Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

GM / Guides / CSM's?

    • 116 posts
    March 17, 2016 6:49 PM PDT

    Just curious what kind of community involvement programs might be in the pipeline?  I've seen everything in other games from guide programs (I was a guide in early EQ1), paid employee GM's, to the CSM program in EVE.  Whatever the variant I think there is something to be learned from each style but the heart of it is really ensuring community involvement and ensuring that the developers are 'hearing' the community.  I really think that programs like EVE's CSM at the very least makes a community feal like it's being heard and has representation for their concerns and issues.

    As a former EVE player I always appreciated having one of our own (a fellow wormhole dweller) that had a direct ear of the development team for problems specific to our niche community.  These CSM's were flown to the conventions on EVE"s dime and had meetings to discuss game issues directly with the developers.  It's hard to place a value on that kind of community involvement, but I think it's one of the things that EVE got right nad made me as a player feel more involved and valued than I have in any other game.

    I was interested to know if VR has a stance yet on how they intend to approach in game customer service and community involvement and community representation.

    • 9115 posts
    March 17, 2016 7:43 PM PDT

    I have a few things in mind that I will be discussing with the team but sadly it is just too early to start putting together anything like this. As the Community Manager, I can assure you that this is one of my biggest focusses and when the time is right, I will be seeking the community for help with communication and in-game functions.

    I am a big fan of a Guides program and something we called a "Player Council" or "Community Council" in VG, where some select members of the community are picked based on attitude, forum behaviour, in-game behaviour, activity and how respected they are within the community to help communicate community issues/likes/dislikes to myself and the team and we use these members to be the voice of the community and help communicate things of importance to us.

    Customer Service is a separate field that is handled internally behind the scenes but Community Management is definitely my field and one that will become too big for me to handle alone! (I hope anyway lol) and that is when we will most likely look at a Guide Program and a possible Community Council, nothing is set in stone of course and these are just my thoughts being thrown around for you to get an idea of where I'm at with it but it will become more of a focus further along in development and maybe something we could set up during mid-late testing.

    • 96 posts
    March 17, 2016 7:49 PM PDT

    I know it's to early for to much consideration let alone implentation but I really hope a "Guide Program" of sorts does happen. It not only helps the "issues" side of things but has many elements to make the game more dynamic, with events etc.

    Can't wait to get to that point b/c I am certainly 100% behind it.

    Thanks for the post OP and reply Kils.

     

    -War

    • 219 posts
    March 17, 2016 7:50 PM PDT

    Great OP Mornroc. I love the idea of a Guide Program. To me it creates a real sense of trust between player and dev.

     

     

    • 116 posts
    March 17, 2016 8:03 PM PDT

    Awesome and thanks for the answers.  It certainly seems like the VR team is pretty engaged with the community so far.  I know that becomes expontentionally harder as the scope increases so it's nice to hear how you are thinking.

    • 1468 posts
    March 17, 2016 8:28 PM PDT

    Thanks for the reply Kilsin. This is also something that I was interested to know about. It is great to hear that you have at least some plans as to how this might work out in the future. I look forward to hearing more about it when the time comes later on in the beta phase and heading towards launch.

    • 176 posts
    March 18, 2016 9:31 AM PDT

    I love these ideas too. I was never a guide in EQ or EQ2 but I had friends that did this and I always admired them. I believe the rule back then was you had to guide on a server other than your own. This did not appeal to me so much since I put 95% of my effort into my main. I like the idea of class leaders too. This is something I would definitly be interested in.

    I hope that the developers guild allows a similar amount of interection with the team. 

    • 28 posts
    March 18, 2016 9:48 AM PDT

    Huge fan of guide / community advocate programs myself. The only area that I typically have a concern about is a 'live story team'.

    I've seen this go to two extremes in the past: on one hand you have situations like EQ2 where it feels like the guides are so limited in the stories they can actually present, or the rewards they can hand out, that their appearances are pretty forgettable. On the other, I've seen scenarios where the story team is so ingrained in the overall game's roleplaying experience that it's rare to find RP that doesn't relate back to what they are doing...which is all fine and good, until the story team drops off and nobody seems to know how to RP anymore. Or if the story team decides to just meta their way through players' hard work in the interest of telling a pre-determined tale.

    That said, I always enjoyed the EQ1 story events. They were both rare and impactful, so I never quite felt like they were pointless but nor were they so prevalent that they were the core of all decent roleplay. My only complaint was, as above, it seemed like they were on a set course. I understand that from some perspectives, e.g. justifying the update to Kithicor, but I'd love to see a team that can take a more open-ended approach and inform the growth of an event more dynamically based on how players choose to engage with it.

    • 79 posts
    March 18, 2016 1:03 PM PDT

    Did an article on this (okay to link off site to it?).. crux of it is: Start now. The structure of the organization, duties, requirements, build the tools the program will need along with the game's developement. It will be of much benefit down the road and a lot smoother come launch time.

     

    I would have something in place before letting any public in, alpha testing (backers) included. It won't be completely rounded out of course, but, like alpha and beta, it will greatly help iron out kinks you may not have the resources to deal with later on.

    • 844 posts
    March 18, 2016 1:18 PM PDT

    This was done before in EQ and Vanguard and was exploited by a number of the so-called guides. They used inside information and special guide tools to give their friends and guilds special access or key details needed for encounters, enriched their own accounts and secondary accounts on other servers. This led to guides also farming rare items with inside knowledge and thus the selling of items and access for real $$.

    Any system of this nature has to be very carefully vetted.

    • 428 posts
    March 18, 2016 1:26 PM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    This was done before in EQ and Vanguard and was exploited by a number of the so-called guides. They used inside information and special guide tools to give their friends and guilds special access or key details needed for encounters, enriched their own accounts and secondary accounts on other servers. This led to guides also farming rare items with inside knowledge and thus the selling of items and access for real $$.

    Any system of this nature has to be very carefully vetted.

     

    in EQ that was 100 percent FALSE.  it had nothing to do with the guide program as guides had no real special tools.  The cheating was due to a few guilds having friends that worked as Devs/GM those Gms gave raid strats to them making it easier as well as spawning mob loot so they got really good items.  The other case was invovling the test server and allowing an entire guild to transfer off in full gear that was farmed with Gm help as well. 

    • 1095 posts
    March 18, 2016 1:32 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    ... where some select members of the community are picked based on attitude, forum behaviour, in-game behaviour

     

    Well I am out HAHA.

    • 428 posts
    March 18, 2016 1:47 PM PDT

    Aich said:

    Kilsin said:

    ... where some select members of the community are picked based on attitude, forum behaviour, in-game behaviour

     

    Well I am out HAHA.

    Hahah I saw that and was like Well there goes my chance 

    • 844 posts
    March 18, 2016 2:17 PM PDT

    Kalgore said:

    zewtastic said:

    This was done before in EQ and Vanguard and was exploited by a number of the so-called guides. They used inside information and special guide tools to give their friends and guilds special access or key details needed for encounters, enriched their own accounts and secondary accounts on other servers. This led to guides also farming rare items with inside knowledge and thus the selling of items and access for real $$.

    Any system of this nature has to be very carefully vetted.

     

    in EQ that was 100 percent FALSE.  it had nothing to do with the guide program as guides had no real special tools.  The cheating was due to a few guilds having friends that worked as Devs/GM those Gms gave raid strats to them making it easier as well as spawning mob loot so they got really good items.  The other case was invovling the test server and allowing an entire guild to transfer off in full gear that was farmed with Gm help as well. 

     

    Sorry but it IS 100% TRUE.

    I knew a guide that used information he learned from the server he was a guide on to allow him to farm items that players did not readily know about on other servers with other accounts which he then sold for $$. Enough cash that he was able to fund his roundtrip flight from Canada(east coast) to a guild gathering I organized in California over a labor day weekend. At that date the cost was around $600 for his round trip flight.

    I was really shocked at the time that someone could make so much money by selling virtual items, I remember it quite clearly.

    This was around 2002-2003 or so.

    Now I guess he could have been lying, but not sure why he would make that up.

    • 116 posts
    March 18, 2016 2:54 PM PDT

    It doesn't sound to me like you guys are really disagreeing on much...  Most of the more heinous crimes were commited by bad GM's that were giving away the farm to their friends.  I remember quite a scandal about that back in the day.  That said, yes, using information learned as a guide was certainly something that went on.  While guides didn't have much in the way of powers, they certainly could teleport themselves directly into naggy's lair, explore around for a bit and find the best places to setup, pull, etc. without having to go through what a normal raid group would.  You would avoid the whole recon and wipe phase of learning and skip right to making an attempt.  I don't personally know anyone that went so far as to deliberately develop raid strats from it, but I do know that most people who had never been to some raid areas or more difficult to crawl to dungeon spots would naturally be more than a little curious to at least take a peak and see what they were missing...

     

    On the other hand, I'm not sure how your friend would have been able to learn directly about certain drops, the frequency, etc.  It's not like guides had an item browser or were able to directly check mob drop tables.  And even if you could, how would he have known out of the thousands of mobs which one to look at and where?  At least back in 2000 the only tools we had were a ticket queue, a way to comminicate with players that had opened a ticket, and some limited abilities to teleport oursleves, other players that might be stuck, ressurect people that had died with a 100% rez, that was really about it (oh and the super spirit of the wolf on steroids times 10 movement speed buff).  It wasn't fancy.  We had to escalate a ticket to a GM if a player wanted items refunded, etc.  We couldn't do it ourselves.  We were basically just in game customer service volunteer's with very little ability to help with much beyond taking way the sting of a BS death.  We were basically just screeners for the GM's.  We screened out the trash so that the GM's only had to look at legit stuff, or at least that was the idea.

     

    Not saying your friend lied, but it sounds far fetched to me.


    This post was edited by Mornroc at March 18, 2016 2:57 PM PDT
    • 79 posts
    March 18, 2016 3:17 PM PDT

    Starts to boarder on exploit information/discussion so I'll step away from that particular conversation.

     

    People will cheat the system if they can - it's going to happen but it's not a reason to not have a program, it's a reason to start it SOONER rather than later.

     

    That way you can get strong, trust worthy leadership in place, dependable guides, clear guidelines, proper tools to monitor actions (both player and guides) and a well oiled (or at least well functioning) machine in pace with launch.


    This post was edited by Canno at March 18, 2016 3:21 PM PDT
    • 428 posts
    March 18, 2016 3:33 PM PDT

    Canno said:

    Starts to boarder on exploit information/discussion so I'll step away from that particular conversation.

     

    People will cheat the system if they can - it's going to happen but it's not a reason to not have a program, it's a reason to start it SOONER rather than later.

     

    That way you can get strong, trust worthy leadership in place, dependable guides, clear guidelines, proper tools to monitor actions (both player and guides) and a well oiled (or at least well functioning) machine in pace with launch.

    and not pull a Sony and delete all posts and mention of a big cheating event when it happens.  That doesnt help build trust at all. 

    • 9115 posts
    March 18, 2016 9:38 PM PDT

    People that abuse these systems will be dealt with harshly, it all relies on loyalty, respect and a mutual desire for a better community, so anyone caught abusing their position (with evidence - which is easy to gather for things like this) will be removed and have possible further penalties added up to permanent bans and possible legal action if it goes that deep, so I wouldn't worry too much.

    I cannot stand behaviour like that and have no issues acting quickly.

    • 176 posts
    March 19, 2016 1:44 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    People that abuse these systems will be dealt with harshly, it all relies on loyalty, respect and a mutual desire for a better community, so anyone caught abusing their position (with evidence - which is easy to gather for things like this) will be removed and have possible further penalties added up to permanent bans and possible legal action if it goes that deep, so I wouldn't worry too much.

    I cannot stand behaviour like that and have no issues acting quickly.

    I agree cheaters are the bane of all existence and should dealt with accordingly.

    • 180 posts
    March 24, 2016 3:53 AM PDT

    I was a guide for awhile.  I think a program like that would be fine but it might be good to add a more basic system also where any player can flag himself as a "Player Helper" to help newbies.

     

    This would allow newbies to find people in their area when they need help or have general gameplay questions, perhaps through some related search function.

    • 1468 posts
    March 24, 2016 4:06 AM PDT

    Thanakos said:

    I was a guide for awhile.  I think a program like that would be fine but it might be good to add a more basic system also where any player can flag himself as a "Player Helper" to help newbies.

    This would allow newbies to find people in their area when they need help or have general gameplay questions, perhaps through some related search function.

    The only problem I can see with this is that some new players might thing that "Player Helpers" are officially endorsed by VR and if they player helpers treat new players badly either just by being rude of delibrately giving them false information then it might reflect badly on VR and the rest of the Pantheon team.

    • 180 posts
    March 24, 2016 4:14 AM PDT

    Cromulent said:

    Thanakos said:

    I was a guide for awhile.  I think a program like that would be fine but it might be good to add a more basic system also where any player can flag himself as a "Player Helper" to help newbies.

    This would allow newbies to find people in their area when they need help or have general gameplay questions, perhaps through some related search function.

    The only problem I can see with this is that some new players might thing that "Player Helpers" are officially endorsed by VR and if they player helpers treat new players badly either just by being rude of delibrately giving them false information then it might reflect badly on VR and the rest of the Pantheon team.

     

    Perhaps add some way for this flag to be disabled by a GM if that person got too many complaints for repeat offenders.  I would like to think most of the community wouldn't act like this.

    • 9115 posts
    March 24, 2016 5:11 AM PDT

    Thanakos said:

    Cromulent said:

    Thanakos said:

    I was a guide for awhile.  I think a program like that would be fine but it might be good to add a more basic system also where any player can flag himself as a "Player Helper" to help newbies.

    This would allow newbies to find people in their area when they need help or have general gameplay questions, perhaps through some related search function.

    The only problem I can see with this is that some new players might thing that "Player Helpers" are officially endorsed by VR and if they player helpers treat new players badly either just by being rude of delibrately giving them false information then it might reflect badly on VR and the rest of the Pantheon team.

     

    Perhaps add some way for this flag to be disabled by a GM if that person got too many complaints for repeat offenders.  I would like to think most of the community wouldn't act like this.

    I'd like to think that many of our community members would help new players without needing a flag or title, just like they did in EQ and VG, I think the Guide system is a bit more scripted and organised in that aspect but general community members will be helping just because they are good people :)

    • 1468 posts
    March 24, 2016 5:22 AM PDT

    Thanakos said:

    Cromulent said:

    Thanakos said:

    I was a guide for awhile.  I think a program like that would be fine but it might be good to add a more basic system also where any player can flag himself as a "Player Helper" to help newbies.

    This would allow newbies to find people in their area when they need help or have general gameplay questions, perhaps through some related search function.

    The only problem I can see with this is that some new players might thing that "Player Helpers" are officially endorsed by VR and if they player helpers treat new players badly either just by being rude of delibrately giving them false information then it might reflect badly on VR and the rest of the Pantheon team.

    Perhaps add some way for this flag to be disabled by a GM if that person got too many complaints for repeat offenders.  I would like to think most of the community wouldn't act like this.

    Yeah that sounds reasonable. Even if the vast majority of the community wouldn't act like that you still have to prepare for the 0.1% who will. There is always one person out there who does things like that.

    • 180 posts
    March 24, 2016 6:56 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Thanakos said:

    Cromulent said:

    Thanakos said:

    I was a guide for awhile.  I think a program like that would be fine but it might be good to add a more basic system also where any player can flag himself as a "Player Helper" to help newbies.

    This would allow newbies to find people in their area when they need help or have general gameplay questions, perhaps through some related search function.

    The only problem I can see with this is that some new players might thing that "Player Helpers" are officially endorsed by VR and if they player helpers treat new players badly either just by being rude of delibrately giving them false information then it might reflect badly on VR and the rest of the Pantheon team.

     

    Perhaps add some way for this flag to be disabled by a GM if that person got too many complaints for repeat offenders.  I would like to think most of the community wouldn't act like this.

    I'd like to think that many of our community members would help new players without needing a flag or title, just like they did in EQ and VG, I think the Guide system is a bit more scripted and organised in that aspect but general community members will be helping just because they are good people :)

     

    Perhaps you are right but I rarely remember anyone helping me in early EQ, and in VG I didn't need it.