I'm wondering how quick travel will work in this game. Why? Because I think quick travel is one of the biggest things that help make a game world feel real.
For me, Planes of Power destroyed Norrath. Suddenly it didn't matter where you were from, everyone was everywhere. Want to make a human monk and level them in Butcherblock? It wasn't a four hour trip (if you didn't die), it took as long as two loading screens. Suddenly this huge wonderful world, was just a video game.
I'm not saying that travel has to be completely dangerous, but make it time consuming. If I cross a continent by foot, it should feel like a long journey.
If there are boats, don't put translocators there. Make me ride the boat. Make me feel the pain if I go to get a beer and come back and I missed the dock and I'm heading back to Freeport. Just also, put someone on the boat steering it. Cause a boat that just follows the path... it's kinda creepy.
I just hope this world feels huge, and the distance makes people decide that it is better to stay where you are and get decent exp, than move every 20 minutes to go just a little bit faster.
Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense, it's late and I was just waiting on a ship. :)
I see all your points. I also hope that the world will feel huge and that there are not traveling beacons everywhere which brings you everywhere. That said, I still hope that people from all over the Pantheon world won't get discouraged from joining groups because they fear they'll travel an hour and the group disbands 5 minutes later. Life happens...
I'd like to see something like Vanguard's fast travel options. You still had to travel some time to reach them, but then they took you at least to another continent, where you still had to travel some time to your destiny.
Talking about EQ, it sure changed the way the game world felt when PoP was introduced (although the fire pots room existed before PoP already iirc). No longer was it neccessary to take long waits for the boats between continents. But lets be honest: Even with all those ports available, it can still take quite a while to get where you want. I always liked the Frontier Mountains in Kunark. I would go there with my mid level characters, since its a great place to level up (and a Hot zone with exp bonus.. ;). To get there, you have several options, but all of them require a run of at least 10-15 minutes (less if you got a SoW first). Its the same for many of the EQ zones: You can jump between the cities and hubs quickly, but other zones do not have instant access. That's good enough for me. If getting somewhere requires taking a boat, or a griffon or whatever, that's fine too, but I don't like excessively long travel times.
That said, iirc it was mentioned that Pantheon might have a system where you can enable your character to travel with your group/friends: If your friends go to another zone while you're logged off, your character will move with them and when you next log in, you are there and don't have to travel all the way. While this might help, I find it problematic, because you may miss on the interesting travel and may not know your way around that well (as if you had gone the route yourself).
Make quick travel available, just make it make sense, implement it into the lore, and don't over do it. Have certain classes be able to TP just like in EQ1 (Wizards/Druids). Give an incentive for players to ask the community for a port for a donation rather than using other means. Other means could be to have a guild of wizard NPCs that charge expensive subscription fees to use their teleporting services. Design the game so that teleporting is an option, but in some cases you're just better off running across the world :) . If it takes you 30 minutes to farm enough gold to pay for a TP, and it will take 15 minutes to travel to your destination, why not run?
To me 15 minutes is far too short. If you want to go to the other side of the world, Wiz/Dru ports excluded, it should be a trip that you have to dedicate an hour or two. I'm not talking about a couple zones... I'm talking end to end on the continent. This trip time can be shortened if you get a Wiz/Dru portal. I would also be Ok if there were a few other options, such as Shaman's getting a spirit walk or something of that nature.
But tbh I think they had travel about perfect through Luclin. There were shortcuts, but if you went to Qeynos, it was a trip that you planned for. You bought extra spells so you didn't have to make that run again sometime soon. If you leveled up in one area, chances are you didn't do a different dungeon because to keep swapping back and forth would take more time than to just level up in one area even if the exp wasn't as good.
I don't like the idea of teleporting to your group unless you are in the same zone as them. At least make the guy run TO the zone. The only thing I might consider (and I'm sure it would be exploited in some way) is if you made a concession for raids to help facilitate their organization..
How big is the world? Where do people start? Are people separated by races or classes? Choice of religion? How quickly will people in those circumstances want to get together with their friends?
I prefer not to have everything instantly available, but you have to face reality that people are going to want to play with their friends or family members pretty quickly. And if they dont have a quick way to get to them, they will complain.
If the world is sufficienty big, and organized in such a way that people can start together, maybe there's no "fast travel" for a while.
I think sometimes we assume that the way things unfolded in our first game, be it UO or EQ, was the way it was designed, as opposed to accidental. I think you need some accidents, which enable players to come up with solutions (i.e. Druid Airways, now porting to Gfay! Please fasten your seatbelds and enjoy the ride!) I think if you script things too tightly you lose the ability for players to be creative. But how do you do that in a time where we all know what other games do?
The Vanguard concepts were interesting but eventually public pressure brought the port monuments just like every other game has.
Fast travel, for me, is more desirable at the end of the day than the beginning. Getting to your destination at the start of your day is or can be part of the fun of your day. But after it's all over and you've stayed up far too late and now you just want nothing more than to log out and go to bed, getting back to a city or other point of civilization quickly is more important.
I do agree that PoP ruined travel in EQ1 giving everyone that sense of entitlement to instant gratification. No more was travel a decision that required planning.
I think Travel is a big part of MMO's. I like the idea of having the ability to transport using spells that either you have or someone else has. I also liked in EQ that different zones had different types of teleport areas. Some of the zones had Wizzard Stones that only Wizzards could port into. Other zones had the Druid Rings, but zones normally didn't have the same portals. I think this made people talk and communicate and cordinate things. It also made the teleport portals a community meeting place, so you didn't have people just congregating inside the big cities.
I also like the idea of being able to teleport to your friends and saving time as well, but I think you miss out on alot by having this. I am not sure if Pantheon will have Zone Bosses, but part of the fun of zone bosses was being able to mobilize quick and engage the Boss before others could get there. I think being able to port directly to a person takes away from this part of the game. I think I read call of the Hero spell is coming back in some form or function. I think this is a better option then porting to a friend.
Recent MMO's are all about getting to where you need to be as quck as they can get you there. What they are missing though is the Journey because the Journey is what makes all the memories.
*PoP made it feel like zones are just a "click away" rather than the immersive feel of travel. To me the journey is half the fun and I feel that alot of games and mmo's miss this, or never do it well... Even in general P&P games travel is usually kinda skipped upon because it can seem boring. But I'm a strong believer that if traveling through a world is done right.. it can make the game feel like a real adventure. How poor would have the Lord of the Rings been if they had just flown straight to mount doom using the Eagles? (like in that famous "how lotr's should have ended" video.) Traveling can also help you encounter things you never expected.. or meet/make new friends... imagine a rapid flowing river and helping each other across.. or a nasty enemy guarding that infamous bridge crossing... Travel can be used to really create a real amazing experience.. and help make places in the game rememberable. <3
What's a fantasy game without an adventure?
Journeys:
do you really wanna skip it?
To me that's what RPG's are truely all about... adventure. When you think about a role play game.. thats really what you want. If you think about it.. it all starts with roleplay and the first experiences of it is essentially playing "let's pretend" as a child and playing that part in the adventure/story. Pretending your off on a magical adventure... or journeying with your friends to slay a dragon.. It's all about the excitement that lurked around every corner and the people you experience that with. P&P/rule sets generally come into play to set a standard for the adventure.. to stop arguments; hence D&D etc sprouting up. For me.. the sense of adventure is truely what it's all about.
* Edited due to misread. Apologies @OP.
Travel should be meaningful. Why?
1) Helps to create depth to the game world (A large world can be very immersive).
2) Allows the developers to reward explorers (Perhaps a rare silk or interesting dungeon is located a fairly decent distance from the nearest city or outpost).
3) Druid Rings and Wizard Spires were fantastic, would love to see that implemented in Pantheon (This gives those two classes a valuable utility and supports class interdependence).
4) Allows players to feel like they have put some distance between themselves and others within the game (Especially important if there will be a PvP server).
5) Encourages grouping and social activity (Perhaps you cannot get somewhere solo as it is too dangerous).
6) Gives importance to other types of class interdependent gameplay (Spells like Spirit of the Wolf, Selo's, Egress and things like a Pally Epic Mount).
7) Supports the in-game economy (Allows classes to sell their porting abilities or buffs or crafted items to others).
Wigg said:I read that they will have player teleporting when in a group, so you can summon others to your location. (Or read Sarim's last paragraph)
Ah interesting. Also what Sarim wrote. I don't know what to think about that (what Sarim said). What if my friends decide to level someplace else or don't show up at all? Plans can change and then I am stuck in zone x and have to travel back anyway.
And I guess if travel will take too much time for someone's taste, this mechanics will be exploited. Parking chars just for a convenient port or something else. So I hope to see at least some shortcuts to travel. I am really biased in that regard :)
Romulus said:How big is the world? Where do people start? Are people separated by races or classes? Choice of religion? How quickly will people in those circumstances want to get together with their friends?
I prefer not to have everything instantly available, but you have to face reality that people are going to want to play with their friends or family members pretty quickly. And if they dont have a quick way to get to them, they will complain.
I think a good work around for playing with friends would be the ability to choose a starting city regardless of your race. You start your story as an outsider in that city or a human raised by elves, etc. This way you don't have to have early fast travel options and get to play with friends & family.
Totally agree, in EQ1 I was a Troll Shaman and I had to run from Innothule Swamp to The Desert of South Ro. Make it safely through that zone to Oasis of Marr to North Ro. Then Travel the Tunnel to East Commonlands and Freeport. Follow the wall outside and to the East and there you find a secret hidden tunnel that let you into Freeport but down by the Dock. The you waited staying hidden until the top of the Hour and a Boat arrived. Take the boat to Ocean of Tears and get off to fight Cyclops on an island or keep riding it until you arrive in Butcher Block Mountains. Then transverse the to Dagnors Caldron and run to The zone your group was at Unrest. Travel became part of the adventure and lord forbid you didn't hire someone to Bind you on the new continent because if you died the trip was to be repeated. Made you plan the next day too...Going on a Fear raid? Get to Feerott get to the secret cave and log. Miss those days, traveling at low level through Kithicor and hoping you got through before Night.
What's a fantasy game without an adventure?
Journeys:
do you really wanna skip it?
And, Abacda, I played an Iksar an you are spot-on with your description of travel.
Traveling from point A to point B can and should be part of the adventure. I still remember hopping on boats in The Overthere. Fast travel can be convenient, sure. But I don't have fond memories of fast traveling anywhere.
If the world is designed right travel becomes almost invisible until you want to traverse large distances. If the game becomes more about playing and less about leveling as fast as you can, shouldn't we actually enjoy the time spent doing non-leveling activities like traveling?
EQ was one of the last games I played and didn't feel the rush to reach max level yesterday. I sure hope that is part of the magic that this game will recreate.
As I said in my EQ opus, part of what made EQ so amazing was that the devs managed to make playing the game itself the quest. Getting from A to B WAS a quest. And because it was organic, something induced and created soley by the player, it was genuinely rewarding and meaningful. Having long(er) travel times also helps against inflation. I agree 100% with xtnpd's image above. The ADVENTURE is why I'm here.
I am a big fan of quick travel being limited to classes that have a teleport only. I loved EQ travel pre PoP and I think Vanguard had the best travel system before they initiated the portal network.
Walking < Running < SoW < Mount < Flying Mount <= Boat.
I love the idea of having to take boats inbetween continents. I love the idea of player boats (VG boats). My buddy and I found an Artifacer that was making boats and we were able to supply him with enough lumber to make us one of the first boats on the server. I really wanted to see water travel be flushed out with intercontinental travel on player boats as well as open water areas that have not been explored.
Traveling was about making a difficult journey worth it, about making friends on the boat, and making friends with Wizards / Druids (EQ) that would port you places.
am385 said:I am a big fan of quick travel being limited to classes that have a teleport only. I loved EQ travel pre PoP and I think Vanguard had the best travel system before they initiated the portal network.
Walking < Running < SoW < Mount < Flying Mount <= Boat.
I love the idea of having to take boats inbetween continents. I love the idea of player boats (VG boats). My buddy and I found an Artifacer that was making boats and we were able to supply him with enough lumber to make us one of the first boats on the server. I really wanted to see water travel be flushed out with intercontinental travel on player boats as well as open water areas that have not been explored.
Traveling was about making a difficult journey worth it, about making friends on the boat, and making friends with Wizards / Druids (EQ) that would port you places.
It's a amazing how a spell like sow promoted class interdependency.
I've noticed that most people say they don't want travel to take forever cause they don't want to have to log out for whatever reason and have to run a long ways to get somewhere safe. But then again those same people hate new-age MMOs that incorporate these fast travel mechanics. Honestly I get it, real life happens and you have to have that as a priority. However, I don't believe the game should suffer for the problems of the individual. Yeah, at some point or another we'll all be screwed by a long travel time, I know(if they choose to leave easy-travel out) I will definitely get pissed off a very large number of times because of it, but I still want travel to be an important element in the game regardless because that is what will make the game better in the end whether or not most of us admit it or even know it.
Fast travel among many other quality of life "improvements" are what make virtual worlds feel like a video game, and ultimately ruin them.
Happytrees said: However, I don't believe the game should suffer for the problems of the individual.
But that's the problem. They don't.. it's the people with no time that are dictating games nowadays (majority). Like you said.. I don't have much time either but, I would certainly not want a game to focus around me if someone else spends more time in the game or effects the games immersion/gameplay in a negative way. Sorry but I'm not that selfish.. however others are; "Entitlement" is the bane of most mmorpgs nowadays; maybe even games as a whole. If developers keep catering to these people.. it'll all be easy/too casual/self centric(no real team work mechanics as people don't have time for that) and always flop after the first/second year (because people don't realise that if you get what you want instantly.. you get bored instantly) with the developers left wondering "Where did we go wrong??" as they ponder off to another game that can give them that "quick fix" again.
Hand on heart I can honestly say that Pantheon is doing the right thing by not catering to these people (myself included).
At the end of the day, MMO's should also be about bringing people together not spliting them apart with casual self-centric content. Which makes no sense what-so-ever as there are single player games for that. mmorpgs = adventuring together. <3
Getting the balance right will probably anger some people on both sides but is one of those necessary things that will set Pantheon apart. There are plenty of games out there where you can get going the moment you log in, accomplish some things, then log out 45 minutes later. You dont need to recreate this for the 13th time.
A certain amount of forced interaction can be rewarding and also healthy for the longevity of the game. When I quit EQ there were still people playing I had grouped with in expansions 10 or 12 years ago, who I remembered and who remembered me even though our paths diverged etc. A couple of these were guild groups but one friendship in particular was purely random. He was there and we needed a tank to continue.
What really sucks are the long threads whining about how her baby needed to be fed and she missed the boat and couldnt get to the group and then she had to log out all frustrated and didnt accomplish anything or how he only has 15 minutes to play before he needs to help his wife with the groceries so he needs to be able to get a group, complete the instance, and loot the top item in the game within that timeframe. We know how this goes. Virtually every forum has these posts on them for days and developers capitulate.
Romulus said:What really sucks are the long threads whining about how her baby needed to be fed and she missed the boat and couldnt get to the group and then she had to log out all frustrated and didnt accomplish anything or how he only has 15 minutes to play before he needs to help his wife with the groceries so he needs to be able to get a group, complete the instance, and loot the top item in the game within that timeframe. We know how this goes. Virtually every forum has these posts on them for days and developers capitulate.
Such scenarios are understandable, they sometimes happened even back in the early days of EQ. Real Life gets us all once in a while. However while it may take some work and possibly a favor here and there, cutting out a block of a couple hours for game time can be done. I know couples, single parents, multi-job folks... and whether for gaming or other activities, they find ways to set aside time and handle interruptions. Maybe not always as much as they'd like but it can be done. For people who don't want to put in that effort or the few unfortunate who truly are in a situation of no real time for themselves, this is simply not the game for them. There's dozens of other MMOs that cater to quick, sporadic gameplay. I play them sometimes. But there ought to be one or two out there for those of us who can and want to really invest our time in a single game, instead of grinding through a new MMO every few months.
Sarim said:That said, iirc it was mentioned that Pantheon might have a system where you can enable your character to travel with your group/friends: If your friends go to another zone while you're logged off, your character will move with them and when you next log in, you are there and don't have to travel all the way. While this might help, I find it problematic, because you may miss on the interesting travel and may not know your way around that well (as if you had gone the route yourself).
Something like this would be useful if done right and is a compromise I could live with. A player can choose the option but it comes at a cost that will need to be weighed, similar to building up enough money for a teleport. Of course if you're lazy and stay logged off too long, you might log in only to find yourself in some remote place with nobody around. :3
OtakuMegane said:Romulus said:What really sucks are the long threads whining about how her baby needed to be fed and she missed the boat and couldnt get to the group and then she had to log out all frustrated and didnt accomplish anything or how he only has 15 minutes to play before he needs to help his wife with the groceries so he needs to be able to get a group, complete the instance, and loot the top item in the game within that timeframe. We know how this goes. Virtually every forum has these posts on them for days and developers capitulate.
Such scenarios are understandable, they sometimes happened even back in the early days of EQ. Real Life gets us all once in a while. However while it may take some work and possibly a favor here and there, cutting out a block of a couple hours for game time can be done. I know couples, single parents, multi-job folks... and whether for gaming or other activities, they find ways to set aside time and handle interruptions. Maybe not always as much as they'd like but it can be done. For people who don't want to put in that effort or the few unfortunate who truly are in a situation of no real time for themselves, this is simply not the game for them. There's dozens of other MMOs that cater to quick, sporadic gameplay. I play them sometimes. But there ought to be one or two out there for those of us who can and want to really invest our time in a single game, instead of grinding through a new MMO every few months.
Sarim said:That said, iirc it was mentioned that Pantheon might have a system where you can enable your character to travel with your group/friends: If your friends go to another zone while you're logged off, your character will move with them and when you next log in, you are there and don't have to travel all the way. While this might help, I find it problematic, because you may miss on the interesting travel and may not know your way around that well (as if you had gone the route yourself).
Something like this would be useful if done right and is a compromise I could live with. A player can choose the option but it comes at a cost that will need to be weighed, similar to building up enough money for a teleport. Of course if you're lazy and stay logged off too long, you might log in only to find yourself in some remote place with nobody around. :3
Surprise surprise, I'm not a fan of this kind of thing. Perhaps there's an implementation I can't think of, but I see people logging out to avoid danger while someone like a Monk or Dreadlord moves the whole group while they're offline. In addition, to me this feel similar to the mentoring mechanic discussed in another thread. Is it really necessary to the game for us to suspend our disbelief for this? People should move their own chars through the world, with everything that comes with that. We don't allow botting, EQ even had rules against multiple people playing one toon, why allow this? I realize I'm well towards the hardcore end of the spectrum. /shrug
I can't find it, but Kilsin said multiple times that also people with limited time (like two hours a day) can and will accomplish somehing in Pantheon. And I for one am glad for that, because I am married to a non gamer, and work 9 hours a day. Please don't shove people like me who can't play 8-12 hours a day off to another game which caters to "quick and sporadic" gameplay. We don't want "quick and sporadic gameplay", otherwise we would be in THAT games.
Extremes are always bad and pleading for something not extreme doesn't mean someone belongs to the "entitlement" crowd. I want Pantheon very very much to work, just like you! But please don't try to create a niche inside a niche game and presume that people who questions frequent one hour travels are some instant gratification plebs.