From the Game Tenets:
A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.
So what does this mean from a game play standpoint?
Do you have starting character statistics that impact your power or does gear have so many statistics that the difference is marginal?
Do you gain your gear over months or years with few key items spread out lasting months at a time or does every peice of gear get replaced when a content expansion comes out?
Are there gear choices based on secondary statistics that add flavor or are the gear choices clear and the differentiation come from the living codex?
How do you advance your character after you reach maximum level? Is it gear? Alternative Advancement? Factions? Stat customization?
Having played and seen the various MMO options there are differences and they impact the game in unique ways.
Raiding Guilds:
In the original everquest there were tiers of raids that existed and while you had a viable option to replace/upgrade your gear through the raid tiers/expansions the fact remained that gearing up a new player was much harder unless he/she could be carried by the raid team. It meant something when the raid force had to take a step down in content tiers to regear new recruits to continue to progress. Some guilds would do community events to invite friends and family and non raiders both as a recruiting tool/trial run/etc but to serve both purposes.
Games like WoW on the other hand basically wipes the slate clean every leveling expansion and you can take a break on expansion and have a chance to be a top guild on your server the next having more to do with your skill and organization then the carried over gear you were lucky enough to get dropped in previous raids.
Developer Experiments:
When the slate gets wiped clean every expansion that ability to drastically change core class identities can occur causing people to feel obligated to play alternative characters then the one they have been building and grooming for years. What they loved about their origional character and class dynamic role is now different or the playstyle has been completely changed. This just leads to the churn of players leaving and coming back to games.
Or does the experiments come from new spells/gear/tweaks that are only part of that expansion? The limited basis can be used to evaluate if the abilities/skills/new tools should carry forward? Nerfing when it is overpowered is always an option, but you retain the ability to just not carry it forward if it didn't make sense in hindsight.
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I really don't think there is a definitive right or wrong way to do this as long as there is some key consistency, but I miss the days of when you always had something to do in the game even if you reached maximum level and a benefit of playing your character that everyone socially knows you for.
What are other people's thought?
I really cannot say much on how EQ End Game was but in EQ2 i played until 2014. But the last 4 Years of that time was only valued on the friends i gained over the years. I was just fed up after reaching max level and grinding through the quests, raids etc and knowing an expansion is on its way and therefore i will have to do it all again and again and again didnt appeal to me anymore. don`t get me wrong expansions , level rise etc are all great.
But does it have to be rinse and repeat ? Honestly in this day and age ? Alternatives should be the answer here. Why do i now have to go and do it all over just so i get the new gear, weapons, spells that give me a % boost.
We should try and find alternatives to this system of MAXèd that is anything apart from rince and repeat. Why do we have to raise stats over and over set us on optional paths to pursue you are a cleric become a master cleric and go on a long journey to archive the true wisdoms of a cleric. After months away i come back wise and grey haird and have new powers that weren`t there before.
I just hope i aint stepping on alot of toes here.
I enjoy the end game EQ1 had more than any other game. Open raids without cap, bring as many as you like (tho I disliked zergs, I enjoyed the option people had to do so), the gearing etc etc etc. I would however like to see more involved question for items that ore folks could do sans guild until the last step or so when it could possibly be finished with a public raid. More things like the Velious ring and shawl quests (loved those).
I'd also be in favor of perhaps skipping an expansion that focuses just raids for character dev and channels you into developing in some other way or sphere. Crafting, Diplo, Storyline quest etc.
Amsai said: I would like something a bit closer to FFXI which could fit since Pantheon is making an emphasis on situational gear progression. Thr level cap was 75 for years and all end game content had gear that was more or less the same (for lack of a better word) tier. The difference was concentrating on different gear for specific situations so this chest piece might be the best for class x for y situation but this other chest piece might be better for the same class in z situation etc etc. Though FFXI might have been better with more itemization. So perhaps some cross between EQ and FXIs approach to gear progression with a very shallow curve?
Yeah that sounds cool. I like the idea of having lots of different equipment to choose from. Having every player of a certain class wearing exactly the same gear gets boring really fast and doesn't allow for differing play styles which is what I think Pantheon should be concentrating. There should be more than one way to play an enchanter well for instance and each different way should have different gear associated with it.
Cromulent said:Amsai said: I would like something a bit closer to FFXI which could fit since Pantheon is making an emphasis on situational gear progression. Thr level cap was 75 for years and all end game content had gear that was more or less the same (for lack of a better word) tier. The difference was concentrating on different gear for specific situations so this chest piece might be the best for class x for y situation but this other chest piece might be better for the same class in z situation etc etc. Though FFXI might have been better with more itemization. So perhaps some cross between EQ and FXIs approach to gear progression with a very shallow curve?Yeah that sounds cool. I like the idea of having lots of different equipment to choose from. Having every player of a certain class wearing exactly the same gear gets boring really fast and doesn't allow for differing play styles which is what I think Pantheon should be concentrating. There should be more than one way to play an enchanter well for instance and each different way should have different gear associated with it.
I always liked having to hunt for different gear sets. I spent so much time in EQ2 looking for a super rare cloak from an instance it wasnt funny. But as a Main tank I had sets of gear that were4 dependent on the mob. Antifear gear for a mob that would almost perma fear you. I had max fire resists for some heavy duty fire damage mobs. I ended up having 4 or 5 different sets and dozens of jewerly slots worth of stuff. I never got all the pieces I planned on though and that helped me enjoy the game longer.
I loved it when EQ2 added the adornment system. You could transmute common or fabled items into special crafting pieces and add it to armor or weapons. One adorment might add +10 Str another might add 1% crit chance there was a lot of different ones.
Cromulent said:I loved it when EQ2 added the adornment system. You could transmute common or fabled items into special crafting pieces and add it to armor or weapons. One adorment might add +10 Str another might add 1% crit chance there was a lot of different ones.
Yeah this system was one of the better systems added late in the game that turned out alright. This was a good system that has/had much potential to be persued and advanced
One of the major things I saw in FFXI that I did not like and did NOT want to see is part of the situational gear thing. You literally had a set of gear for casting cure, a set of gear for casting buffs, a set of gear for sitting down, a set of gear for standing up, an idle set.. etc etc, it was completely overboard.
I'm not against having situational gear, like resist sets and the like, but I don't want to have to macro in different sets of gear just to cast certain spells because it amps them, that's busy work and retarded.
As long as the situational gear is designed to be worn for fights and not just used to bolster buffs or help you regenerate more mana while resting, then I'm good.
Rallyd said:
I'm not against having situational gear, like resist sets and the like, but I don't want to have to macro in different sets of gear just to cast certain spells because it amps them, that's busy work and retarded.
Very much on board with this. I dont mind keeping a set of resist gear on me but the one thing that makes me go "hrrrmmmm" is when the devs mention gear being highly situational in Pantheon. Please dont go overboard with it!
EQ had situational gear originally. Having a full set of resist gear made it possible for 20 people to kill a dragon that would take 50+ w/o said gear. Down the line it faded away as the best items had all the stats you could ever want, AND resists. Thats streamlining in action, folks.
Today I'd really like to see situational gear be a thing again. An item should never provide the best everything. Balanced, yes, but you should have to make a decision. If you want to maximize damage, you should have an item that pumps strength, attack or a particular spell/mana type etc. If you want survivability, you should focus health and resists but have to sacrifice yoru stats that may give you damage or even different abilities.
Its important that situational gear be a decision (choices = depth), and one you should have to make prior to leaving town. I don't want to see the ability to carry 5 sets of armor on you at a time, and have them on macro. It needs to be more about acquiring said gear, and then proper preparation and knowledge of when to bring them with you.
Garmr said:I enjoy the end game EQ1 had more than any other game. Open raids without cap, bring as many as you like (tho I disliked zergs, I enjoyed the option people had to do so), the gearing etc etc etc. I would however like to see more involved question for items that ore folks could do sans guild until the last step or so when it could possibly be finished with a public raid. More things like the Velious ring and shawl quests (loved those).
I'd also be in favor of perhaps skipping an expansion that focuses just raids for character dev and channels you into developing in some other way or sphere. Crafting, Diplo, Storyline quest etc.
I respect and uderstand your view but TBH the one of the top 4 reasons I left EQ for WoW at launch was raiding that required 75 people it just got beyond insane and rediculous to me. One of the things I love about raiding and group play is the importance of every member and the feeling of importance and value to the group. At 75 people meh, go pee if you were not in the CH rotation.
NOW, I ASSUME, raid encounters will be MORE then find wall, stand against, cast CH chain win.... I have a sneaky suspicion it will be much more in depth these days. So to me character progression is this..
1- Every level is an opportunity to learn and master your class more and more- I remember as a shaman and being my first mmo ever in EQ at lvl 40 finding out the importance of slow (turgers insects) I had NO IDEA it was important but once I did I took a giant step forward in experimenting and learning spells and abilities. EVERY level should matter!!! Today's MMO's are about how fast can I max lvl so I can start the real game and so many don't learn their class until well into progression content.
2- GEAR MATTERS- as I develop my character I don't want my gear to only have value for 30 seconds if I group with people, fight tough mobs, put in time and effort my gear better have value and purpse.
3- Raids matter- Part of developing and progressing my character should be the value of low lvl raids, where unique items and gear and even xp bonuses exist to reward you for putting a raid together to accomplish the goals of said raid. Dungeon crawls are very viable here.
4- Roles matter- in a day and age where everyone has one of everything we have got to get back to x,y,z ARE just that not xyz,xyz,xyz... at the same time developers need to be careful to not put in such stingent group content that only a specific boss or mini boss can be done with you have specific class's.
Just some random thoughts.
Xanier
Hmm wow had just as many players to raid with? cant agree with that. We had low lvl progression, rinse and repeat quests i hope we dont get that easy.
Group boss mobs, are just that 1 group. Raids being above 25 members still would have to exist.
Otherwise we have a dummed down version of wow again. I am no way interested in wow type game play again. I have already spent much of my time waisted away playing easy mmo's
Social guilds, groups are very important.
Crazzie said:Hmm wow had just as many players to raid with? cant agree with that. We had low lvl progression, rinse and repeat quests i hope we dont get that easy.
Group boss mobs, are just that 1 group. Raids being above 25 members still would have to exist.
Otherwise we have a dummed down version of wow again. I am no way interested in wow type game play again. I have already spent much of my time waisted away playing easy mmo's
Social guilds, groups are very important.
I like the 24 man raid assuming we have groups of 6 thats 4 groups manageable and still every class is needed.
I prefer gear not to matter and character skill to matter. As my character develops he should become more powerful due to his own skill not based on what he is wearing so much.
I don't mind having added benefits from gear, but I do not like a constant gear grind. I got enough of that in WoW. I just want to work my character and make him powerful because of experience and knowledge. A slow development and growth of a character is what keeps a game fresh and fun for me.
Dullahan said:EQ had situational gear originally. Having a full set of resist gear made it possible for 20 people to kill a dragon that would take 50+ w/o said gear. Down the line it faded away as the best items had all the stats you could ever want, AND resists. Thats streamlining in action, folks.
Today I'd really like to see situational gear be a thing again. An item should never provide the best everything. Balanced, yes, but you should have to make a decision. If you want to maximize damage, you should have an item that pumps strength, attack or a particular spell/mana type etc. If you want survivability, you should focus health and resists but have to sacrifice yoru stats that may give you damage or even different abilities.
Its important that situational gear be a decision (choices = depth), and one you should have to make prior to leaving town. I don't want to see the ability to carry 5 sets of armor on you at a time, and have them on macro. It needs to be more about acquiring said gear, and then proper preparation and knowledge of when to bring them with you.
I think they need to add something in where once you start combat your gear is locked and can't be switched honestly. Carry as many sets as you want but you wont be able to change them mid fight.
I agree with everything else about gear. there needs to be tradeoffs on gear some need to fit certain fights and some fit others
Baldrith said:I prefer gear not to matter and character skill to matter. As my character develops he should become more powerful due to his own skill not based on what he is wearing so much.
I don't mind having added benefits from gear, but I do not like a constant gear grind. I got enough of that in WoW. I just want to work my character and make him powerful because of experience and knowledge. A slow development and growth of a character is what keeps a game fresh and fun for me.
Couple things strike me...
1- I would love for gear to not matter as much as skill. It would be like going to college, graduating and it actually being the ideal ... but like graduating from college and getting out in the real work force you realize you just don't have the ideal... This would only be possible in a group centric game if EVERYONE was on top lvl skill.. but since that's not what is the gameplay would suffer. The buffer to less skilled players is gear..... I wish it didn't need to be but it is.
2- I think we have to remember this game will be more challenging then WoW so I think you can expect more gear grind then WoW. If in this game gear matter more at ALL level your going to continue the upgrade as long as the upgrade is there. The GOOD difference is that levels will take longer to achieve so the VALUE of gear will be much more felt then... get piece...2 days later replace piece.... 3 days later replace 2 days old piece then hit the wall and not get any for months. I think WoW feel so gear grindy now because it's so easy to get all type of high end gear and once you have BiS your done and all that work feels wasted cause your now stuck with that for 6 to 8 months. IMHO
3- "A slow development and growth of a character is what keeps a game fresh and fun for me." Totally agree and think when we talk Pantheon this is what we are talking about. YEA!!!
xanier
X
See, http://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/game_features/
Progengy System.
I think you will go back down to level 1 or something with a small stat boost appled to your base stats and level up again maybe choosing a new race/class combo.
Xanier said:
2- GEAR MATTERS- as I develop my character I don't want my gear to only have value for 30 seconds if I group with people, fight tough mobs, put in time and effort my gear better have value and purpse.
Xanier
I could almost tell you every peice of gear on my paladin from EQ when I quit, and the stories behind many of those peices. But I can not name one peice of equipment I EVER looted in WoW. :P
Fulton said:Xanier said:
2- GEAR MATTERS- as I develop my character I don't want my gear to only have value for 30 seconds if I group with people, fight tough mobs, put in time and effort my gear better have value and purpse.
Xanier
I could almost tell you every peice of gear on my paladin from EQ when I quit, and the stories behind many of those peices. But I can not name one peice of equipment I EVER looted in WoW. :P
I still remember my Cloak from castle mistmoore in EQ2 and killing that contested bastard and burning so much DKP to gank that cloak from Melee classes. Oh my paladin was so happy
What I don’t want to see is what they have done in GW2. Everyone has the same gear and uses the same builds and the Zerg reigns supreme. WoW pretty much has the same concept. Come to think of it most of the current MMO's have that.
The question now is what can we as a community do about it? (motivational comment)
Xanier Posted:
NOW, I ASSUME, raid encounters will be MORE then find wall, stand against, cast CH chain win.... I have a sneaky suspicion it will be much more in depth these days. So to me character progression is this..
1- Every level is an opportunity to learn and master your class more and more- I remember as a shaman and being my first mmo ever in EQ at lvl 40 finding out the importance of slow (turgers insects) I had NO IDEA it was important but once I did I took a giant step forward in experimenting and learning spells and abilities. EVERY level should matter!!! Today's MMO's are about how fast can I max lvl so I can start the real game and so many don't learn their class until well into progression content.
2- GEAR MATTERS- as I develop my character I don't want my gear to only have value for 30 seconds if I group with people, fight tough mobs, put in time and effort my gear better have value and purpose.
3- Raids matter- Part of developing and progressing my character should be the value of low lvl raids, where unique items and gear and even xp bonuses exist to reward you for putting a raid together to accomplish the goals of said raid. Dungeon crawls are very viable here.
4- Roles matter- in a day and age where everyone has one of everything we have got to get back to x,y,z ARE just that not xyz,xyz,xyz... at the same time developers need to be careful to not put in such stringent group content that only a specific boss or mini boss can be done with you have specific class's.
Great points!
Ox
Kalgore said:Dullahan said:EQ had situational gear originally. Having a full set of resist gear made it possible for 20 people to kill a dragon that would take 50+ w/o said gear. Down the line it faded away as the best items had all the stats you could ever want, AND resists. Thats streamlining in action, folks.
Today I'd really like to see situational gear be a thing again. An item should never provide the best everything. Balanced, yes, but you should have to make a decision. If you want to maximize damage, you should have an item that pumps strength, attack or a particular spell/mana type etc. If you want survivability, you should focus health and resists but have to sacrifice yoru stats that may give you damage or even different abilities.
Its important that situational gear be a decision (choices = depth), and one you should have to make prior to leaving town. I don't want to see the ability to carry 5 sets of armor on you at a time, and have them on macro. It needs to be more about acquiring said gear, and then proper preparation and knowledge of when to bring them with you.
I think they need to add something in where once you start combat your gear is locked and can't be switched honestly. Carry as many sets as you want but you wont be able to change them mid fight.
I agree with everything else about gear. there needs to be tradeoffs on gear some need to fit certain fights and some fit others
Aye, but a better mechanic that is more freeform, would be to place a penalty on changing your gear while in combat.. Perhaps a timer on each piece of equipment, or stat reduction placed on a timer, etc. Instead of outright locking out the changing of equipment... no restriction on the Char, just a mechanic to protect those who are situational aware.
Hieromonk said:Kalgore said:Dullahan said:EQ had situational gear originally. Having a full set of resist gear made it possible for 20 people to kill a dragon that would take 50+ w/o said gear. Down the line it faded away as the best items had all the stats you could ever want, AND resists. Thats streamlining in action, folks.
Today I'd really like to see situational gear be a thing again. An item should never provide the best everything. Balanced, yes, but you should have to make a decision. If you want to maximize damage, you should have an item that pumps strength, attack or a particular spell/mana type etc. If you want survivability, you should focus health and resists but have to sacrifice yoru stats that may give you damage or even different abilities.
Its important that situational gear be a decision (choices = depth), and one you should have to make prior to leaving town. I don't want to see the ability to carry 5 sets of armor on you at a time, and have them on macro. It needs to be more about acquiring said gear, and then proper preparation and knowledge of when to bring them with you.
I think they need to add something in where once you start combat your gear is locked and can't be switched honestly. Carry as many sets as you want but you wont be able to change them mid fight.
I agree with everything else about gear. there needs to be tradeoffs on gear some need to fit certain fights and some fit others
Aye, but a better mechanic that is more freeform, would be to place a penalty on changing your gear while in combat.. Perhaps a timer on each piece of equipment, or stat reduction placed on a timer, etc. Instead of outright locking out the changing of equipment... no restriction on the Char, just a mechanic to protect those who are situational aware.
I know EQ2 added the lockout after a raid item was looted it was a jewerly piece with a clicky activate ability it added a large amount of Mana to the caster so a lot of people would put it on cast it take it off and repeat as soon as it was ready. I wouldnt mind something other then a lockout but I do feel once you pull that mob you should be ready to fight it with the gear you have on not with gear that might be in your bag.
Maybe a good but harsh one would be it takes x amount of seconds for that piece to become active
Aye.. form follows reality. If someone wants to start changing out armor during battle.. be prepared to have a penalty. Whether that is a timer, or stat redux, or a combination of subtle mechanic that simulate a person yndressing and re-equiping during battle, etc.
Just no locks.. it is too artificial.