Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

DEATH TO THE AUCTION HOUSE!!!

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    • 158 posts
    February 2, 2016 10:16 PM PST

    Krixus said:

    Auction houses suck, I completely agree. Anyone ever play RYL? You could set up your own kiosk with your character and go to bed/work. In EQ, the EC tunnel was a magical place and I hope Pantheon allows players to organically create that kind of experience again. Having an auction house would destroy that. 

     

    Interestingly this is flat out false. I have played serval games that offer both an auction house and player kisoks as you put it and guess what? You still got those organic player created areas where everyone would go in order to sell their rare items.

     

    Once again, I can live without such a feature (I personally like auction houses, generally regional so you still get that region based trade but if there isn't one I imagine I will still get by) but the amount of people on these forums who fail to separate implimentation  from a core idea is very troublesome.


    This post was edited by Mephiles at February 2, 2016 10:16 PM PST
    • 8 posts
    February 2, 2016 11:29 PM PST

    I will pop in here with an opinion.. Although an auction style system saves time.. That is about all it saves.. It does not allow for price points to be based on location.  It does not promote the very important social aspect of the game.  The interaction between those a bit older and those younger..  Example from the past was friendships made from buying bone chips from the newbies, this can open dialog with higher level players for people to ask and learn from someone that has been there and done that.   Being given an item over having to pay for it because a higher level see's that you are new and helps out.  This also promoting his characters reputation and possibly his/her guild and thus gives players something to look forward to.

    It also helps with the gold farming type issues as it takes effort to sell..  The community built just within an area where players sell things is great, it also gives people something to do as they are either getting going in a game night, or a when you are logging off for the night.   Also gives ya something to do when you only have 30 or so minutes.. Go in, chat and auction some items..

    Just my opinion..  The benifits of player based auctions is huge compared to auction houses..

     

    Thanks,  Skezix

    As many will find I am a die hard EQ1 fan, Vanguard as a second.. Nothing as a third, nothing has given me the feeling of community since those days..    As things get more invovled as games go, some things are great and yet some things take away from the community, reputation, etc..


    This post was edited by Skezix at February 2, 2016 11:31 PM PST
    • 724 posts
    February 3, 2016 12:00 AM PST

    I don't want a serverwide (or even worse, cross-server) auctionhouse. But local (to a city or hub) auction houses/trade boards where you can list/search for items would be fine.

    For selling, I'm fine with whatever as long as I don't have to stay in a place to sell, and don't have to spend my time announcing in WTS channels for hours. Yes, I get it, some of you love that...I hate it. If I have items to sell, I want to do that as quickly as possible, because for me that is the least fun activity in games. Alternatively, just make the NPC vendors pay REASONABLE prices for everything, so I can just sell there.

    For buying its similar: I don't want to waste my time running blindly around, having to check one trader after the other. I don't mind running to a trader, but only if I KNOW that I should find the item there. So a trade board (or similar) is mandatory IMO.

    • 671 posts
    February 3, 2016 6:54 AM PST

    Duffy said:

    I for one hope that there is a system in place where I can search for items and also see who has the best price. I remember how horrible the player 'shops' in FF XIV 1.0 were. Nothing fatigued me more than checking out 100 sellers in the trading places to find the item I wanted and then find the one with the best offer again. I am glad they ditched that overly cumbersome way to buy and sell with ARR.

    I don't mind travelling to a player with the best price. But some means to first locate a thing I am interested in and compare the offers would be a plus for me. Like the Telon Exchange or the broker in EQ2.

     

    I hope that^ system is player driven...

    That Players go from town to town and REMEMBER what fletcher, or armorsmith has the best prices, or is always stocked. That players LEARN their environment and make personalized notes and know lore and where NPC are, or where to go to get things.

    I want a system that rewards player who take their time and learn each town or city on their own.

    • 147 posts
    February 3, 2016 9:09 AM PST

    I prefer not having auction houses and letting the players figure out how / where to sell items.

    It comes down to player interaction and if you want a social game or not. Anything that takes away from player interaction is anti-social

    • 1714 posts
    February 3, 2016 1:23 PM PST

    Mephiles said:

    Krixus said:

    Auction houses suck, I completely agree. Anyone ever play RYL? You could set up your own kiosk with your character and go to bed/work. In EQ, the EC tunnel was a magical place and I hope Pantheon allows players to organically create that kind of experience again. Having an auction house would destroy that. 

     

    Interestingly this is flat out false. I have played serval games that offer both an auction house and player kisoks as you put it and guess what? You still got those organic player created areas where everyone would go in order to sell their rare items.

     

    Once again, I can live without such a feature (I personally like auction houses, generally regional so you still get that region based trade but if there isn't one I imagine I will still get by) but the amount of people on these forums who fail to separate implimentation  from a core idea is very troublesome.

     

    Certainly is not false in every experience I've had. I speak for myself. You can do the same. 

     

    It's a really simple and really important concept. Provide as few things as possible which players could otherwise organically create for themselves. If EQ had an auction house, you don't seriously believe the EC tunnel would have been the same place, do you? 

    In the real world, cities grow on rivers, because trade, transportation, health, etc. Let us grow organically as the society on each server establishes it's own identity within the world. Those transport/travel/population hubs will manifest themselves from the ground up and it will engender a much stronger since of community than some auction house. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at February 3, 2016 1:28 PM PST
    • 428 posts
    February 3, 2016 1:25 PM PST

    I like the Auction house but it should be taxed heavily  (on the buyer).  It should also allow you to go to a players house and get it Tax free for cheaper or allow you to contact the seller and haggle.  I would hate getting a group together then realize I forgot about all my needed potions and have to spend an hour tracking done people to buy them from. 

    • 1714 posts
    February 3, 2016 1:29 PM PST

    Kalgore said:

    I like the Auction house but it should be taxed heavily  (on the buyer).  It should also allow you to go to a players house and get it Tax free for cheaper or allow you to contact the seller and haggle.  I would hate getting a group together then realize I forgot about all my needed potions and have to spend an hour tracking done people to buy them from. 

     

    So you'd rather automagically just have it delivered to your mailbox? Gag. Ez mode. 

    • 109 posts
    February 3, 2016 1:30 PM PST

    I'd like to see a place like the EC Tunnel, seller needs to be online AND active to make a sale. However if the seller chooses to go /afk he can and the buyer can right click the seller and choose to see what the seller has in stock for sale.

    • 109 posts
    February 3, 2016 1:31 PM PST

    Kalgore said:

    I like the Auction house but it should be taxed heavily  (on the buyer).  It should also allow you to go to a players house and get it Tax free for cheaper or allow you to contact the seller and haggle.  I would hate getting a group together then realize I forgot about all my needed potions and have to spend an hour tracking done people to buy them from. 

     

    Or we can just get the hell away from needing potions at all! God I hate pots.

    • 428 posts
    February 3, 2016 1:32 PM PST

    Noooooooo never get rid of potions  the greatest pain int he ass an MMO can add haha 

    • 132 posts
    February 3, 2016 10:24 PM PST

    I don't have a lot to say other than EQ1 and EC Tunnel did fine 17 years ago and works just as well in 2016 on TLP servers. 

    Sell player to player with no "vendor" / auction house help. Selling player to player boosts community. Auction houses should not be in the game. 

    You could have a server wide /trade /auction channel that you have to manually join if you want to see auctions. 

    My Opinion. 

     

    • 126 posts
    February 4, 2016 2:04 AM PST

    While I still hope that there will be a board/broker/exchange/auctionhouse system in place... but in case there is none of this kind, I hope that sellers are at least not required to be online to sell their wares. So that people from non US timezones still have the same pool of people to buy from like you US guys and girls. The more of something is thrown to the market, the cheaper it will be, but since people like me will never, ever play at US prime time because of blissfully snoring in bed, I see us paying more for less to chose from. And I just don't see localized servers right now (and am still undecided if I'd like to have them. Probably not, because I'd favor a RP server splitting from PvE).

    I know Pantheon will be more than a reheated Everquest or Vanguard - I for sure hope it will favor Vanguard's approach more, also in regard to buying and selling stuff... but right now I feel outnumbered :D

    • 793 posts
    February 4, 2016 7:19 AM PST

    Some great ideas here.

    I like the trade board idea, so you can search for items, but still have to contact the seller to deal. I liked the EC selling early on when the servers were 400-600 people typically. but as servers grew and the population swelled, trying to follow /shouts in EC was annoying and frustrating.

    I think it would also be cool to have a "bazaar" or "market" area designated in bigger cities where the EC experience would be enticed. EC only became EC because of it's layout and local. If the players had a designated place to congragate, and could stand in stall areas, making locating someone easier. (As a newb you might not know where the Swashbuckler is, saying "Stall 3-A" is much easier to find), and a stalls could just be arbitrary spaces for locating.

    You have these in a few different cities, making it a "place to go" when you are traveling in an area.

     

     

     

    • 148 posts
    February 4, 2016 9:00 AM PST

    I have to say the games where a player can just setup shop anywhere are terrible. I loved the EC tunnel back in the day and was a bit annoyed when they implemented the bazaar, but eventually got used to it. Auction houses as a whole allow for more play time as it drastically cuts down the time spent trying to buy / sell items, however as others have said it does so at the cost of some community building.

    I wouldn't be against regional bazaar type areas, or even a system where you can say that you have an item for sale but then the buyer needs to message and track you down. 

    • 130 posts
    February 4, 2016 9:09 AM PST

    I've spent a few days thinking about this.

    While I think logging into P1999 is a magical experience bartering with sellers and buyers eventually the bazaar came out as a thing of convenience.

    However, the bazaar failed as much as it succeded.

    If there is an auction house type system it should be one based on locality instead of a central point for the entire server.

    If I were to incorporate a bazaar / auction house type system it would be with a trading post system and each starting city would have one, or say an outpost to the planes, or underworlds, or whatever.

    Nonetheless, I think a system of sorts should be done with localities in mind versus a server-wide one, or having a zone just for trading (i.e., EQ's bazaar).

    Naturally, there's always the option of saying to hell with it all and you end up with player-driven choices and you end up with something reminiscent of EQ's EC tunnel & GFay trading which IMO, is OK.

    • 106 posts
    February 4, 2016 11:36 AM PST
    I'm torn

    I had a love hate relationship with the EC tunnel. Could get some good deals but didn't always have the time to sit there and wait for the item I wanted to arrive and then be the first to jump on it. I did like the feel of the environment though.

    If this has been said already I'm sorry. Why not have a zone dedicated to a market or bazzar. Have a casino of sorts (play cards, slots or something that is related to the game), have banks, merchants, trade skill posts and then maybe you could set up a short term shop. You can call out what you have or what you want and if you have to eat dinner you can set up a shop that has a max time limit, say, 1 hour. Come back and go back to shouting out what you have/want.

    I don't want to travel from city to city looking for an item. I'd rather run to one location even if it's just like the EC tunnel
    • 158 posts
    February 4, 2016 11:37 AM PST

    Krixus said:

    Mephiles said:

    Krixus said:

    Auction houses suck, I completely agree. Anyone ever play RYL? You could set up your own kiosk with your character and go to bed/work. In EQ, the EC tunnel was a magical place and I hope Pantheon allows players to organically create that kind of experience again. Having an auction house would destroy that. 

     

    Interestingly this is flat out false. I have played serval games that offer both an auction house and player kisoks as you put it and guess what? You still got those organic player created areas where everyone would go in order to sell their rare items.

     

    Once again, I can live without such a feature (I personally like auction houses, generally regional so you still get that region based trade but if there isn't one I imagine I will still get by) but the amount of people on these forums who fail to separate implimentation  from a core idea is very troublesome.

     

    Certainly is not false in every experience I've had. I speak for myself. You can do the same. 

     

    It's a really simple and really important concept. Provide as few things as possible which players could otherwise organically create for themselves. If EQ had an auction house, you don't seriously believe the EC tunnel would have been the same place, do you? 

    In the real world, cities grow on rivers, because trade, transportation, health, etc. Let us grow organically as the society on each server establishes it's own identity within the world. Those transport/travel/population hubs will manifest themselves from the ground up and it will engender a much stronger since of community than some auction house. 

     

    The point is that having an auction house does not destroy player trade as a rule. Auction houses may encourage moving away from an individual person-to-person trade environment but the existance of one does not on its own do that.

     

    Also I feel like your example actually is saying sortof the opposite of what you mean. As you said, things developed around the river organically which technically is the same as the auction house. Players could all avoid auction houses and just shout to trade with people in most games that have them but that is not as popular (thought it does tend to continue just not as much) why? Because the auction house in that case is the river that players flock to as it provides benefits. Put benefits in other areas and you will see players go there too (for example offering certain items that are not tradeable on the auction house and you will see a player market emerge right along side an auction house).

     

    Again, I can get by either way (not a fan of trading auction house or not, as in I don't enjoy it but do feel it is important) but don't support the idea that auction house flat out = no person to person market.


    This post was edited by Mephiles at February 4, 2016 11:53 AM PST
    • 1714 posts
    February 4, 2016 12:09 PM PST

    Mephiles said:

    Krixus said:

    Mephiles said:

    Krixus said:

    Auction houses suck, I completely agree. Anyone ever play RYL? You could set up your own kiosk with your character and go to bed/work. In EQ, the EC tunnel was a magical place and I hope Pantheon allows players to organically create that kind of experience again. Having an auction house would destroy that. 

     

    Interestingly this is flat out false. I have played serval games that offer both an auction house and player kisoks as you put it and guess what? You still got those organic player created areas where everyone would go in order to sell their rare items.

     

    Once again, I can live without such a feature (I personally like auction houses, generally regional so you still get that region based trade but if there isn't one I imagine I will still get by) but the amount of people on these forums who fail to separate implimentation  from a core idea is very troublesome.

     

    Certainly is not false in every experience I've had. I speak for myself. You can do the same. 

     

    It's a really simple and really important concept. Provide as few things as possible which players could otherwise organically create for themselves. If EQ had an auction house, you don't seriously believe the EC tunnel would have been the same place, do you? 

    In the real world, cities grow on rivers, because trade, transportation, health, etc. Let us grow organically as the society on each server establishes it's own identity within the world. Those transport/travel/population hubs will manifest themselves from the ground up and it will engender a much stronger since of community than some auction house. 

     

    The point is that having an auction house does not destroy player trade as a rule. Auction houses may encourage moving away from an individual person-to-person trade environment but the existance of one does not on its own do that.

     

    Also I feel like your example actually is saying sortof the opposite of what you mean. As you said, things developed around the river organically which technically is the same as the auction house. Players could all avoid auction houses and just shout to trade with people in most games that have them but that is not as popular (thought it does tend to continue just not as much) why? Because the auction house in that case is the river that players flock to as it provides benefits. Put benefits in other areas and you will see players go there too (for example offering certain items that are not tradeable on the auction house and you will see a player market emerge right along side an auction house).

     

    Again, I can get by either way (not a fan of trading auction house or not, as in I don't enjoy it but do feel it is important) but don't support the idea that auction house flat out = no person to person market.

     

    I am dismayed that you have the completely opposite interpretation of my river analogy. Slapping an acution house into the game is the complete opposite of my example. That is not organic. That is not players choosing where to meet based on the infrastructure and social dynamics in the world. That is a false external layer being set on the game. That is not organic. That is fake. I really don't understand why you don't understand. The EC tunnel is, again, the perfect example. Players themselves formed that area into something completely different than it was originally designed, because Freeport was a gateway city and the tunnel connected 2 heavily traveled zones. You saying that my example is opposite of my point is horrible wrong. 

    • 26 posts
    February 4, 2016 1:05 PM PST

    I think a hybrid approach of EC tunnel and traditional auction house could work well.

    I really enjoy the idea of being in a zone where people are hanging out and peddling their wares, buffing noobs, etc.  However, nobody likes parsing auction chat spam to find an item to buy.  It's inefficient, it's annoying, and it's one of the dated concepts we shouldn't be looking to bring back from EQ.

    What I would like to see instead is the ability to list items for sale in a traditional auction house UI.  Anybody in the same region (zone, adjacent zones?) would be able to use that same auction house UI to search for items for sale by nearby players.  This solves the inefficiency / chat spam problem while still retaining the potential for cool emergent player behavior.  It could also create some interesting regional markets that enterprising players could take advantage of.

    • 158 posts
    February 5, 2016 11:42 AM PST

    Krixus said:

     

    I am dismayed that you have the completely opposite interpretation of my river analogy. Slapping an acution house into the game is the complete opposite of my example. That is not organic. That is not players choosing where to meet based on the infrastructure and social dynamics in the world. That is a false external layer being set on the game. That is not organic. That is fake. I really don't understand why you don't understand. The EC tunnel is, again, the perfect example. Players themselves formed that area into something completely different than it was originally designed, because Freeport was a gateway city and the tunnel connected 2 heavily traveled zones. You saying that my example is opposite of my point is horrible wrong. 

     

    How is the auction house not like a river? People don't make the river, it is a resource that they flock to to make use of it. An acution house is the same thing, a resource that they flock to to make use of its trade features. Why did players choose the tunnel to do their business? I can't speak for that because I didn't play everquest but I can speak for why people formed a similar player market in ffxi called "rolomart" (labeled such because all of the players wanting to sell their stuff would camp out at the zone line of rolanberry fields). There was an auction house in ffxi and yet there was a large player market where people would set up to sell specialty goods. Why? because there were items that could not be sold on the AH and, the auction house had a fee for use that got progressively higher the more you wanted to sell an item for. So some of the best crafters on your server would set up permanent shop in rolomart to sell their high quality gear and items free of taxes. Again, river.

     

    Shall I assume there is a similar reason for the EQ tunnel? Perhaps there is a bank near by, or a tax in some area or the tunnel was an area highly trafficed by players for some other reason? All of that is equivalent to an auction house, you just don't like the auction house. An auction house is no more artifical than having a capital city (players will naturally flock there, river) or other infrastructure such as banks, market npcs, a large amount of resources, ease of travel (such as boats, portals, mount rental service, whatever). It all works the same way. The main reason you seem to have a problem with an auction house is not that it is truly artificial or that it isn't infrastructure for players to organically form around (do not forget that most games offer alternatives to using the auction house for trade and thus it is player choice that drives them to the auction house) but that you want a structure of market that is more controled by players than an auction house is.


    This post was edited by Mephiles at February 5, 2016 11:47 AM PST
    • 154 posts
    February 5, 2016 11:54 AM PST

    I'm 100% in with no auction house.

    • 1714 posts
    February 5, 2016 12:36 PM PST

    Mephiles said:

    Krixus said:

     

    I am dismayed that you have the completely opposite interpretation of my river analogy. Slapping an acution house into the game is the complete opposite of my example. That is not organic. That is not players choosing where to meet based on the infrastructure and social dynamics in the world. That is a false external layer being set on the game. That is not organic. That is fake. I really don't understand why you don't understand. The EC tunnel is, again, the perfect example. Players themselves formed that area into something completely different than it was originally designed, because Freeport was a gateway city and the tunnel connected 2 heavily traveled zones. You saying that my example is opposite of my point is horrible wrong. 

     

    How is the auction house not like a river? People don't make the river, it is a resource that they flock to to make use of it. An acution house is the same thing, a resource that they flock to to make use of its trade features. Why did players choose the tunnel to do their business? I can't speak for that because I didn't play everquest but I can speak for why people formed a similar player market in ffxi called "rolomart" (labeled such because all of the players wanting to sell their stuff would camp out at the zone line of rolanberry fields). There was an auction house in ffxi and yet there was a large player market where people would set up to sell specialty goods. Why? because there were items that could not be sold on the AH and, the auction house had a fee for use that got progressively higher the more you wanted to sell an item for. So some of the best crafters on your server would set up permanent shop in rolomart to sell their high quality gear and items free of taxes. Again, river.

     

    Shall I assume there is a similar reason for the EQ tunnel? Perhaps there is a bank near by, or a tax in some area or the tunnel was an area highly trafficed by players for some other reason? All of that is equivalent to an auction house, you just don't like the auction house. An auction house is no more artifical than having a capital city (players will naturally flock there, river) or other infrastructure such as banks, market npcs, a large amount of resources, ease of travel (such as boats, portals, mount rental service, whatever). It all works the same way. The main reason you seem to have a problem with an auction house is not that it is truly artificial or that it isn't infrastructure for players to organically form around (do not forget that most games offer alternatives to using the auction house for trade and thus it is player choice that drives them to the auction house) but that you want a structure of market that is more controled by players than an auction house is.

     

    People CHOOSE where to build their cities. People CHOSE the EC tunnel, because it was a population and travel hub. Freeport and the connection between NRO and EC is the river, not the freakin auction house. Good grief. 

    • 105 posts
    February 5, 2016 3:15 PM PST

    My argumet against auction houses is more that makes it way too easy to determine the price of a thing. No player should ever know with absolute certainty what the best price is for any item. And no system should exist that puts every seller of an item in competition with every other seller of the same item. It leads to sky high prices for items where the demand is ever so slightly higher than supply, and crashing prices for anything where supply is ever so slightly higher than demand. That's not a real market, it's a teeter-tooter where it's never even possible to arrive at the best rate for items to come into the world because the margin between too fast and too slow is razor thin.

    • 158 posts
    February 5, 2016 9:29 PM PST

    Krixus said:

     

    People CHOOSE where to build their cities. People CHOSE the EC tunnel, because it was a population and travel hub. Freeport and the connection between NRO and EC is the river, not the freakin auction house. Good grief. 

     

    I didn't say that the tunnel was an auction house, im saying that the tunnel existed where it was for the same reasons why people go to an auction house.People CHOOSE to use the auction house in the place it is located if doing so is convenient. It is the same exact thing, people CHOOSE what makes sense and if it makes sense to use an auction house they will do so and if it does not then they will not, if using the auction house AND having a player market makes sense then it will happen.

     

    Again, as you said EC tunnel, why? Travel hub. Why is it a travel hub? Was it because players made it so? Or was that how the world was designed? It is the same thing. Players will form around the tools developers give them, you just seem to dislike the directness of an auction house even though players flocking to it is not mandatory but is organic because people will naturally flock to what they percieve to be best. It is no more artificial that players form around an auction house than it is for them to form around a travel hub, nor does either feature inherently mean that other features will be irrelevant (for example you might think that a travel hub would be a gaurantee'd player hot-spot if you could get to all corners of the world from there but you might be surpised if there special benefits to traveling other ways). I gaurantee you that every organic player function you can think of came about as a result of something that the developers placed in the game.