with your rivals
Gamerchick said:Roenick said:Recently, an online friend and I were discussing how much we miss the fact that we could be trained or griefed in game. We came to the conclusion that part of why MMO's now are so sterile is because they actually don't allow anyone to become a villain anymore.
IMO, what made the early games so great was the competion and the greifers. It formed alliances, and also rivalaries. All of which helped build the community. Most of today's MMOs want to treat players like suburban parents often treat their children —"everyones a winner."
I would venture to guess, that when you reflect on those old MMO experiences, the pain of getting loot stolen, or blocked on a mob, or constantly trained at the zone entrance has been replaced by not only nostalgia, but also a loss of part what made communities great back then–rallying against some Dbag.
So to all the Boofs, Reznors and TreyHarrys of the world, I salute you.
I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean by this. If you mean that you wish to keep EQ standards like they were and not change anything I.e. Training and camp stealing are possibilities than fine, you guys are keeping it old school and that's what many of us are here for in the first place.
Here are some things I would consider...Times have changed. Over the years people have figured out what internet anonymity means and now we have whole guilds packed with people who just don't care about what people think anymore. Having such a positive attitude about why letting bad things happen is good for a community is somewhat worrying because it sounds like you are saying that a place like Lord of the Flies is ideal in gaming. I don't nessacarilly disagree that a certain amount of chaos is bad but it's the rose colored glasses that worry me.
I would like a better explaination of your statement does this mean that you guys will encourage both good and bad behavior? Does this mean you think less policing is where you guys are going? Can you be a little more clear?
Please keep in mind this was posted by Roenick in April last year before he joined the Visionary Realms team, back when he was a community member posting his thoughts as one of you folks, this is not an official Visionary Realms team view point. ;)
Thanks to inform us Kilsin, was sharing the worries with Gamerchick there
The more I started thinking about training",the less I liked it;Assuming you could gather that army of mobs while having a nice,safe long walk in the park . Totally neglects an important tenet- respect your surrounding;it leaves environment out of the picture as a danger that the players need to be heedful about while on the move.
Pits and traps to fall in,quicksands,poisonous or flesh-eating plants that would swallow you whole etc
Training might not be the type of "embrace" community needs either :D Some lighthearted rivalry might be nice,messing around a bit.The competitive nature would more often than not be pvp?
Gamerchick said:Roenick said:Recently, an online friend and I were discussing how much we miss the fact that we could be trained or griefed in game. We came to the conclusion that part of why MMO's now are so sterile is because they actually don't allow anyone to become a villain anymore.
IMO, what made the early games so great was the competion and the greifers. It formed alliances, and also rivalaries. All of which helped build the community. Most of today's MMOs want to treat players like suburban parents often treat their children —"everyones a winner."
I would venture to guess, that when you reflect on those old MMO experiences, the pain of getting loot stolen, or blocked on a mob, or constantly trained at the zone entrance has been replaced by not only nostalgia, but also a loss of part what made communities great back then–rallying against some Dbag.
So to all the Boofs, Reznors and TreyHarrys of the world, I salute you.
I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean by this. If you mean that you wish to keep EQ standards like they were and not change anything I.e. Training and camp stealing are possibilities than fine, you guys are keeping it old school and that's what many of us are here for in the first place.
Here are some things I would consider...Times have changed. Over the years people have figured out what internet anonymity means and now we have whole guilds packed with people who just don't care about what people think anymore. Having such a positive attitude about why letting bad things happen is good for a community is somewhat worrying because it sounds like you are saying that a place like Lord of the Flies is ideal in gaming. I don't nessacarilly disagree that a certain amount of chaos is bad but it's the rose colored glasses that worry me.
I would like a better explaination of your statement does this mean that you guys will encourage both good and bad behavior? Does this mean you think less policing is where you guys are going? Can you be a little more clear?
There's a sentiment that you seem to be missing, which is the whole point here.
Sentiment is kind of the point. I don't think it's exactly healthy to have an expectation that every EQ mechanic is going to show its face in Pantheon. Not only have the devs expressly said that the game isn't an EQ clone, but "because EQ" is completely devoid of a rational argument.
I'm as emotional about early EQ as anyone else here, but I'm not going to lie to myself and say that it's possible to experience that again. Not only that, but I don't want to experience that again. I want something new, in the same vague image, but not necessarily reproduced with shiny new graphics.
I played in the Skyfire zone a lot, they had mobs that summoned and so on..plus a big ol Dragon that you didn't want to notice you. People had a bad habit of not killing everything they pulled, those unnoticed agroed mobs would wander off to find their friends.
I tried to warn people a few times to kill what you pulled, but in some cases that warning went in one ear and out the other. I could see what was coming and would run up the side of the zone wall, out of reach of agro. And just watch karma happen to the careless and unwary. :) I think this type of learning curve SHOULD be in Pantheon. That you should be aware that if you allow agroed mobs to wander away...that's your own self made karmic train coming back to haunt you. And you'll HOPEFULLY learn how that works. :) All hail Train to Zone..looking forward to it. Sissies need not apply :)
Cana
I personally think training is a terrible mechanism to use in a game. It allows players on a pve server to deliberately use the environment to kill other characters. If I want other players to kill my characters I will play on a pvp server. This has nothing to do with whether I am a wuss and want an easy environment and a lot of handholding. It has to do with my view of what players should be able to each other and my strong opposition to intentional griefing as a legitimate way of playing. For the record, I am not a wuss. I am a carebear. There is a difference.
Mod Edit: Removed portion that applied to the removed content. :)
CanadinaXegony said:
People had a bad habit of not killing everything they pulled, those unnoticed agroed mobs would wander off to find their friends.
I wonder if some of the introduced dispositions,like alarmist,stem from these experiences.
In which case I think the lesson is well learned,and applied.
Rather than trying to get rid of those frustrating experiences,"eliminating" them from the game
It is better to transform them and turn it into something beautiful
As a player ,trying to distance yourself from the anger and frustration is best
People are tired ,on the edge.Like a fuse waiting to be lit.
They have rushed so much and striven so hard ,often powerless and unable to *fix* what is wrong in their life;that causes frustration
As I see it,things that frustrate players are working points and should be looked at by devs to see what it there to learn from it and adapt/transform
Because the prime purpose for games is having fun.Putting your mind on different things than the daily struggles of life.
CanadinaXegony said:
And just watch karma happen to the careless and unwary
I think this type of learning curve SHOULD be in Pantheon.That you should be aware that if you allow agroed mobs to wander away...that's your own self made karmic train coming back to haunt you.
The environment that held no danger allowed the careless rushing too
No doubt for all these interesting NPC dispositions there will be a learning curve for how to deal with them;escaping mobs might become an art of its own.
In a good game,players with careless behavior get what they deserve indeed.
In Buddha's teachings you also have a few types of persons,depending on their karmic afflictions of anger and frustration,looking at what manofyesterday said.
For some ,the level of frustration is particularly high,making life miserable for themselves and others
Another type are the persons that hold few grudges and do not look to settle accounts.Their anger and frustration are dissipated as rapidly as the river that flows under a bridge.
If everyone could let their anger and frustrations flow like that,the world would be a happier place.
What player vs enviroment entails should not be forgotten either ,as Dorotea mentions.
There is also an interesting bit in the game features section
"Watch the population evolve around you as different NPCs and beasts may change depending on your past actions."
Could this mean a player can have a standing with a certain mob type? If a player keeps bothering or killing their comrades,they'd eventually start to actively scout and hunt down those players.
Roenick said:Recently, an online friend and I were discussing how much we miss the fact that we could be trained or griefed in game. We came to the conclusion that part of why MMO's now are so sterile is because they actually don't allow anyone to become a villain anymore.
IMO, what made the early games so great was the competion and the greifers. It formed alliances, and also rivalaries. All of which helped build the community. Most of today's MMOs want to treat players like suburban parents often treat their children —"everyones a winner."
I would venture to guess, that when you reflect on those old MMO experiences, the pain of getting loot stolen, or blocked on a mob, or constantly trained at the zone entrance has been replaced by not only nostalgia, but also a loss of part what made communities great back then–rallying against some Dbag.
So to all the Boofs, Reznors and TreyHarrys of the world, I salute you.
Well, since my other posts were deleted, I'll simply say that I agree with this post.
While none of us like being trained, KSed, and the like. It does add some bit of drama and excitement to the game.
In reality, most of these events were rarities, so they were hardly ever an on-going problem, and even in the case of many of these negative aspects, they were unintentional by the perpetrators.
I made many new friends through such events when someone trained the zone trying to save their own skin, only to find an unsuspecting player at the zone. Often they would rezone in, and help the victim however they can, or you both zoned out and laughed together, then joined forces and went back in.
If everything is good all the time, then is it really "good". With no comparison to "bad", "good" is just a word with no meaning.
I dont think there is any excuse for intentionally setting out to ruin game play for people. I would argue that this kind of behaviour is more in line with PVP based gameplay that should not part of a PVE environment.
I have had fun being on the receiving end of trains, but those are unintentional. I have also had to run for my life at the head of such a line of mobs, but I always did a shout to let people know what was headed towards them. To set out to disrupt someone's fun because you want them out of the way is not something that I remember with any fondness what so ever. I have never thought that those types of attitudes should be part of the game.
Seriously? Giving a shout out to people who ruin other people's enjoyment of the game (who are playing the game in the way it was meant to be played) is a bit short sighted to say the least. Trains, disagreements, small upsets, fine! Setting out to intentionally grief people? I'm actually a bit offended that you would promote this kind of person!
Fluffy said:I hope mobs will actually be smarter than to follow someone to the end of the world in train formation.
One reason why everthing feels meh in these more recent games is poor mob AI/bland characters,but we've already seen promising streams from dispositions ,like the alarmist,in Pantheon.
An ambusher disposition could add greater risk to attempted training.If it is going to be legal,at least let some skill be involved in order to pull it off.
And sometimes player that wish other players ill would have to learn that harm watch sometimes means harm catchA tactician disposition might oversee the positions all the mobs in a camp and could be programmed to not allow their camp to go undefended if valuable treasures are present at that camp.
So training can't be used to distract ,while another member has free access to all the loot.Thinking about training ,what they have said in the tenet section also comes to mind " engage the world"
So maybe the group can work together to push a boulder from the hill ,hoping for a strike (all the mobs and the trainer included)
I can see why the ability to be a villain would be desired.I just hope they'll make it happen with the right features
Not sure if training is the greatest option to make it happen,as poor mob AI was part of the reason why mobs would mindlessly jump that follow train
Aside from training being a consequence of poor mob AI,a satisfying villain role requires and deserves more than that imo
While I agree that all mobs in all zones shouldn't chase to the ends of the world (zone), I think that in many (maybe most) of the places people find themselves leveling they should and will. Any mobs in dungeon zones, undead areas, predatory beasts, and things of that nature.
Things like humanoids in forts/keeps within a larger open zone shouldn't stray too far though.
I spend a lot of time thinking about when this game goes live. I get all excited.
And then threads like this happen.
Inadvertant trains, sure.
Encouraging people to be "villains" and grief people? Bah. Quickest way to make me lose interest.
There is a certain element of gamers that absolutely love, more than anything else, to ruin other people's game. Let them go elsewhere.
Sure, "self policing" might have worked back in EQ1 days (I wasn't there, but I'm guessing most of you are looking at it with rose-colored glasses). But games, and gamers, have changed. What might have been a small, manageable chunk of people griefing has become an entire big segment of gamers. I don't expect "self policing" to work, basiacally at all.
Make griefing and generally being an ****** have no, or little, consequences? I doubt I make it more than a month in before I give up on the game.
--Gray
It is sad that the basic concepts of "With freedom comes responsibility" and "rules and laws that restrain, restrain everyone" and "Only the good guys follow the rules" are so missed on people today.
We've done the experiment of using code to prevent all the bad things that can happen to you in games. The result has been a long series of on-line single player games that may or may not have any value based on story, etc., but are sterile and disconnected as social games. If you want to play those kinds of games, they already exist. I am looking forward to a game that will not likely have many griefers because we can kick their asses ourselves if we have to.
DragonFist said:It is sad that the basic concepts of "With freedom comes responsibility" and "rules and laws that restrain, restrain everyone" and "Only the good guys follow the rules" are so missed on people today.
We've done the experiment of using code to prevent all the bad things that can happen to you in games. The result has been a long series of on-line single player games that may or may not have any value based on story, etc., but are sterile and disconnected as social games. If you want to play those kinds of games, they already exist. I am looking forward to a game that will not likely have many griefers because we can kick their asses ourselves if we have to.
It's not code based solutions, it's intervention based solutions from VR staff.
I've seen the repercussions of lawless games. You are underestimating how awful a game can be when there are no repercussions for these actions. There is no reasonable amount of power you can put in the hands of players to prevent it.
The reason for that is because it stalls your progress at best. One Monk in EQ could simultaneously shut down three entire zones across the entire game world with ease if they had a dedicated Wizard/Druid to transport them. There isn't really any recourse for it from a mechanics perspective. You can leave the zone or hide in a weird corner somewhere, but the objective is already achieved - you can't actually do anything without getting trained.