Aradune said:Mephiles said:
Yellow: You keep saying it is a fact but fail to present a case where I have. It is very, very simple, the EQ tunnel exists because of dev implimented features. Auction house trade exists because of dev implimented features. BOTH are a product of DEV IMPLIMENTED FEATURES.
First, I don't want to completely wade into this debate, but I did have to say this (and I hope I'm not misunderstanding your assertion -- if so, apologies in advance):
Other than by NOT implementing a interface for trade, we did NOT design or plan or even predict the EQ tunnel trade area. This was player-driven emergent behavior. In hindsight, given it's location, I understand WHY it became a popular place to buy/sell/trade, but we didn't put that tunnel there thinking or planning for people to do commerce; rather we put it there so that people wouldn't necessarily have to go through Freeport to get from the commonlands down south.
Yes that is not what I was meaning to say (I fully understand that it was probably not an intended spot for what it became). I was merely attempting to suggest that player behavior evolves and is somewhat determined by the tools given by developers and the world in which players find themselves. The tunnel may have been an entirely player driven initiative but it happend where and how it did as a result of the "artificial" elements as they were being called, that were put in the game by developers. That is my grounds for comparison, that an auction house is just another tool (no more, no less).
So then, I open this question to all of you: What is too far? Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players? Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.? If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
What is too far?
The isle in VG comes to mind. ( I know this was added Much later after release ) but it was 100% hand holding. (please don't have One starting area that we have to do over and over and over with each character. Starting zones should be by Race.
I think selling off line is too far. I am biased to the way things worked in EQ1. I admit that, but it worked.
Do you think we should leave all of this completely to players?
Yes.
Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc?
I think a /lfg tag with /who all LFG or a LFG box in the UI is far enough. Let people make and get their own groups. NO groupfinder like WoW.
I could do /LFG on any character while standing in EC tunnel selling/buying and within 15 min I would have a tell asking if I wanted to come join somewhere.
I won't be one of those people who say "if you do this. Ima Rage Quit" before the game ever gets released. I just honestly like player interactions, and selling off line and thru some sort of AH is Not what I want to see.
People are complaining that they don't want to waste time standing in the tunnel buying and selling. They make games for people like that already. WoW, SWTOR, etc.
You are right, this isn't 1999 anymore, people are smarter and now need less hand holding the ever before. I was a lost puppy when I first logged into EQ1.
As a dark elf. I couldn't even figure out how to get out of the city. Someone had to show me the way out. That was my first friend in the game. We talked for years after that.
What would be taking it too far?
AH, WoW style LFG box that instantly takes you across the world to do a '5 man dungeon run' etc. Mounts the trvialize content. etc.
I have faith in the pantheon team. I am sure you guys will come up with a good balance. I even hope I am not required to have a "player housing" plot. If selling requires a house or is the Only way to sell offline - that is also Too far.
I honestly don't want to waste my time with housing. Housing has never been useful in any way, in any game IMO. Since it looks like you support selling off line, don't force me to pay rent on a house to do it. just put in a Bazarre and be done with it.
Nimryl said:Aradune said:
So then, I open this question to all of you: What is too far? Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players? Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.? If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
What is too far?
I think it's too far when the game is altered in such a casual way to support newbies... which then effects the other vetran players.
I think that's the wrong approach. Read further down for more of an explanation.
Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players?
We should trust the players/community more. I think most of us here recieved some form of help from another player with-in EQ. Even myself.. before EQ I had never played any RPG before; never mind a mmo.. so I was thrown in at the deep end so to speak with Everquest. But the point is I got help from the community/players.
Suggestion: So I think precisely that.. I think a voluntary guide system would be best with a button to list them. Voluntary guides could put a flag on for instance like /guiding so they only appear in the list then or go wondering to help newbies (if they wished). For me this would be the best way instead of making the game easier or simplified for people who aren't used to that sort of game.. teach/show them in a nice a friendly way using the community. :) - a personal touch is much more than an automated one. You could also add a rating system to the guide system too.. that way he/she is always on his/her best behavior and gets rewarded in-game for a good rating.
Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.?
Finding people to group with an LFG tool like EQ's would be nice. One thing I would add though.. is a shown/displayed timer on how long you've been lfg. That way people can pick the people who have been waiting the longest.. this would improve the experience slightly. Help with item transactions and the rest I think could be solved via the suggestion above.
If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
Taking it too far would be making everything trival with no/little player interaction. Also LFG Matchmaking (as in no lfg list just a hourglass/waiting icon and then suddenly instantly in a group)... hate this so much.. never ever do this. <--- that's taking it too far.
Great post. As a gamer I pretty much totally agree with it. As for what would take it to far, I totally agree with it both as a gamer and developer.
That said, I still feel (for clarification: I'm sharing my thoughts with you, not annoucing exactly what Pantheon will be like, because a lot of this is not going to be finally decided until beta) that some extra tools that did not exist in EQ to help people make friends, find groupmates, trade, etc. will be necessary to help proactively build community. This being 2016 and not 1999, and with the number of people who have experienced MMOs being easily 12+ million now, combined with many of them never having played a community-driven game, I think we will see a lot of players come into Pantheon and struggle a lot at first if we don't proactively help.
Now I totally understand your concerns, and if we overdo this, we'll actually hurt the community and the game itself.
But remember, we are not only targeting old school MMO players with Pantheon -- we truly believe there are a LOT of players who never experienced the first generation of MMOs who will try out Pantheon and love it. My concern, though, is that when they try the game and aren't themselves used to a community-centric, social, cooperative game, that some/many might become frustrated early on and quit. I think we may need to ease them into this 'new' (I know, really it's old) style of MMO. So that's what we've been thinking about for sometime -- how can we do that, but not go too far and make Pantheon into something it was never meant to be. We have lots of ideas, but we need to try them out in beta. But it's a big enough issue for me that I've made these posts and am looking for our existing communities feedback as well (and you guys are providing that -- thank you).
To make sure I'm being clear: I don't expect everyone who tries the game who never experienced the first generation of MMOs to like Pantheon -- Pantheon has a specific target audience and we are NOT making a game that is all things for all people. A lot of people won't like Pantheon whether we leave all of this totally up to the community or if we put in some functionality to help build community. And, as I've stated before, I'm ok with that. But I also think that a lot of people who never experienced the first generation of MMOs will LOVE Pantheon once they've experienced the magic of a community-focused, social, cooperative MMO. We need those people, and so you do you guys. And so, unlike EQ where we just let everything happen organically, we are considering 'helper' mechanics that proactively help and even push people into the community. Trade is important, and I'm glad we're talking about it, but the big one for me is making friends in-game. People just don't do that anymore because 1. they don't need to and 2. many people who play MMOs now don't want to. Again, I'm fine with #2 -- they're not going to like Pantheon. But #1 has created a situation where people who DO enjoy socialzing and cooperative play don't know to look for it, don't know how or might be hestiant to reach out to other players, etc.
It's sad in a sense -- I feel compelled to put some systems in the game that probably wouldn't be necessary if MMOs hadn't altered course in the last 5-10 years and become a different animal. But, while we can all criticize and lament this reality, it's still a reality.
Mephiles said:Yes that is not what I was meaning to say (I fully understand that it was probably not an intended spot for what it became). I was merely attempting to suggest that player behavior evolves and is somewhat determined by the tools given by developers and the world in which players find themselves. The tunnel may have been an entirely player driven initiative but it happend where and how it did as a result of the "artificial" elements as they were being called, that were put in the game by developers. That is my grounds for comparison, that an auction house is just another tool (no more, no less).
Well I certainly agree with your general point: the mechanics of the game, the layout of the zones, the content, indeed *everything* we do, influences player behavior. But our goal also with Pantheon is to have more of a sandboxy open world where all sorts of player emergent behavior occurs. Thus, we are hesitant to provide mechanics and functionality that might inhibit this behavior or hurt the natural evoluation of an MMO community.
@Aradune
Hmmm what's a really tricky one because they really do don't match each other very well. Alot of us are against "hand-holding" features but I do see your point and I agree there will be some who will enjoy it but just dont know/realise it. I'm not sure.. I still a think guiding/helping hand is best atm but we'll see what you guys and others come up with.
I think the only thing that would be "going too far" would be anything that would hurt the trader role in Pantheon. In other words, if the system makes it so the players who actually enjoy the social aspect of trading and spending time traveling to buy/sell and accumulate wealth (and progress) can no longer succeed without sitting in front of an auction window, there is a problem.
The thing is, unlike soloing, fast travel, dungeon finders, instancing and the slew of other convenience mechanics added over the years, there are ways (that I've suggested) to offer some convenience at a price without detriment to player who does not want those things. You can't say that about dungeon finders or ez death penalties, that will effect everyone. You can't say it about fast travel, that will effect everyone. People will take the path of least resistance, yet I'm certain if the price of convenience is steep enough, that it won't become the norm. The fact that people immediately turn their nose up to paying a high price to sell on a consignment vendor or to have a player run stall only confirms that belief.
So is anyone really against the idea of a board that can list char names and what stock they have? Its just a list! Youd still have to go and physically exchange money for service/goods. Then you have some convenience but still retain the social interaction.
Also what about vendoring? Selling "low value" or common items to an NPC vendor and them actually be seen as stock by other players to purchase from said NPC? Maybe even make it item type specific. Like sell metal to the blacksmith NPC or Cloth to the Textiles NPC or components to the Alchemy NPC? Or maybe there isnt a restriction but if you sell it to the wrong NPC you get a much lower value for it?
On a side note, if nothing is done then a segment of the population will probably turn to something similar outside the game. I know I would. And I believe that I should be able to experience everything through the game, so why leave out even basic tools just so somebody can create a board on ther internet?
@Mephiles
I got a bit off track/topic in my list and it was mainly referring to "modern conveniences" that have been implemented in MMOs. No, they aren't listed as Pantheon's core tenets, but my point (in my opinion) was that Pantheon's potential as a group-focused social MMO wouldn't be fully realized if all were implemented was my point. Anyway, we can agree to disagree on the AH point - I do understand your reasoning.
And, @Aradune
I get it that systems need to be in place that didn't exist in 1999 to make an MMO more accessible and seem less daunting, but, I would be agreement with Nimryl that this community is obviously passionate and strong here and would be willing to do much of the "hand holding" for the newer age MMO'ers that tried the old school style. So it would be small tweaks versus large overhauls that would be necessary.
As far as the game feeling completely unfamiliar and foreign since it doesn't have all the modern bells and whistles (LFG finders, etc.) to newer or gamers familiar with newer style MMOs, I think that at some level is going to be unavoidable.
I think there should be means of buying and selling that make it easier for players to sell offline or locate an item they may want. I just think it should be geographically limited, and expensive, to encourage player trade. It wouldn't hurt either to have some mchanism to encourage player trade like a player trade area where you can list something for sale while you're there.
I personally like player merchants of some form, not necessarily each player having their own, maybe something like ESO where you can join a large trade guild, the guild can own a vendor and members can sell on it. It just should be expensive.
I don't really care about the implementation. It should just be like most things, there should be help, but not to the point where it trivializes trade and price discovery.
I think some of you are being way too rigid in your thinking that you just are not seeing all the angles. I'm against an AH because it is not a good tool for a healthy economy. I am for something that works like EVE's market system. Are you going to tell me that it is hand holding and easy mode because you don't have to be sitting in Jita all day spamming your wares? I mean come on. Playing the market in EVE does in fact take time, knowledge and skill to make money. And what about interaction? There is a reason it's called market PvP. You are in fact interacting with others especially with competition. What about locations being organic? As a matter of fact it was players that choose where the major trade hubs were. CCP didn't say Jita would be the best deals and largest selections. Players made that choice.
EVE ticks off all the marks of interaction, skill, organic, and knowledge without being archaic or dumbed down.
Aradune said:
So then, I open this question to all of you: What is too far? Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players? Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.? If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
LFG
Assuming open zones, few instances. The LFG tools usually implemented enable people wherever they are in the world to join together for a group to do an instance. It requires fast travel !!! It requires instances !!! So given what I believe is the intent with Pantheon, LFG is going to be more about the zone people are in, and they can lfg the old fashioned way.
Too far would be like the EQ2 battlegrounds where you just sign in and get pulled into the zone when the group fills up. Too far would be Dungeons and Dragons Online. It works for that game. What quest you are on what level what classes are needed etc. But I dont think Pantheon is going to be so tightly scripted.
Auction House
Too far is a world wide auction house. Even with a commission, people simply pay the commission. I think 97% of the transactions nobody cares about a 10, 15, 20% commission. EQ2 had a light and dark auction house. Plus a way to buy at the other one. Find, sort by cost, buy lowest cost. Everything gets driven down to the lowest price. Theres no benefit given to the person who sets up a store, or curates the items that are best or best sellers. It's all just out there searchable.
I loved SW:G and hope I dont become known as the broken record on this one, but they had it right. An auction device for each city so you could put some foods, drinks, noob armor, etc on the vendor. Everything worth more than X credits couldnt go on the auction. Also limited to how many spaces one character could take up. I used to stock noob armor so every morning before work I flew around to all the noob cities and restocked the vendor with what sold the night before while I drank my coffee.
Then people had variously serious businesses. Some had websites where they directed people ingame to go that had all their stuff all outlined. There was buy/sell on the forums. I was a 12 point armor smith and when I had "perfect" armor in stock I would set up my droids in the big cities, I would post on the forums, and I would send emails to my frequent customers. It was a good business and it kept me occupied.
EQ messed up, imo. The bazaar ended up being not so great, and maybe some of that had to do with the sorry state of crafting and itemization in general.
I think there should be offline sales. You hire a clerk to staff your store or whatever.
LOTRO - that was worldwide auction house? That's too far.
Aradune said:Sevens said:So then, I open this question to all of you: What is too far? Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players? Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.? If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
thanks in advance for your feedback and ideas,
-Brad
Bluefyre said:There is a reason it's called market PvP.
Amsai said:So is anyone really against the idea of a board that can list char names and what stock they have? Its just a list! Youd still have to go and physically exchange money for service/goods. Then you have some convenience but still retain the social interaction.
Also what about vendoring? Selling "low value" or common items to an NPC vendor and them actually be seen as stock by other players to purchase from said NPC? Maybe even make it item type specific. Like sell metal to the blacksmith NPC or Cloth to the Textiles NPC or components to the Alchemy NPC? Or maybe there isnt a restriction but if you sell it to the wrong NPC you get a much lower value for it?
On a side note, if nothing is done then a segment of the population will probably turn to something similar outside the game. I know I would. And I believe that I should be able to experience everything through the game, so why leave out even basic tools just so somebody can create a board on ther internet?
Thats acutally not a bad idea Noobie. I only see a few problems with it.
1. The obvious. Getting people to go along with such a system
2. What if you want to sell more than one type of product? Very often if I need to sell a sword, Im sure Id have other things I need to sell as well.
3. What if I simply want to unload low value/common items?
Amsai said:Thats acutally not a bad idea Noobie. I only see a few problems with it.
1. The obvious. Getting people to go along with such a system
2. What if you want to sell more than one type of product? Very often if I need to sell a sword, Im sure Id have other things I need to sell as well.
3. What if I simply want to unload low value/common items?
geatz said:Amsai said:geatz said:Amsai said:@Kalgore
Nice and sensable.
It isn't sensable to completely eliminate an aspect to the game. I mean I don't like crafting and I know a lot of other people don't, so maybe we can keep the crafting trade alive but for those of us that don't want to craft we can just go and purchase our own NPC crafter, that way I can get the weapons I want without having to actually craft or buy from PC crafters. Sounds fair and sensible to me, I mean you can still craft and I can get all the benefits of crafting without doing the work.
Reaching a bit there arent ya?
I can be silly too if ya want?
There has to be some thing that can be done? Do we want to explore that or just say it needs to be such and such way or else?
You don't like trading, I get it, I don't like crafting, but I'm not posting on boards complaining that I don't have the time to reap the benefits of crafting my own gear and then asking that they put a system in place so I can reap the benefits with minimal work. Why can't selling just be an aspect of the game you don't have time for. Keep questing or camping or whatever it is you do and either find someone to sell your gear or vendor trash it if you don't like doing it.
And there are a lot of players who don't like to craft but you really don't hear those players asking for an automated crafting system. Crafting is an activity that requires time just like bartering is an activity that requires time. MMOs of late and of 'yor' have spoiled us with these ebay and fedex features that allow us to just set-it-and-forget-it with our wares and we just swing by to collect the cash.
The EC tunnel is a GREAT example of how there are players who are willing to actually spend the time selling their wares so is it fair to these people that some players don't want to spend this time selling and just want an auction house to do all their work for them? There really isn't anything wrong with players having to sell and trade their items themselves with NO help from the game. It is a QoL feature. Crafting is in pretty much every MMO out and there are MANY players who choose NOT to craft because they don't want to spend the time doing so but they still play the game. IF Pantheon was to not have an auction house and was to not have automated sellers for your goods could you play Pantheon with having the decision to either take the time to sell your goods or just dump them on a vendor or closest player willing to buy them and go on about your business?
This is all just food for thought. I'm not super big into crafting and I at times use an auction house so whatever Pantheon has in store for me I'm going to be there playing how I want to play it with whatever rules it has. I just know that a LOT of good could come from NOT having a global auction house and it's what I'm rooting for.
If we are going to cater to the new gen MMO players then we might as well have automated fighting, traveling, trading, and crafting.
My excuses are:
1. I don't have time to craft or collect resources so I need some system put in that will collect resources for me and craft the items I want instantly since I don't have time or have any interest in crafting.
2. I don't like the fight because it takes too long to level up and I'm a non-violent person, so I think I should be able to hire a NPC to do all my fighting so I don't have to waste my time doing it or I should just be able to buy the levels.
3. I don't like traveling or adventuring due to the huge time sink and the risk of dying. So I think we should put in a system that lets me put in an x/y coordinate and teleports me to that location.
4. I don't like sitting in one area trying to sell the items my items for money to fund my crafting, gearing up, or adventuring. So I think we should put in an automated system where I just press the 'Sell' button on my keyboard and everything I want to sell instantly sells so I don't have to waste my time doing it.
Short of the story is... we can all be closed minded to other people's idea of what makes a game fun for them. For you to tell someone who likes trading that we should eliminate that aspect of the game is the same as telling a crafter, adventure, or power leveler that we are going to automate that process for them. If at heart we are building a community game then we should stick to it. When we start to slip away from that idea we will start heading down a slippery slope and the road back is almost impossible. If someone doesn't want to spend time to advertise their gear and try to make the most money for it, then they should sell their gear to a merchant that will rip them off. Let's not start down the path of convenience and turn this into another game that claims to be different and is exactly the same as everything else.
@Noobiedoo
I appreciate you trying to brainstorm some ideas - and, I've thought about it as well, but the requirement for a trader to be "online" to trade really won't make a difference as it would be nothing more than the old EQ /bazaar at that point and players would simply /afk all night long if it was a requirement to be online to sell sell items.
And, as far as traveling to the Bulletin Board to "Buy" items, it really wouldn't be any different than traveling to an AH. But agreed, it would be different still selling items in person.
That's where I'd say we could actually use players to run consignments shops that had to be there in person. And, the players would take a cut of the items sold - perhaps more/less depending on their success rates. And those players would have to be online to run their shops. There Could be Regional Community Vaults that players could store their goods for consignment for a fee (so it couldn't be abused as an "extra" bank) and those who wanted to play /merchant could pay the vault a fee to retrieve the goods to try to sell while online. Now, how could you get it where the /merchants wouldn't just afk all day? Maybe there's some timer or something that would require player interaction to show they're still present. Not sure how this could be designed, but I'm sure someone could think of an idea.
And like Nimryl had stated earlier in these postings, the merchants can set it up at a guild plot and/or a stall rented/purchased in town. And, the merchant would have to pay a fee to pull the item from the vault. And, once they went offline the had to be returned to the vault (or for the sake not to cheat the system they magically popped back into it). The merchants who also had their own goods would also be able to sell them for full price.
But, for the Bulletin Board, I would want to see basically 3 UI tabs, and the bulletin boards could be located in major cities, or perhaps you could expand it them to houses/guild plots etc. as well:
WTS items - Classified ads/Cragislist style where a player could list everything being sold
WTB Items - Classified ads/Craigslist style where a player could list everything they want to buy
WTT items - Classified ads/Craigslist style where a player could say trading 2 short swords of ykeshas for 1 FBSS
So, it would give players 3 options to sell: EC style for full price, Consignment style by paying a player merchant, and Bulletin Board which would be mainly like a EQ bazaar search list.
I had a few more thoughts as well, but would be curious to what you (and others) think.
First everyone needs to stop saying int ehr eal would you couldnt ETC ETC ETC. this is a video game with magic and monsters in the real world I cant shoot fireball out of my hands either.
Second. LFG I feel nothing more then a /LFG should be enough anyone can see it and if you join the group and they are 299 zones away you better start walking to catch up. NO MAGIC teleportaion to your group unless it is a class ability like in EQ Cleric call of hero which allows you to summon someone to your location every X amount of time. (VERY LONG COOLDOWN). I have never had a problem finding a group in any MMO with just shouting in global LFG I dont even know if I ever had an LFG tag on in any game but some people do. There needs to be some mechanic and it doesnt dumb down the game or take away with what Pantheon wants to be.
Auction houses. A hybrid solution is a perfect way. a Board in each zone with whats for sale a house you have to travel to to get it at a set price witha heavy tax and an area where you can trade freely with no taxes aka a bazaar. If you want to compare it to the real world we are talking Ebay and craigslist when I sell something I list it on both and hope craigslist answers first. You can't expect everyone to love spending hours trying tio find the one item they need so they can go quest or run a zone with a group.
Third if so many people want the players to figure stuff out figure out how to group and how to sell stuff etc etc then let it be true for eveyrthing and ruleset the game like EVE. Let players scam and lie let players gank and grief and have the GMS only step in when a bug is being exploited thats what allowing the players to decide how the game should run should result in.
NoobieDoo said:Bluefyre said:There is a reason it's called market PvP.
I never heard the term 'market pvp' nor have I played Eve. Could you explain it a little more in detail for me please? It sounds sort of like you would need to trade face to face and would not utilize a global automated auction house.
Its called that because you are constantly battling others to buy and sale your wares. You have to out smart your competitors to either reduce their profit margins, or force them out of the market for an item completely. You really don't have to be face to face, but you are correct it isn't a global AH. You can see stuff that is for sale in only your region, but you still have to travel to where it is sold from to pick it up. And if people really want trades to be face to face, you can still have a system where the final transaction is made face to face, but buy and sale is handled by an NPC broker to not have to be online all the time.
Niien said:If we are going to cater to the new gen MMO players then we might as well have automated fighting, traveling, trading, and crafting.
My excuses are:
1. I don't have time to craft or collect resources so I need some system put in that will collect resources for me and craft the items I want instantly since I don't have time or have any interest in crafting.
2. I don't like the fight because it takes too long to level up and I'm a non-violent person, so I think I should be able to hire a NPC to do all my fighting so I don't have to waste my time doing it or I should just be able to buy the levels.
3. I don't like traveling or adventuring due to the huge time sink and the risk of dying. So I think we should put in a system that lets me put in an x/y coordinate and teleports me to that location.
4. I don't like sitting in one area trying to sell the items my items for money to fund my crafting, gearing up, or adventuring. So I think we should put in an automated system where I just press the 'Sell' button on my keyboard and everything I want to sell instantly sells so I don't have to waste my time doing it.
Short of the story is... we can all be closed minded to other people's idea of what makes a game fun for them. For you to tell someone who likes trading that we should eliminate that aspect of the game is the same as telling a crafter, adventure, or power leveler that we are going to automate that process for them. If at heart we are building a community game then we should stick to it. When we start to slip away from that idea we will start heading down a slippery slope and the road back is almost impossible. If someone doesn't want to spend time to advertise their gear and try to make the most money for it, then they should sell their gear to a merchant that will rip them off. Let's not start down the path of convenience and turn this into another game that claims to be different and is exactly the same as everything else.
Do you rate spamming macros for hours to advertise your goods the same as crafting or combat? You can't be serious here. Obviously we feel very different in that regard. But saying just because someone dreads this kind of trading he or she wants automated collecting, crafting and even combat! is just putting up a strawman argument. Nobody asked for something like that. Having the means of buying goods from offline traders is not the downfall of Pantheon's ideals.