Are you referring to the Heroic Opportunities? Unless everyone in the group was really into those things they were just useless spam and rarely would I find a group that paid any attention to them. Such mechanics were affected greatly not only by high latency but also people hitting wrong buttons and screwing up the chain. Someone triggers and two people smach some button and the chain fails. I do not want my spells or abilities to be affected by someone elses inability to pay attention.
I've never really played an MMO were this was a thing but it does sound interesting. I gave up EQ2 pretty quickly after starting to play it (I think I hung around for a couple of weeks max). I guess it all depends on the implementation and how it is done. If it is done well then it could be incredibly fun to have extra abilities based on what other classes are doing in your group.
Ultra said:FFXI did this perfectly, there was skill chains and magic burst it made the game allot more fun id really enjoy having something like this in Pantheon.
Krixus said:I hate the chain idea, I hope I like the way they do it. Quick time events are for console FPS made in 2010.
Are they going to try it here? I don't like this mechanic either, I prefer each player is able to choose what spell/skill they want to use, not forced to use a specific one to complete a chain.
Dullahan said:I'd love a chain system where ones class' abilities temporarily enhance anothers, or even one that gives you a unique ability, but I wouldn't want it to be anything like the EQ heroic opportunity system. I just felt the implementation there was lacking.
Sounds like you need to group with a bard in EQ... haste anyone?
cragmcbeard said:Has there been any discussion on adding the group chain bonus damage into combat? It was the only memorable addition I enjoyed when EQ2 launched. I think it helps to keep players more engaged and adds a creative complexity to combat.
-cragmcbeard
The quick answer is yes.
Brad & co has said, that they want Players interested in combat and into the gameplay. And that visual ques, and situational awareness will add flavor to combat. And we already know druids can change the weather and Wizards get lighting bolts.. i think what you are asking, is the kind of depth of gameplay, we will see in certain situations in Pantheon.
Can I start the rumor that Epic's might have a chain link of their own...
While the idea sounds good on paper i disliked how it was implemented in EQ.
I am all for improved damage / support while grouped, but not via any action based chains i have to watch out for.
Systems i personally like are simple BUFFS that are unique to certain classes, or archetypes. Or debuffs,... maybe also simple "This attack does add bleeding if xy is applied", which would be a debuff system as well.
Obviously these systems should help out a group, but not be considered mandatory enough to force certain group compositions more then absolutly needed. Could infact use this to make MORE group compositions viable. Think about the following basic example: Shamans have strong slows like in EQ. For xp groups that are not optimal or not geared enough yet... that slow was mandatory. Now think about the possibilty of attacks that slow the targets attacks by half that of a shaman, IF it is bleeding for example. So a rogue can make a mob bleed while a warrior can slow bleeding targets. A Shaman would still be a win for the group, but not having one would not ruin the day if the tank is undergeared.
So basically i am thinking about possible implementations that actually HELP a group, but have more value to suboptimal group compositions then for optimal setups. Effectivly reducing the gap while not making focused classes obsolete.
Wolfsong said:Ultra said:FFXI did this perfectly, there was skill chains and magic burst it made the game allot more fun id really enjoy having something like this in Pantheon.
I was going to talk about FFXI's Skill Chains as well. In all such systems I've seen, I feel like that was the best implemented and executed. It was all timing-based, but with XI's slower combat pace, it was easy to time and coordinate it. I liked how you could start with a level 1 chain, make it a 2... be completed with a Magic Burst.. or how some jobs (Samurai, and I think later Blue Mage?) could self skill-chain.
Heroic Opportunities seemed to have the potential to take that same concept and add a lot more variety, but the execution always felt very "messy" to me.
Limit Breaks in XIV... eh. In all my time playing, I think I've seen a non-DPS limit break used exactly once.. and that was the healer using it for mass heals. Have never seen the tank LB in use. Not a fan of that system, really.
Always enjoyed doing a well-timed skillchain/magic burst combination. The timing had to be so precise that it really felt like the party was a well oiled machine when it went right. Heroic Oppotunities were overall pretty hollow in comparison and Limit Breaks in FF14 are just a joke.
To me a chain is something like the Tank has mobs attention and the rogue can backstab or the Shaman slows mob and the Healer has to Heal less. Or the Chanter Hastes Party members and the mob dies faster. If i have to hit a certain skill or button at a certain time the game doesnt gain much if you ask me. Its just a whack a mole mechanic. And will be Bothersome after awhile. Unless thers a real fun implementation of such a system i cant think of. I like the idea of combo attack to some degree but not if it has to be always timed. Like the Rogue Backstab with a tank mechanic.
I am all for dynamic, situational combat play. I just don't want to see combat where you get pigeon holed into doing the same combo attack constantly because it brings the most consistent damage. Most games are this way, you find the best, most efficient sequence and then you rotate it.
It would be so refreshing to know that you have to use situational awareness in Pantheon in order to maximize your damage or mob control.
Nah, I liked them in FFXI and hated them in EQ2. Similar to others, I do not want to be forced to cast a certain spell. Could it be done right? Yeah definitely, but I think that if your combat is stagnant enough to have these as a defining feature.... then something needs to change.
Pyye said:I am all for dynamic, situational combat play. I just don't want to see combat where you get pigeon holed into doing the same combo attack constantly because it brings the most consistent damage. Most games are this way, you find the best, most efficient sequence and then you rotate it.
It would be so refreshing to know that you have to use situational awareness in Pantheon in order to maximize your damage or mob control.
The last thing I want to be forced to do is stare at whatever portion of the screen the combo indicator graphic appears.
I think EQ did this best, believe it or not.
Good interplay between class abilities is more implicit in the combat system than it is explicit.
Examples of what I mean by "implicit" (from EQ):
This is as opposed to a more explicit system, such as:
I think the biggest argument I have against explicit ability synergy is that it allows for less nuance in the way you play, instead opting for a more rigid system.
Krixus said:I hate the chain idea, I hope I like the way they do it. Quick time events are for console FPS made in 2010.
I agree. I am not so found of chain ideas either. As it will be the game who will tell me which button to press next to optimize the effect and if I don't the damage will be less. So indirectly you are forced to press those buttons.
I also really loved the skill chain system in FFXI. I would love to see team based mechanics such as this make it into the game. Another group-based mechanic, though heavily simplified, was LOTRO's fellowship maneuvers. I bring them up only to say that for a time they added something fun to group combat in the game, but eventually the game got dumbed down to the point that no one bothered with them anymore. It's important for a system like this to be needed to complete content (not necessarily all content). I would love to see well coordinated groups that can work together have an edge.
Wolfsong said:
Limit Breaks in XIV... eh. In all my time playing, I think I've seen a non-DPS limit break used exactly once.. and that was the healer using it for mass heals. Have never seen the tank LB in use. Not a fan of that system, really.
In my experience, non-DPS limit breaks aren't THAT rare, and there are definite times when a healer limit break is necessary (the L3 full party rez can save a party from certain defeat)... but your point is a good one, FFXIV limit breaks don't add much dynamic to gameplay, because a party that is doing the fight correctly and not making mistakes never has a reason to do anything but the DPS LB.
I personally wasn't fond of XI's system, mostly due to what Liav stated above where much of it was explicit sequences of X skill into Y skill. And others have already shared my sentiment on the mess that was EQ2's heroic opportunities.
For me, logical combinations of skills work best. This can be as simple as lowering resistances before casting a spell, but I think Vanguard's weakness system can play into this a bit more. Hieromonk mentions the synergy between a druid changing the weather to stormy and a wizard casting lightningbolt in that environment doing more damage, or perhaps adding some additional stun or splash effects, than if it were cast when the weather were sunny. Perhaps going through a water volume, whether PC or NPC, adds a 'soaked' debuff that dries off after 30 seconds but for its duration prevents burning while increasing susceptibility to electrical attacks.
FFXI started to touch on this with their elemental weathers and moon phases, but I think there's a ton of room to expand this into logical play that utilizes the environment and/or interfaces between character skills . Frozen enemies more susceptible to blunt damage, backstab having a 100% crit against enemies that are already stunned, the list goes on.
FFXI skillchains were awesome, and from what most are sharing here, they have no clue how they worked. All of the depth mentioned was in FFXI, but skillchains were also part of it. In a 6 person party only 3 people generally had to participate in the skillchain, and it wasn't button spammy. You built up tp which generally in the early days meant you probably got enough tp to do about 1 skillchain per enemy. Healers, support, and tanks were free to focus on doing those roles. I don't want a game with 6 players doing the same **** they would solo while in a group like the other 5 party members aren't there.
Liav said:I think EQ did this best, believe it or not.
Good interplay between class abilities is more implicit in the combat system than it is explicit.
Examples of what I mean by "implicit" (from EQ):
- Not breaking mezzes with attacks
- Shamans using Malo to prolong the duration/success of Charm spells
- Holding your largest burst Disciplines/Abilities until you see the approprioate supplemental effects used (Shaman epic 2.0 click, etc.)
This is as opposed to a more explicit system, such as:
- Weaknesses in Vanguard - A secondary effect tied to specific abilities that will add supplemental effects to other specific abilities, either from the same or different classes
- Combos that require a specific ability/series of abilities to be used constantly to optimize performance
I think the biggest argument I have against explicit ability synergy is that it allows for less nuance in the way you play, instead opting for a more rigid system.
Agreed 100%. Implicit > Explicit. Let us find the "combos" and use them for the benefit they provide rather than because there is a UI mechanic telling us what to do. Less playing the UI, more playing Pantheon, IMO. If the devs create the environment for implicit spells to synergize, we'll figure it out what works best. We're smart players. No need to hold hands or put a box around the process for us -- it just makes the game feel more guided and artifical.