Bluefyre said:NoobieDoo said:Bluefyre said:There is a reason it's called market PvP.
I never heard the term 'market pvp' nor have I played Eve. Could you explain it a little more in detail for me please? It sounds sort of like you would need to trade face to face and would not utilize a global automated auction house.Its called that because you are constantly battling others to buy and sale your wares. You have to out smart your competitors to either reduce their profit margins, or force them out of the market for an item completely. You really don't have to be face to face, but you are correct it isn't a global AH. You can see stuff that is for sale in only your region, but you still have to travel to where it is sold from to pick it up. And if people really want trades to be face to face, you can still have a system where the final transaction is made face to face, but buy and sale is handled by an NPC broker to not have to be online all the time.
Eve had a great system. You can see whats for sale in each Region (kind of like a really big zone) but you still needed to travel to get the item. People also sold stuff on auction and live Via the contract system (The single greatest way to scam billions in ISK) But you didnt need to be online to sell and you had the option to contact seller or go to an auction etc etc. and in EVE it could take hours to get to a certain region. This did lead to having a massive hub that was considered the central trade region Jita comes to mind.
Eves market system was incredible detailed and had graphes and charts just like you were trading on a stock market.
Niien said:If we are going to cater to the new gen MMO players then we might as well have automated fighting, traveling, trading, and crafting.
My excuses are:1. I don't have time to craft or collect resources so I need some system put in that will collect resources for me and craft the items I want instantly since I don't have time or have any interest in crafting.
2. I don't like the fight because it takes too long to level up and I'm a non-violent person, so I think I should be able to hire a NPC to do all my fighting so I don't have to waste my time doing it or I should just be able to buy the levels.
3. I don't like traveling or adventuring due to the huge time sink and the risk of dying. So I think we should put in a system that lets me put in an x/y coordinate and teleports me to that location.
4. I don't like sitting in one area trying to sell the items my items for money to fund my crafting, gearing up, or adventuring. So I think we should put in an automated system where I just press the 'Sell' button on my keyboard and everything I want to sell instantly sells so I don't have to waste my time doing it.
Short of the story is... we can all be closed minded to other people's idea of what makes a game fun for them. For you to tell someone who likes trading that we should eliminate that aspect of the game is the same as telling a crafter, adventure, or power leveler that we are going to automate that process for them. If at heart we are building a community game then we should stick to it. When we start to slip away from that idea we will start heading down a slippery slope and the road back is almost impossible. If someone doesn't want to spend time to advertise their gear and try to make the most money for it, then they should sell their gear to a merchant that will rip them off. Let's not start down the path of convenience and turn this into another game that claims to be different and is exactly the same as everything else.
This is grade A strawman and slippery slope fallacy BS.
Bluefyre said:Niien said:If we are going to cater to the new gen MMO players then we might as well have automated fighting, traveling, trading, and crafting.
My excuses are:1. I don't have time to craft or collect resources so I need some system put in that will collect resources for me and craft the items I want instantly since I don't have time or have any interest in crafting.
2. I don't like the fight because it takes too long to level up and I'm a non-violent person, so I think I should be able to hire a NPC to do all my fighting so I don't have to waste my time doing it or I should just be able to buy the levels.
3. I don't like traveling or adventuring due to the huge time sink and the risk of dying. So I think we should put in a system that lets me put in an x/y coordinate and teleports me to that location.
4. I don't like sitting in one area trying to sell the items my items for money to fund my crafting, gearing up, or adventuring. So I think we should put in an automated system where I just press the 'Sell' button on my keyboard and everything I want to sell instantly sells so I don't have to waste my time doing it.
Short of the story is... we can all be closed minded to other people's idea of what makes a game fun for them. For you to tell someone who likes trading that we should eliminate that aspect of the game is the same as telling a crafter, adventure, or power leveler that we are going to automate that process for them. If at heart we are building a community game then we should stick to it. When we start to slip away from that idea we will start heading down a slippery slope and the road back is almost impossible. If someone doesn't want to spend time to advertise their gear and try to make the most money for it, then they should sell their gear to a merchant that will rip them off. Let's not start down the path of convenience and turn this into another game that claims to be different and is exactly the same as everything else.This is grade A strawman and slippery slope fallacy BS.
I agree you are taking some crazy extreme to try and make your point better. But in the end there HAS TO BE a balance or this game will fail because not enough new players will play it with the older crowd. this issue is simple to fix by giving choices I have said it time and again Lots of people hated the EC tunnel in everquest they didnt do it because they loved but because there was not another choice it wa s atime sink that could waste my entire time I had to play. EVE by far had the best solution to copy in a game and anyone that thinks EVE is a game for dumbs it down for people to make it easy needs to give it a try.
Amsai said: Gotta say Im liking Raidans idea too. Quick questions though. 1. Consignment style: What percentage cut do you propose for the sellers? Would this require maybe a trade level or a license? 2. Bulletin Board: So my take on this is its less a way to sell like the other 2 and more a tool that either Consignment or EC Tunnel could choose to use or not. Why not just a reasonable listing fee for sellers and a small fee for buyers per search? Thoughts?.
30 Percent increase as a tax on the item and I feel it should be on the buyer. I list something for sale at 100 plat buyer sees it for 130. Buyer decides lets save 30 plat and go see this guy in the EC tunnel and buy it in person or in zone W/E. Depending on the time and area I might decide 30 plat is fine I dont care other days I might venture to the EC and save some money. I dont feel there should be any Fee to list an item just to let people know you are selling stuff.
Aradune said:So then, I open this question to all of you: What is too far? Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players? Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.? If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
thanks in advance for your feedback and ideas,
-Brad
Ugh ... can't make everyone happy Brad, first and foremost. On the other hand, you don't want people playing the game, poking around, and logging out permanently. That's not to say you should be doing hand-holding as you noted, because a lower amount of hand holding is something that is supposed to actually be appealing about Pantheon. That's why I'm quite passionate about the proposition of Pantheon being developed into a community, group-based MMO with characters that have actual meaning and relevance instead of everyone does everything at all times which, well, sucks pretty bad and they aren't getting my money.
What is too far?
Opening up a selling tool and purchasing an item and it pops in your inventory from anywhere in the game. That's too far. I think that's just too lazy. That's akin to being in 1620 and having a cell phone with an Amazon app and ordering a bushel of strawberries to be delivered with Prime shipping. Come on, you can't explain that even in magical terms unless you make up a story about gnomish whirly-bots picking up the goods and delivering them.
Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players?
As a fan of Classic EQ trading ... I admit, I'm a little older today, with more responsibilities, and diminished time. I wouldn't at all be against a trading setup like EVE has -- someone else, or two, noted how advanced EVE trading is. And you still have to journey to where the goods are and pick them up. I mentioned previously if you do have a trading system, I want charts! On the other hand, I could deal with it being entirely player-driven and you're all in a tunnel in EC ... but I'm not sure how globally appealing that is going to be in 2016. I know some really want that, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's unclear if people as a whole would dig it.
Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.?
Read above for my comment on trading. A LFG window showing who's LFG is just fine. But don't auto-group people, that goes in the Too Far column. Auto-grouped people generally just want to beat an event, get loot, and they all vanish without even saying a word. Sometimes you get stuck with some of the most obnoxious people, and I suspect one component of them being obnoxious is that they simply don't care because of auto-grouping ... they're going to get another group no matter how they act, usually. So a simple LFG tool showing who's LFG and you're left with hashing out the details yourself builds communication and community just that much more.
@Amsai
1. Consignment style: Good thoughts, perhaps there would be some trader license or merchant skill that was raised? Or trader level? Would the player who places items in the Vault Choose? Class A License - 30% cut Class F License - 5% cut? What justifies the higher %, etc. What justifies a trader having a higher license (amount sold, quests?) Would the player who places item in the vault choose, or just random luck which trader decides to sell his wares and that's the risk the player takes for convenience? Would be curious to hear ideas on how to try to implement the idea though.
Now... for the rest of the idea - don't pay attention to the numbers, they're all hypothetical to just discuss the idea.
For the player to put items in the vault at all there should be a 10% fee of what you want the item sold for. So if I place the item in the Regional Consignment Vault for 1,000 gold. Vault Fee automatically takes 10% (100 g) to avoid abuse.
Now for the trader - Maybe that have to pay for the stall/shop fee - 5-10% of earnings? If the trader had their own shop/stall, maybe they'd pay less or no fee? And let's say the trader takes a flat 30% cut off consignment.
So, theoretically the original player could earn 60% of the item (or up to 85% if you use your License idea). And, if after a period of time the player (who puts the items in the vault) realizes the item isn't sold, and wants to get the item. The player could retrieve the item and try to sell it themselves or vendor it at that point, but would be out at least the 100 gold listing fee.
And, I thought of a way to make sure the player was present as well. The searching of items could be automated within the shop, where a buyer could /search a list, but the buyer would need to send the /merchant a tell to purchase the item, and then a manual trade window would need to be opened to complete the transaction. And, once the item is removed from the search list, the shop takes the 5-10% cut.
2. Bulletin Board. Correct, not a way to buy or sell, but mainly a "convenience" to search what is available to buy/sell (not sure how trade would be figured) - similar to Craigslist/classified. A 5% item charge to list (so 50 gold for a 1000 gold item). You typically have to pay for classified ads, but usually not for Craigslist though. But, it would be an added convenience where a player wouldn't have to /shout WTS/WTB all day long, so 5% doesn't seem too high.
3. EC Style Tunnel. Player could earn full value on item because the trader is physically present, and selling their items.
4. Expanded EC style: Player run shop. Player has to be physically present, and, there's no cost/fees outside of the cost it was to purchase a house/shop or guild shop, etc. Similar to the merchant consignment shop though the players could /search for items but the trade would have to be manually to avoid abuse. Players could still auction items.
5. One other compromise I'd be ok with as well would be a commodities market. You could sell commodities (tradeskill items, research componentes, etc.) to regional commodities vendors could give a flat rate and mark them up 4-5 times what they buy them for. Then, the players could purchase the commodities of the vendors. Or, players could try to still sell the components EC style for 2-3 times the rate and give the player a discount for buying them in person versus the vendor.
And, I'd want all these items to be regional versus global. I know I'm making it more complicated than an AH, but, I want to see the game world stay alive versus having the automation.
The ONLY reason some people want an AH is to convenience themselves. Call it whatever you want however facts are facts. They don't want to travel or spend time doing something they don't like doing. So they want to simplify it so they personally don't have to deal with it.
There is a much much easier solution to that problem and that is to buy and sell your items at the NPC merchants. No elaborate system needs to be built so people can avoid putting in the work to attain the things they want.
I know it sounds mean, however sometimes the truth hurts. I'm don't intend it to be personal and if someone takes offense to it then those individuals most likely should ask themselves why they want an AH instead of the alternative which heavily community driven and promotes player interaction and socializing.
Raidan said:@Amsai
1. Consignment style: Good thoughts, perhaps there would be some trader license or merchant skill that was raised? Or trader level? Would the player who places items in the Vault Choose? Class A License - 30% cut Class F License - 5% cut? What justifies the higher %, etc. What justifies a trader having a higher license (amount sold, quests?) Would the player who places item in the vault choose, or just random luck which trader decides to sell his wares and that's the risk the player takes for convenience? Would be curious to hear ideas on how to try to implement the idea though.
Now... for the rest of the idea - don't pay attention to the numbers, they're all hypothetical to just discuss the idea.
For the player to put items in the vault at all there should be a 10% fee of what you want the item sold for. So if I place the item in the Regional Consignment Vault for 1,000 gold. Vault Fee automatically takes 10% (100 g) to avoid abuse.
Now for the trader - Maybe that have to pay for the stall/shop fee - 5-10% of earnings? If the trader had their own shop/stall, maybe they'd pay less or no fee? And let's say the trader takes a flat 30% cut off consignment.
So, theoretically the original player could earn 60% of the item (or up to 85% if you use your License idea). And, if after a period of time the player (who puts the items in the vault) realizes the item isn't sold, and wants to get the item. The player could retrieve the item and try to sell it themselves or vendor it at that point, but would be out at least the 100 gold listing fee.
And, I thought of a way to make sure the player was present as well. The searching of items could be automated within the shop, where a buyer could /search a list, but the buyer would need to send the /merchant a tell to purchase the item, and then a manual trade window would need to be opened to complete the transaction. And, once the item is removed from the search list, the shop takes the 5-10% cut.
2. Bulletin Board. Correct, not a way to buy or sell, but mainly a "convenience" to search what is available to buy/sell (not sure how trade would be figured) - similar to Craigslist/classified. A 5% item charge to list (so 50 gold for a 1000 gold item). You typically have to pay for classified ads, but usually not for Craigslist though. But, it would be an added convenience where a player wouldn't have to /shout WTS/WTB all day long, so 5% doesn't seem too high.
3. EC Style Tunnel. Player could earn full value on item because the trader is physically present, and selling their items.
4. Expanded EC style: Player run shop. Player has to be physically present, and, there's no cost/fees outside of the cost it was to purchase a house/shop or guild shop, etc. Similar to the merchant consignment shop though the players could /search for items but the trade would have to be manually to avoid abuse. Players could still auction items.
5. One other compromise I'd be ok with as well would be a commodities market. You could sell commodities (tradeskill items, research componentes, etc.) to regional commodities vendors could give a flat rate and mark them up 4-5 times what they buy them for. Then, the players could purchase the commodities of the vendors. Or, players could try to still sell the components EC style for 2-3 times the rate and give the player a discount for buying them in person versus the vendor.
And, I'd want all these items to be regional versus global. I know I'm making it more complicated than an AH, but, I want to see the game world stay alive versus having the automation.
I love this but also hate it froma technical standpoint. The more complex you make the issue the more resources it takes to program and keep up to date is the big issue. In a video game this in depth I really beleive the KISS idea has to be followed in certain area's. I have said it before but this seems to be fixed with a three part system. EC tunnel player gets full value for sold items no taxes or anything taken out. A regional board showing who is selling what and where they are. the third part being something like player housing You go to the players house to buy the item and it doesnt depend on if the seller is online or offline but if the seller wants 100 plat the buyer pays a 130 plat because of a 30 percent Fee for not going to the EC tunnel system.
You have the face to face some people want and you have the easy way but costly way to get items as well.
Kalgore said:Raidan said:@Amsai
1. Consignment style: Good thoughts, perhaps there would be some trader license or merchant skill that was raised? Or trader level? Would the player who places items in the Vault Choose? Class A License - 30% cut Class F License - 5% cut? What justifies the higher %, etc. What justifies a trader having a higher license (amount sold, quests?) Would the player who places item in the vault choose, or just random luck which trader decides to sell his wares and that's the risk the player takes for convenience? Would be curious to hear ideas on how to try to implement the idea though.
Now... for the rest of the idea - don't pay attention to the numbers, they're all hypothetical to just discuss the idea.
For the player to put items in the vault at all there should be a 10% fee of what you want the item sold for. So if I place the item in the Regional Consignment Vault for 1,000 gold. Vault Fee automatically takes 10% (100 g) to avoid abuse.
Now for the trader - Maybe that have to pay for the stall/shop fee - 5-10% of earnings? If the trader had their own shop/stall, maybe they'd pay less or no fee? And let's say the trader takes a flat 30% cut off consignment.
So, theoretically the original player could earn 60% of the item (or up to 85% if you use your License idea). And, if after a period of time the player (who puts the items in the vault) realizes the item isn't sold, and wants to get the item. The player could retrieve the item and try to sell it themselves or vendor it at that point, but would be out at least the 100 gold listing fee.
And, I thought of a way to make sure the player was present as well. The searching of items could be automated within the shop, where a buyer could /search a list, but the buyer would need to send the /merchant a tell to purchase the item, and then a manual trade window would need to be opened to complete the transaction. And, once the item is removed from the search list, the shop takes the 5-10% cut.
2. Bulletin Board. Correct, not a way to buy or sell, but mainly a "convenience" to search what is available to buy/sell (not sure how trade would be figured) - similar to Craigslist/classified. A 5% item charge to list (so 50 gold for a 1000 gold item). You typically have to pay for classified ads, but usually not for Craigslist though. But, it would be an added convenience where a player wouldn't have to /shout WTS/WTB all day long, so 5% doesn't seem too high.
3. EC Style Tunnel. Player could earn full value on item because the trader is physically present, and selling their items.
4. Expanded EC style: Player run shop. Player has to be physically present, and, there's no cost/fees outside of the cost it was to purchase a house/shop or guild shop, etc. Similar to the merchant consignment shop though the players could /search for items but the trade would have to be manually to avoid abuse. Players could still auction items.
5. One other compromise I'd be ok with as well would be a commodities market. You could sell commodities (tradeskill items, research componentes, etc.) to regional commodities vendors could give a flat rate and mark them up 4-5 times what they buy them for. Then, the players could purchase the commodities of the vendors. Or, players could try to still sell the components EC style for 2-3 times the rate and give the player a discount for buying them in person versus the vendor.
And, I'd want all these items to be regional versus global. I know I'm making it more complicated than an AH, but, I want to see the game world stay alive versus having the automation.
I love this but also hate it froma technical standpoint. The more complex you make the issue the more resources it takes to program and keep up to date is the big issue. In a video game this in depth I really beleive the KISS idea has to be followed in certain area's. I have said it before but this seems to be fixed with a three part system. EC tunnel player gets full value for sold items no taxes or anything taken out. A regional board showing who is selling what and where they are. the third part being something like player housing You go to the players house to buy the item and it doesnt depend on if the seller is online or offline but if the seller wants 100 plat the buyer pays a 130 plat because of a 30 percent Fee for not going to the EC tunnel system.
You have the face to face some people want and you have the easy way but costly way to get items as well.
Balance is key in all facets of life.
@Kalgore
I get keeping things simple, and I would prefer the simplistic EC style, but I do realize it isn't 1999, so some sort of advancements need to be made.
But, there wouldn't be too many working parts to my suggestion. The hardest part would be the player trading stalls/shops and if some sort of trading license system was implemented.
But at a very basic level, most of the systems have been used in other games:
1. Trader Stalls/Shops: Bazaar style vendoring similar to EQ without the automation - no one could click "Buy" from the vendor, but the rest would function the same.
2. Cosignment Item Vault - similar to any bank, they would just put a sliding scale fee to insert an item.
3. Bulletin Board - a simple searchable list that could be similar to a UI pop-up for LFG with tabs for Buy/Sell, and, if the % is too difficult, it could be a simple listing fee.
4. Commodity Vendors wouldn't take any work at all outside of adding the NPCs.
Thanks for fleshing it out more Raidan. I might tweak the numbers a bit, if it were me on the consignment. But that seems like a dev balance thinger, so Ill leave that to the mathemagicians. Just keep in mind it needs to be reasonable, yet at the same time worthwhile to the consignment players. They need to feel like its not better to just sell their own things.
That brings up another idea. Why couldnt you open a shop for both. Youve just crafted a mountain of fishing poles. So you set up a shop to sell them. But you could also do consignment sells at the same time you are managing your wares and sell some bait for someone and taking a cut. I mean you are already in trader mode so why not?
I agree it is kinda complicated. The complication doesnt bother me so much. Just as long as it offers some convenience for finding things. And if Im in a hurry to unload some wares.
I like the idea of a cosignment shop. The devs could create a giant shop or even something like a flea market where it's a giant tent covered area in cities or villages around the world. These shops would have the tools needed for PLAYERS to run and not NPCs. Players could access these cosignment shops in various ways. Certain players would be the actual players who sell the items while others would just drop off their items. And then you would have your customers. This would sort of function like the EC tunnel and the Bazarre combined, just modernized.
Players would have to be online and present to sell the items, whether it is their own or someone elses. These shops could have crafting stations and what not so the players selling would have something to do. The players who actually physically sell the items would get a decent share of the profit and maybe have some other benefits like discounts on selling their own items. The players NOT selling the items would stop by the shop and drop off their items with the SHOP not the PLAYERS running the shop. Having the shop (or game) handle the items would protect players from having their items stolen. I would love to believe the honor code would hold up in a feature like this but having the game handle the items I feel is just the better course of action. This way you can feel safe that some ya-hoo is not going to run off with your items. You drop your item off with the shop and the player running the shop never has access to your items, they are just there to handle the sale. If a players item sells then the player running the shop would get his % and the player who owned the item would come later to collect his share.
The concept functions very much like the EC tunnel where players post up and sell their items. Players could hang out and craft and buff players as they come by or play cards or just hang out and socialize. It is reminescent to the Bazarre because it is a dedicated area for players to sell, only they have to be online to sell. The difference in all of this is that the devs create these areas ahead of time and place them across the world. They give tools to the players that allows them to unload their items safely without fear of someone stealing their goods and it gives players the power to sell these items with a nice functioning UI.
If there were no global auction house these cosginment shops would be very possible AND very valuable. They address the concern with automated sellers as players would not need to be online to sell their items, they could just drop it off with these cosignment shops if they are willing to pay the fee. If not then yeah, they will have to sell the items themself. It is immersive and it creates an atmosphere of community where playes gather to handle an important sphere of the game.
Really loving all the diverse views on the AH. Most likely I am thinking we will see a blend of both. EQ2 and VG did a good job of having a marketplace without overwhelming direct sales in my opinion. In EQ I rarely sold anything other then the rarer gear because it was either to much of a hassle to sit there shouting what i had in the early days, or leaving my PC on 24/7 in the baz before they made offline available...
@Amsai,
Yeah - rough numbers, I was just using them for the sake of showing how the idea would work. And, I should have mentioned, if a player ran their own shop, they would be able to sell the items from the consignment item vault as well, to sort of "double dip" and being able to make full price on their own wares if they had their own stall, and the consignment cut whatever was decided (the 25% or so). So, there could be meaningful gameplay created from playing the role of "trader" as well.
@Noobiedoo
Exactly - the consignment shops or player ran trader stalls/shops would a modernized player ran EC Style/Bazaar Hybrid system with some new tweaks that required players to still be present to keep the community element intact, but, it would also provide players who did not want to physically sell their own items an option. Only difference, it would be "some" player still selling the items versus having a magical auction house. And agreed on the game managing the consignment vault side to avoid abuse - I wouldn't be opposed to that level of automation for security reasons.
Kalgore said:Bluefyre said:Niien said:If we are going to cater to the new gen MMO players then we might as well have automated fighting, traveling, trading, and crafting.
My excuses are:1. I don't have time to craft or collect resources so I need some system put in that will collect resources for me and craft the items I want instantly since I don't have time or have any interest in crafting.
2. I don't like the fight because it takes too long to level up and I'm a non-violent person, so I think I should be able to hire a NPC to do all my fighting so I don't have to waste my time doing it or I should just be able to buy the levels.
3. I don't like traveling or adventuring due to the huge time sink and the risk of dying. So I think we should put in a system that lets me put in an x/y coordinate and teleports me to that location.
4. I don't like sitting in one area trying to sell the items my items for money to fund my crafting, gearing up, or adventuring. So I think we should put in an automated system where I just press the 'Sell' button on my keyboard and everything I want to sell instantly sells so I don't have to waste my time doing it.
Short of the story is... we can all be closed minded to other people's idea of what makes a game fun for them. For you to tell someone who likes trading that we should eliminate that aspect of the game is the same as telling a crafter, adventure, or power leveler that we are going to automate that process for them. If at heart we are building a community game then we should stick to it. When we start to slip away from that idea we will start heading down a slippery slope and the road back is almost impossible. If someone doesn't want to spend time to advertise their gear and try to make the most money for it, then they should sell their gear to a merchant that will rip them off. Let's not start down the path of convenience and turn this into another game that claims to be different and is exactly the same as everything else.This is grade A strawman and slippery slope fallacy BS.
I agree you are taking some crazy extreme to try and make your point better. But in the end there HAS TO BE a balance or this game will fail because not enough new players will play it with the older crowd. this issue is simple to fix by giving choices I have said it time and again Lots of people hated the EC tunnel in everquest they didnt do it because they loved but because there was not another choice it wa s atime sink that could waste my entire time I had to play. EVE by far had the best solution to copy in a game and anyone that thinks EVE is a game for dumbs it down for people to make it easy needs to give it a try.
I don't hear anyone here suggesting to have it like the 18 year old EverQuest. Did you read this thread yet? There are many suggestions, eluding to a more modern approach. But in the end, this is not a arcade game, but a Role Playing game and there is not going to be Auction Houses like in EVE. There doesn't need to be any auction blocks in Pantheon, if done right.
Automated One on One is OK. But you as a buyer will have to move through the crowd yourself. (It is VERY BAD once the developer provide some sort of searchable sellers window, etc) You will have to seek out different towns and taverns on your own, to find the best deals. So knowing geography and the area and natural resources, is how the economy works. If you are a dumb player and don't take notes of what village (& local armorer) that sold awsome +4 Agl Plat, & now months later when you need some, it takes you 4h to backtrack and find that Village Armorer. Learning instead to actually remembering it...
Part of "PLAYER SKILL" of knowing where to find things.. and how thatn matters. How in-game experience matters. More so, because others are too helpless without a dangling carrot, or the internet.
There doesn't need to be any auction houses.
You can have towns & villages all over w/ local merchants tents. (And perhaps a certain Village is specially known for their Evening Market, in the heart of their Village after the lights turrn on) with usually 50 merchants willing to sell to you every night... One just needs to walk up and talk to them.
Assembly is more important than aiding in trade.
Plus, most here will have to understand the cadance of trade will be much slower in Pantheon. Big items may gain in value the longer you hold them, or the farther you move it from where you found it. Running to sell things will not be a daily thing, mostly a once a week thing, even for the more hearty players.
Big cities will always have high activity and people harking their warez. & which can go for any place. But, for automated selling (with searchable database of items listed abroad)..? That is just too cheap and breaks immersion, and just because someone doesn't want to remember things for themselves...?
NO brokers, no auctions..
I stand in the middle on the issue.
I liked the EC tunnel, at least early on, for it's natural organic feel. But as population grew, as well as the amount of items looted within the game, following the auction shouts in zone became tedious and annoying at busy times. Finding player was sometimes difficult too as 10 people would be stacked together at T1, or the mob of name tags made reading any of them difficult.
The bazaar was cool when it came out, as it created a way to buy and sell without all those other difficulties, but it quickly became a mess, and often you had to stare at the floor to even move in the zone.
I like the idea of a game designed space for trading (Much like what EC tunnel was made by the players), that would have the market feel (visually...stalls, tables, tents, stores.), but still be somewhat organic like.
I like the suggested "tradeboard", to see what is for sale, but still need to contact the seller. Some sort of offline sales should be available though, as there are many people who play at off-peak times. Could be an "offline" tradeboard, and you contact the seller via in-game email or something, then you setup the sale. If a player is too far or unwilling to come to the seller, the item could be transferred via "Pan-Ex", in which the buyer pays the "shipping" fees. Then you don't have inflated prices due to the seller paying a tax, but the convienence if the buyer is unavailable to make the deal in person. You could even put a delay on the delivery.
Niien said:I still don't get it, why can't the people who don't want to sell their items just sell and buy from NPCs? Why would we want to dedicate time to building a huge complex system to cater to a few that are complaining?
Because the right tools and systems promote competition and therefore stronger and more realistic markets. But by all means keep using straw man fallacies to claim people are just whining or trying to dumb the game down. Don't bother responding if you can't create a reasonable and grown up counterpoint.
Bluefyre said:Niien said:I still don't get it, why can't the people who don't want to sell their items just sell and buy from NPCs? Why would we want to dedicate time to building a huge complex system to cater to a few that are complaining?
Why can't people that want there own face to face EC tunnel make there own and ignore any other system put into place??
Romulus said:A world-wide auction house (or bazaar for that matter) makes everything a commodity. You just set your price to the lowest to unload it quick, or somewhere in the middle if you don't care if it sells or not. Prices are driven towards zero.
If you eliminate the auction house then you can introduce a bit of value-added service into the community.
...
I am hoping for a huge world. Many thousands of players per server/shard/whatever. Many different crafts and items and interdependencies.
Exactly this.
Some of my fondest memories were spent in a player driven, face to face type market. You advertised your goods and conducting all your business in messages. You bartered, traded, haggled AND you made friends, contacts, reputation etc.
At that time it was all we knew. We didn't know anything about an automated auction system back then. Now, knowing what I know. I miss that personal social aspect of it all. If you needed quick money, you sold to NPC merchants, if you had the time to spend then you did it with players.
I'm not sure the best method, or if there is one. It's going to ultimately come down to what will best benefit players and the overall economy of the game I'm sure and I think that is best kept healthiest when you aren't allowed to sell everything even when you're logged out (still cornering a market of sorts).
Aradune said:So then, I open this question to all of you: What is too far? Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players? Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.? If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
thanks in advance for your feedback and ideas,
-Brad
I think you should look at each issue and consider in your many years of playing and developing games, what has proven to be 'fun' and what has proven to be simple 'convenience'.
I've thought pretty hard about the Auction House issue - initially I thought it's inevitable and to not have it is just puritanical masochism. But, actually, the AH isn't 'fun', it's just convenience and it even damages the game in some ways.
The problem the AH resolves in other games is that there is a need for high volume, low price commodities to be traded like crafting materials.
How about find another way to resolve that problem?
Options at the NPC local commodities vendor:
Player-Seller sells items to the NPC-vendor for a fair, game-set price
Player-Seller places advert with NPC-vendor for items they agree to make/obtain for sale at the NPC-vendor price. Advertising fee is charged.
Player-Seller places advert with NPC-vendor for Player-Seller price. Advertising fee is charged.
Player-Seller places item with NPC-vendor and advertises Player-Seller price. Advertising fee is charged. Large tax and service charge is added to price
Player-Seller satifies want ad at Player-Buyer price (see below)
Player-Buyer buys items Player-Seller has sold for a fair, game-set price (higher than Player-Seller got to cover advertising and service)
Player-Buyer places want advert with NPC-vender for items at fair, game-set price. Advertising fee charged.
Player-Buyer places want ad with NPC-vendor for items at own price. Advertising fee charged. Tax and service added to price.
Player-Buyer contacts Player-Seller directly in response to advert
Player-Buyer contacts Player-Seller directly in response to advert to negotiate price (probably between seller price and taxed price - both win)
Player-Buyer buys item at Player-Seller price plus tax and service charge
Not sure that covers every bit of logic, but you get the idea? So you still have to go to the vendor in some community hub somewhere, but you can advertise and effectively have a business that's as personal as you like. Of course, if you are good and people remember you, you can do ongoing business direct and avoid advertising, tax and service charges (and the charges should be enough so as to greatly encourage this transition, but allow those that wouldn't bother otherwise to still contribute to trade).
I also think this model allows a nice amount of dev control of the economy (fair vendor prices for common and essential commodities).
You could expand it to allow advertising and shipment to non-local commodities markets, but the service charge and taxes should be increased.
Sorry there isn't a TL;DR version...
Ok after reading most of this entire post I had a good little chuckle and have to say most of what was said makes little sence.
1) if it's in the game and you don't want to use it don't use it. That goes for auction houses looking for group dungeon finder or what ever mechanics like that are PLAYERS choice not mandatory.
2) having no AH is just for players who want to stay in an area and farm selling items to people who run to them. If you want to sell something and you have to leave the area to sell it and lose the group or camp well to bad. Yell in zone or run to AH
3) having an AH makes both the seller and purchaser have to move to an area to buy and sell and now makes traveling a part of both players not just one.
4) any game I played the buffing and stuff was done where ever the players congregated to and moves with the population one mont it is here next month it is there and so on.
Should you be able to click a button and buy of the AH where ever you are NO. There should on,y be trade channels in certain zones as well like startin areas and zones with an AH. If done correct AH's can be a great mechanic for a game it allows players a way to sell their loot new players to get slight upgrades which makes the exper more enjoyable, allows crafters an outlet to sell crafted items. Makes great gathering areas for players to congregate at. I read a few times about EVE's market and I have to agree it was a very good system. You could see trades it the area but had to travel to the station it was sold at to pick it up or pay a very heavy dillivery charge. You had to train in the skill to be able to expande the area you could view items for sale.
So basically if you want to stand some where and spam the chat channels to sell your stuff that is up to you if you want to spam for a group that is up to you and if you and to spam for a raid again that is up to you. just because a mechanic is in a game doesn't mean you need to use it. But why make everyone have to play they way you want them to play. I like the AH it gives more flexibility to a game. I like the looking for group mechanice it's a great way to meet new people I also like pugs it gives you the opportunity to view and experience more strategies and play styles As no playper plays the same as another. That being said I'll still enjoy it if here is no AH or group finder and such I'll just do things other ways like yelling in zones lol.
I think it is great that the developers are asking us players what we think but in the end the developers will need to make the hard choices but as long as a game mechanic like those mentioned are not mandatory what differen will it make? well other then making it a little more flexible and attracting more players.
Personally I loved the bazaar, before they added the ability to search for goods. I am mostly with Niien on this, I just don't see why vendor sale prices can't be set to such that selling an item to a vendor is an attractive option, if you don't want to spend the extra time to milk every cent out of that item.
The bazaar was a wonderful feature, I just didn't like when they added the ability to search for a particular item, because then it just became a glorified AH. Originally there was no way to search for goods without going stall to stall checking, and you got to know the names of the sellers and what sort of goods they had on hand.
In the end I just hope there isn't some window I type an item name into and it tells me who is selling it for the cheapest, and where they are at.... we're supposed to be bartering, not shopping for car insurance.