If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
it is a really tough call here! it would have to depend on what bonuses i get for retirement. as of yet we have no idea of what types of things we get to keep. is it standard? do i get to choose? do the benefits compound?
if i get to choose what skills and abilities i get to keep and if the stat boost i gain can be distributed by me then sure!
even if i do not get to choose another method to make me do this is have the bonuses compound! if i max one char and reroll then do the same a second time if i get the stat bonus every time and extra abilities carry over then i will also do it.
if its random or if it doesnt stack then i probably will not. unless the abilites we get to keep are class special abilites like paladin's LOH or Monk's Feign death.
but overall i think i need more info on the system before i can confidently say i will surely reroll my max level. At this point all i can say is that I think the system looks neat and promising but if all i get out of it is a couple stat points and abilities like shield bash or Taunt then i am not sure its worth it.
I think I would personally. I end up rolling alts that eventually become my main and rotate characters that way.
If I understand this system correctly, I could roll a Summoner, play to to max and realize that wasn't the class I really want to play, then retire it to make a Necromancer (when they come out). The only downside is all of the cool things I accumulated on my Summoner may not be passed down. That is a lot of lost spells, gear, faction, and possible clickies/mounts wasted. Hmm, not too sure now.
I'm curious of a few things:
Progression micro (per player)
Player A: Wants to retire their character for bonuses and doesn't mind going through older content again. Perhaps they are the type that enjoys alts. They level up and eventually begin regearing their character with these extra bonuses. This still allows people to be flowing into lower level zones, helping new players, etc. The people who are looking to do this sort of "service" would be able to do so and get bonuses for doing so. Although this isn't my style of play, I did recently try to go back to Everquest and the lower zones were pretty empty in general. I remember many years back the tunnel where people would hang out and trade. It was so empty. Has it been mentioned if the retirement bonuses is a percentage of existing stats or a flat bonus? Compounding bonuses each time or base bonuses stacked onto each time? Is there more advantage to retiring a high AA/highly geared character or are the bonuses hardset? I'm also assuming the retirement may only become an option at a specific level? If not, are the bonuses pre-set based on retirement level? Would we have to rekey for zone access? Do they regrind faction?
Player B: Wants to stick to one character. Would AAs be a viable option for this person to be comparable to somebody retiring their character (assuming AAs make it in when this system is in)? This player may not mind grinding their AAs. This is where I fall. I personally want to build my character over many years (the specific character I started with) and generally not one to have many alts. I don't mind grinding AAs and progressing them and gear over the years. I would be pretty depressed feeling obligated to killing off/retiring my character (identity) just for bonuses that an AA system could otherwise also achieve (in a different way). Now obviously somebody who retired and grinded AA would surpass, but the player grinding AA over the long haul would simply have more AA because the retiring player would be starting over each iteration, with that player having more retiring bonuses getting stacked on.
Progression macro (guilds)
As a guild leader, I'm a little worried guilds would be in flux with revolving characters in and out and having to re-gear/re-key people which can slow down overall progression. Myself and my officers don't want to be a huge guild, but losing characters to retirement would need us to grow larger to have this higher rotation in/out buffer (beyond people leaving the game). Gearing people out in raid gear only to have them kill off/retire their character can also slow progression a good bit for the overall guild which brings up questions like "you're retiring next week, could you let this other person spend their DKP/roll instead since it won't be usable?". I can see some weird macro (guild) issues with this mechanic (not that they can't be overcome, but something hadn't had to work with before). When a character retires, would they come off the roster or stay in the roster with a retired notation? Could this get cluttered over time with multiple iterations of the same person?
TLDR
I think if there were an AA system it could provide one of two bonus progression paths (the other being retiring system). The AA system may only become available again post a certain level and maybe not carry over (since retirement bonuses would carry over). This may give both types of players progression paths while still keep lower level zones healthy. I'm open to opinions, just these are some thoughts I have.
Think of it as dying peacefully of old age (max level) and restarting fresh as your own son or daughter, keeping a few perks/benefits that your father/mother excelled in (AA points, journeyman crafter, combat passives etc.) if you choose to start as a different class altogether then you may lose some class specific perks that you max level main had for example but it may not matter if you have other benefits to help, there will be decisions to be made ;)
I love the idea, though my biggest concern about it is names. If my character's child, after my main character dies/retires, can have the same name (maybe like a “the 2nd”, “the 3rd” etc.) I’d be perfectly happy, but it’s the name that’s my biggest worry (don't want to have to come up with a whole bunch of names lol :P). I'd be pretty upset if I retire my first character make a new one then see someone running around with the name of my original character. If I'm able to name my "new" character the same as my original I can see myself using this feature a lot if it does in fact make for a more powerful character.
On that note I hope we have given and family names for our characters.
Rachael
As stated by others, without knowing what benefits there are to such a system, it is hard to make that determination.
Myself, it takes a long time for me to get to max level, if ever. I am not an end gamer, so I might consider such a system as an alternative when I did reach max level. I typically get close to max, to the point where without long time commitments, advancement is slow if at all, then roll an alt.
Me personally, I might use the system if it wasn't just max level, but say any level past a certain point (IE: like past lvl 40 of a 50 max cap). Where you would get diminshed benefits for early retirement, but it would be a more reachable goal for someone like me.
But ultimately, it would depend on what you get for doing it. Reaching max, at least we hope, will be a big time commitment, and giving all that up to start again needs to be worth the risk. You would essentially be alienating yourself form everyone you currently play/group with, unless they too re-roll.
The system is certainly useful for those who really want to play another class (or race/class combination) that isn't available at launch. So they can level up their second best alternative and switch over with slight bonuses when their best choice becomes available. Or, if you notice that your character isn't really what you thought it was (although then it's interesting...will it be possible to retire a say, lvl 20 or 30 character? So you try out classes and then switch to the one your really want, with bonuses).
The item loss is not so bad if you switch to a different class, since you probably couldn't use most old items anyway anymore. And if NO DROP isn't over-used, you may be able to save a lot of items by giving them to friends or putting them into the bank. Faction loss, and spell/ability loss are worse I think.
I can't imagine switching a well equipped, leveled up character for a lvl 1 of the same class however, just to gain some slight bonus. I hope that the sum of spells, items, factions etc that you gain in your travels may make this too costly.
The class and the name should be locked imo. But I really like the idea of replaying the path you did with the stronger and more knowledgeable version of yourself. It's like time travel :) Maybe add another option not to reborn but sacrifice your max lvl character for account wide exp gained?
Sarim said:...
Faction loss, and spell/ability loss are worse I think.
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When I read this I though; What if a faction may never fully trust/accept a character but through "generations" of that characters line it then opens up to them trusting and accepting them more and more. I do agree if we lose all factions and start from scratch with each generation this may come to be very tedious.
Rachael
Powergamers who will retire and come back up will know where to go and what to do, possibly be twinked and/or powerleveled (buffbots/etc). Their dependency on other low level (likely legit new) characters will be limited. It may "populate" lower level zones, but it'll probably be populated with people who honestly don't interact much/any with new people. It's just not what they're there for, bonuses are the reason they retired their main. If they wanted to linger around low zones, they'd be rolling alts not killing off their main.
If I were to retire my main, the time I'd be lingering around low level content would be pretty limited and with the people I'm bringing over into the game (and will meet in the game) will have plenty of assistance to blast through getting caught back up (as I'd do for them with buffbots, trash clears to bosses/camps/etc).
It'd be as efficient as possible as we'd be down a raider as they're catching back up so the sooner they get caught up the sooner that void is refilled. Trampling low level content will be an understatement. They won't be there to meet "new" people and smell the flowers, they're likely there to get their bonuses as min/maxers. This is why I go back to the AA system is a better fit for that type of player.
More casual players coming up or doing this are probably going to be frustrated often, we'll have most of the low level named spawns/camps locked down with upper level characters to get friends/guildmates their progency bonuses and back to raid status as quickly as possible. You can't fault their friends/guildmates for trying to get them caught back up in levels and gear to play with their mains again.
It sounds good on paper, but this has pretty significant ripple effects depending on how it will be introduced.
I think it's a wonderful idea. After playing P99 for a while now, and seeing how top heavy the game is, what a lot of folks are wishing for is a wipe of the server to start everyone fresh.
I believe the progeny system would have two positive benefits right out of the gate:
1. It would deter twinking A LOT. No more would you have a mob of top lvl people running around camping items for their alts. Not in the quantity you saw in EQ or VG, at least. Top lvl characters would be more interested in exploring and raiding and grouping before their time runs out and they kick the bucket. That would be a great bonus to the progeny system.
2. It would continuously keep the newbie areas and mid-game full of fresh faces and people to group with. The starter areas we began and grew to love, the places we still think of fondly - Remember when you would enter EQ after years just to see the old newbie log in Nek, or the EC Tunnel, only to find those places barren and empty? The progeny system might keep that from happening, especially if Brad and co fulfills their goal of horizontal progression.
Ideas.
1. Don't make the main characters "die". Have them retire. I'd want to still log onto my main just for the sake of nostalgia, even if I'm too old and crippled to go out and slay dragons. Make it so we can only use non-combat skills. So we can wander around, build campfires, maybe throw an odd buff to a newbie and offer advice. Or maybe we just want to sit in the tavern and regale people with our stories. Doesn't matter. I'd just like to have the option to play with the main character that I invested so much time into.
2. Make it a substantial amount of time. I forget how long the days/nights/years were in EQ. How do you determine retirement? Age, hours played, hours at top lvl? Which one?
3. Someone already mentioned this, but don't let our names die. Allow us to use "Tralyan II" or even use it as a surname like the Celtics of old. I am Tralyan, my son may be "Kilsin Ap Tralyan" (hehe).
Overall, I love the idea. It's a great solution to the dilemma of keeping an mmo fresh and new.
-Tralyan
I'm not really interested for this Progeny System and i'm sure will not use it. I never had the wish to sacrifice my old character to get a new one. I only need the first 10-15 levels to see whether the class is fun or not. If it is not fun then i start a fresh one.
Greetings
Eh... I forgot Pantheon even had this. I was just thinking how gimmicky it sounded like in another game thats sort of doing the same, except theyll die after a certain time or something. I think theyre even selling the "progeny" for real money (b2p game). Ill probably use it with an alt id probably have rerolled anyway. Honestly unless the stats are significant and/or the "son or daughter" gets a significant xp gain boost I probably wouldnt give up a main toon for it. If im going to reroll, I prefer having totally new characters anyway. New race, new class, not throw away months of camping, dungeons, rep grind, etc. only to get a "slightly yet noticeably better" character of the same race, possibly same class.
Then again, if by chance after release it was the only way to make some new hybrid race, like say a "half-elf," with different/merged racials, I could possibly gain some interest in it.
I don't think I would. I tend to make plenty of alts, but sacrificing a max level character to do so doesn't sound appealing.
I would also argue that any perks carried over will give the progeny new character an unfair advantage over a standard new character. AA's and passive combat abilities / benefits are a straight advantage. Crafting bonuses carrying over are as well. What I fear from this is it basically becoming required to level a character, retire it, and level another one to be fully needed / wanted / etc. No matter what any of us may say, there are plenty of elitest players out there that wont "accept" your character unless its a 2nd generation.
In the end it's not something that would keep me from playing, and as others have said we'll have to see how it actually turns out. I just don't want things to turn into needing to retire a character to stay relevant. That will cause either 1) people to not form close connections to their characters as they may not be playing them much longer , or 2) people being attached to their characters and not being able to retire them thus falling behind
I think it boils down to content availability.
If the content generation engine is aimed more at newer and higher levels of advancement/gear then it will not have as much incentive to create a progeny.
If the content generation is more broadly based and the progeny allows you to level up in a new environment (different continent) using different dungeons and zones then you might have more incentive to experience something new.
Once you start down the path of epic quests this might be a further detriment, but this could be overcome with lore such that your ancestor left you clues on how to take short cuts on the epic quest since they already completed it. "I see you are a descendant of XXXXX, warrior of legend. XXXXX left me this message for you if you ever came inquiring about uber sword of awesome."
As others pointed out elsewhere, it is difficult to make a sincere decision based on the limited details of the system. It reads like a politican's campaign promise; noticeably better abilities but not to the point that it unbalances things. If the progeny carries over AA or starts skills at a higher cap then it seems like this advantage would scale down as the progeny leveled up. This would solve the balance issue at max level, but then my progeny provides no significant advanatge over my now retired main. Effectively it has become nothing more than a time sink. From my understanding of the dev team and their vision I don't imagine this is the intent of the system.
I can see three situations where I would consider having progeny.
1. A new class that I prefer over my current main.
2. Downtime at end game. It seems like there will be enough faction rep to grind and other things to keep me busy at least for awhile, but eventually I might want to refine and progenate my main if the perks are worth it.
3. Cycling through alts. I am an altaholic and if there are limited character slots available per account I could see retirining one as I am ready to try something new.
Points of concern:
1. It will take awhile after launch to see the true effects of this system.
2. Potential to discourage new players as progeny will be inherently better. If that warrior can solo this mob why can't I seem to make it work.
3. Buyer's remorse. Can you un-retire a character if your progeny turns out to be a loser?
I think there's a good reason to do it in that you're constantly refeshing lower level characters for influx of new players. I think to work, it would depend on the balance of benefits. Too much would make higher level characters over powered, too little and there's no real reason to it. What if it unlocked a series of AA type situations? Like an ancestory tree or something that added both small stat benefits as well as some sort of cosmetic or RP aspects (own a bigger piece of land/home or something of that nature).
Personally, even though the game had its faults I loved the way FF XI handled the issue of keeping things fresh, by allowing you to level mutliple classes but limited the ones you could use at one time and put level/ability resctrictions on the sub-class. For those who never played, each class had to also be leveled up separately. It was almost like leveling alts, but with same character. Never understood why no one else ever adapted that part of the game.
spyderoptik said:As a guild leader, I'm a little worried guilds would be in flux with revolving characters in and out and having to re-gear/re-key people which can slow down overall progression. Myself and my officers don't want to be a huge guild, but losing characters to retirement would need us to grow larger to have this higher rotation in/out buffer (beyond people leaving the game). Gearing people out in raid gear only to have them kill off/retire their character can also slow progression a good bit for the overall guild which brings up questions like "you're retiring next week, could you let this other person spend their DKP/roll instead since it won't be usable?". I can see some weird macro (guild) issues with this mechanic (not that they can't be overcome, but something hadn't had to work with before). When a character retires, would they come off the roster or stay in the roster with a retired notation? Could this get cluttered over time with multiple iterations of the same person?
This is also my biggest concern. As someone who intends to run a hardcore progression based guild in Pantheon, the progeny system could in fact do a world of damage. If the benefits of it are too strong it is something that will have to be done in order to be a top tier competitor. If they are not that strong and only offer minor bonuses, you could have people that after a few months decide they want to main swap and just reroll. Causing a revolving door of new members needing to be brought in.
Now there are always people who will say 'but you don't HAVE to do anything, it's a choice" and that's true. But as someone who has been in top guilds in multiple games I can easily say that in order to be a top tier competitor in any game you use every part of the game to your advantage. So let's say the progeny system allows you to gain a 5% stat buff to your classes main stat. That buff to a main stat for any class would be huge. Maybe not at first but as the game progresses and the stats grow higher and higher it's an enormous jump up. Let's say progenies get an increase to a stat cap even, again that's a huge jump and would have to be done.
Now if the opposite is true and they gave only minor bonuses. Then what would the point of it be? The only benefit I see to it is if a person just does not have any interest in their class any longer. But if that's the case why not just reroll on an alt? The only way I would even think about doing this is if all of the crafting skills, faction reps, languages, gear, and AA points all remained. If I didn't have to redo all of the time sinks then maybe I would consider it. But even then it's a very weak maybe. Why would I want to basically destroy a character I spent a ton of time working on? Why not keep it and if I decide later on that I want to play it again I have that option.
There's just a lot more negative than positive in this idea for me.
Thanakos said:It would be neat if you used this progeny system to make mixed races available in the future. Perhaps a half elf is only available through progeny.
This is actually a cool idea. Maybe being able to select a race that your main would mate with and being able to retain a trait of the original race while getting the traits of the new one. But again this could become overpowered depending on racial traits. If the Myr can breath underwater but not be X class then that class doing a progeny to obtain that trait would make them better than those that did not. I know as a warrior, rogue, etc class that can't cast an EB spell this would be huge. That is just an example and completely based on whether or not we have kedge type zones