Dullahan said:Oddly enough, the shady type of play we're talking about did not even exist on Rallos zek during my tenure '00-'02. Talk about a reputation, being a jerk there hurt. It basically meant you had to beg for mercy, join a PK guild, or reroll. People fought, or they got along, but there wasn't a lot of disrespect being thrown around. RZ was hardcore with item loot, and players mostly did not bad mouth or even attack each other unless one was in a PK guild or in a guild at war with another. It was mostly in good fun.
Agree with you Dullahan I played on RZ from 00-06 , seldom was I ever trained . In fact I was rarely killed by pkers . It's all a matter of how you played your game .
For every action thier is a reaction , and so forth ..
My stance on this is simple (perhaps too simple):
The more you take opportunites for "Bad" out of the game, the more you take opportunities for "Good" along with them.
I am in touch with the fact that persons of all personality types play this genre of game. Some are abrasive and take joy in greifing others. It is my hope though that this community will have far less of these than those you find in most of the recent MMOs. I am also tired for needing to "turn off" General chat channel that are over run with greifers and trolls.
What I am hoping for:
A game in which every player's advancement within the game is a result of their actions and choices in the game world. I am sick of cash shops giving the players with the fattest wallets in game advantages over those with slimmer wallets ! Frankly I expect to pay a subscription in order for this to be possible and I'd be happy to lay down my credit card to make it happen.
A game that challenges me with deep immersive content... while providing a user interface that is adaptive and responsive. (Something less cryptic than the original EQ one... perhaps more in tune with how EQ2's UI functioned) I don't want the world handed to me on a silver platter... give me some meat... make me stretch for my goals. When things are too easy... there is less of a feeling of accomplishment. When I hear DING ! ! I want to feel like tossing confetti in the air and have a big grin on my face !
A game in which the classes are defined and actually have roles that make grouping a meaningful and enjoyable experience. I have been playing MMOs since 2000 and Everquest (my very first MMO and the ones I played the longest) had this aspect pinned down the best!
A game that is not now and will never be over run with Bot Armies. IMO all players need to be PLAYING their games.. not using automated this and that to play it for them ! This just creates a "He with the most accounts and most elaborate automation software wins" scenario. :( It also frustrates the rest of the players that are trying to accomplish their in game goals and enjoy themselves the way the game was intended to be played !
Also I love variety.... different sorts of quests, immersive crafting (I love the depth of the VG crafting system), gathering, housing decor, raids.
Give me an in game world that looks like this... and I will live in it happily for years !
Kelem said:Wandidar said:My stance on this is simple (perhaps too simple):
The more you take opportunites for "Bad" out of the game, the more you take opportunities for "Good" along with them.
/Agree Having the bad, gives opportunity for that much more good.
Agreed. Without choice, there is no meaning.
Please refer to EQ1 for how to create greatness.
KSing? They who do the majority of damage wins.
Training? Bad behavior is usually repeditive, monitor and suspend if it really gets taken too far. Please dont make this game a padded-room.
Top Guild not letting the weaker guilds drink from the pool of loot? Get motivated and beat them or join them. Please dont water the game down with "everyone gets their turn". I am sure that your target audience will embrace the challenge. On a PvP server this isnt a problem, it is perferred to have the freedom to be dominant.
Top Guild not letting the weaker guilds drink from the pool of loot? Get motivated and beat them or join them.
It will be often not possible to beat them. Especially when you have a job. I highly doubt that people will cancel their jobs to get loot from mobs. They will cancel their Pantheon subscriptions first because there is no content for them.
Greetings
I understand your concern. However, not all olympians can get a gold metal. If they did, it wouldn't be worth anything because everyone got one. Any deviation from that is how you end up with "modern" theme-park MMOs.
If they make this a game where "everyone is a winner" we all lose out in the end.
Greattaste said:
It will be often not possible to beat them. Especially when you have a job. I highly doubt that people will cancel their jobs to get loot from mobs. They will cancel their Pantheon subscriptions first because there is no content for them.
Greetings
In the game of life, there will be winners and losers. Any deviation from that is how you end up with "modern" theme-park MMOs.
If they make this a game where "everyone is a winner" we all lose out in the end.
See this is where I think some are painting it a bit too too black and white. Any deviation will NOT magically make this into modern themepark MMO #747. I cant speak for all, but Im sure most dont want everything handed to them. Im sure most dont want to eliminate challenge or competition. The fact is that if it all boiled down to loot or experiencing the content. Id choose to experience the content. Its not about getting something for nothing. Its about spending a lot of time spinning my wheels and putting in hours and hours of my time and not even getting a chance to even face said challenge. To say nothing of whether or not I get my ass kicked by a Raid Boss or if I even get ANY loot. I dont expect to claim the mob all the time, or even most of the time, but I do expect to get it some of the time.
The only thing that matters most to me in all of this is the comraderie earned through shared struggle. Live or Die, Win or Fail, Loot or no Loot. Its hard to forge those bonds at a high level if there is never a chance to do it. And joining a larger guild is a horrible idea. Thats like telling the small business man to pack up shop and roll over for Walmart.
Should bad things be able to happen. Absolutely! But as I said we do need to apply common sense to an issue sometimes and look at the bigger picture. Not only from one angle (immersion, social element, mechanics, .... pick one).
Also I prefer first claim/taging a mob. I dont have and never have had an issue with KSing. One of the many bad things Im in favor of because this is an open world game and your name wasnt written on the mob. So why would you have first access to it??? And Id argue it a much more genuine method than %damage for true contested mob situations. Percent damage in my mind is just an excuse to gain a mob they shouldnt have because they lost the race to claim it first. I know that this is an unpopular opinion here though but I thought Id mention it.
I am not sure if this is the right place to bring this up, please forgive this derail-
Does a functioning "guild wars" mechanic have a place in a PvE setting?
Even on Role play servers I would hear old players talking about how it would be good if guild wars actually worked- along with: Good-grouping-with-Evil exp penalty and of course- the Hybrid exp penalty. WoW seemed to thrive on this initially " lets go attack the Horde". they seemed to get it right at least on release as I understand it.
It seemed strange for me to hear this so long ago, from those devout PvE roleplayers. To the point wherere I also was swayed and thought it would be fun- adding the "real" politics to the already faction politic in game.
Capulet and Montague/"The Fantastiks" dynamic aside (as would naturally occur from people and manifest in the avatars? the role play is already there!)
What would be the rules?
Guild X delclares war on Guild Y
Guild member X is ...travelling. Open season! (?)
Guild member X is now in a group. Guild member X cannot be attacked.
Guild member X is in group with guild member Y. Guild member X or Y cannot be attacked.
Guild member X is runing through area populated by Guild Y- but then groups with Guild member Y- Guild member X disbands when through and safe.
(Guild group Y, fearing such espionage- forces grouping among guild Y- constantly, or at important times when Guild Y states so)
My reckoning is on a PvP server, it would mean nothing, on a PvE server it would mean intruigue.
Could Guild X declare war on one character ( from a toggle in a drop down like an anti-fiends list) where all members of the guild then would be prevented- automatically from being able to group with said person- the system would just not allow it.
Greattaste said:I understand your concern. However, not all olympians can get a gold metal. If they did, it wouldn't be worth anything because everyone got one. Any deviation from that is how you end up with "modern" theme-park MMOs.
If they make this a game where "everyone is a winner" we all lose out in the end.
Sorry but IMHO it is not a valid comparison. Winning a gold medal has something to do with training and athletic skills. Getting boss mobs because other players can not play because they have jobs not. We will see whether the game will be fun for those players with jobs. Especially when all interesting content is monopolized by 24/7-guilds.
Greetings
I miss when having a real life was its own reward and those playing MMOs casually had no expectation of achieving everything.
I'd argue that everything seemed more rewarding then - for the casual player included.
Golden thread lol... haha i pissed myself reading this as it unravels... love Dullahan's prediction at the beginning and then bam there it is lol.. great to see Krix is not just lurking woot! :p and please let the rose coloured glasses thing go... rofl, half of us are currently or have been recently playing the p99 or phinigel version of the game you are refering to with these "rose coloured glasses" we are all supposed to be unable to take off lol
Sabot said: Gotta have trains and all the bad stuff or the good stuff will not matter. See a few claiming they want a challenging game but none of the bs that was part of old school eq. They are in the wrong place I hope. They seem to want a sterile gaming experience. No trains, no naked corpse runs, no big xp losses on death ect. They miss the point. Those unpredictable actions of others, those harsh penalties, they make the game real. I think some here really want a lobby game and instancing. Why would you want Pantheon? Why play in a world with no instances if all you care about is the challenge of the fight? Here the environment itself, in this case other players, are part of the challenge. If all you care about is getting the mechanic of the fight down things will get stale and boring fast. In the end none of the fights matter. None of the loot matters. Years from now all you will have are the memories. I like many of you have hundreds if not thousands of memories from eq1. Vivid amazing memories that make me smile, even the bad ones. You hear this from anyone that played during the frat few expansions. I listen to other people and the pest they can do is some Leeroy Jenkins sort of story how they got some item once. They might have good memories of high end content or some super raid fight but that's it. I have memories of misty thicket at level 8 giving serious thought about entering runny eye before I knew what it really was. Many more lie that. If they sanitize this game for the mass it will be just like every other mmo launched since 2004. Might do ok for a spell but will die an early death.
Well said. Villany exists in the real world, why should the virtual world be any different? I've seen several comments stating "It interferes with my gaming experience" I would counter that it is part and parcel of the gaming experience. Playing in an antiseptic environment that forces players to play in a specific way lessens the game imho. Allow players to play. Will there be bad apples? Absolutely there will be a$$hats. But, dealing with them just adds spice to the game. Maybe its just me, but I don't get folks that just want to login and go about leveling their toons without facing any hurdles other than the the ones provided by the game itself. Dealing with other players, both good and bad, adds so much more fun to the game. Personally, I login to have an adventure. Yes, I have general goals in mind, but my primary goal is to explore and have fun along the way. Leveling to me is just something that happens when it happens. Don't be in a rush to reach max level. Savor the game in whatever comes your way on any given day. Some days will be great, other days not so much, but the memories created by both can stay with you for a lifetime. Just my 2cp.
Larirawiel said:Top Guild not letting the weaker guilds drink from the pool of loot? Get motivated and beat them or join them.
It will be often not possible to beat them. Especially when you have a job. I highly doubt that people will cancel their jobs to get loot from mobs. They will cancel their Pantheon subscriptions first because there is no content for them.
Greetings
Let me preface my response with this: I have no intention of pursuing any raid content. It's just not my thing. I did raid back in the day when I could play for 12 hours straight because I was in guilds of real life friends that required attendance. I didnt particularly enjoy it, and I dont see myself ever pursuing it. I could see the occasional attendance happening in my future if all the stars align, but it would be a whim coupled with pure chance that someone needed one more to join, not a plan.
There are tens of thousands of people who played EQ who never atteneded a raid and who only canceled their subscriptions after years of play. And their cancelations had nothing to do with who killed Trakanon or any other raid mob. It is a false premise to suggest that people will rage quit because they dont get to kill a particular mob because people with more time on their hands did.
It's been demonstrated over and over again that the majority of players couldnt give a rats ass about raid content. They dont want to sit around for an hour waiting for 30 other people to show up. They dont want to spend an hour after that going thru the dungeon to the raid mob. They dont enjoy the prospect of a 15 minute fight that they probably wont get any loot from even if they win, and the alternate outcome if they fail of additional hours recovering bodies is nauseating. They find that the obsession over some virtual pixels to get an incremental increase in power to be wholly valueless when compared to hanging out with 5 friends in some dungeon somewhere.
And suggesting that if they cant kill that dragon that there is no content for them is a rather ridiculous suggestion. In every game I've ever played there is far more group content than raid, and complaints about the lack of content always arise from the raiders, not the groupers.
I can appreciate a level of envy for those that can regularly consume raid content. For some people that experience is very compelling, the successes are sweet, and the gains in character power are great. But to suggest that if this experience cant be had that the rest of the game is somehow diminished is just, well, sad.
I've always felt that without a tier of content and power in the game I am gauranteed never to experience personally, the gameworld can never fill me with awe. I want the awe. I NEED the awe. That's what I miss in games that ensure I can get everything if I just play for enough weeks.
I have to say I don't entirely agree with the "but I have a job" argument. I knew many young people in most of the games I played that went to school, worked a part time job, had responsibilities around the house and still put in a good amount of time into the game they played and where rewarded for it, and didn't feel cheated for what they weren't able to achieve/experience. If you’re only willing to put a small amount of your free time into the game don't expect to be a top player seeing all the content, that would make for a very boring game if that was possible.
One of my favourite feelings in a game is looking at the top players, seeing how cool and awesome they were in game, and working my way up to that peak and feeling the sense of achievement when I did.
On a side note, the Olympic athlete analogy is kind of valid, if the Olympian had to work 8 hours a day, take care of their kids etc, they most likely would not be an Olympian because they had no time to train, they are Olympians because that IS their job, they spend almost all their time training for years to reach that level.
I can't beleive there were that many times people encountered intentional greifing.
I played EQ1 for 5+ years and only recall a couple instances of intentional training, and the guy had a reputation of doing so and therefore was a pariah. He often got suspended for a couple weeks at a time.
KSing and Ninja Looting was a little more common, but even that was somewhat rare and often not intentional.
Now as far as high end raid issues, I can't speak of, I never cared for those events or the people that ran them, so I seldom got involved. I do recall as time went on, and the raiding guilds got bigger, they got to the point that they did not care about their reputation within the world, as they didn't need any outside assistance to do anything, and could control eveything around them. But even that was not griefing, they just had so many members that they had most of the big boss mobs perma-camped.
Fulton said:I can't beleive there were that many times people encountered intentional greifing.
I played EQ1 for 5+ years and only recall a couple instances of intentional training, and the guy had a reputation of doing so and therefore was a pariah. He often got suspended for a couple weeks at a time.
KSing and Ninja Looting was a little more common, but even that was somewhat rare and often not intentional.
Now as far as high end raid issues, I can't speak of, I never cared for those events or the people that ran them, so I seldom got involved. I do recall as time went on, and the raiding guilds got bigger, they got to the point that they did not care about their reputation within the world, as they didn't need any outside assistance to do anything, and could control eveything around them. But even that was not griefing, they just had so many members that they had most of the big boss mobs perma-camped.
Too be fair, I was griefed far more in EQOA than EQ1 (or EQ2). Console generation I suppose, but there were so many great aspects of EQOA that were so ahead of it's time though—it was worth it. Point of my orginal post was: we can't take out the mechanics that allow for drama/reputation. It was part of the immersive experience that made the early games so great, and a big reason why everything thing since feels so meh.
The point about people not having jobs not being able to compete is an invalid argument for an MMO (my opinion only - and I apoloize if it sounds harsh).
To me, it's a "lowest common denominator" argument. That is, it says that the game should be designed to allow people who have jobs able to get everything. Disregarding the notion that most of the people playing the game will either have jobs or be in school (thus eating up parts of their day) - I've never been sure where that argument ends.
Notably: If they say "Ok, so-and-so group of people say we should let people who have a standard job win the universe, let's do that!" - well, what about the people who have to work two jobs? Does the job argument apply to them too? Or does it stop where one person or group's personal requirements are met? What about the people who work three jobs?
The simple truth is this: The developers have to pick a target amount of playtime they think players will play on average, and plan content around that target time... If they say a reasonable amount is for players to commit 2 hours a night... and you can only commit 1, then you will likely struggle. If you, on the other hand, play 6, you will consume content too quickly. Pick a number for them to shoot for - the greater than, less than math stays the same.
What will be important is for you to know what they consider an "average player" for the game - and then decide what you want to do.
Feyshtey said:
I can appreciate a level of envy for those that can regularly consume raid content. For some people that experience is very compelling, the successes are sweet, and the gains in character power are great. But to suggest that if this experience cant be had that the rest of the game is somehow diminished is just, well, sad.
I think that is sad as well. But I will say that for me that the challenege and progression of my character or my guild doesnt have to come from a "raid", just more broadly speaking "endgame". Be that low man or normal group size or raid. One or more of those avenues should present itself as a good way to do this as long as Im willing to commit the time and effort. However, if I spend 8 hours a night every weekday and all day on the weekends in game and can never achieve anything then there is a serious problem (extreme example I know). Of course some of this would have to do with server population and the number of "hardcore" guilds on the server. But overcrowding or some mega guild of assholes should not be the reason I cant get high end content. Now lack of time or commitment would be a good reason. Lack of skill would be a good reason as well. Trying to solo everything would also be a good reason why I cant have high end content. And all that being said, if its truly contested then let it be first come first serve. Should I get a contested mob all of the time? No (no one should or its broken). Should I get it most of the time? No (right place + right time) Should I get it some of the time? Absolutely (accounting for proper dedication of time and effort). Should I win all the time? Hell No (I hope that high end encounters will never be an 100% win no matter how many times you have beat it). Should I get the drop all the time? Hell No (RNJesus is real, be prepared to cry as the top endgame raid mob drops absolutely nothing for the 3rd consecutive time).
I worked and went to school back in classic EQ days. As hardcore as everyone claims EQ was, I was regularly killing raid tiered mobs. Often playing off and on for only a few hours a day. Not only did I kill them, I had quite a bit of loot from them. I actually had characters on two servers with raid loot.
We are getting pretty off topic here, but I'm afraid when discussing this topic, far too many people use p99 for their basis of comparison. That was not at all representative of either of the servers I played on back when there were dozens of servers.
I think talking about training and "bad things" is a little premature right now. Without knowing the mechanics of the game, we can't really measure the impact of this. Important mechanics would include: death penatlies, camping mobs versus wandering mobs, how agro will finally work, zoning, is there zoning?, FD/mem blur style mechanics. I mean, does anyone even know if it will be possible to actually train a bunch of mobs a long ways? Maybe mobs will be designed such that in most cases: You hit it, you buy it! I certainly hope for this. Make it so you can't escape. No more casting SoW and running for the zone line to bypass content. Give the mobs root spells, temporary speed boosts, stuns, snares, teleports, summons, ect... Wreck anyone that gets agro! I say, if they break the camp -> make them buy it.
Brad, end this conversation here. Do this and you will get rid of sooooo many things that ruin immersion. Like players running through dozens of camps knowing they can just out run mobs. Or acting all cutsie and out of sync with reality by dancing on top of Emporer Crush. (while he is alive)
Not every mob has to have these anti-training abilities. Just enough to make training a very hazardous operation. Throw in a significant death penalty and trains will be something people talk about having happened last century.
To address some of the other (related) issues:
Raid Mobs are over rated. Raiders tend to have a large amount of self importance in the community. Reading the thread about why people left MMOS, it is clear that a lack of community is the issue, not raid availability. The reason raiders get so much attention is because they tend to be the most vocal on forums. And casuals or adventures are not.
And as far as people getting all the awesome loot, and others not: I think about Velious, Dragons, Dwarves, and Giants and possibly the best faction idea I have ever seen. Set up factions. Make them mutually exclusive, or nearly. And tie much of the end game loot you can get to the factions you are in. Then there will be all sorts of combinations and no one can have them all. Who ever heard of an Ogre that weilded a Elven sword? There is no reason each player should be able to wield all of the items.
Finally: I am all for new ideas and systems. But develop the game using the hypocratic oath. Do no harm.
N.B. These are my opinions. Not necessarily facts.
Dullahan said:I worked and went to school back in classic EQ days. As hardcore as everyone claims EQ was, I was regularly killing raid tiered mobs. Often playing off and on for only a few hours a day. Not only did I kill them, I had quite a bit of loot from them. I actually had characters on two servers with raid loot.
We are getting pretty off topic here, but I'm afraid when discussing this topic, far too many people use the p99 for their basis of comparison. That was not at all representative of either of the servers I played on.
I freely admit ignorance of old EQ as well as P99. I do have experience from XI. Instanced content was excellent in many ways. And some types of open world content were great as well. Others were filled with insufferable drama that could chase people to the instanced content because the bad behavior on world bosses could get quite nasty. But ultimately the best indicator of this is todays gamer. They even have the "benefit" of Instances to "sanatize" the experience for them and yet I still read articles about mass bannings of cheaters, botters, etc about every week from different games sandbox to themepark. Now I like you would hope that Pantheon attracts superior quality of gamers, but Im not holding my breath. Look at all those loathsome bastards out there, its horrible, is it not?
Amsai said:Dullahan said:I worked and went to school back in classic EQ days. As hardcore as everyone claims EQ was, I was regularly killing raid tiered mobs. Often playing off and on for only a few hours a day. Not only did I kill them, I had quite a bit of loot from them. I actually had characters on two servers with raid loot.
We are getting pretty off topic here, but I'm afraid when discussing this topic, far too many people use the p99 for their basis of comparison. That was not at all representative of either of the servers I played on.
I freely admit ignorance of old EQ as well as P99. I do have experience from XI. Instanced content was excellent in many ways. And some types of open world content were great as well. Others were filled with insufferable drama that could chase people to the instanced content because the bad behavior on world bosses could get quite nasty. But ultimately the best indicator of this is todays gamer. They even have the "benefit" of Instances to "sanatize" the experience for them and yet I still read articles about mass bannings of cheaters, botters, etc about every week from different games sandbox to themepark. Now I like you would hope that Pantheon attracts superior quality of gamers, but Im not holding my breath. Look at all those loathsome bastards out there, its horrible, is it not?
Lol. I believe people are a product of their environment. The reason you see an increasing trend in loathsome individuals is because there is a trend in game design to replace cooperative play with solo play. Even in coop play, games are allowing almost complete anonymity through cross server automated grouping mechanisms; That leaves no part of a virtual world where a player will ever be held accountable for their actions. Of course people tend to be loathsome.
As soon as player success is based largely on one's ability to act sociably, that will change.