Although I think it is a valued program, I think it should be limited to starting areas only. During a video Brad had mentioned of having free to play up to a certain level (lvl 5 for example). This would be a good time in a player's learning curve to receive some help or guidance. I think a guide is important at a time like this when someone is new to the game.
Now granted, many of us here are gaming vets and I'm guessing most, if not all, would not want help or guidance. In fact, I think the reason we are here is based on the premise it will be a niche and/or difficult game.
Kilsin said it best when help should (and it will) come from the community.
Lakland said:Kilsin said it best when help should (and it will) come from the community.
I think so too. A "player help" tag is in theory a good idea, however I think its not necessary b/c of the goodness of the community. In practice I could see myself leaving the tag on, and then when Im busy or afk poor newbies may try to contact me and get no response. I like the out-of-the-box thinking on that.
I was a Community Council Member for SOE and I think (I am biased of course lol) it was a great program. For those that want to learn what my program entailed (or just read a great article on Community Managers), Brasse wrote about it here: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/198563/Sony_Onlines_three_rules_of_engagement_for_community_management.php. ; I am under a NDA for it so I do not talk about my past experiences, however I did want to pipe in and remark that from my stand point - I feel these programs are very worthwhile. I do feel that running something by (whether it is a post or a game feature) someone with a fresh set of player eyes that is not part of the development team can help smooth company-player communications and increase the quality of the game.
I loved guides - I do not normally "roleplay" (love rprs - I think they get the most enjoyment out of a game), but when a guide would come by - I would have fun RPing up a storm! I was once stuck in a doorway and a GM came over to me to assess the situation and free me - what a wonderful experience it was to have a "face" to the customer service of the game - instead of a ticket/tell from a GM. These experiences help you feel it is more of a world, it is more fun and they add to the immersive quality of the game. Human beings need to feel validated; they need to know that their concerns and likes are heard. In a community driven game like Pantheon, I think having this bridge of interaction from the company to the players will make all involved feel more like it is a home and a pleasant place to be.
This feeds into something I was thinking about - some kind of player reputation 'score'. High rep players would be those you could be secure in trusting. Low rep players could 'repair' their score by helping people out.
Something to encourage community spirit?
Obviously, those kind of systems can be abused somewhat, but you'd hope it would have an overall positive effect.
Lakland said:Although I think it is a valued program, I think it should be limited to starting areas only. During a video Brad had mentioned of having free to play up to a certain level (lvl 5 for example). This would be a good time in a player's learning curve to receive some help or guidance. I think a guide is important at a time like this when someone is new to the game.
Now granted, many of us here are gaming vets and I'm guessing most, if not all, would not want help or guidance. In fact, I think the reason we are here is based on the premise it will be a niche and/or difficult game.
Kilsin said it best when help should (and it will) come from the community.
I can agree that a guide program is a good idea. Having people who want to be there to help others is a good thing. I think this should be something that those people have the option to sort of 'flag' to do though. Not everyone wants to spend all of their time running around helping others. Sometimes they have had a bad day and just want to play the game themselves.
Reason I quoted this post is entirely for the last sentance. Help should and will come from the community, from us. However, people need to remember that the community at large is only what we make it. Community is most games recently has been completely atrocious. If that's what people bring to Pantheon then the help will not be there. The community would then do more harm than good. So while we may not always agree, we need to strive to have the best community possible. Even the hardcore top end raiders need to be held accountable. No elitism and no hatred towards those 'scrubs' should be anywhere around. That's the mentality I plan to push with my guild anyway. Being the best isn't just beating the hardest content. It's about proving your skills and having the community actually back you up. A hated guild needs to have a hard time continuing the game imo.
Perhaps you are right but I rarely remember anyone helping me in early EQ, and in VG I didn't need it.
Interesting. I feel like this may be an exception, rather than the norm. My memories are full of helpful people in both EQ and VG, more than willing to lend a hand.
Maybe you were a butt head! Were you a butt head?!
-Tralyan
I was a Guide in EQ1, and thought it was a fantastic program; seeing a green named Character appearing in a zone, as a player, was an event in itself, and the number of people who chose to get in character when they wouldn't normally do so otherwise helped to build the tapestry of experiences that kept it interesting for players. I'm based in Australia and, as that was the low time in terms of player numbers, when it was a quiet night and I was Guiding, I'd often have interactions from the same people; it helped to build community.
I remember when one of the Servers was offline for some reason, and the entry Chatroom was going feral, getting a few hundred players to log into my Guiding Server, roll up Lvl 1's in Qeynos, and have a naked run to Freeport; only one or two managed to make it through, but egging them on, watching them rush through Kith Woods, or the Gorge of King Xorbb, and dying in their droves, while perverse, was really funny for everyone involved; it took a highly charged situation and made it a fun(ish) experience, and didn't take the SOE staffers away from what they were doing to try and whip the Server Hamsters back into order to achieve.
I still remember the screams. Aah, the old days. ;)
Kalgore said:zewtastic said:This was done before in EQ and Vanguard and was exploited by a number of the so-called guides. They used inside information and special guide tools to give their friends and guilds special access or key details needed for encounters, enriched their own accounts and secondary accounts on other servers. This led to guides also farming rare items with inside knowledge and thus the selling of items and access for real $$.
Any system of this nature has to be very carefully vetted.
in EQ that was 100 percent FALSE. it had nothing to do with the guide program as guides had no real special tools. The cheating was due to a few guilds having friends that worked as Devs/GM those Gms gave raid strats to them making it easier as well as spawning mob loot so they got really good items. The other case was invovling the test server and allowing an entire guild to transfer off in full gear that was farmed with Gm help as well.
I saw this and it crippled the economy, and it was for this reason that any cash shop discussion I look for those trying to sneak in "server transfers" as a valid item for cash shop.
The phrasing usually comes like this; "caps, Maps, mugs Name changes, sevrer transfers, those I see as good points for cash shop, but in game items? no"- when I see it , I react and say no to server transfersprecicely for this reason, it is evil hidden in good, they are sheeps in wolves clothing.
Want to transfer? make a new toon on that server.
Otherwise- progenize. (hey that's kinda catchy)
zewtastic said:This was done before in EQ and Vanguard and was exploited by a number of the so-called guides. They used inside information and special guide tools to give their friends and guilds special access or key details needed for encounters, enriched their own accounts and secondary accounts on other servers. This led to guides also farming rare items with inside knowledge and thus the selling of items and access for real $$.
Any system of this nature has to be very carefully vetted.
I agree 100%.
I remember the guides well:
But personally? I wouldn't want them in Pantheon. The risk of abuse is just (historically demonstrated, repeatedly) too high.
If a player guild or group wants to organize into a "Welcome to Terminus" type of thing, where they have no powers whatsoever, and are just there to help and assist new players? Sure, great idea.
Beyond that? Not a fan. Without the risk of dismissal for abuse (as in, you're an employee making your living from VR) I can see any Guide system just repeating history.
I think GMs are a great concept and that Kilsin's stance on harsh action taken against abusers is an appropriate response. The benefits outweigh the negative potentials, from my perspective. Also, who doesn't want dev/GM-held events and random silliness (within reason, of course)?? That type of stuff adds a nice social aspect to the game and creates closer community bonds, and I'm all for that.
Kilsin said:Happy to hear this. GMs and Guides were great to help people when there were issues and who didn't like the fun weird events?I have a few things in mind that I will be discussing with the team but sadly it is just too early to start putting together anything like this. As the Community Manager, I can assure you that this is one of my biggest focusses and when the time is right, I will be seeking the community for help with communication and in-game functions.
I am a big fan of a Guides program and something we called a "Player Council" or "Community Council" in VG, where some select members of the community are picked based on attitude, forum behaviour, in-game behaviour, activity and how respected they are within the community to help communicate community issues/likes/dislikes to myself and the team and we use these members to be the voice of the community and help communicate things of importance to us.
Customer Service is a separate field that is handled internally behind the scenes but Community Management is definitely my field and one that will become too big for me to handle alone! (I hope anyway lol) and that is when we will most likely look at a Guide Program and a possible Community Council, nothing is set in stone of course and these are just my thoughts being thrown around for you to get an idea of where I'm at with it but it will become more of a focus further along in development and maybe something we could set up during mid-late testing.
The Player Council is what I'm really excited to see. I've always felt there is a rift between developers and players because developers know what is intended and that creates a different view on things than the players get. Players might think a bugged or exploitable skill is just how it's supposed to work, the dev will know better. So, in that sense it's nice to be able to freely communicate, and while forums are great we all know how cluttered they can get. I was on the EQ Community Council back in the later days of my playing (like '10-'13 somewhere in there) and it was a great experience. I got to see some cool things, but more importantly pass on community requests, or correct a dev on some bard thing because no one really knew how they worked :D. I feel like the council was able to stop some bad decisions and help brainstorm some great ones (cursed items were great, evolving item that starts out ok, gets worse and worse until it finally maxes out and becomes awesome).
Anyways, very happy to hear this. So many games could benefit from these things.
Special Events and live community interaction were overwhelmingly positive back in the early days of Everquest. The issues mentioned above were more about the powers some guides were given. A guide system could be implemented without passing along abilities that could lead to abuse. The best guides are actors within the game, not external support staff inserting themselves into the action.
I've never needed to see a "Helper" tag above someone's head to ask for help, and receive help from whomever was willing to aid me.
In the same note, I've always been willing to help someone when asked if I am able. A "Helper" tag is not especially a bad idea, but the person would certainly need to be tried and true to represent the VR logo.
I like the idea of community simply helping others because it is a good way to be. Its just right.
Personally, Ive always tried to join a respectable guild, or formed one myself, to create that community, one that is fun and supportive.
I remember hearing that you had to /hug a GM whenever you saw one, and that there were these precious things called "soul stamps" that only the GM's or guides could see and some could be good and some could be bad and it was better to have good.
But I do like the idea of GM involvement and guide involvement if it can remain- for lack of a better word- pure in heart and intent.
I mean I would think that is a perk of working for VR.,being able to run or create neat, and unique events, even if its pulled form a DnD playbook from 1985 and get paid for it. How cool would it be for a VR employee to brag "yeah, I get paid to play computer games, seriously."
I was a guide on EQ1 was really fun being able to interact with the players. I would like the abiblity to change from gear and stuff the players have outgrown and maybe have pots and stat food. May not the best in the game but worth them coming to an event. I had submitted a few ideas before SOE went out of giving us like a 10% to 25% xp pot we could give out for a big quest or like a Misty Picnic basket that gave the player +25 health and well rested for like 30 minutes or something that was not game breaking. Cookies and Milk were fun as well and regaling stories of heroes I had known/met on my way. I always told the tale of the headless horseman during the halloween events or the story of the man with the golden arm or tale tale heart or something like that but with a Norrathian twist.
vjek said:But personally? I wouldn't want them in Pantheon. The risk of abuse is just (historically demonstrated, repeatedly) too high.
If a player guild or group wants to organize into a "Welcome to Terminus" type of thing, where they have no powers whatsoever, and are just there to help and assist new players? Sure, great idea.
Beyond that? Not a fan. Without the risk of dismissal for abuse (as in, you're an employee making your living from VR) I can see any Guide system just repeating history.
I agree, they are not needed in Pantheon. EQ was a different time and it was a new type of game that completely lost people. Guides made sense. Now a days, everyone, well, almost everyone will already know what they are doing.
Another thing that can absoultly ruin a game for me. Is the forums community managers. We all know the type and what they are like, and I've completely avoid game forums and games because of them.
After reading this necro thread I never knew of...I don't know if I like the council idea. Out of all my experience with these types of things they usually like picking people of like mindness and won't really bring actual problems to the table. If any vetting is going on, it should be more morally than same likes and dislikes. I have had run ins with people who are designated to spots like that an it's pretty much there words over your words, and since they hold that type of title they win even without evidence.
Usually people that I've run into treat it more like a superiority complex rather than a public service type of thing. So you need the right mindset for something like that, but even then favortism plays a big part in this type of system and isn't that healthy.
Ultimately if you are going to do a council type of structure for what the community thinks, then it needs to have different types of people and perspectives that may go against the grain. Sort of get like 10-15 different types of players and have them all debate it out. Of course, you look for people who can debate decently and have good ideas rather than 15 random people, but that is the extent that vetting should go.
With respect to guides I am not sure I see a problem with having them. If they abuse things they can lose the guide position and even be banned from the game for deliberate misconduct. But I am thinking of a guide that has limited powers to help players and give them nice things as the guides in EQ2 gave out shinies (collectibles). Not a guide with power to discipline players although maybe one with power to warn them and report them to GMs. If goldspam is a problem maybe the power to block chat temporarily with automatic appeal to a GM so that the spammers are blocked quickly but if a guide uses the power for anything but goldspam he or she is toast.
With respect to a player council if all it can do is make recommendations to VR I see no reason not to have one. But with more transparancy than some games use. Put any council recommendation on the forums in advance and give people time to comment. Look for members that have been active on the forums and have shown reasonableness not just aggressiveness. Try to have represenatatives of the raiding, crafting, casual player and any other communities.
As many of us know, a guide program has been talked about for many years.
It is especially important to utilize volunteer guides heavily because of the small dev team. VR simply doesn't have the man power to police the game on their own.
Even though the plan is to have reputation matter so that the community is somewhat self regulated, the guide program will hopefully be given enough power to police major issues so that VR doesn't have to spend man hours on something that they can't ever hope regulate themselves with the limited number of paid staff.
If all guides can do is escalate any major issues to a GM then the guide program will be a waste. Let VR/Kils spend time regulating the guides themselves and let the guides handle any issues.. At least that is a possibility.
The problem is, if they aren't employees of Visionary Realms, then there will be abuse, as history has shown.
If they have any abilities whatsoever, beyond that of a normal player, there will be abuse, as history has shown.
I don't see how they can do it without paying people a wage. And if they don't pay them a wage, there are problems with that situation too, if the guides decide they should be paid, as has happened in the past, and was settled out of court.
Giving guides the ability to "handle any issues" sounds like giving them abilities beyond what a normal player can have. It just... doesn't work.
This is why I have consistently recommended game mechanics that limit social toxicity, rather than expecting an unrealistic level of community friendship, sweetness and light that will supposedly solve all the CSR problems that drive away paying customers.