I'll start.
One of my biggest gripes with the modern MMO is the lack of interaction between players EVEN when grouped. So, NO dungeon finders, NO LFG group builders other than /lfg, absolutly NO linear dungeons, especially when when mobs die, they stay dead. Dungeon treadmills for tokens, for armor sets etc are the worst. This is the scenario I will never tolerate in a game again:
Dungeon finder places me in group
Ports me to dungeon when group fills with game prescribed roles...
MAYBE a "hi" usually just a "rdy?" from other members
Run full tilt with literally zero discussion going on (I prefer typing to voip but can deal) and no chance to even if they wanted to because YOU DONT STOP moving.
Kill the mobs and bosses, everyone "needs" the item rolls, again no discussion
Kill final boss
Get ported out by game
Group splits without a word so everyone can que for the next treadmill.
Now, Im a pretty affafable guy and I dont use this word alot in my life but I HATE this about the modern game and is why I no longer play them.
Please, do NOT have the above in your game VR.
So, what about you, what do you not want to see?
Garmr said:I'll start.
One of my biggest gripes with the modern MMO is the lack of interaction between players EVEN when grouped. So, NO dungeon finders, NO LFG group builders other than /lfg, absolutly NO linear dungeons, especially when when mobs die, they stay dead. Dungeon treadmills for tokens, for armor sets etc are the worst. This is the scenario I will never tolerate in a game again:
Dungeon finder places me in group Agree
Ports me to dungeon when group fills with game prescribed roles... Agree
MAYBE a "hi" usually just a "rdy?" from other members Disagree If I dont want to talk to some random strangers then so be it. It shouldnt really matter as long as they group succeeds
Run full tilt with literally zero discussion going on (I prefer typing to voip but can deal) and no chance to even if they wanted to because While not an issue with most PUG but a guild group might be able to fly througha zone pulling one mob after another clearing it in record time. I remember some dungeons in EQ that would take a PUG 30 or 40 minutes and we would do it in 5 sometimes
Kill the mobs and bosses, everyone "needs" the item rolls, again no discussion Going to be honest if im in a PUG and I need something I'm not going to discuss it I will be rolling on it. I don't owe some random person loot just because he thinks they deserve it more. (Big issue with hybrid classes as they might have 4 or 5 builds
Kill final boss
Get ported out by game
Group splits without a word so everyone can que for the next treadmill. Again There are days when people don't want to talk to others some sort of sitdown sing along get to know each other therapy session shouldnt be required to play the game.
Now, Im a pretty affafable guy and I dont use this word alot in my life but I HATE this about the modern game and is why I no longer play them.
Please, do NOT have the above in your game VR.
So, what about you, what do you not want to see?
I want to see Pantheon bring back skill in your class not this smash your face into the keyboard and you win a prize mentality.
Make the content meaningful along with death travel and crafting.
While its an MMO I DO not want to be forced to socialize if I dont feel like it.
Make Raiding hard and meaningful and do not dumb done raid zones because some people can't play there class.
Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
I wil agree to this. While I wish for some old school elements and stuff. Way to many people are demanding things that make no real impact on how they could play the game but could end up costing a lot of subscriptions due to how annoying it is. Many people needs to realize that some things need to be changed for convience that used to not exist just to give this game a chance instead of stonewalling and demnding things like 3 hour on foot travel to zones and corpse decay and equipment that gets destoryed and lost on death.
I have played Ultima, EQ, EQ2, EVE, even tried WOW not one of these games was perfect but Pantheon and borrow ideas from all of them to make an amazing MMORPG
I almost hate to weigh in on this thread as it seems to be diverging from the OP's intent to trashing the folks who are supporting the idea of a hard core old school MMO.
Here's what I don't want to see:
Game mechanics that trivialize the size of the world.
No clicky portal stones. If you need to travel far, portal travel should be a skill/service provided by specific classes.
Mounts (if any) should be difficult to acquire and not be available to low level characters. When your character is young, the world should feel big and scary, regardless of whether this is your 5th alt or if the game has been online for 5 months or 5 years.
Faster travel should come from learning the world, gaining experience in skills like mapping/navigation and from making new friends who can augment your travel through skills, ports, etc...
Multiquesting
There should not be a way for players to hand in quest components for other players. This is totally out of control on P99 where you have a handful of people camping jBoots or other key items and essentially holding the rest of the server for ransom with ridiculous prices on these items.
Players should complete quests and obtain items on the character which will get the quest reward - exclusively. If you have an epic quest with 20 subquests or items to be obtained, then do it in person.
Boxing
Multi-boxing has two major faults. It gets used heavily by gold farmers for RMT and it destroys community by letting players permanently bypass interaction with other players in groups.
I'm not saying you should have to group 100% of the time, but neither should be able to "solo" group content by having multiple accounts.
Equipment Decay
I love games that force you to do difficult corpse recovery, but PLEASE, don't make me constantly repair my armor/equipment after death or extended combat. That just seems like a mindless time sink. Corpse runs are "fun" and they teach you to be cautious and hone your strategy. Corpse runs discourage "zerging" which seems to be all too prevalent as a valid strategy in modern games. If you can die and run back and die and run back all in under 5 minutes, the game is flawed in my opinion. But repairing my gear all the time? No thanks. No real lesson here, just inconvenience and a resource sink.
Tiny Fonts
OK, so I'm not just an "old school" gamer, I'm an OLD gamer. My eyes aren't what they once were so I'm hoping that the UI has some flexibility for resizing text.
Kalgore said:Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
I wil agree to this. While I wish for some old school elements and stuff. Way to many people are demanding things that make no real impact on how they could play the game but could end up costing a lot of subscriptions due to how annoying it is. Many people needs to realize that some things need to be changed for convience that used to not exist just to give this game a chance instead of stonewalling and demnding things like 3 hour on foot travel to zones and corpse decay and equipment that gets destoryed and lost on death.
I have played Ultima, EQ, EQ2, EVE, even tried WOW not one of these games was perfect but Pantheon and borrow ideas from all of them to make an amazing MMORPG
You do realize that Pantheon Rise of the fallen has been promised to be exactly that...aiming for the niche group that other games dont cater to. We have been promised from day 1 a return to old school MMOs and to not bow down to popular demand for the modern conviences such as dungeon finders, fast travel. The majority of people supporting this game are the old schoolers that have not been able to find an mmo since leaving EQ. The current batch (last 10 years or so) of MMOs has catered to the instant gratifacation welfare epic twitch play players and we want a return to the slower, harder more thoughtful gaming experience.
I dont want to see all classes do all things
Dont want to tank on my cleric or heal on my mage.
if Im a healer let me heal.
I really dont want to see any automation, no group finder that finds me a group, ports me to dungeon and tallys up all my quest items as we speed run the dungeon
thats another thing..No instanced single run start to finish dungeons. I want static camps that you have to fight to and then fight to maintain, the members may come and go but the group remains.
And forced PvP..if there is a PvP server great just down allow it to dumb down or water down the PVE side of the game. Keep them seperate.
Sevens said:Kalgore said:Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
I wil agree to this. While I wish for some old school elements and stuff. Way to many people are demanding things that make no real impact on how they could play the game but could end up costing a lot of subscriptions due to how annoying it is. Many people needs to realize that some things need to be changed for convience that used to not exist just to give this game a chance instead of stonewalling and demnding things like 3 hour on foot travel to zones and corpse decay and equipment that gets destoryed and lost on death.
I have played Ultima, EQ, EQ2, EVE, even tried WOW not one of these games was perfect but Pantheon and borrow ideas from all of them to make an amazing MMORPG
You do realize that Pantheon Rise of the fallen has been promised to be exactly that...aiming for the niche group that other games dont cater to. We have been promised from day 1 a return to old school MMOs and to not bow down to popular demand for the modern conviences such as dungeon finders, fast travel. The majority of people supporting this game are the old schoolers that have not been able to find an mmo since leaving EQ. The current batch (last 10 years or so) of MMOs has catered to the instant gratifacation welfare epic twitch play players and we want a return to the slower, harder more thoughtful gaming experience.
and some of those things were absolouty Horrible you can have the niche game that brings back old school and improve upon certain aspects without hurting the game that might also help introduce new people to the hardcore area.
Sevens said:instant gratifacation welfare epic twitch play players
Redacted.
Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
And I think people like you who clearly lack an understanding of gaming before the modern era taint the forum far more.
See how opinions work?
Dullahan said:Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
And I think people like you who clearly lack an understanding of gaming before the modern era taint the forum far more.
See how opinions work?
What I see is unmitigated hatred for any innovation in the genre, and in some cases, even wanting to take steps backwards from EQ's innovations.
I understand that people want a hardcore game like EQ. I want it too. What I don't understand is the absolute rejection of innovation. It's completely absurd.
Kalgore said:Sevens said:Kalgore said:Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
I wil agree to this. While I wish for some old school elements and stuff. Way to many people are demanding things that make no real impact on how they could play the game but could end up costing a lot of subscriptions due to how annoying it is. Many people needs to realize that some things need to be changed for convience that used to not exist just to give this game a chance instead of stonewalling and demnding things like 3 hour on foot travel to zones and corpse decay and equipment that gets destoryed and lost on death.
I have played Ultima, EQ, EQ2, EVE, even tried WOW not one of these games was perfect but Pantheon and borrow ideas from all of them to make an amazing MMORPG
You do realize that Pantheon Rise of the fallen has been promised to be exactly that...aiming for the niche group that other games dont cater to. We have been promised from day 1 a return to old school MMOs and to not bow down to popular demand for the modern conviences such as dungeon finders, fast travel. The majority of people supporting this game are the old schoolers that have not been able to find an mmo since leaving EQ. The current batch (last 10 years or so) of MMOs has catered to the instant gratifacation welfare epic twitch play players and we want a return to the slower, harder more thoughtful gaming experience.
and some of those things were absolouty Horrible you can have the niche game that brings back old school and improve upon certain aspects without hurting the game that might also help introduce new people to the hardcore area.
You sure can, but its a fine line...start putting in to many convineces for the sake of the masses and you start to lose your core and then youre nothing more that any other run of the mill MMO..its going to be a tight walk for VRI and I really hope they can pull it off
Liav said:Dullahan said:Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
And I think people like you who clearly lack an understanding of gaming before the modern era taint the forum far more.
See how opinions work?
What I see is unmitigated hatred for any innovation in the genre, and in some cases, even wanting to take steps backwards from EQ's innovations.
I understand that people want a hardcore game like EQ. I want it too. What I don't understand is the absolute rejection of innovation. It's completely absurd.
Youre right..there is a hatred for most of the innovations of the current crop of mmos, even some of the innovations of EQ (super duper mana regen). We are here with Pantheon solely for the step backwards, its what we were promised and what we want. We are tired of instant gratification games. Were not against innovations per say, but the innovations that turn PROTF into a game and not a world
Sevens said:You sure can, but its a fine line...start putting in to many convineces for the sake of the masses and you start to lose your core and then youre nothing more that any other run of the mill MMO..its going to be a tight walk for VRI and I really hope they can pull it off
It's not really a fine line. It seems like literally every single suggestion, even ones that have a negligible impact on gameplay, are immediately shot down.
There is a massive line between the tenets of Pantheon and virtually every other MMORPG out there. Pretending like it's a tight rope is really only a harmful philosophy because it is demonstrably untrue and leads people to being resistant to some good things.
The thread about server firsts is a great example of this. People are ridiculously resistant to the idea because they keep forming strawmen regarding the implementation. Nobody said anything about the implementation, only having server firsts documented or expressed in some way. Instead, everyone's kneejerk reaction is "NO, WE DON'T WANT FLASHY **** ON OUR SCREEN!" when literally no one is suggesting that.
Strawman after strawman is really a very accurate characterization of how arguments tend to go one these forums. Nobody talks to eachother, they just talk past eachother with a bunch of propaganda about their super idealistic, impractical views of what a game should be. Even the people who agree with eachother often have contradictory opinions somewhere, but they still jerk eachother off because they're "on the same side".
It's a very different kind of toxicity but it's still just as toxic.
Sevens said:Youre right..there is a hatred for most of the innovations of the current crop of mmos, even some of the innovations of EQ (super duper mana regen). We are here with Pantheon solely for the step backwards, its what we were promised and what we want. We are tired of instant gratification games. Were not against innovations per say, but the innovations that turn PROTF into a game and not a world
Case in point.
Nobody ever said that, and instead of actually addressing what I said, you're just regurgitating the same lines over and over again.
Sevens said:Liav said:Dullahan said:Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
And I think people like you who clearly lack an understanding of gaming before the modern era taint the forum far more.
See how opinions work?
What I see is unmitigated hatred for any innovation in the genre, and in some cases, even wanting to take steps backwards from EQ's innovations.
I understand that people want a hardcore game like EQ. I want it too. What I don't understand is the absolute rejection of innovation. It's completely absurd.
Youre right..there is a hatred for most of the innovations of the current crop of mmos, even some of the innovations of EQ (super duper mana regen). We are here with Pantheon solely for the step backwards, its what we were promised and what we want. We are tired of instant gratification games. Were not against innovations per say, but the innovations that turn PROTF into a game and not a world
Some of them are really good to have some others ruined it. I agree it is a fine line but things do change the combat system is fairly Innovative but no one is complaining. Certain things sucked old school and something better has come out that doesnt turn this into a Instant Gratification game.
Liav said:Dullahan said:Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
And I think people like you who clearly lack an understanding of gaming before the modern era taint the forum far more.
See how opinions work?
What I see is unmitigated hatred for any innovation in the genre, and in some cases, even wanting to take steps backwards from EQ's innovations.
I understand that people want a hardcore game like EQ. I want it too. What I don't understand is the absolute rejection of innovation. It's completely absurd.
That is because you are largely referring to convenience and accessibility as innovation. Those were the very things that changed EQ from a realistic virtual world full of danger and consequences to a themepark gear grind.
It honestly doesn't sound like you have the discernment to tell the difference because you haven't played a first generation MMO when it was full of people, working as intended in a classic state. Its not meant as an insult, but when you spit venom at people who solicit oldschool mechanics, you respond as if you just can't comprehend why we feel the way we do and therefore assume its some sort of illogical plea based solely on nostalgia.
Liav said:Sevens said:You sure can, but its a fine line...start putting in to many convineces for the sake of the masses and you start to lose your core and then youre nothing more that any other run of the mill MMO..its going to be a tight walk for VRI and I really hope they can pull it off
It's not really a fine line. It seems like literally every single suggestion, even ones that have a negligible impact on gameplay, are immediately shot down.
There is a massive line between the tenets of Pantheon and virtually every other MMORPG out there. Pretending like it's a tight rope is really only a harmful philosophy because it is demonstrably untrue and leads people to being resistant to some good things.
The thread about server firsts is a great example of this. People are ridiculously resistant to the idea because they keep forming strawmen regarding the implementation. Nobody said anything about the implementation, only having server firsts documented or expressed in some way. Instead, everyone's kneejerk reaction is "NO, WE DON'T WANT FLASHY **** ON OUR SCREEN!" when literally no one is suggesting that.
Strawman after strawman is really a very accurate characterization of how arguments tend to go one these forums. Nobody talks to eachother, they just talk past eachother with a bunch of propaganda about their super idealistic, impractical views of what a game should be. Even the people who agree with eachother often have contradictory opinions somewhere, but they still jerk eachother off because they're "on the same side".
It's a very different kind of toxicity but it's still just as toxic.
Sevens said:Youre right..there is a hatred for most of the innovations of the current crop of mmos, even some of the innovations of EQ (super duper mana regen). We are here with Pantheon solely for the step backwards, its what we were promised and what we want. We are tired of instant gratification games. Were not against innovations per say, but the innovations that turn PROTF into a game and not a world
Case in point.
Nobody ever said that, and instead of actually addressing what I said, you're just regurgitating the same lines over and over again.
Youre right, we are just here talking past each other...we all have our idea of what we want and with such a lack of Info everyone is just throwing poo on the wall and seeing what sticks. I will be 100% honest with you, I dont care really what all goes into the game...if the finished game is in line with what I want I will play it, if not I wont and no harm done.
What point of yours didnt I address? I admited there is a hatred towards innovations that push the game towards the rest of the modern MMOs, they are to fast paced, to much instant gratification. that is what the core backers of this game are pushing against. I wont address the server first issue here as that has its own thread and I feel we should cover that there
Kalgore said:Sevens said:Liav said:Dullahan said:Liav said:Constant circlejerking about how every game made after the year 1999 is inferior.
This forum is tainted by purists and it's disgusting. That's what I don't want to see.
And I think people like you who clearly lack an understanding of gaming before the modern era taint the forum far more.
See how opinions work?
What I see is unmitigated hatred for any innovation in the genre, and in some cases, even wanting to take steps backwards from EQ's innovations.
I understand that people want a hardcore game like EQ. I want it too. What I don't understand is the absolute rejection of innovation. It's completely absurd.
Youre right..there is a hatred for most of the innovations of the current crop of mmos, even some of the innovations of EQ (super duper mana regen). We are here with Pantheon solely for the step backwards, its what we were promised and what we want. We are tired of instant gratification games. Were not against innovations per say, but the innovations that turn PROTF into a game and not a world
Some of them are really good to have some others ruined it. I agree it is a fine line but things do change the combat system is fairly Innovative but no one is complaining. Certain things sucked old school and something better has come out that doesnt turn this into a Instant Gratification game.
Not all of them do..but its the slippery slope that leads to it that we are pushing against. Instant travel, no corpse runs, no resource managment, dungeon finders, cross server dungeons...these are all things that, in my opinion, push this more towards a game and not a virtual world
I'm not stuck in the '99 box. It's just that all MMO's since have tried to make things better and praised "new features". Some have worked and some haven't. Some features have killed the feeling we miss. I don't think it's that we are against change, it's just that we're all so used to hearing how this MMO and that MMO are hyping something up and in the end it hasn't been what it's cracked up to be. The overall MMORPG direction has changed.
I'm fairly confident that the core direction of Pantheon will fill the void so many have missed. We are for the majority all looking for a social experience once again.
I hope we ALL can give Pantheon a good shot without judging it to harshly according to our beloved titles.
A dungeon finder tool and LFG que is what I would like to NOT see in game.
Dullahan said:That is because you are largely referring to convenience and accessibility as innovation. Those were the very things that changed EQ from a realistic virtual world full of danger and consequences to a themepark gear grind.
Absolutely untrue and I guarantee you can't cite anything that falls in line with this point.
Also, something innocuous like server firsts, a thread I've debated in recently, has absolutely nothing to do with themepark gear grinding.
Dullahan said:It honestly doesn't sound like you have the discernment to tell the difference because you haven't played a first generation MMO when it was full of people, working as intended in a classic state. Its not meant as an insult, but when you spit venom at people who solicit oldschool mechanics, you respond as if you just can't comprehend why we feel the way we do and therefore assume its some sort of illogical plea based solely on nostalgia.
Once again you're making a strawman of my argument, in addition to making assumptions about what I'm saying.
I played EQ in early 2001 which is the tail end of what is considered its best era. I understand plenty about first generation MMOs and I don't appreciate you talking down to me as if I'm uninformed.
The latter part of your paragraph is where you make a broad generalization that is a strawman of my position. There is a fundamental difference between rejecting oldschool mechanics as a whole (what I am not doing) and rejecting specific oldschool mechanics (what I am doing). There is value in both old and "new" school mechanics. I understand how everyone feels here because I feel largely the same way.
What I see is an unreasonable resistance to any change, just for the sake of the fact that it is change. This is where **** gets ridiculous.
TL;DR: I am standing dead center and looking at the merits of both "schools" of mechanics (old and new) whereas I feel like I'm surrounded by people who are married to the idea of any change being considered a negative without any consideration at all.