I've always been interested in the fact that agro range is distance based not line of site. It has bothered me a little that if i'm pulling and killing orcs or any mobs and his "Friends" can see or hear me doing it, it should cause them to come join the fight. Audio, Line of Sight should play a factor somehow.
I like the way of thinking, but I think this would be a nightmare. How would you ever get a safe pull? In some open camp areas, sometimes just about every mob can see another one, so the very first pull would chain-pull all the way to the back of the camp, because mob B would see mob A running off to kill you, and then mob C would see mob B going to help.. when does it stop? :)
Adjusting agro ranges is a touchy topic. It can inpact the game in a very negative way. Adjusted too harshly and the only way pulls would be safely done is via FD pulling or mem wipes (which I really hope do not exist here). I'm all for the AI being smarter but have to be careful about agro ranges.
If I read things right Pantheon will have mobs with different agros. Some will be by sight where others will have better hearing and larger agro radius from sounds. Different mobs will react differently from the environment around them rather than just the usual radius. So until we get in game and see how things are going I'll reserve my judgment on this one.
In EQ there were plenty of places where the only way to pull mobs was to have a FD puller or plenty of crowd control. This shouldn't change. Dot the mob run then FD, once his buddies make it back stand and bring one mob to the group. This only makes you rely on the community, which is perfect. Not every class should be a perfect puller.
Everquest used to do mob aggro very very well. Not all classes were good pullers and that was a great social interdependent game mechanic. It was interesting, challenging, and also had a consistency whereby you would learn various mob/zone aggro behaviors over time. This gave an experienced player an advantage over a new player, which was a veteran style reward in and of itself.
A few Everquest aggro mechanics included:
1) Distance from the mobs
2) How 'social' the mobs were (Influenced how mobs reacted to being split from their friends)
3) Your faction standing
4) Your level vs the mobs level
5) The zone you were in
6) See invis mobs
7) Some special zones, like the Umbral Plains, pretty much used a line of sight aggro system, which was particually challenging and fun
I liked the Everquest aggro system; it was challenging but also had a consistency to it, which allowed experienced players to gain skill at pulling.
In EQ you also had to know the difference between a world surface and an object surface. An NPCs aggro radius would not pass through a world surface but would pass through an object surface. A door, for example, was an object surface. Case in point. In the old East or West Commonlands there were some buildings with vendors inside. A wandering Orc would aggro through the walls because the structure wasn't part of the world, it was an object. Contrast that to the walls surrounding Freeport or a sharp corner in the tunnel of a dungeon. An NPC could be just around the corner and would not aggro.
I learned that the hard way very early when, in the old West Commonlands, I went AFK inside one of those huts near Befallen figuring because I was inside a hut and nothing could see me I would be safe. A minute later a wandering Giant stomped me to death through the roof.
This is one of my mine concerns as well. Much like the OP says, if a group of orcs can see his friend being attacked they should respond in some way. Either getting help, sounding an alarm or maybe even hiding if its a cowardly orc!
I understand the concerns of people who made comments and agree it could cause problems with balance and playability, however if the players are given the right tools, spells and abilities, then hopefully pantheon will find the right balance. Blindness and silence spells come to mind as well as rogue like characters causing distractions.
Myself, i do not mind if this means a bigger pull as long as we can control the fight with skill.
The problem with line of sight issues is that if you follow the idea to its natural conclusion you end up with linked mobs like in EverQuest 2 which was absolutely TERRIBLE! God I hated linked mobs so much. It literally made it impossible to single pull and removed all the skill of a good puller as people would just pull whole groups of mobs in one go. Please, please, PLEASE keep pulling as a skillful activity that can make or break a group.
I want a good puller to be able to single pull where a bad puller can't. Something to show people that you are good at your class compared to other people.
Vandraad said:In EQ you also had to know the difference between a world surface and an object surface. An NPCs aggro radius would not pass through a world surface but would pass through an object surface. A door, for example, was an object surface. Case in point. In the old East or West Commonlands there were some buildings with vendors inside. A wandering Orc would aggro through the walls because the structure wasn't part of the world, it was an object. Contrast that to the walls surrounding Freeport or a sharp corner in the tunnel of a dungeon. An NPC could be just around the corner and would not aggro.
I learned that the hard way very early when, in the old West Commonlands, I went AFK inside one of those huts near Befallen figuring because I was inside a hut and nothing could see me I would be safe. A minute later a wandering Giant stomped me to death through the roof.
This has become a huge set back for new devs... Collision checks are not being cared for as much anymore. If a wall is there, the pathing wont simply go around but straight through the wall. Half of the problem is the coding or a special Pathing engine designed to stop this.
The other problem is line of sight, and shouldnt that building have smashed to pieces? it was never designed for this and so many sublets of code being added to the pathing engine, los and building destruction.