Well the hope is that this game doesn't have item tiers in the form of colored text and labeled "epic" items and such. I believe the idea is that items are relevant for a good spread of levels, and if it is anything like EQ with Kunark, the expansion certainly introduced a lot of powerful items compared to old world but the high tier old world items were still very good and sought after. You didn't just walk into the expansion and everything dropping was better than what you had, especially if you were raid geared.
The real casualty of the expansions were the low-mid tier items, which were often completely outclassed in all respects by new drops.
Daydreamer said:Regardless of what system is implemented my favorite part of early EQ was the drastic difference between casual gear and raid gear. Current new mmos always have some alternative method of acquiring nearly raid level quality gear for non raiders and if these are Epic long quests that take crazy personal time investment than go for it. If crafters can spend days or a week making a single piece of raid quality gear fine in fact I hope these exist. But if I can spend a few hours and be almost as good as someone in raid gear then what incentive is there to raid? I loved that as expansions came out in EQ the guilds on the server got to experience each expansions raids because they had to do so for progression. This sytem meant content mattered and you actually got to experience it even if not immediately if your guild was a few expansions behind. Yes this made aqcuiring new raid ready players a chore but perhaps add some way to combat this rather than making raids less important. What if in addition to regular loot from raid mobs they also dropped temporary fully powered raid level items possibly even slightly over powered. But these pieces of gear once equipped will break within 6 hrs of equipping. have these items be tradeable and guilds could stockpile these for new members to make them not so useless or if new players arnt their issue they could sell these to wealthy casuals who want a temporary jump in power to fight in some area they previously couldnt. If temporary gear is not viable then have a system for raid bolstering. for every 5 people in the raid have the ability to bolster one person whose gear is not quite up to par maybe at some small penalty to avoid abuse but bolstering might mean you only have to catch them up with a few previous raids instead of all previous raids.
Ultimately I am very excited to see the current plans for gear in pantheon.
The best items in Pantheon won't come from raiding alone, some pieces will but they are very much focused on this being a group based game with a balance of the best items coming from grouping/raiding/crafting, seemingly leaning toward grouping.
Daydreamer said:So my first hope regarding gear is that stats themselves are more indepth. I am tired of games that cop out with only a handful of stats making gear extremely linear. Oh I am an int caster so max int and im happy just seems boring. What if you had 4-5 different stats or more which affected spell casting and helped add depth to your specific character and playstyle.
Mind - primarily increases mana pool
Intelligence - primarily increases harmful power
Wisdom - primarily increase beneficial power
Perception - primarily increase crit
Focus - primarily increase crit dmg
Forthought - primarily increase cast speed
Memorization - primarily increase number of spell slots
Willpower - primarily reduce resist chance
Efficiency - primarily reduce mana requirement of spells
In addition to their primary bonus they could each offer unique sub bonuses. The other great thing about adding multiple meaningful main stats is that certain spells/abilities could be gated behind them or further enhanced by achieving certain thresholds. The challenge is the more complex the system the harder it is to keep it balanced. If the game ends up being whoever has the highest mana pool wins then suddenly mind again will be all that matters and back to square one.
So as for gear itself I am not a fan of global BIS. I want to be able to personalize my character with a number of options that are all viable. I want my gear choices to matter and I want to have to work for what I consider to be the best for my character.
Given the ability to design the gear system myself I would make it more of a combination gear/mod system with nonstandard mod slots depending on the quality of the gear. This also speaks to me on more of a roleplaying level as well as I dont expect a dragon to be carrying crazy weapons/gear unless i am actually raiding its lair and looting previous explorers. But if I run into a dragon randomly in the forest I expect it's remains to be magical relics I can use to imbue my gear with powerful properties. But some creatures such as a high level undead necromancer might legitimately have a crazy powerful magical robe Id like to wear after a good wash. In addition to a few base stats/effects the robe may have a defensive mod slot and two offensive mod slots where i could imbue it with say the dragon scale and fang and maybe a griphon talon to increase its stats in a way thats meaningful to my playstyle.
Regardless of what system is implemented my favorite part of early EQ was the drastic difference between casual gear and raid gear. Current new mmos always have some alternative method of acquiring nearly raid level quality gear for non raiders and if these are Epic long quests that take crazy personal time investment than go for it. If crafters can spend days or a week making a single piece of raid quality gear fine in fact I hope these exist. But if I can spend a few hours and be almost as good as someone in raid gear then what incentive is there to raid? I loved that as expansions came out in EQ the guilds on the server got to experience each expansions raids because they had to do so for progression. This sytem meant content mattered and you actually got to experience it even if not immediately if your guild was a few expansions behind. Yes this made aqcuiring new raid ready players a chore but perhaps add some way to combat this rather than making raids less important. What if in addition to regular loot from raid mobs they also dropped temporary fully powered raid level items possibly even slightly over powered. But these pieces of gear once equipped will break within 6 hrs of equipping. have these items be tradeable and guilds could stockpile these for new members to make them not so useless or if new players arnt their issue they could sell these to wealthy casuals who want a temporary jump in power to fight in some area they previously couldnt. If temporary gear is not viable then have a system for raid bolstering. for every 5 people in the raid have the ability to bolster one person whose gear is not quite up to par maybe at some small penalty to avoid abuse but bolstering might mean you only have to catch them up with a few previous raids instead of all previous raids.
Ultimately I am very excited to see the current plans for gear in pantheon.
I agree in principle but a month of calculating and spreadsheets will reduce this complexity to an optimal result.
You can either simplify the stat system and divert effort to improve your game in other areas, or you can spend a ton of time making a super "deep" stat system that players will emergently reduce to very simple optimization.
It seems like a waste of time to me, honestly. The developers absolutely can not balance things like Crit vs. Raw Damage. It's been tried forever and it doesn't work. Something always emerges as optimal.
In a game that isn't completely linear like Pantheon, players are likely to get different pieces of armor for each slot depending on where they chose to level up and other decisions they make. If they do it right, each class should have various stats and other boons that may help their class, build or playstyle. This ultimately eliminates any one "best in slot" build. You can calculate all day, but if you want to play a different way, or even create a balanced set of gear that doesn't min max (or even have multiple sets of gear), those spreadsheets become irrelevant.
Dullahan said:EQ had situational gear originally. Having a full set of resist gear made it possible for 20 people to kill a dragon that would take 50+ w/o said gear. Down the line it faded away as the best items had all the stats you could ever want, AND resists. Thats streamlining in action, folks.
Today I'd really like to see situational gear be a thing again. An item should never provide the best everything. Balanced, yes, but you should have to make a decision. If you want to maximize damage, you should have an item that pumps strength, attack or a particular spell/mana type etc. If you want survivability, you should focus health and resists but have to sacrifice yoru stats that may give you damage or even different abilities.
Its important that situational gear be a decision (choices = depth), and one you should have to make prior to leaving town. I don't want to see the ability to carry 5 sets of armor on you at a time, and have them on macro. It needs to be more about acquiring said gear, and then proper preparation and knowledge of when to bring them with you.
100% on board with this Dullahan... I would think the way Pantheon discusses all kinds of situational game play, it would make perfect sense to have situational gear to back this up. I cannot wait to experience what they are producing.
Agreed! I wouldn't want my gear to be too limited though ... would be very annoying to go to one dungeon, beat it, and then have to go back to town to swap out one situational set for another before proceeding to the next dungeon. I hope to be able to carry at least a few sets of armor at max level if situational gear is going to be that important. I don't want to see a zone that is ALL about cold resist and then another zone that is ALL about disease resist. I would like to see areas where things get mixed up and being able to switch up your gear between fights is important. If a zone has nothing but fire damage then you load up on classes that give fire resist. I have seen that before ... someone needs a quest update in the fire zone but their class doesen't offer the buffs that other classes do and thus they are less desirable and have a hard time finding a group. Guild groups will usually save the day but still ... I definitely want to see resistance fluctuation.
Dullahan said:In a game that isn't completely linear like Pantheon, players are likely to get different pieces of armor for each slot depending on where they chose to level up and other decisions they make. If they do it right, each class should have various stats and other boons that may help their class, build or playstyle. This ultimately eliminates any one "best in slot" build. You can calculate all day, but if you want to play a different way, or even create a balanced set of gear that doesn't min max (or even have multiple sets of gear), those spreadsheets become irrelevant.
If you want to play in a suboptimal way, that's beside the point of my post. My post was talking about the relationship between stats and the meta, and how it's practically impossible to balance a large amount of stats in a way that obvious optimal gameplay doesn't emerge. The devs are welcome to try.
Even with situational gear and/or multiple gear sets, it doesn't change the meta. If you establish a goal, an optimal way to achieve that goal will appear. If that means having 6 different gear sets to swap out situationally, it's still meta, and it still doesn't matter if the gear sets have one or twelve stats each. At the end of the day, you can reduce these stats to a simple formula that is practically equivalent to geascore, and that information will be made widely available.
It's an unfortunate shortcoming of a game based on numbers. Well, realistically all games are built on numbers, but with various degrees of abstraction.
In summary, the quantity of individual stats is completely arbitrary because they can all be optimized with grade school math and a little bit of time.
Edit: I'm sorry if my posts come off as adversarial. I get very enthusiastic on topics like this to a fault.
Liav said:Dullahan said:In a game that isn't completely linear like Pantheon, players are likely to get different pieces of armor for each slot depending on where they chose to level up and other decisions they make. If they do it right, each class should have various stats and other boons that may help their class, build or playstyle. This ultimately eliminates any one "best in slot" build. You can calculate all day, but if you want to play a different way, or even create a balanced set of gear that doesn't min max (or even have multiple sets of gear), those spreadsheets become irrelevant.
If you want to play in a suboptimal way, that's beside the point of my post. My post was talking about the relationship between stats and the meta, and how it's practically impossible to balance a large amount of stats in a way that obvious optimal gameplay doesn't emerge. The devs are welcome to try.
Even with situational gear and/or multiple gear sets, it doesn't change the meta. If you establish a goal, an optimal way to achieve that goal will appear. If that means having 6 different gear sets to swap out situationally, it's still meta, and it still doesn't matter if the gear sets have one or twelve stats each. At the end of the day, you can reduce these stats to a simple formula that is practically equivalent to geascore, and that information will be made widely available.
It's an unfortunate shortcoming of a game based on numbers. Well, realistically all games are built on numbers, but with various degrees of abstraction.
In summary, the quantity of individual stats is completely arbitrary because they can all be optimized with grade school math and a little bit of time.
Edit: I'm sorry if my posts come off as adversarial. I get very enthusiastic on topics like this to a fault.
Lol @ suboptimal. You missed the entire point. That being, if class and item design promotes varied builds, and content requires varied builds, having a full set of gear that boosts X may not still be optimal in another area where Y is more necessary. Thus, best in slot as we know it would not exist.
I didn't miss the point.
The idea of "if you want to play a different way", which is a direct quote from the post I initially replied to, is contrary to optimal play unless it coincides with optimal play.
Let me try to distill this argument a bit.
1. You're going to fight a mob that does ice damage, and also crits a lot.
2. You have three different pieces of gear, one reduces ice damage, one reduces crit damage, one reduces both ice damage AND crit damage.
3. Practically, the developers will not be able to balance these three pieces of gear so that each piece is equally effective for the situation at hand.
As a result of these 3 points, these are the potential results:
A. The gear is unbalanced (likely scenario) in such a way that there is an optimal piece.
B. The gear is balanced (unlikely scenario) in such a way that it's irrelevant which piece you choose and the diversity is illusory at best.
I think you're getting the wrong message from my post, though.
I'm not necessarily talking about best in slot. It doesn't matter if you have one or six pairs of gloves that you swap out depending on the situation. The crux of my argument is that the quantity of stats on a piece of gear is largely irrelevant. People who pay attention will be able to easily determine what's best. People who don't will be disproportionately punished by a piece of gear that has 15 stats on it as opposed to something simpler.
@Liav
yup, there will always be a best item for each specific situation, there's no way around it, let's just hope VR creates enough different items and situations to avoid the "bis for all situation items" becoming common, although I want 1 or 2 epics from long quest lines that are BIS for almost everything, it would be silly if the item you worked hours and hours for is not the best option for almost all situations. As for the "15 stats" on a single item piece, hope that's not in the game, it's just confusing and becomes a pain in the ass or check the stat priority everytime you switch gear pieces, I hope there are loads of different stats, but keep the item with 2-4 of those stats at most.
There's a big difference between cut and dry best in slot as it exists in most mmos today, and an "optimal" set providing the best balance, but not necessarily best in all situations. That means numerous sets of gear would be necessary to really achieve best and slot, and a lot of decisions players will make to find the balance that best suits them.
Don't know how many people played EQ, but unlike p99 where you have years to collect all the best items, not even the most hardcore players achieved best in slot. You might have had those 5 items off Vulak on your wishlist, but that was pretty much the closest you came. Now create more situational gear and varied content, and it becomes a complete impossibility.
That would eliminate best in slot as we know it.
I think it's important to break down the reasons behind why it was so challenging to achieve best in slot in EQ.
There are probably even more reasons that I can't think of off the top of my head.
Either way, we're splitting hairs more than anything else. In a game with an abundance of situational gear, the concept of best in slot is a non sequitur. I prefer to use the all-encompassing term "meta". My point, as I mentioned before, is that the individual quantity of stats is irrelevant. If you have one stat called "Agility" that has 4 separate ways it affects your character's performance, or you instead have the four separate explicitly applied to the gear, the end result is the same. It only really works when players are ignorant. Once you do the math, it doesn't matter if you have one or one hundred individual stats, the meta will be found and it will be adhered to by those fortunate enough to have the knowledge.
That's all I'm trying to say.
I agree that situational gear is an improvement over the "dry best in slot" meta. However, I believe that having stats on gear in the first place is contrived gameplay. I believe EQNext had some great ideas to diverge from this path, but I also believe that it was way too early and way too ambitious of a project. Add copious amounts of incompetence to the mix and you have development hell.
Don't take what I'm saying here too seriously. Pantheon isn't that kind of game and I'm at peace with that.
Edit: WRU new forums? So tired of my bullet points not working.
When it comes to the player's progression in Pantheon, my concern is really more about there being variety and choices. I don't think the major challenge or draw has ever been figuring out how to equip your character or how to succeed. What items and abilities you need to get the job done has seldom been a mystery for long. Even in 1999 we had sites that compiled info on every zone, mob and item.
The problem is that the road to achievement has become linear, monotonous, and without the decisions that really make the journey feel like your own. Instead of achieving "best in slot" by going through the exact same motions, killing the exact same mobs, completing the exact same quests as every player of your class that came before you, there must be forks in the road. Whether that's literally paths in the world leading to different regions, ways to specialize your character, or even choosing another way of playing the game other than adventuring, we need options. When an mmo is built in such a way that it brings many people together playing in different ways or different roles, yet who all need each other and cannot succeed on their own, that is what brings the world to life.
Hey, at least we've found some common ground. I can't really object to any of that, as it echoes my own sentiments.
More options is always better. I'm the type of person who can never be satisfied 100%, however, so I still have trouble not acknowledging the very finite constraints. Even so, Pantheon is a video game and I can't reasonably expect it to be as open ended is real life. Not yet, anyway.
Despite the implicit imperfections of modern video games I'm sure Pantheon will deliver a very enjoyable experience. The more options we have, the more divorced Pantheon becomes from the extremely linear ways of most modern games. That can't possibly be a bad thing.
There could be "undocumented" features of the game that may not be able to be discerened from the meta. For example (example only), a modifier may be attached to gear that is dependent on how long the gear has been worn. Thus, for those that swap regularly there would be nothing noticeable. It would only be noticeable between two players and even at that there is a high probability that the source of differentiation would be sought by exploring the information at hand in the traditional spreadsheet manner. The meta could, of course, contain that "undocumented" data component. But the meaning, usage, origin, and discernment of that "data" would be difficult and perhaps just unknown.
Overall I think I agree with Dullahan on this
Like said ,we've quickly seen it all if items have everything you could want and hope for to survive
Thinking about progression,of all the MMOs I've played,Florensia had one very profound feature;
Character level on land and sea were separated;you could be a max level character on land,still a level 1 in a sea environment.
Another important question to ask is;what shapes and defines our character.
Gear progression has always been a reoccurrent term and it tells a lot about what they have allowed to define our character's progression.
Personally I believe the focus on gear alone for progression is part of why these games fail to grab attention for a long time,why these online worlds feel bland no matter how gorgeous
the graphics are.
The only thing the character has to better itself is the gear,there is no reason to have a connection to the world.
Many may not realize it ,but progression for a part defines what is important to players.Because gear has been the only driving factor in progression ,the term gearprogression has become
discussed in great lengths over the years;thus progression defines what has importance to players.
Think about why we see all the dungeon skipping;to get to the loots to improve themselves.Progression solely linked to gear is bad I believe
The surroundings in which we play has no impact on our progression,the shaping of our character.While it could have impact.
That would mean environment could have an impact on our progression,which in turn would mean that environment would matter to players.
Think about how humans used to be more hairy to survive in the cold and harsh conditions.
Situational gear is a step in the right direction I believe as it means we have to consider the environment and the situation we are in.Which means we'd be moving to a kind of character progression which is more meaningful
and valuable to the overal game experience and the players themselves.
At the same time a clear distinction has to be made between what provides the challenges that would make the overall experience better
and what would be long and tiresome management:A wardrobe system with all you have gathered could keep it manageable as I suggested elsewhere
it was interesting to hear the view of a dev on progression in a trailer (a trailer which I won't post because it would be advertisement for another game but his message about progression is an important one I think)
"Character progression doesn't just mean getting better,getting more powerful
Character progression means having new options.More things that I can do.More strategies that I can employ"
I Think he pretty much nails it.
Why can't others see that I wondered
why do so many think progression should only mean a gain in power?
EQ2 currently has open raids on certain mobs in different zones and you participate you're rewarded with something. I'm not a fan. Although I do think the population enjoys the sense of community in doing these things the frequency of it makes it not as much fun as if it were a rarer thing. Once a month or so.
Fluffy said:it was interesting to hear the view of a dev on progression in a trailer (a trailer which I won't post because it would be advertisement for another game but his message about progression is an important one I think)
"Character progression doesn't just mean getting better,getting more powerful
Character progression means having new options.More things that I can do.More strategies that I can employ"
I Think he pretty much nails it.
Why can't others see that I wondered
why do so many think progression should only mean a gain in power?
Not sure I follow that quote. What would they be talking about that is any different than how things currently are? The wording seems misleading to be deeper than it is, I could be wrong.
Character progression - the more you level your class the wider the range of abilities you have access to, aka you have new options, more things you can do, more strategies you can employ. The more you level up the higher you can level your crafting profession giving you more things you can do/options. The more you level your character the more areas of the world you can explore in relative safety, the more factions you can encounter and potentially work on diplomacy with. Leveling isn't just power progression and by the time you are max, character progression opening new avenues tends to be diminished because you have generally already opened the door for most all other character options, strategies, things you can do.
*practices being a necromancer on this thread*
I am interested to see how the horizontal progression pans out. to me this means: Better, not bigger.
I've been binge watching Game of thrones and I compare it to Arnya catching pigeons in the street to eat. Initially she has to chase and catch, but then when she is proficient, she just walks up and lops off the head of the pidgeon with her sword with a flick of her wrist.
Initially I thought it would be similar to remaining the same level, or not having a level, but getting better at skills. I wonde rif this would make gear scaling easier as they would not be on a constantly upward progression.
I have seen "situational gear" work, before. My first experience was back in EQOA. There was a specific set of gear I would use in the Isle of Dread zone. There was another I would use in Solusek's Eye. But that was just the tip of the ice-berg ... having a set of gear that is "optimal" for an entire zone is pretty shallow. Things got way more interesting when specific encounters had their own demands ... encounters like Siliskor. The more resistances, the more acclimation types, the more beneficial clickies or "set bonuses" the better. That's how you expand progression to be way more meaningful ... I hate the idea of BiS. I remember raiding for years and years in EQ2 and throwing away so much loot. I want there to be a "need" for me to collect a really strong piercing, slashing, and crushing weapon. I don't want a one size fits all solution available to me. I think there should be plenty of encounters in the game that are downright impossible without the right set-up. Bringing specific classes that offer resistance buffs or whatever only goes so far.