Anistosoles said:Yeah, sure, allow me to ruin your gaming night. That's EXACTLY what we need to keep from the "goodole days." /rolls eyes
And, no, not outrageous or infuriating...just not needed in oirder to make PROTF a great game for those of us who want the challenge without all the BS.
Mod Edit: Merged double post into first post. please edit your post instead of posting right after your first one as it is considered double posting and against forum guidelines :)
It can be very annoying when a person trains you but it is a side effect of a more immersive world. I dont like being trained any more than the next person, but I hate seeing a pack of bloodthirsty bandits chase 1 person trying to rob them only to run past others on their way back and ignore them. Just destroys immersion for me.
I think a lot of it boils down to immersion and bringing on that sense of danger again while fighting in a dungeon or any zone in particular. I 100% agree with the ability to train a zone. However i do not condone doing it on purpose just to be an ass.
Training provides a sense of danger especially in tight dungeon areas that you dont get otherwise(stacked on top of a hard death penalty, even more danger). Knowing a train could be barreling towards you and your group adds another dynamic to the whole immersion and social aspect to the game. Most times a train happens in a tight zone people call it out; ive wiped groups with my trains before and felt compelled to apologize because i knew theyd just lost XP and now had a corpse run, but thats just. Point being, that it almost forces you to be social because there is a moral sense behind the villainy and things like training or ninja looting that i think all helps build a strong social experience which all ties into immersion.
I think a big thing that is missing from MMOs is the social aspect and that it is essential for players to be communicating to build an immersive multiplayer experience to help bring a virtual world to life.
First post ever, so here's a Hi to all you folks.
So I think there's an interesting take on this discussion that I haven't seen talked about and that is how this issue looks through the eyes of a griefer.
When I was 13 I had two friends who introduced me to EQ and told me it was a great game that I had to try. . I quickly made friends in game and braved the dangerous world, got wrecked by trains, and eventually made my way through. To my surprise, my two friends spent hours upon hours in the starter zones training level 1 players. What I would like to explore (and would love input on) is what motivated them to do that and how to make a virtual world that accomodates a griefer in the best possible way.
Griefers will seek out ways grief:
My two friends were given access to the same world that I was and chose to inhabit it in such a stunningly different way. They got bullied (trained) and spun around to be the bully themselves because they could be. I'll be honest, they were not smart people, but I don't think they were particularly mean spirited at heart, they just found a way to lash out at the world. When they got bored with training they moved onto a PvP server to harass level 1 halflings or whatever easy targets they could find until they eventually quit. These people exist and they will take part in Pantheon and while you could say remove training from the game and I'll be happier, I personally believe that is the wrong response.
How many games dealt with this:
Let's put on those kid gloves and streamline the experience! We can take mechanics for training and remove/alter them. All other mechanics for harassing (except for verbal) your fellow players get taken out too! All mechanics that may result in interpersonal conflict get removed. These games do a great job in allowing for Bobby and Jimmy to have a nice and safe experience, but this goes counter to what Pantheon has stated that it wants to provide.
But here's the real point... What happens to the griefers who come across games like this? They have no way to lash out! They are forced into the same streamlined experience as the rest of us and proceed through the game hidden amongst the crowd. Bobby and Jimmy are now playing with the bullies Fred and Steve. In many of the games that I've played, this results in having a community plagued by toxic players that have no outlet for their griefing. They join your groups through ingame finders and play with you, only to turn around and get upset because X, Y, Z, and then try to grief from within. In video games and in many parts of life anger and frustration begets more anger and frustration, so forcing the toxicity into the community is not the right approach.
A possible approach to future game design:
Perhaps the best solution to the issue of griefing is to leave alone the in game mechanics for open and visible interpersonal conflict. Those being griefed want some protections and they should have those for extreme forms of griefing that halt a player's progress outright. Light forms of griefing should be left as an outlet for those silly angry players that exist all around us.
Griefing is not a rational choice, so we don't need to be terribly clever here. I would implore the developers to offer players some visible choices for "light" griefing. I truly believe that if players are provided with the opportunity to train (or something similar), then they will either by identified as bad apples with clear and irrefutable evidence OR they will have an outlet for their frustrations and hopefully be able to move on with the cooperative parts of the game after they've had their fix. Only the truly angry will seek out extreme forms of harassment, and player reports are probably the best way to deal with those folks.
TL;DR
Griefing is bullying and removing all mechanics that can lead to griefing forces bullies into the mainstream.
Allow "light" and visible griefing to allow for bad apples to be identified and allow the playerbase to sort it out.
Extreme griefing (that halts play) is still bad.
Train to zone!! Some of my fondest memories involve dropping everything, turning tail and running my ogre behind off towards the closest zone line. Sure, I've been the victim of uncouth players training mobs onto our group to get our camp spot, and you know what? Sometimes we won.
Those experiences can't be duplicated in a sanitized environment, you never know what you can overcome until you do it. I will also freely admit that sometimes turnabout is fair play and those trainers became the trainees and revenge was exacted in spades (like writing their names and guild down and mericlleslly obliterating anyone with the tag - after the GM was contacted and he told us to go pound sand)
As others have said here, when bullies can come and go annonymously and use a premade group finder to continue their reign unabated, the community as a whole suffers. When we, as a group, can fight back against them, we can effect real change. Like many of us have experienced in real life, when you stand up to a bully you often times can get to the heart of their problem which results in making a friend for life, and that is how our little gaming family can change the world.
A thread regarding the ills of training, in Everquest TLP, as of Dec 6, 2016:
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/intentional-training-is-permitted.236980/
Training should not be in Pantheon, at least not the "infinite leash length" version that has been shown so far in the public videos.
vjek said:A thread regarding the ills of training, in Everquest TLP, as of Dec 6, 2016:
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/intentional-training-is-permitted.236980/
Training should not be in Pantheon, at least not the "infinite leash length" version that has been shown so far in the public videos.
I agree. The train that happened in the very first stream where the mobs followed the group all the way back to town after they died is definitely too extreme. But of course this will change because I'm sure the devs will not allow mobs to stay leashed after a player dies and I'm pretty sure everybody died in that first video. If this wasn't what happened and the mobs followed a living player back to the town then the question becomes how far do we allow mobs to follow before they leash.
Anyone remember the auto-pulls that would happen? You'd be in a large outdoor zone and run by a mob, and eventually outrun it so it'd give up. But since you never zoned you never left its agro list. As it roamed around and passed other mobs, they would add you to their agro list, and eventually every few minutes you'd have a random mob seamingly charging you out of nowhere. Basically as soon as one of those mobs that you got added to got close enough, it would decide to kill you.
I've had this turn into a bad situation more than once in Frontier Mountains, while in a group killing stuff and random mobs just charge in while you're already fighting.
I disagree with the premise that allowing people to grief others is actually good for the game, but that's just me. I can live with it either way because I put on my big boy pants this morning and mommy told me I was special. But if toxic behavior is to be allowed, there should at least consequences for doing said behavior. What those consequences should be I have no idea, but it seems inherently wrong that in cases of griefing that the victim is the one who assumes any risk. I think at the very least it should be possible to name and shame them publicly, but I'm almost certain that is not allowed on these forums.
vjek said:A thread regarding the ills of training, in Everquest TLP, as of Dec 6, 2016:
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/intentional-training-is-permitted.236980/
Training should not be in Pantheon, at least not the "infinite leash length" version that has been shown so far in the public videos.
I'm sorry if your opinions are genuine, but I can't tell if you always completely contradict how the vast majority feels just for the sake of being a rebel. If you are genuine, I predict Pantheon will be very disappointing for you. But we will see.
Anyway, trains are one of the best aspects of EQ and are a lost art in pretty much every game now. Almost everyone's most vivid memories involve some sort of train. Whether the train is directed toward you, or if someone just had a bad pull, seeing a train immediately incites a feeling of wonder and fear at the same exact time. That is something that is desperately needed in MMO's. It takes you by surprise and makes you think on your feet. Some of the best stories start from bad pulls. No one likes to wipe from a train, regardless of why it was started. But you know what, life isn't fair. And it never will be. Rather than covering Terminus with soft padded pillows and safety nets and making it unrealistic for the sake of ensuring players always feel good about themselves, leave it to the players to have to problem-solve.
Rather than simply eliminating trains, instead change the mechanics of Feign Death in order to discourage people from intentionally training other groups.
FD should not be a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. I have mentioned this in another thread, but I'll summarize here because I think it's applicable and important. Let's say a huge group of mobs is trailing a few dozen feet behind a Monk and suddenly the Monk just suddenly falls to the ground and "dies." What the heck do those mobs think happened? He conveniently had a heart attack at that exact moment and instantly died? Only the stupidest mobs (undead for example) would even have a chance at believing this. The vast majority of creatures will take a bit more convincing.
Therefore, FD should only be activateable if you have recently taken damage. It'd be a lot more believeable if you collapse right after taking a hit to the head, for example. Even if you don't ACTUALLY die, it's a lot easier to pretend that you did. The window of time and/or amount of damage (% of your max HP) required would be determined by your skill level in FD. But even at high skill, you might have to be willing to play a little chicken with your health bar in order to fool most mobs. This requires the player to have better timing to be effective (hooray skill ceilings!).
So if you're gonna be a troll and train another group, you're gonna hafta be a talented troll lol. And if you're not talented, you'll at least probably end up sacrificing yourself in the process. I think these malicious trains are the types of trains that frustrate people the most. If another group just has a bad pull and you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, well too bad so sad. There will always be times when other people screw you over, intentionally or not. If you really cannot handle that, I would recommend playing Skyrim. Otherwise, suck it up, learn what you can, and move on as a better player than you were before.
Bazgrim said:I'm sorry if your opinions are genuine, but I can't tell if you always completely contradict how the vast majority feels just for the sake of being a rebel. If you are genuine, I predict Pantheon will be very disappointing for you. But we will see.
if years of hanging around MMO forums has taught me anything, it's that those posting on forums do not, by a significant margin, represent how the majority feels. Most people are indifferent at best.
itvar said:Bazgrim said:I'm sorry if your opinions are genuine, but I can't tell if you always completely contradict how the vast majority feels just for the sake of being a rebel. If you are genuine, I predict Pantheon will be very disappointing for you. But we will see.
if years of hanging around MMO forums has taught me anything, it's that those posting on forums do not, by a significant margin, represent how the majority feels. Most people are indifferent at best.
Very true.
Having played on Phinigel for about a year now, I can safely say training adds absolutely nothing of substance to the game. There is no use for the mechanic that isn't inherently malicious.
Experienced players will play around trains. Inexperienced players will rage post on the forums 24/7, call for entire guilds to get banned, and ultimately potentially stop playing the game before they figure out how to play around it.
Training is essentially PvP, and it's become pretty obvious that a lot of people here couldn't care less about having a PvP aspect to Pantheon. Abusing mechanic to impact other players is somehow not considered an even worse form of PvP than simply straight up attacking other people. A strange phenomenon.
Liav said:Having played on Phinigel for about a year now, I can safely say training adds absolutely nothing of substance to the game. There is no use for the mechanic that isn't inherently malicious.
Experienced players will play around trains. Inexperienced players will rage post on the forums 24/7, call for entire guilds to get banned, and ultimately potentially stop playing the game before they figure out how to play around it.
Training is essentially PvP, and it's become pretty obvious that a lot of people here couldn't care less about having a PvP aspect to Pantheon. Abusing mechanic to impact other players is somehow not considered an even worse form of PvP than simply straight up attacking other people. A strange phenomenon.
I feel like this entire thread is having two very different conversations at the same time: accidental trains and intentional trains.
But the way I look at it, you kind of contradicted yourself - the fact that you have to have experience to learn how to play around trains is exactly the substance that it adds to the game. This goes for both "types" of trains. That's just part of the challenge and challenge is good. If mobs have leashes, I'm not going to feel NEARLY as much of a sense of danger going through the world because I know if I just run far enough, I'll automatically be safe. That's incredibly lame.
Here's an example: let's say I'm walking down the road and this huge mean-looking Rotweiler in the next yard over that is foaming at the mouth and barking aggressively and sprinting toward me. But I also notice that it's got a bulky metal chain attached to its collar and the chain is secured to a sturdy pole. I might panic for a brief moment and take a few steps back, but it'll run full speed into the end of its lead and yelp as it gets yanked back by its neck. I can just laugh at the dog all I want cause I know it can't touch me. This massive beast was made completely powerless just because I took a few steps back. That big bad dog all of a sudden looks pretty pathetic. I can walk that path every day without a worry as long as I just stay on the road. Easy. Now imagine the same exact scenario, except there's no chain. Now THAT'S exciting! That would be an unforgettable chase and you'd get quite the workout. I instantly have more fear and respect for the animal. If crybabies leave the game because of it, oh well. This was never intended to be a game for crybabies.
Or imagine a low level guy that got in way over his head and is running for his life and there happens to be a max level wiz nearby that nukes the train and saves his life. Friendships are started that way and it makes for a good story. If you really think about it, trains can actually be pretty condusive to the experience and playstyle that VR is going for.
However, I'm talking mostly in terms of accidental trains. I definitely do agree about the "PvP" aspect. Brad has already confirmed that there will be trains in the game. So we might as well just focus on coming up with ideas to make it not so easy to troll people. Because that can obviously really kill the mood. See my above post in regards to making FD much less of a "Get Out of Jail Free" card so that it is very difficult to maliciously train someone. That way the vast majority of trains we see are the ones that are screenshot-worthy and just shake things up a little bit, which I think is an important part of the game.
Allowing trains and making it "not so easy to troll people" are mutually exclusive concepts. You also don't need FD to train people, and never did.
Pulling too many mobs and overwhelming yourself isn't "training". That's called "overpulling".
Of all the ways to add challenge to Pantheon, why pick the mechanic that has one of the highest abuse potentials of any mechanic in any MMO ever?
Liav said:Pulling too many mobs and overwhelming yourself isn't "training". That's called "overpulling".
Not when you realize that your only hope to survive is to make a bee line for the zone wall. All the mobs follow you and you potentially put all the innocent bystanders in between you and the zone in harm's way. That's called a train. Why else would people shout "TRAIN TO ZONE"? Maybe there was someone peacefully medding at the zone-in and even if you're lucky enough to safely make it all the way back, as soon as you zone out, all those mobs that were following you are probably going to aggro onto that innocent bystander. Sucks to be that guy. But that person that pulled that train there didn't do it to be a troll. They just made a mistake. See the difference?
Trains are fundamental to having pseudo-intelligent mobs. It's natural behavior. If mobs behave more stupidly than we expect, we won't respect them and therefore won't feel danger and therefore immersion will be broken. However, as usual, the best answer is somewhere between the two extremes (no trains or always trains). Therefore, I'd still like to see some exceptions to trains, where applicable. From shortest leashes to longest:
1. Mobs that lack endurance. These would probably be creatures that are obviously young or sickly. They may chase you a short distance until they get tired, at which point they realize they will never catch up to you so they pretty much just give up and turn around and walk back.
2. Mobs that are territorial. That is, they are more concerned about protecting a particular area than actually killing you. (Maybe Black Dagger Keep guards?) If you get too close, they'll attack. If you run, they'll chase you only as far as they need to in order to get you away from whatever it is they're protecting. But at some point it's more important to them that they turn around and return to protecting their area than actually doing whatever it takes to kill you.
3. Mobs that fear certain parts of their own environment. For example, let's say you're fighting a camp of orcs in a hilly zone. You get outnumbered and need to run for your life. Orcs are pretty savage creatures as well as good runners so they're gonna chase you in hopes of killing you. But you happen to know that there is a particular dark forest not far to the east that the orcs never dare enter because it is shrouded in mystery. Legends have been passed down through generations of orcs about how dangerous that forest is. So they'll chase you right up the edge of that forest, but at that point, they might as well just assume that you're gonna die in the forest anyway so it's not worth risking their own lives to see it through themselves. Mind you, the forest isn't even its own separate zone line. It may just be a small portion of a larger zone. Therefore, you don't need to run all the way to the zone wall. You just need to know what parts of the zone certain mobs aren't willing to go.
But there should always be some relentless, bloodthirsty mobs who have tunnel vision and will stop at nothing to see you dead.
Like I said, we already know there will be trains in the game. So it's not even worth arguing YES or NO. I'm just trying to come up with innovative compromises. :)
Liav said:Allowing trains and making it "not so easy to troll people" are mutually exclusive concepts. You also don't need FD to train people, and never did.
Pulling too many mobs and overwhelming yourself isn't "training". That's called "overpulling".
Of all the ways to add challenge to Pantheon, why pick the mechanic that has one of the highest abuse potentials of any mechanic in any MMO ever?
It's all about numbers. Financially, adding this mechanic increases the risk of the overall project and reduces the target demographic. Potentially, significantly.
Evidently, Brad & Visionary Realms feels that their target demographic numbers are high enough to include, as you say, " the mechanic that has one of the highest abuse potentials of any mechanic in any MMO ever? ".
Time will tell if their wild bet is going to be a winner. Personally, I think it's a mistake that is going to turn away a lot of potential customers, and again, that's a real shame and lost potential.
It's not like there aren't solutions. Make it so every mob on the hate list of an FD'er hits them once (to make sure they're dead), and when FD they have all defensive abilities at zero, including level. Make it so leash length is variable by zone, or a whole bunch of other innovative options. What's been demonstrated so far is a CS nightmare re-incarnated, just like EQ1.
X
No one ever enjoys being griefed in any way. Whether that is being trained or even simply just people encroaching on your camp and stealing mobs. But with that being said, it is a large part of what made the community what it was. The people who chose to continuously do those things made a name for themselves quickly. Soon enough the entire server knew who you were. You were shunned from guilds and groups and it made it very hard for you to progress. Hell entire guilds were alieniated. We had 1 guild on our server that was constantly blocked by nearly all others because of the way they chose to do things.
Now I don't advocate for being able to grief people, for any reason. But putting restrictions on things begins to limit the community as a whole. There needs to be some restrictions but the limit on them needs to be in place. For instance, in the case of trains it's an easy fix, make trains wipe threat when all engaged targets are dead/lose agro until they return to their original spawn points. This would essentially eliminate people griefing other groups via training unless that group was using aoe abilities or simply hit the mob that was trained in. Still makes it possible to train a group if they aren't paying attention but it won't be near as easy.
In terms of group finder, absolutely not. Do not automate any process. I for one simply want what is in eq currently. Let me type /lfg and pop up a window with everyone that has a lfg tag in a level range. From there I have to talk to them. And before people grab pitchforks over this, it's really no different than joining a world wide channel to post "LF DPS 44-47". It simply eliminates the need for me sitting in a spam fest channel.
Keeping some of the new and reverting back to some of the old imo is what will make this game far and away better than anything currently on the market. Give us the old school feeling with some new school advancements.
MedawkyVR said:Train to zone!! Some of my fondest memories involve dropping everything, turning tail and running my ogre behind off towards the closest zone line. Sure, I've been the victim of uncouth players training mobs onto our group to get our camp spot, and you know what? Sometimes we won.
Those experiences can't be duplicated in a sanitized environment, you never know what you can overcome until you do it. I will also freely admit that sometimes turnabout is fair play and those trainers became the trainees and revenge was exacted in spades (like writing their names and guild down and mericlleslly obliterating anyone with the tag - after the GM was contacted and he told us to go pound sand)
As others have said here, when bullies can come and go annonymously and use a premade group finder to continue their reign unabated, the community as a whole suffers. When we, as a group, can fight back against them, we can effect real change. Like many of us have experienced in real life, when you stand up to a bully you often times can get to the heart of their problem which results in making a friend for life, and that is how our little gaming family can change the world.
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!! This this this thisity this-this-this!!!!!!!!!!!
Bazgrim said:Here's an example: let's say I'm walking down the road and this huge mean-looking Rotweiler in the next yard over that is foaming at the mouth and barking aggressively and sprinting toward me. But I also notice that it's got a bulky metal chain attached to its collar and the chain is secured to a sturdy pole. I might panic for a brief moment and take a few steps back, but it'll run full speed into the end of its lead and yelp as it gets yanked back by its neck. I can just laugh at the dog all I want cause I know it can't touch me. This massive beast was made completely powerless just because I took a few steps back. That big bad dog all of a sudden looks pretty pathetic. I can walk that path every day without a worry as long as I just stay on the road. Easy. Now imagine the same exact scenario, except there's no chain. Now THAT'S exciting! That would be an unforgettable chase and you'd get quite the workout. I instantly have more fear and respect for the animal. If crybabies leave the game because of it, oh well. This was never intended to be a game for crybabies.
/thread
Comparing trains to non-trains ignores the entire context of the rest of the game. I can dream up a list of a hundred different "challenging" mechanics that can be added to Pantheon. Applying the logic of "trains add more challenge than non-trains" is a line of reasoning that could be used to justify adding literally any and every challenging mechanic one can think of to the game.
I'd like there to be more nuance in the decision making process than "EQ did it" or "it's more challenging than the alternative(s)". That said, I guess this is another scenario where it's "already been decided" so any discussion about it is pointless.
The absolute best part of any game is the community. And, historically speaking, the #1 reason for community to gather is discord. Overcoming problems by joining forces builds and strengthens lasting bonds.
Bring it on. I welcome the people who want to grief me. I will make 2 new friends and ruin your day.