My apologies, as I usually like to read a thread/topic from the first post to the very last, but this one has spanned over a year and is almost thirty pages long and I don't have the time to read it all. So rather than try and "catch up" with the conversation, I'm just going to post my opinion/preference here for anyone who cares to read:
I played EQ from the first day it came out until some point where Planes of Power was still the current, latest expansion (with a couple of breaks in between). I think a lot of EQ players who started from the beginning like me and played at least as far as PoP will agree that two things (and perhaps others as well) largely diminished the social aspect and sense of community in EQ , which was one of the primary characteristics that made it such an amazing game and helped it keep my continued interest for years . Those two things were the introduction of the Bazaar (Auction House) in Luclin and the quick travel books/nodes in Planes of Power.
The introduction of the Bazaar/auction house in Luclin essentially killed the vibrant hub/community that was the tunnel in EC/Commonlands. When I couldn’t find a group, quite often I would go to EC/Commonlands and attempt to sell what wares I had and/or purchase wares from others. To me it was an enjoyable alternate to hunting/questing, whether because I couldn't find a group or wasn't going to be around long enough to justify joining a group. Part of the fun was bartering with people and trying to get the best deal possible. Even if I had nothing to sell or not much money to buy anything, I could still enjoy chatting with others in the tunnel and/or over the communication channels in the zone and share stories of adventures, etc.
The bazaar completely killed that and you went from the excitement and live atmosphere of the tunnel to the dull, dead atmosphere of the bazaar. Instead of live, active conversation and engagement you now had the lifeless, motionless environment that was the bazaar with players sitting there /afk like mute statues.
I am not saying I am against an auction house in a physical sense, which acts as a central structure/location to draws/attracts adventurers to buy/sell/trade wares. I am fine with that. I am against the automation that was introduced with the Bazaar in EQ and similarly with the auction house in WoW and other games. Those took away nearly all effort of exchanging items/money and took away a large amount of social interaction and a lot of immersion of the game away from me.
To me the concept/implementation of automated auction houses like those I just mentioned in fantasy-based MMORPGs would be roughly the same as going back to medieval times and introducing people to the internet and amazon/ebay and giving them credit cards, it just makes no sense from a logical standpoint in a fantasy setting game. Instead of going up to a player and handing them money and in exchange receiving an item(s) in return, you click a button and the money is removed from your character and somehow “transported” to another character and/or their mailbox and the item is removed from their inventory and you somehow receive said item by some method or another. I realize there is magic in all MMORPGs, but to me you can’t write logically write something like this off as “magic” without killing some degree of realism/immersion as it pertains to the fantasy world.
I would be fine if they introduced player housing at some point and allowed you to purchase/hire NPCs to sell your wares for you, but I still prefer everything to be player-to-player interactions when it comes to item/money exchange.
While it would diminish some of the realism/immersion for me, as an alternative to an automated auction house and for those who don't want to sit in a place like the EC tunnel all day, I would be ok with a server-wide trade channel like in EQ where people could list what items they have for sale and then arrange a time/place to meet up to exchange money and goods.
Will it be the end of the world if there is a bazaar or auction house in Pantheon? No, but for me personally I know I will enjoy the game more without them.
Just my two cents.
Beefcake said:I have to laugh when people believe a game should FORCE people to be social. If we were all social, many of us would not be gamers.
MMOS should encourage social behavior, but not force it.
Few things I hate more in life than haggling. If it comes down to it, I may just have to hire someone to do my buying/selling for me.
No easy group system=forcing people to be social. No easy quest hub=forcing people to b social. Mixxed, difficult zones=forcing people to be social.
No easy trade system like AH=forcing people to be social. Surely you see where I am coming from?
Again, my stance is that things that force you to be social are things that may belong in pantheon(more often than not it seems), not that things that force you to be social are the best things ever.
Enitzu said:Who says that every single thing in the game has to promote social interaction? The entire game is social. You have to make friends to progress. Plain and simple. Why does that mean you have to spend hours trying to buy or sell things? There is not 1 single thing that is "social" about old school EQ EC tunnel type systems. The most "social" thing I ever did there was buff newbs. When buying/selling it was all limited to "this is the price" and "Thanks!". I don't get where all the people with their rose tinted glasses can honestly sit there and say that this system is in any way better. It's time consuming and tedious boredom.
If it's in at launch, fine I can deal with it. But it's in no way the best option on the table.
Sitting around looking for groups is tedious and boring. I'd go so far to say that there are less people who will enjoy it than there are people who enjoy old style trading systems (like myself, I seriously enjoyed getting things like jester club or crookstinger in eq1, selling htem, buying more stuff, selling that for more, etc until wealth).
Yet we still will be searching for groups the good old fashioned way in Pantheon, why? because those who wish to be social will be.
The more I see coming out on Pantheon, the more I see that it is literally aimed at being social. Yes it will give you things you can do on downtime. But if you want a game that doesnt force you to be social, there are plenty of options.
In my most recent novel I did make your point though. Social trade system does not necessarily overlap with social game. There will be plenty of social elements, if VR feels trade does not need to be social, than that is how it is. I have no doubt I will use the AH fine, and easily/quickly get my trades over with without needing to talk to a soul.
BeaverBiscuit said:Beefcake said:I have to laugh when people believe a game should FORCE people to be social. If we were all social, many of us would not be gamers.
MMOS should encourage social behavior, but not force it.
Few things I hate more in life than haggling. If it comes down to it, I may just have to hire someone to do my buying/selling for me.
No easy group system=forcing people to be social. No easy quest hub=forcing people to b social. Mixxed, difficult zones=forcing people to be social.
No easy trade system like AH=forcing people to be social. Surely you see where I am coming from?
Again, my stance is that things that force you to be social are things that may belong in pantheon(more often than not it seems), not that things that force you to be social are the best things ever.
Team-based combat, questing, crafting, and other advancement is good in a MMO, but forcing social interactions in everything is terrible.
I simply will not spend all day trying to haggle over prices of mundane daily items. I will just have to hire a player-broker to buy and sell for me or suffer the coin loss by selling items to merchants. I am not going to have fun if I have to regularly do the one real thing I despise most IRL, HAGGLING.
Beefcake said:BeaverBiscuit said:Beefcake said:I have to laugh when people believe a game should FORCE people to be social. If we were all social, many of us would not be gamers.
MMOS should encourage social behavior, but not force it.
Few things I hate more in life than haggling. If it comes down to it, I may just have to hire someone to do my buying/selling for me.
No easy group system=forcing people to be social. No easy quest hub=forcing people to b social. Mixxed, difficult zones=forcing people to be social.
No easy trade system like AH=forcing people to be social. Surely you see where I am coming from?
Again, my stance is that things that force you to be social are things that may belong in pantheon(more often than not it seems), not that things that force you to be social are the best things ever.
Team-based combat, questing, crafting, and other advancement is good in a MMO, but forcing social interactions in everything is terrible.
I simply will not spend all day trying to haggle over prices of mundane daily items. I will just have to hire a player-broker to buy and sell for me or suffer the coin loss by selling items to merchants. I am not going to have fun if I have to regularly do the one real thing I despise most IRL, HAGGLING.
So why not force social interaction with trading and make combat/questing/etc. less social? The argument you're making is because you enjoy one form of social interaction over another, then the other is inherently bad/flawed. I don't mind that many of you don't like "social" trading, but I really don't understand why you can't see/agree on the merits of it. I completely get how convenient an AH is for those who don't like social trading, but I also can clearly see the inherent problems that the AH brings.
Archaen said:So why not force social interaction with trading and make combat/questing/etc. less social? The argument you're making is because you enjoy one form of social interaction over another, then the other is inherently bad/flawed. I don't mind that many of you don't like "social" trading, but I really don't understand why you can't see/agree on the merits of it. I completely get how convenient an AH is for those who don't like social trading, but I also can clearly see the inherent problems that the AH brings.
I think you misinterpreting my comments.
I have no problem with others socially trading. In fact, I am all for that option. Social trading is something that many MMO players consider important to their style of playing. Social trading is full of merits. I encourage VR to help them do it as best as they can.
However, I cannot stand haggling and trying to track down a player at a specific time/place. For me, I need some kind of market/broker system.
Of course, when options are mentioned, people start saying that if options are allowed, people will choose one way and no one will do the other. That is a non-sense argument. If people want to socially trade, they will. Even when markets are enabled in games, you still see plenty of spam where people are socially trading items.
For example, think about how markets form.
There may be 100 farmers or tradesmen/tradeswomen. They can each open a shop on their land that sells only their own items. People can come socially buy their products at each farm individually. Alternatively, they can try to increase sales by taking their items to a central location where more people congregate. This saves much time and can increase profits because people will pay more for goods if they don't have to travel as far to get them. And the customers that go to these markets now have greater access to a variety of goods.
However, if the farmer/tradeswoman is out crafting new items, she cannot be out selling items simultaneously. Therefore, potential profits and customers are missed. So, the tradeswoman now needs to hire help. Many tradesman are great at making their products. But, few are good at managing the business end.
So, now they have an options, hire employees or contractors. In game terms, this would be like hiring a NPC broker or hiring a player to act as a broker. This allows the farmer to do what he enjoys and considers important, while also allowing others that enjoy social selling to do what they enjoy and deem important.
So, as someone that hates haggling and seeking buyers/sellers, I advocate for an in-game broker. If that is not possible, I will just have to find a player that really enjoys the social trading and pay her to engage in social vending for me as a form of emergent gameplay.
But, my proposal does not force you to use a NPC broker AND does not force you to socially trade. You have the option to enjoy the parts of the game that you enjoy.
Beefcake said:However, I cannot stand haggling and trying to track down a player at a specific time/place. For me, I need some kind of market/broker system.
Of course, when options are mentioned, people start saying that if options are allowed, people will choose one way and no one will do the other. That is a non-sense argument. If people want to socially trade, they will. Even when markets are enabled in games, you still see plenty of spam where people are socially trading items.
...
But, my proposal does not force you to use a NPC broker AND does not force you to socially trade. You have the option to enjoy the parts of the game that you enjoy.
Think of what you're saying in terms of raiding...
However, I cannot stand raidng and trying to track down a group/guild at a specific time/place. For me, I need some kind of automated NPC-raiding system.
Of course, when options are mentioned, people start saying that if options are allowed, people will choose one way and no one will do the other. That is a non-sense argument. If people want to raid they will. Even when automated NPC-raiding are enabled in games, you still see plenty of players willing to manually raid.
But, my proposal does not force you to use automated NPC-raiding AND does not force you to manually raid. You have the option to enjoy the parts of the game that you enjoy.
Do you not see how this is perceived? Do you not see how this idea of an "automated" system eventually pervades into other aspects of the game that you do not want it to? I completely understand that trading is probably the least enjoyable social aspect of MMOs for most players. But treating it as unimportant because most players don't want to engage in it is exactly what led us to where we are today in the MMO genre. I'm not saying having an AH alone will "ruin" the game. But the attitude that it is acceptable will eventually lead to Pantheon becoming much like the other games of today.
Beefcake said:... So, now they have an options, hire employees or contractors. In game terms, this would be like hiring a NPC broker or hiring a player to act as a broker. This allows the farmer to do what he enjoys and considers important, while also allowing others that enjoy social selling to do what they enjoy and deem important.
So, as someone that hates haggling and seeking buyers/sellers, I advocate for an in-game broker. If that is not possible, I will just have to find a player that really enjoys the social trading and pay her to engage in social vending for me as a form of emergent gameplay.
But why advocate for an NPC at all? I see you're willing to hire a "player-broker" so why not advocate for that, especially given what effects an automated broker brings? I get that you don't like trading and want an easy-out.. how is that any different from group finding, raiding, etc.?
As usual, people try to take everything out of context to make a fake point.
This discussion is about brokers, not raiding. That is a totally false equivalence. And claiming that broker will eventually lead to harming other parts of the game is a false slippery slope argument.
If I have to use a player broker, I will. But, I prefer not to.
Unfortunately, for you, you are only willing to consider your way and everyone else can just bugger off. Not my style.
@Beefcake
No one is "forced" to do anything in a game, but you have to take into consideration that the majority of players will always choose the path of least resitance.
So even though no one is forced to do a specific thing, or use a specific system, people will always gravitate towards the most effecient/used one, and implementing a way of automated trading like NPC brokers that sell your wares will diminish the regularity of social trading and comunication.
He was not taking what you said out of context, Archaen was using the same logic you did with raiding.
(Ex: i don't like raiding with others, so lets implement NPC raiders that do it with/for me, you can still raid with other real players you're not forced to do it with the NPC) can you see where that type of thinking creates problems?
I also don't enjoy spamming trade chat for hours on end, but I can see that it's something alot of people seem to enjoy and the implementation of any sort of automated trading system will completly ruin that part of the game for them.
I'm certain VR will implement some way of trading that does not require any form of automated system. Lots of great sugestions have already been made (like the notice boards, or the newspapers, or your idead of player brokers,) These are all solutions that do no require a automated trading system.
Archaen said:Do you not see how this idea of an "automated" system eventually pervades into other aspects of the game that you do not want it to?
While I don't want to really weigh in on this argument again as I did in the past (Kilsin has been strongly hinting that systems like this are already thought through and are just awaiting the play testing phases), I do want to address this assertion you've made. Automated systems do not inherently overtake non-automated alternatives. This is a matter of balance. The example I've provided previously in this thread is a 99% tax automated system. That system could be as convenient as possible, but nobody would use it. The 5-10% tax systems we've seen in games are too light on the balance and generally take the lion's share of the trading pie because the convenience vastly outweighs the cost.
I am not making this post to argue in favor or against any party in this current iteration of the discussion. My views haven't changed since I posted them a while back.
I would like to see a regional auction house system in the game. I understand that there are a lot of people who will disagree, including some very good friends of mine, but I just want it to be clear that for me, having an auction house will be important. As much as I enjoy spending my time playing the market, I expect so much more from Pantheon, and would much rather spend my time adventuring. I feel that a local bazaar type setting would feel like a game within the game. I know that trade is one of the easiest ways to earn in-game currency, and if "convenience" is completely removed from the economy, players will be heavily incentivized to spend their time playing the "market game." It's not a huge deal either way. I have always been a market player in one degree or another, but I know that the decision on whether or not there will be an AH will dictate how I spend a massive amount of time in the game. If I can make more money sitting in the bazaar, why would I go farm names? Why would I ever bother crafting? I get that each of those things have other benefits than just making money, but there will be times where making money is the goal. For me, if there is no AH, 100% of my "make money" time will be spent playing the "market game." I hope that won't be the case but it may be a necessary evil. My characters pockets need to be loaded and I will take the path of least resistance.
Hate the idea of an auction house. It makes it easier for gold farmers to make their gold, it makes it easier for people that buy from those farmers to just twink themselves or alts out, and it basically means in game money has an inflated role. It is also very convenient for the average legit player to use. It's not all bad but I think people should be playing to get most of their gear and items. Auction houses just make it easier for people to skip huge parts of the game. And those people will be the first ones complainig of lack of content when they top out even though they pretty much skipped a huge amount of it. Why stay in the Cave of Despair one day longer when you can just buy that sword you want from there because it just showed up on the broker.
I am all for being able to buy things. this isn't a push for bind on equip or no drop. I love a real in game economy, but why make it so thats the focus? Why make it easy for the game to be based on stuff? Shouldn't it be based on the experience more then "look what I just bought!" Isn't "look what we just killed!" better?
Hey if thats what some people whant then fine, nothing I can do about that. At the very least if we must endure an auction house could there be a 40 or 50% broker fee for using it? That way it's something people will use as a last resort rather then their first option.
Just remember every feature that makes the game easier takes a few years off the total life expectancy of a game for a player like me and many of you. Every MMO I have ever played that I liked started out good or great. As the new easy mode features came into play at a slow creep over months, years the game kept losing some of the magic until it ended up being the same as all of the other games to come out in the last 15 years. Having an auction house won't make me quit the game, but its a strike against it and it will show that the future is not as bright as I had hoped.
If we have to have one make it for the lazy people. Have a fee or penalty on it or there will be no real trading system. As someone else said people will go for the path of least resistance. This game shoul never be for someone that wants something worth having to be easy.
Sabot said:Every MMO I have ever played that I liked started out good or great. As the new easy mode features came into play at a slow creep over months, years the game kept losing some of the magic until it ended up being the same as all of the other games to come out in the last 15 years. Having an auction house won't make me quit the game, but its a strike against it and it will show that the future is not as bright as I had hoped.
....
As someone else said people will go for the path of least resistance. This game shoul never be for someone that wants something worth having to be easy.
/Agree
-sorte.
I think people need to separate their arguments about buying items in general (versus killing/questing to get them) and buying from brokers instead of players.
Buying from players or brokers has no effect on whether or not someone can buy an item versus killing for it.
For the people still in support of an auction house, I ask that you meet the people in support of NO AH half way. After reading 30 pages I think people in support of NO AH also support players who do not want to sell their items personally. We are not trying to force you to sell your items personally. Meet us half way with a strictly player-ran economy. Meet us half way on player brokers, instead of NPC brokers.
With ALL of our differences among every person supporting Pantheon I believe we all at least want one thing in common, which is for Pantheon to be an amazing MMO that bucks this trend found in current MMOs that have made them antisocial and easy and etc. But rather 'bucking' the auction house trend or sticking with it why don't we revolutionize it. The evolution of this bartering system has basically gone from the 'EC Tunnel' version to the Bazaar version to the global auction house version which probably started around 2005 around the EQ2/WoW/VG era. And that's pretty much where we've been for years albeit some variations here and there such as ESOs guild ran AH system which is still very much an AH just approached differently.
Let's ask the devs to make Pantheon even more special by creating something new for how we barter goods. There are OTHER options for us other than a local auction house or global one. There are options for strictly player-ran economies without the aid of game-ran NPCs. There are options for players who do not want to sell their items personally to sell their items without an NPC ran auction house. I know the auction house system is tried and true for devs and is theoretically implemented into the game easily and creating something new would be messy and consume a little bit more time but I think it would be worth it for Pantheon to introduce a new way for players to barter and 'haggle' their goods.
Meet us half way and let's ask the devs to create something new. Who knows you might find it fun to actually talk to your broker rather than just dumping off all of your items to a mute NPC broker.
NoobieDoo said:For the people still in support of an auction house, I ask that you meet the people in support of NO AH half way. After reading 30 pages I think people in support of NO AH also support players who do not want to sell their items personally. We are not trying to force you to sell your items personally. Meet us half way with a strictly player-ran economy. Meet us half way on player brokers, instead of NPC brokers.
With ALL of our differences among every person supporting Pantheon I believe we all at least want one thing in common, which is for Pantheon to be an amazing MMO that bucks this trend found in current MMOs that have made them antisocial and easy and etc. But rather 'bucking' the auction house trend or sticking with it why don't we revolutionize it. The evolution of this bartering system has basically gone from the 'EC Tunnel' version to the Bazaar version to the global auction house version which probably started around 2005 around the EQ2/WoW/VG era. And that's pretty much where we've been for years albeit some variations here and there such as ESOs guild ran AH system which is still very much an AH just approached differently.
Let's ask the devs to make Pantheon even more special by creating something new for how we barter goods. There are OTHER options for us other than a local auction house or global one. There are options for strictly player-ran economies without the aid of game-ran NPCs. There are options for players who do not want to sell their items personally to sell their items without an NPC ran auction house. I know the auction house system is tried and true for devs and is theoretically implemented into the game easily and creating something new would be messy and consume a little bit more time but I think it would be worth it for Pantheon to introduce a new way for players to barter and 'haggle' their goods.
Meet us half way and let's ask the devs to create something new. Who knows you might find it fun to actually talk to your broker rather than just dumping off all of your items to a mute NPC broker.
Kudos to you for being a rally extraordinaire. The tone of your post has inspired me to pull a switcheroo, and that is no easy feat. I had a very horrible experience playing FFXIV pre ARR. It's the only game I have ever played that didn't have an AH, and it was an absolute nightmare. With that said, I am confident that VR is quite aware of the many pros/cons of different systems, and is aiming to recapture some of the nostalgia that the EQ1 players miss. I hear about this "EC Tunnel" business all the time, but unfortunately, it's not something I can relate to. I do realize however that it played a very special role in how people remember EQ1 ... so again, as much as it kills me to "venture into the unknown" on a topic like this ... you and the others have convinced me. This thread is absolutely massive and that says a lot about how much people truly care about it. I know my opinion doesen't mean more than anybody elses on here, but just 20-30 minutes ago I made a post about how I wanted an AH. I'm not sure what happened ... something just clicked with how you worded things. I am willing to step out of my comfort zone and try the experience of EC tunnel (or hybrid) that so many of my EQ1 friends want to see in the game. So again ... kudos to you, good sir, I will gladly "meet you halfway."
i will play pantheon anyway, but I really dislike AH. i used to play a wizi in eq and trade and sold lot of items. some items were quite to buy on continent A, and searched/rare on continent B. since i played on the pvp server, some stuff from dungeons in darky-territory was nearly not accessable for us lighties.
i met a lot of cool people, some i kept busines relation with. people say "thanks" and /bow after a trade, people whisper you for a price check, people ask you where did this item drop. you discussed a fair value/price for item X etc.
before i quite eq1, most of the time i was just buying/selling/trading items for more plattinium and wealth. it was fun to me. what i miss, was the item-linking. was quite tiring to write down all the stats of the item into a macro.
if there is an AH, all the interaction between player will mostly be gone. look at wow. 99% of the stuff is sold via AH, eventhough you could also sell it by spamming in /tradechat.
Beefcake said:Unfortunately, for you, you are only willing to consider your way and everyone else can just bugger off. Not my style.
When the Bazaar was first introduced to EQ, I thought it was awesome. I made a lot more money, easily outfitted my alts and had a great time playing the market. But there's no question it absolutely killed "social" trading. You could always send a /tell asking for info, a price reduction, or an equivalency trade... but it was rare to get a response at all (mosty due to afk). When EQ2/WoW came along they took this a step further with the AH. Now it didn't even matter who the person was who was selling the item. I can count the number of times I initiated/received a "social" trade in those games on one hand. Of course, the "spreadsheet war" aspect of it was fun for a bit, but it eventually gets old.
Along the way we saw plenty of new convenience features like quick teleports, dungeon finder, casual overland and raid content, game-time tokens, etc. It's not that I'm "only willing to consider [my] way and everyone else can just bugger off"... I've lived through the alternatives along with pretty much everyone else who is patiently waiting for an alternative. If we are to have "modern" MMO conveniences, I would hope we lean toward more social forms of it.
I made this point rather stridently about 2/3 of the way through this thread, and was a bit chastised by Kilsin for pushing on it so hard. They've made their decision on these things... it hasn't been revealed, but it won't be changed at least until it hits testing in alpha/beta. So there's really nothing to argue on where Pantheon should go. I was only trying to make the point that advocating for automated systems (trade or otherwise) is not a blind theory on what it causes or where it leads.
oneADseven said:NoobieDoo said:For the people still in support of an auction house, I ask that you meet the people in support of NO AH half way. After reading 30 pages I think people in support of NO AH also support players who do not want to sell their items personally. We are not trying to force you to sell your items personally. Meet us half way with a strictly player-ran economy. Meet us half way on player brokers, instead of NPC brokers.
With ALL of our differences among every person supporting Pantheon I believe we all at least want one thing in common, which is for Pantheon to be an amazing MMO that bucks this trend found in current MMOs that have made them antisocial and easy and etc. But rather 'bucking' the auction house trend or sticking with it why don't we revolutionize it. The evolution of this bartering system has basically gone from the 'EC Tunnel' version to the Bazaar version to the global auction house version which probably started around 2005 around the EQ2/WoW/VG era. And that's pretty much where we've been for years albeit some variations here and there such as ESOs guild ran AH system which is still very much an AH just approached differently.
Let's ask the devs to make Pantheon even more special by creating something new for how we barter goods. There are OTHER options for us other than a local auction house or global one. There are options for strictly player-ran economies without the aid of game-ran NPCs. There are options for players who do not want to sell their items personally to sell their items without an NPC ran auction house. I know the auction house system is tried and true for devs and is theoretically implemented into the game easily and creating something new would be messy and consume a little bit more time but I think it would be worth it for Pantheon to introduce a new way for players to barter and 'haggle' their goods.
Meet us half way and let's ask the devs to create something new. Who knows you might find it fun to actually talk to your broker rather than just dumping off all of your items to a mute NPC broker.
Kudos to you for being a rally extraordinaire. The tone of your post has inspired me to pull a switcheroo, and that is no easy feat. I had a very horrible experience playing FFXIV pre ARR. It's the only game I have ever played that didn't have an AH, and it was an absolute nightmare. With that said, I am confident that VR is quite aware of the many pros/cons of different systems, and is aiming to recapture some of the nostalgia that the EQ1 players miss. I hear about this "EC Tunnel" business all the time, but unfortunately, it's not something I can relate to. I do realize however that it played a very special role in how people remember EQ1 ... so again, as much as it kills me to "venture into the unknown" on a topic like this ... you and the others have convinced me. This thread is absolutely massive and that says a lot about how much people truly care about it. I know my opinion doesen't mean more than anybody elses on here, but just 20-30 minutes ago I made a post about how I wanted an AH. I'm not sure what happened ... something just clicked with how you worded things. I am willing to step out of my comfort zone and try the experience of EC tunnel (or hybrid) that so many of my EQ1 friends want to see in the game. So again ... kudos to you, good sir, I will gladly "meet you halfway."
I agree Noobie. You took something thats been mentioned plenty before and made it both clear and awesome. That's a rare and valuable gift. Player brokers are cool since they will still need to compete. I doubt they will ever get much more expensive than any realistic NPC broker.
The trouble with player brokers of course is trust. It will put a whole new requirement on a good self punishing player society. When you did get someone to buy and sell things for you though, there are few stronger in game relationships.
How about a system where you can somehow contract your items to other players? Like they can use/hold it until you say they can't, at which time it is teleported to your bank or some such? If you didn't have space then you simply couldn't annul the contract. Its a simple and probably too new to be good idea. I mean, gold sellers would have a field day if everyone could trust them to sell their stuff for profit. But still, the trust issue does bother me, thoughts?
how about a system like that:
Player A lootet a "dragonsword" and want to sell it, but he doest really have the time to do so.
He lend it to player B, a broker, attacked with a time limit and a minimum price.
Player B tries to sell it for an as high price as possible, since he will get a XY% amount of the selling pice.
If he cant sell it in time, the lend dragonsword would automatically go back (somehow) to its owner, player A. If sold, player A receives 90% (or whatever the broker fee was) of the selling price.
just a rough idea. perhaps someone can expend on it.
The effects of a typical MMO AH on trade is similar to the effects of the dungeon finder on social grouping. They both kill them, or at least water them down to a point where the community interplay method is no longer used.
DAoC had a good housing-based vending ability, think EQ bazaar where you stand your own vendor up to sell your items even when you are not online, but only at your house (I mean early DAoC's housing neighborhoods, not later when like every other MMO today they opened it up for casual-everything including buying anything from anywhere AH-style).
fazool said:Raive said:For people who say they like doing "person-to-person" transactions. I'm sure there are a good bit of you who share that same sentiment. There will be folks in game who prefer that method but forcing people who may not like that or have time for it as the only method of participating in the game's economy is just silly. I'm all for immersion, but this is one of the things I feel the novelty will wear off weeks/months down the road, hell even days.
That's the difference:
A certain population of gamers are sick and tired of MMO's that just cater to the instant combat kids, and want a virtual world where you have to live and interact. The economy is one of the mos timportant parts of that.
Problem is they are the new gen of players. You have to cater to those that are casual, hardcore and that like AH things. I dont really want to see spamming zones this time around. EC was fun, back in the day its over with so vendor sales are fine by me. I like to search for items, objects i want to purchase.
It seems to me at this point there is a small handful of Pro AH people that are doing most of the posting. No offense but this does not represent the opinions of the masses. Going back and re-reading this thread it seems to be many more who prefer player to player trading over an AH. But those select few who are against it are the ones doing all the posting as most have given up trying to debate with them since they wont give an inch. There are always things people arent fond of whether it be crafting, raiding, soloing, etc etc. Trading is one of those things as well. I am just disappointed to see that the small group of radical Pro AHers and their repeated outcries of not wanting player to player trading are causing Brad to give in to something he didnt really intend on doing. 1 of the things I was looking forward to most was the old school way of trading. Very disappointing...
This AH/no-AH issue can be solved quite simply with alternate ruleset servers. There is no need to give in or compromise. It is clear we have passionate people on both sides. With this solution, both parties will be happy.
To reprise part of a point made earlier in this thread...
Evoras said:THE BIG QUESTION (that nobody has asked so far)
However .... (cat flies through air towards pigeons)
... who do we want from trading?
There is an assumption from many that all players should be involved as merchants. Should they? What if only certain players took up 'The way of the Merchant' .. in the same way that only some players actibvely explore, others actively take up fishing and others still focus on their Guild and its betterment? Your average player would sell his 'loot' to local NPC vendors or the nearest 'Player merchant' who is buying that kind of stuff. Only the dedicated PC merchants would play the market, buying and selling - acting as middle-men between crafters and their customers for lower end goods.
Since when did we decide...
'everyone wants to be a merchant, so lets make it easy to do'.
... did we fall into this by accident?
I would also draw your attention to:
Jimmayus said:In a similar fashion, I believe the people discussing their lack of time to play the bazaaring game are kind of missing the point. Searching for good deals on items is as much a part of the fantasy of an old school MMORPG as fighting, and to complain that such a part of the game is too tiresome seems hypocritical. Sure you may spend a day in Kingsreach checking the various merchant's inventories to find good stuff and that's all you do, but why is that a problem? Is there something wrong with existing in a more fleshed out world? Surely you will root out good deals, profit ventures, etc., complete them, and then get back to fighting?
An over-focus on removing the "tediousness" of haggling, travel, and player interdependence is precisely how we got to the modern state of mmos and is also precisely why most of us are here in the first place. I would caution people to think about that when evaluating their perspectives.
I suspect that, for any player based economy to flourish, some form of 'market search tool' would be needed. What form that would take, what distance (or scope) it would cover etc are the debatable points.
Perhaps a supremely simple system; a few tools for traders...
A (craftable) notice board to be planted where you like,
A way (perhaps) to push these notices up to the nearest 'Big City' noticeboard
A rug/barrow from which to sell,
... then let the players figure things out!