Hieromonk said:What land rush...?
I owned land and had a house day 1 in Arche age... But imagine if that process was based on effort and not entitlement, or being purchasable threw an item mall.. and where 80% of the player base didn't own a houses. There would be no land rush...
In Pantheon, don't expect because you have an account, that you will have a house. You will have to earn that house... I suspect like any true MMORPG you will have to find building plans, find someone to harvest the materials to build the house with, then find someone to build it (crafter). I would suspect, a house may take an individual 4~6 months to build themselves. Or a small guild sharing a single home (as a start-up guild hall), something like 3 weeks to build.
So, when the time comes in Pantheon you will not be seeing a massive influx of homes going up at the same time.. but over time.
True, Pantheon likely wouldn't have a land rush like Archeage on day one. You would most likely have to earn the right to own a house plot. BUT: During alpha/beta, people WILL find out the best/fastest way to quickly get the plot quests done (or what faction is required, etc). And then you'll have houses spring up not on day one, but maybe a few weeks into the game. The situation will most likely not be as bad as in Archeage, where you just got a plot (certificate) for every character after some very short intro quest. But you will still have people who are unhappy because they could not get their favorite spot.
Imagine doing some hard quest, and then on turn in the quest giver tells you "Sorry, you don't get a reward because you're too late...4711 others finished already before you! HAHAHAHA!". That's how I feel about limited house plots. I want Pantheon to be a game where I can get what I want through my hard work...and that includes housing*.
*Not saying that I must have a house in game...I admire if I see others nicely decorated homes, but its not one of my favorite hobbies :)
Sarim said:Hieromonk said:What land rush...?
I owned land and had a house day 1 in Arche age... But imagine if that process was based on effort and not entitlement, or being purchasable threw an item mall.. and where 80% of the player base didn't own a houses. There would be no land rush...
In Pantheon, don't expect because you have an account, that you will have a house. You will have to earn that house... I suspect like any true MMORPG you will have to find building plans, find someone to harvest the materials to build the house with, then find someone to build it (crafter). I would suspect, a house may take an individual 4~6 months to build themselves. Or a small guild sharing a single home (as a start-up guild hall), something like 3 weeks to build.
So, when the time comes in Pantheon you will not be seeing a massive influx of homes going up at the same time.. but over time.
True, Pantheon likely wouldn't have a land rush like Archeage on day one. You would most likely have to earn the right to own a house plot. BUT: During alpha/beta, people WILL find out the best/fastest way to quickly get the plot quests done (or what faction is required, etc). And then you'll have houses spring up not on day one, but maybe a few weeks into the game. The situation will most likely not be as bad as in Archeage, where you just got a plot (certificate) for every character after some very short intro quest. But you will still have people who are unhappy because they could not get their favorite spot.
Imagine doing some hard quest, and then on turn in the quest giver tells you "Sorry, you don't get a reward because you're too late...4711 others finished already before you! HAHAHAHA!". That's how I feel about limited house plots. I want Pantheon to be a game where I can get what I want through my hard work...and that includes housing*.
*Not saying that I must have a house in game...I admire if I see others nicely decorated homes, but its not one of my favorite hobbies :)
+1 land rush doesn't mean you get it day one. It means that the early bird gets the worm even if the first worm is weeks or months in.
This sounds fine on paper, but here's the problem:
1) a lot of the earliest birds will be Chinese gold farmers hoping to sell the plots through rmt. Period. No matter how clever they get to ban rmt, the farmers will find a way.
2) If the game is going to survive, it will need an influx of players steadily after launch. Whats enticing about starting a game where certain important features are "used up" already? No matter how hard you work, you won't get the reward because you started too late. That's ok for a few items here or there, but a major game point?
3) the gamer community as a whole is more toxic than almost any other hobby community known to man. There are people out there who CAN'T WAIT to exploit or grief others. Often, those people are the ones who have unnaturally high play times. There are people who will spend countless hours grinding and slaving away to put a good property on their alt "for the lulz," just to piss off other members of the community. Making the housing hard to get isn't going to deter them, it's going to enable them. Griefing means more the harder it is to get an item, because part of the allure to these people is "I had to work really hard and so did you, but I took something you wanted and I don't even need/want it!" Everyone knows of an example of this behavior.
I'm not worried about a player working harder than me and getting a better reward. I worried that this is the real world, and while some people will work harder to get a better reward, exploiters will find a way to get the good stuff through loop holes or rmt. Some will get caught, a surprising number won't. When you have a finite resource that is highly desirable, and has tiered abilities of "best, middle, worst, out of stock forever too bad," you're painting a giant target on that to the farmers that says "devote resources to obtaining as much of this as possible."
Although I could perhaps see how unique it would be to flaunt your hard earned house in the realm of pantheon I don't quite understand how a house actually fits into the "adventurers" game environment, other than being a vestige for storage, a type of bank. I don't see the appeal I guess. Is it a place meant for tradeskills or storage, growing food, or a place to meet up with fellow adventurers ?
Why would my character want to spend time there, alone, I see rather it would be an anchor in allowing the character to travel to vast realms, essentially pinning them down. A boat however I could see...
I'm not dogging the idea per se I just can't see how it fits into the games social experience, as it creates a type of "silo effect". Every player has a house that he/she now spends time in crafting, picking vegetables, meditating etc, all the while ostracizing themselves from the environment. Much fun was had being in a community tradeskill setting where the player could in part, remain social while the more boring and tedious tasks could be mitigrated by the socializing aspect.
So please share your vision on houses so that I too can understand the allure.
Valith said:Although I could perhaps see how unique it would be to flaunt your hard earned house in the realm of pantheon I don't quite understand how a house actually fits into the game environment, other than being a vestige for storage. I don't see the appeal I guess. Is it a place meant for tradeskills or storage, or a place to meet up with fellow adventurers ?
Why would my character want to spend time there, I see rather it would be an anchor of sort in allowing the character to travel to vast realms etc. A boat however may be different..
I'm not dogging the idea per se I just can't see how it fits into the game so please share your vision on houses so that I too can understand the allure.
A big part of it is just having another "thing." A place in your in game world. Storage is a huge plus for me, as I'm a completionist/hoarder in games. If I worked hard to get an item, I don't want to destroy it after an upgrade. Bank space was a massive problem in eq. I had to start deleting memories just to have room.
Of course it's also fun to have people over and have yet another thing to "achieve" in the construction/acquisition (since in games like vanguard you had to craft them, and the materials were expensive and hard to come by).
Also in brads post he alluded to them being functional, like the option to run a shop to sell goods from similar to UO.
If they let you have a hand in the design process, there's also fun t be had there.
At the end of the day, it's either your thing or it isn't. I agree that I'd rather see boats than houses if we had to choose, or pick one to come first, but why not both?
Arksien said:Valith said:Although I could perhaps see how unique it would be to flaunt your hard earned house in the realm of pantheon I don't quite understand how a house actually fits into the game environment, other than being a vestige for storage. I don't see the appeal I guess. Is it a place meant for tradeskills or storage, or a place to meet up with fellow adventurers ?
Why would my character want to spend time there, I see rather it would be an anchor of sort in allowing the character to travel to vast realms etc. A boat however may be different..
I'm not dogging the idea per se I just can't see how it fits into the game so please share your vision on houses so that I too can understand the allure.
A big part of it is just having another "thing." A place in your in game world. Storage is a huge plus for me, as I'm a completionist/hoarder in games. If I worked hard to get an item, I don't want to destroy it after an upgrade. Bank space was a massive problem in eq. I had to start deleting memories just to have room.
Of course it's also fun to have people over and have yet another thing to "achieve" in the construction/acquisition (since in games like vanguard you had to craft them, and the materials were expensive and hard to come by).
Also in brads post he alluded to them being functional, like the option to run a shop to sell goods from similar to UO.
If they let you have a hand in the design process, there's also fun t be had there.
At the end of the day, it's either your thing or it isn't. I agree that I'd rather see boats than houses if we had to choose, or pick one to come first, but why not both?
Ahh when you explain it that way I can see the appeal, especially as a "hoarder" :D I suppose my only reservation is the game turning into a sandbox "sims" type of experience, again, this may be fun for some but I gravitate more towards the sandbox with some themepark intertwined.
Valith said:Ahh when you explain it that way I can see the appeal, especially as a "hoarder" :D I suppose my only reservation is the game turning into a sandbox "sims" type of experience, again, this may be fun for some but I gravitate more towards the sandbox with some themepark intertwined.
I don't think that Pantheon will turn into something like Sims because of housing. See it as an enhancement to gaming experience - and it won't be the only one. Probably it will be big on crafting also, without turning the game into a pure economy simulator.
Of course housing is not for everybody, because it doesn't really progress your character at all (when purely cosmetic). 500+ hours spent on housing and your character would still be the same vs. 500+ hours spent raiding. If seen from a pure "characters in MMOs need to progress", then yes, housing may be seen like a waste of time. I just like it since it was first introduced to me. Now I've reached a point were I find games without housing a bit shallow. When I don't really feel like doing dungeons, then I wouldn't even log in, for what?
Arksien said:Sarim said:Hieromonk said:What land rush...?
I owned land and had a house day 1 in Arche age... But imagine if that process was based on effort and not entitlement, or being purchasable threw an item mall.. and where 80% of the player base didn't own a houses. There would be no land rush...
In Pantheon, don't expect because you have an account, that you will have a house. You will have to earn that house... I suspect like any true MMORPG you will have to find building plans, find someone to harvest the materials to build the house with, then find someone to build it (crafter). I would suspect, a house may take an individual 4~6 months to build themselves. Or a small guild sharing a single home (as a start-up guild hall), something like 3 weeks to build.
So, when the time comes in Pantheon you will not be seeing a massive influx of homes going up at the same time.. but over time.
True, Pantheon likely wouldn't have a land rush like Archeage on day one. You would most likely have to earn the right to own a house plot. BUT: During alpha/beta, people WILL find out the best/fastest way to quickly get the plot quests done (or what faction is required, etc). And then you'll have houses spring up not on day one, but maybe a few weeks into the game. The situation will most likely not be as bad as in Archeage, where you just got a plot (certificate) for every character after some very short intro quest. But you will still have people who are unhappy because they could not get their favorite spot.
Imagine doing some hard quest, and then on turn in the quest giver tells you "Sorry, you don't get a reward because you're too late...4711 others finished already before you! HAHAHAHA!". That's how I feel about limited house plots. I want Pantheon to be a game where I can get what I want through my hard work...and that includes housing*.
*Not saying that I must have a house in game...I admire if I see others nicely decorated homes, but its not one of my favorite hobbies :)
+1 land rush doesn't mean you get it day one. It means that the early bird gets the worm even if the first worm is weeks or months in.
This sounds fine on paper, but here's the problem:
1) a lot of the earliest birds will be Chinese gold farmers hoping to sell the plots through rmt. Period. No matter how clever they get to ban rmt, the farmers will find a way.
2) If the game is going to survive, it will need an influx of players steadily after launch. Whats enticing about starting a game where certain important features are "used up" already? No matter how hard you work, you won't get the reward because you started too late. That's ok for a few items here or there, but a major game point?
3) the gamer community as a whole is more toxic than almost any other hobby community known to man. There are people out there who CAN'T WAIT to exploit or grief others. Often, those people are the ones who have unnaturally high play times. There are people who will spend countless hours grinding and slaving away to put a good property on their alt "for the lulz," just to piss off other members of the community. Making the housing hard to get isn't going to deter them, it's going to enable them. Griefing means more the harder it is to get an item, because part of the allure to these people is "I had to work really hard and so did you, but I took something you wanted and I don't even need/want it!" Everyone knows of an example of this behavior.
I'm not worried about a player working harder than me and getting a better reward. I worried that this is the real world, and while some people will work harder to get a better reward, exploiters will find a way to get the good stuff through loop holes or rmt. Some will get caught, a surprising number won't. When you have a finite resource that is highly desirable, and has tiered abilities of "best, middle, worst, out of stock forever too bad," you're painting a giant target on that to the farmers that says "devote resources to obtaining as much of this as possible."
We all know what "Land Rush" means... and we all know what "Day 1" means...
Even if you started ArcheAge 1 month/year later, or fecitiously DAY 1 of YOUR 1st playing... One could easily own a house and a plot of land (because those 2 things were trivial in ArcheAge). They may not of been able to place their houses down in-game, but they still owned them, because of poor game mechanics & revenue stream of Developer. Those exact piss-poor mechanics are what allowed for a land rush to begin with & no amount of new land would matter in a game like ArcheAge, they will fill with houses, becauses housing was trivial. In the end... I had 4 homes & just up and quite. The whole game was trivial. (free accounts.. how many did you have?)
So... I am still not convinced because ArcheAge had a "land rush", that every game after has to have one, based on the same shallow and flawed game mechanics/premis & revenue stream AA had.
Secondly, I do not see any problems (1,2 & 3) because you made those problems up, based on a game nobody would design. You use flawed ideas & concepts to make a point of how bad that game would be. Instead of incerting your ideas and mechanics into how Pantheon is being designed. Anyone can make a list of badly design concepts.
In lue.. if Pantheon costs $50 to buy, and $20/month for a single Character... how many Chinese RMT'ers are going to be re-buying mutiple accounts after constantly being banned? When there is accountability for your character & tied to a real account... Even such nominal hurdles means these "traders" just can't log on.. and give someone cash and delete char/accounts, etc. Specially when u have a community like this, who will call on in-game GMs & guides.. who can track & ban such accounts instantly. Too much uncertainty and risk.
The "aftermarket" (RMT) goes upscale and more person to person in the Premium sector, such as Pantheon (Buy + subscription based only). In pantheon, most of the RMT will be Player to Player, or trading. This isn't a cheap game & we are adults here... the idea of "affording an MMORPG..." is foreign concept to most. A $240 account, per year..(?) ...is peanuts, considering people were buying & selling their Characters for $500 ~ $4k... Or spending hundreds on trips to attend FanFairs, etc. (What is a bar tab for 4 men in their 30s, after 4h @ Buffalo Wild Wings..? )
All the while Visionary Realms only gets $240 a year? Dirt cheap! ( I'll take 3 accounts please! )
Point is, path of least resistance.. and if you create impedance, & add to the RMT Farmer's logistics, while facing such accountability and tight margins, they will look elsewhere for their income.
It is not about making it "harder". These types are about the $$, if u make the cost too high, they will not make enough money for their time, and use their time in another game. Supply & demand can work both ways from each end of the Spectrum. (I suspect an new form of EULA when Pantheon is released... because new rules are the ONLY way you can have a way-forward, next gen MMORPG. It is to make sure each and every Character in the game has accountability. That is the next gen style of on-line games. Community driven worlds with social texture that matters, where your decisions matter.)
Additionallly, that is why I also keenly suggested a money sink (not time sink) in which a Player Character pays a local NPC Baron, Lord, Regent for a plot of land, instead of having it given to your character through some quest. Such a simple PC to NPC transaction takes massive amounts of money out of the economy... and in large chunks. That is all before a house is built & paid for. So let RMT Farmers buy 5 ~ 10 accounts... to hold 5 ~ 10 pieces of land... while they keep paying taxes on their holdings, as they try to sell of the land they are hoarding..? (or somehow griefing other players with by holding them)
Are they not just land owners at that point.. and not hoarders? Like anyone else?
Ideally, most plots of land will all have different prices, based on their location.. slums vs villas (lots). Owning premium land might have taxes.. so hoarding land for the sake of it, will not be profitable, etc. Which means your whole rhetorical questioning above becomes moot. So was your "griefing" scenario with housing... and again plot hoarding. Because those ideas are based on bad in-game mechanics that only XLGames would produce, not Visionary Realms. You are telling us how it was in the past, not how a 2019 Pantheon expansion would be, that included land ownership. To people who have been playing the game already for 3 years..
Chinese hackers are not going to play Pantheon for years (without getting banned) only to take advantage (a few years later) to start griefing players out of plots of land... when housing becomes available in a later expansion. At least not on the order of magnitude you see in mainstream mmos. Only a few savvy farmers will make it in a game like Pantheon & they will most likely be good players & crafters too.
So, what is the context for your ideas..?
Hieromonk said:Arksien said:Sarim said:Hieromonk said:What land rush...?
I owned land and had a house day 1 in Arche age... But imagine if that process was based on effort and not entitlement, or being purchasable threw an item mall.. and where 80% of the player base didn't own a houses. There would be no land rush...
In Pantheon, don't expect because you have an account, that you will have a house. You will have to earn that house... I suspect like any true MMORPG you will have to find building plans, find someone to harvest the materials to build the house with, then find someone to build it (crafter). I would suspect, a house may take an individual 4~6 months to build themselves. Or a small guild sharing a single home (as a start-up guild hall), something like 3 weeks to build.
So, when the time comes in Pantheon you will not be seeing a massive influx of homes going up at the same time.. but over time.
True, Pantheon likely wouldn't have a land rush like Archeage on day one. You would most likely have to earn the right to own a house plot. BUT: During alpha/beta, people WILL find out the best/fastest way to quickly get the plot quests done (or what faction is required, etc). And then you'll have houses spring up not on day one, but maybe a few weeks into the game. The situation will most likely not be as bad as in Archeage, where you just got a plot (certificate) for every character after some very short intro quest. But you will still have people who are unhappy because they could not get their favorite spot.
Imagine doing some hard quest, and then on turn in the quest giver tells you "Sorry, you don't get a reward because you're too late...4711 others finished already before you! HAHAHAHA!". That's how I feel about limited house plots. I want Pantheon to be a game where I can get what I want through my hard work...and that includes housing*.
*Not saying that I must have a house in game...I admire if I see others nicely decorated homes, but its not one of my favorite hobbies :)
+1 land rush doesn't mean you get it day one. It means that the early bird gets the worm even if the first worm is weeks or months in.
This sounds fine on paper, but here's the problem:
1) a lot of the earliest birds will be Chinese gold farmers hoping to sell the plots through rmt. Period. No matter how clever they get to ban rmt, the farmers will find a way.
2) If the game is going to survive, it will need an influx of players steadily after launch. Whats enticing about starting a game where certain important features are "used up" already? No matter how hard you work, you won't get the reward because you started too late. That's ok for a few items here or there, but a major game point?
3) the gamer community as a whole is more toxic than almost any other hobby community known to man. There are people out there who CAN'T WAIT to exploit or grief others. Often, those people are the ones who have unnaturally high play times. There are people who will spend countless hours grinding and slaving away to put a good property on their alt "for the lulz," just to piss off other members of the community. Making the housing hard to get isn't going to deter them, it's going to enable them. Griefing means more the harder it is to get an item, because part of the allure to these people is "I had to work really hard and so did you, but I took something you wanted and I don't even need/want it!" Everyone knows of an example of this behavior.
I'm not worried about a player working harder than me and getting a better reward. I worried that this is the real world, and while some people will work harder to get a better reward, exploiters will find a way to get the good stuff through loop holes or rmt. Some will get caught, a surprising number won't. When you have a finite resource that is highly desirable, and has tiered abilities of "best, middle, worst, out of stock forever too bad," you're painting a giant target on that to the farmers that says "devote resources to obtaining as much of this as possible."
We all know what "Land Rush" means... and we all know what "Day 1" means...
Even if you started ArcheAge 1 month/year later, or fecitiously DAY 1 of YOUR 1st playing... One could easily own a house and a plot of land (because those 2 things were trivial in ArcheAge). They may not of been able to place their houses down in-game, but they still owned them, because of poor game mechanics & revenue stream of Developer. Those exact piss-poor mechanics are what allowed for a land rush to begin with & no amount of new land would matter in a game like ArcheAge, they will fill with houses, becauses housing was trivial. In the end... I had 4 homes & just up and quite. The whole game was trivial. (free accounts.. how many did you have?)
So... I am still not convinced because ArcheAge had a "land rush", that every game after has to have one, based on the same shallow and flawed game mechanics/premis & revenue stream AA had.
Secondly, I do not see any problems (1,2 & 3) because you made those problems up, based on a game nobody would design. You use flawed ideas & concepts to make a point of how bad that game would be. Instead of incerting your ideas and mechanics into how Pantheon is being designed. Anyone can make a list of badly design concepts.
In lue.. if Pantheon costs $50 to buy, and $20/month for a single Character... how many Chinese RMT'ers are going to be re-buying mutiple accounts after constantly being banned? When there is accountability for your character & tied to a real account... Even such nominal hurdles means these "traders" just can't log on.. and give someone cash and delete char/accounts, etc. Specially when u have a community like this, who will call on in-game GMs & guides.. who can track & ban such accounts instantly. Too much uncertainty and risk.
The "aftermarket" (RMT) goes upscale and more person to person in the Premium sector, such as Pantheon (Buy + subscription based only). In pantheon, most of the RMT will be Player to Player, or trading. This isn't a cheap game & we are adults here... the idea of "affording an MMORPG..." is foreign concept to most. A $240 account, per year..(?) ...is peanuts, considering people were buying & selling their Characters for $500 ~ $4k... Or spending hundreds on trips to attend FanFairs, etc. (What is a bar tab for 4 men in their 30s, after 4h @ Buffalo Wild Wings..? )
All the while Visionary Realms only gets $240 a year? Dirt cheap! ( I'll take 3 accounts please! )
Point is, path of least resistance.. and if you create impedance, & add to the RMT Farmer's logistics, while facing such accountability and tight margins, they will look elsewhere for their income.
It is not about making it "harder". These types are about the $$, if u make the cost too high, they will not make enough money for their time, and use their time in another game. Supply & demand can work both ways from each end of the Spectrum. (I suspect an new form of EULA when Pantheon is released... because new rules are the ONLY way you can have a way-forward, next gen MMORPG. It is to make sure each and every Character in the game has accountability. That is the next gen style of on-line games. Community driven worlds with social texture that matters, where your decisions matter.)
Additionallly, that is why I also keenly suggested a money sink (not time sink) in which a Player Character pays a local NPC Baron, Lord, Regent for a plot of land, instead of having it given to your character through some quest. Such a simple PC to NPC transaction takes massive amounts of money out of the economy... and in large chunks. That is all before a house is built & paid for. So let RMT Farmers buy 5 ~ 10 accounts... to hold 5 ~ 10 pieces of land... while they keep paying taxes on their holdings, as they try to sell of the land they are hoarding..? (or somehow griefing other players with by holding them)
Are they not just land owners at that point.. and not hoarders? Like anyone else?
Ideally, most plots of land will all have different prices, based on their location.. slums vs villas (lots). Owning premium land might have taxes.. so hoarding land for the sake of it, will not be profitable, etc. Which means your whole rhetorical questioning above becomes moot. So was your "griefing" scenario with housing... and again plot hoarding. Because those ideas are based on bad in-game mechanics that only XLGames would produce, not Visionary Realms. You are telling us how it was in the past, not how a 2019 Pantheon expansion would be, that included land ownership. To people who have been playing the game already for 3 years..
Chinese hackers are not going to play Pantheon for years (without getting banned) only to take advantage (a few years later) to start griefing players out of plots of land... when housing becomes available in a later expansion. At least not on the order of magnitude you see in mainstream mmos. Only a few savvy farmers will make it in a game like Pantheon & they will most likely be good players & crafters too.
So, what is the context for your ideas..?
You must not play many MMOs. I've never played archage. I never even heard of it before this thread tbh, and I can now understand why cause it sounds like a crap game. I guess that must mean you're the one making assumptions and projecting. That also makes most of your argument fall apart since it all hinged and the assumption my "fears" were founded in a game I never played or really heard of.
As to farmer rmt, again, you must not play many mmos. It's a career for those people. Btw, they use stolen credit card info to make the accounts, so if you think "they'll give up and stop after being banned," you again, simply must not play many modern MMOs. I haven't played wow for a while, but every time I would give that game another chance, it felt like the gold spam got worse, not better. Warhammer, ESO, even vanguard had this problem and vanguard was far from a hit. Hell, project 99 has a gold farm problem, and it's a ******* emulator.
If you think farmer and rmt are an "invented" problem in a game "no one would make," I don't know what to tell you other than you're just objectively wrong.
And EVERY SINGLE time you have a hard to get item that isn't no drop, it will exist in rmt. Hell, eBay had to BAN everquest account selling because it was so popular. Top tier players were sold for hundreds, even thousands of dollars. It sucked. You'd see a high end player with great gear, invite them to a group, and BAM, they had no clue how to play because they bought their toon. It will be the same with housing, no doubt at all. You'll see the farmers and their stolen cc info PLing accounts, farming gold, and scooping up good housing plots, and then you'll see "account for sale, pristine house on good plot, x mount, 100 plat in bank." Etc. It happens in every. Single. MMO. Ever.
It's been a problem for over 20 years, so if you think that one crap free to play is where I was basing this, it's just not true. If you think these facts are conjecture, I'm sorry but it's just not true. If you think a system where something is finite in number and time based will not be highly competitive and desirable to the mmo community, that's just not true. If you think the RMT people will ignore a chance to cash in on a finite and desired resources by using a team of professionals that no traditional player can compete with, you haven't paid attention in any mmos.
Not sure if it's been mentioned, tried to read everything..
Perhaps a combo of instanced and not could work? For example: Guilds can get a non-instanced piece of land in the world which they can build a fortification on and some buildings (Keep, trade store, etc). The rest of the land is set aside for players to build their housing. The player houses could be assigned plots (or bought from the guild), the exterior and interior could be made All of this would require upkeep (either in materials, coins or both).
Non-guilded people could sign up for a house in Generic_Town_03 and be assigned a house that would, essentially, be instanced. Therefore a town could assign the same house to multiple people but the interior would be unique to the individuals. This would require upkeep (maybe more towards coin as a 'rent') but less than a guild house would.
In both cases you would need a way for a player to retain what they've bought/built should the guild remove them, they leave the guild, stop paying for their Generic_House_03, so on. In EQ they basically packed it up in to a box for you if you stopped paying - something like that.
On the topic of prime real estate: Going to be hard to avoid this. What's valuable to one may not be to another - but the world via the devs would have to balance this out. Again for example: that prime piece of land nearest to Town_01 has a higher upkeep cost (due to county tax?) but has less NPC_Raiders_07 attacks. That Beach_Front_01 has higher upkeep in materials (repairs) do to ocean spray and it's effects on materials. The piece of land in Remote_Mountain_04 is more likely to be attacked by NPC_Raiders_07 and need defence or repairs if no one defends it, but start up and maintenance costs are less (the price of isolation). With Pantheon having a weather system that affects in game play there's potential there to have it play a part in land ownership.
I'm really hoping to see more and newer ideas as Pantheon develops, not more of what's out there.
Canno said:Not sure if it's been mentioned, tried to read everything..
Perhaps a combo of instanced and not could work? For example: Guilds can get a non-instanced piece of land in the world which they can build a fortification on and some buildings (Keep, trade store, etc). The rest of the land is set aside for players to build their housing. The player houses could be assigned plots (or bought from the guild), the exterior and interior could be made All of this would require upkeep (either in materials, coins or both).
Non-guilded people could sign up for a house in Generic_Town_03 and be assigned a house that would, essentially, be instanced. Therefore a town could assign the same house to multiple people but the interior would be unique to the individuals. This would require upkeep (maybe more towards coin as a 'rent') but less than a guild house would.
In both cases you would need a way for a player to retain what they've bought/built should the guild remove them, they leave the guild, stop paying for their Generic_House_03, so on. In EQ they basically packed it up in to a box for you if you stopped paying - something like that.
On the topic of prime real estate: Going to be hard to avoid this. What's valuable to one may not be to another - but the world via the devs would have to balance this out. Again for example: that prime piece of land nearest to Town_01 has a higher upkeep cost (due to county tax?) but has less NPC_Raiders_07 attacks. That Beach_Front_01 has higher upkeep in materials (repairs) do to ocean spray and it's effects on materials. The piece of land in Remote_Mountain_04 is more likely to be attacked by NPC_Raiders_07 and need defence or repairs if no one defends it, but start up and maintenance costs are less (the price of isolation). With Pantheon having a weather system that affects in game play there's potential there to have it play a part in land ownership.
I'm really hoping to see more and newer ideas as Pantheon develops, not more of what's out there.
This sounds like a cool system.
Canno said:Not sure if it's been mentioned, tried to read everything..
Perhaps a combo of instanced and not could work? For example: Guilds can get a non-instanced piece of land in the world which they can build a fortification on and some buildings (Keep, trade store, etc). The rest of the land is set aside for players to build their housing. The player houses could be assigned plots (or bought from the guild), the exterior and interior could be made All of this would require upkeep (either in materials, coins or both).
Non-guilded people could sign up for a house in Generic_Town_03 and be assigned a house that would, essentially, be instanced. Therefore a town could assign the same house to multiple people but the interior would be unique to the individuals. This would require upkeep (maybe more towards coin as a 'rent') but less than a guild house would.
In both cases you would need a way for a player to retain what they've bought/built should the guild remove them, they leave the guild, stop paying for their Generic_House_03, so on. In EQ they basically packed it up in to a box for you if you stopped paying - something like that.
On the topic of prime real estate: Going to be hard to avoid this. What's valuable to one may not be to another - but the world via the devs would have to balance this out. Again for example: that prime piece of land nearest to Town_01 has a higher upkeep cost (due to county tax?) but has less NPC_Raiders_07 attacks. That Beach_Front_01 has higher upkeep in materials (repairs) do to ocean spray and it's effects on materials. The piece of land in Remote_Mountain_04 is more likely to be attacked by NPC_Raiders_07 and need defence or repairs if no one defends it, but start up and maintenance costs are less (the price of isolation). With Pantheon having a weather system that affects in game play there's potential there to have it play a part in land ownership.
I'm really hoping to see more and newer ideas as Pantheon develops, not more of what's out there.
This is somewhat what I was envisioning. For the poorer among us there would be some cheap instanced housing where we could partake in whatever housing meta-games the game provides. And there would be open world Guild housing plots where guilded players could build their personal houses upon. Perhaps like a small kingdom unto itself. Maybe have these guild plots only available in certain areas surrounding markets or whatever to further promote community.
I don’t think there should be any distinct advantages to what type of house you have but aesthetic.
What killed it for me in FFXIV was the inability to get any type of housing, even if I had the money. So I was locked out of certain content because of that.
Some restrictions that might be good is a level restriction, even if it’s level 20 or whatever. I’m hoping leveling time will be significant so this level restriction is based on that assumption. I know, regardless of game mechanics, people will reach whatever level faster than anyone anticipates but for those mortals among us, it would be a nice goal. Plus it would hopefully hinder RMT type issues.
I was so happy to read your post that housing will be a MAJOR feature of Pantheon Brad! I want it to be able to tie into the other systems of the game, not just be cosmetic fluff. I have participated in housing in many games (Eq2, Wildstar, Archeage, AION, FFXIV, SWTOR, Rift)- and it is one of my favorite features.
Archeage's housing experience was intense -I loved farming on my plots, that it was tied in with the meta game. I loved Having neighbors or even strangers that could just stop by. I loved sticking that big fish on my wall! I owned several prime plots of land /houses in ArcheAge, throughout the various testing phases and 2 release servers. Usually I had 4/5 of them all together in one spot to claim a big spot of land. My friend and I worked together to get a huge plot for a mansion. M guild was all around me so we took up mostly one area, with most of them owning about 4 plots each as well.. The reason why we were so successful is that I led my guild through practice runs for each land rush setting them up in teams to do so. We would spend hours on our vent and forums discussing the most efficient way to do this. Each guildmate practiced through the alpha/betas to get their timing down. I would like to interject here that we were no means a hardcore guild. We just wanted our land and we knew we had one shot at this. On each Launch Day I had them all on vent and I liken it to leading a raid. It was fun but exhausting. Do I want to ever do that again? Hell no! lol And I was lucky enough with my connection, prior knowldege, luck and ability to play for hours straight! I feel horrible for those that had issues preventing them from playing. I heard on vent the frustrations of those who temporarily lost their connection (or had to work that day)and could not get their plots (we as a guild got plots for them). My sister was on a different server and could not get a plot of land until release (she played a couple of months in beta). Land Hackers kept beating her to it. It was very demoralizing for her.
I absolutely loved the non-instanced housing feature of Archeage, but there are problems that many have posted above. If Pantheon were to have non-instanced housing, I, as a player will be hyperfocused on getting my plot - and I feel that many others will be too - even if it takes longer I would just work that much harder. I feel it would be a very cut-throat situation and many casual players (or players who play later than release)will be discouraged because they have little chance of ever getting a prime spot. I am not saying casual players (or players who play later than release) deserve to have "as much" as a player who plays more - what I am saying it that a casual player or a player who plays later than release should still always be able to dream of that big house on the water and if they work hard enough to possibly attain it someday. That is what MMOs are about - you dream of your goals and if you work hard enough you can get that goal. In non-instanced housing you get a one-time chance to get that plot, or you buy it from another player/RMT (including land hackers) which does not feel like you have earned it at that point. Instanced housing takes away all those issues.
I love non-instanced housing because you get to travel through people's homes, you feel you are part of the world. You get to meet people at their homes and have conversations with them. It is quite an amazing experience.
I am concerned that if housing is to be a major feature (which I am soooooo excited about) that all that data for housing would be too much for non-instanced housing. If instanced housing is implemented that takes away that concern. FFXIV has separate zones (neighborhoods) for housing so you get to meet people outside your home and they zone into your house. Yes, it is incredibly expensive, but 4 of us (that came late into the game) were able to pool our gil to get a large plot through hard work. It is easy for them to add additional neighborhoods (although they dont) and was easy for them to add it into the game post launch. Aion has a similar system. I am not sure if I want it this way, because you are removed from the rest of the game but it is less problematic than non-instanced housing.
Finally there is completely instanced housing like EQ2. EQ2 still to this day is my favorite housing system. The placement of items allows for incredible creativity. Many of the systems are tied into housing. Unfortunately housing had so many amenities such as banking and crafting in your home/guild hall that the cities became empty. But that could be tweaked. I do love seeing guildmates in the guild hall. It really gives a guild a home. Trophies and items earned in game could be displayed in your home/hall. No matter how late you were in the game, if you worked hard enough you could get your dream home/guild hall. Everyone could own a small apartment.
Instanced housing means you do not see vacant plots from inactive players. Of course in non-instanced housing they can be demolished, but an inactive player cannot ever go back to their plot. I am neutral on the issue of demoliton- in FFXIV for example, I stay subbed just so I will not lose my plot.
I love housing so much and could type forever about it, but I am trying not to. If anyone read my too long post, one: I am sorry lol and two: if you are confused about whether I want instanced or non-instanced housing, well that is because I am confused about which I would rather see in Pantheon. Of course non-instanced housing would be ideal but I have seen so many issues with it that it worries me.
Zarriya said:I love housing so much and could type forever about it, but I am trying not to. If anyone read my too long post, one: I am sorry lol and two: if you are confused about whether I want instanced or non-instanced housing, well that is because I am confused about which I would rather see in Pantheon. Of course non-instanced housing would be ideal but I have seen so many issues with it that it worries me.
Hehe, I think I can understand you :) It is true, open world housing like in Archeage was really beautiful, and it is great if others can see your decoration work too. But I saw and experienced first hand the problems this can create.
EQ2 (and Rift as well) had great options with their homes and building possibilities, but these homes were hidden away unless you invited someone to visit. Also not ideal for a game that wants to avoid instancing everywhere else.
If I understand neighborhoods correctly, they might be the ideal compromise. Open, but extendable. Perhaps along with selected truly open world spots for guild castles or similar.
Sarim said:Zarriya said:I love housing so much and could type forever about it, but I am trying not to. If anyone read my too long post, one: I am sorry lol and two: if you are confused about whether I want instanced or non-instanced housing, well that is because I am confused about which I would rather see in Pantheon. Of course non-instanced housing would be ideal but I have seen so many issues with it that it worries me.
Hehe, I think I can understand you :) It is true, open world housing like in Archeage was really beautiful, and it is great if others can see your decoration work too. But I saw and experienced first hand the problems this can create.
EQ2 (and Rift as well) had great options with their homes and building possibilities, but these homes were hidden away unless you invited someone to visit. Also not ideal for a game that wants to avoid instancing everywhere else.
If I understand neighborhoods correctly, they might be the ideal compromise. Open, but extendable. Perhaps along with selected truly open world spots for guild castles or similar.
Sarim you did understand my ramblings!:) Neighboorhoods may be a good compromise, and I may be leaning towards that, but in FFXIV you still have to let people know that you are in The Mists, ward 4, plot 32 so you are still hidden away. In instanced neighborhoods and instanced housing you still have to zone. Its a tough system to perfect so I am reading everyone's brainstorms on the matter. From your posts I see you have a lot of good first hand experience with housing and I agree with your posts.
Housing doesnt need to be fully implemented at launch. Perhaps there could be an intiial period where housing was instanced or semi instanced but eventually that goes away.
I like a huge world. SW:G had some fantastic implementations of player built communities. There was good and bad but overall, very creative. The M.O.B City, Mos Elsewhere on The Bria server is an example of a very tight player made city. Really top rate.
I had armor stores, general stores, factories, etc in a chaotic part of the world adjacent to Coronet which was a huge business district. Then I had my own home in a very remote part of Tatooine. No worldwide brokerage system is key for this to work. Fun times.
EQ2 housing. Meh. For instanced housing...ok. But never any reason to go to anyones house. Maybe to save 10% on someting expensive by buing it in the house rather than on the broker. EQ housing. Use it to store junk.
Horizons was interesting. Had some cool mechanics for player building. Yes, the "land rush" was pretty stupid considering virtually everyone abandoned the game a month after launch. But the fact that players could "cheat" the bridges to the islands made some people crazy angry.
As for big world. SW:G had planets which helped. I would set asside vast swaths that could not be built. Then you could actually expand those over time. As opposed to making all new zones like in most MMOs and totally leave the old world behind.
I do like the idea of players being able to organize themselves into city units. Gives an entirely different dimension for someone to play.
Good stuff.
Romulus said:...
I do like the idea of players being able to organize themselves into city units. Gives an entirely different dimension for someone to play.
Good stuff.
I also admire the ability of a playerbase to be able to determine the organization of a city, but how does one do this without actually requiring the player to be a "storekeeper" and selling his wares instead of adventuring? Perhaps a good alternative is the bazaar in Everquest as it created a type of flea-market effect. Perhaps I am off base though and it would be enjoyable for people to sit in their shops, haggling, a kind of East Commonlands tunnel experience perhaps?
If by organizing in city units, do you mean creating actual outposts or city's from the ground up? Perhaps allowing a band of players to construct settlements?
I guess the real dilemma I see is part of the artistry of a good game, creating something fun which represents the world we live in but not making it TOO real. For instance, I can't imagine anyone would want to be forced to sleep for 8 hours while their character restores their mana and vitality - these things are better left for the necessities of real life. However, owning a house, being a business owner, all of these things could quite possibly allow for a rich experience.
All this aside I have faith in the VR team that they will deliver a game that is nonetheless fun to play.
What would it take to have a secluded beach house? that does not depend on PvP.
From a role play perspective I would always try to camp-out in town, preferrably in one of the open apartments, Qeynos had a few, as well as Highpass- there were always rooms in Inn's. I understand what people are saying about the land rush, and it seems to me to have a William Gibson-esque pallor to it.
I can understand massive guild halls- but the only thing I can come up with to avoid a land rush is tethered to a certain city and floating in the air? where all in the guild then tether down to the tether anchor spot which is fixed? permanently? no shops. and for the non-guilded and non-RMT'ers the perks accociated with renting apartments in town? (perks to be determined). it's beyond me, I mean how do you have it in the way and out of the way at the same time?
Will there be windows?
My take is...I could care less if housing is in or not, if its instanced or not
The only thing...and this is a real fear of mine coming from EQ2...
is not to have the housing destroy or replace the need for the cities. In EQ2 once guild halls came out and you could do EVERYTHING...from selling junk to a merchant to every single last trade skill, inside the guild halls. You could even use the druid circles to port around the world! The once vibrant and lively cities suddenly became ghost towns. I want to see the cities been needed, to be vibrant 10 years down the line...not dead ghost towns 2 weeks after housing is introduced
Valith said:Romulus said:...
I do like the idea of players being able to organize themselves into city units. Gives an entirely different dimension for someone to play.
Good stuff.
I also admire the ability of a playerbase to be able to determine the organization of a city, but how does one do this without actually requiring the player to be a "storekeeper" and selling his wares instead of adventuring? Perhaps a good alternative is the bazaar in Everquest as it created a type of flea-market effect. Perhaps I am off base though and it would be enjoyable for people to sit in their shops, haggling, a kind of East Commonlands tunnel experience perhaps?
If by organizing in city units, do you mean creating actual outposts or city's from the ground up? Perhaps allowing a band of players to construct settlements?
I guess the real dilemma I see is part of the artistry of a good game, creating something fun which represents the world we live in but not making it TOO real. For instance, I can't imagine anyone would want to be forced to sleep for 8 hours while their character restores their mana and vitality - these things are better left for the necessities of real life. However, owning a house, being a business owner, all of these things could quite possibly allow for a rich experience.
All this aside I have faith in the VR team that they will deliver a game that is nonetheless fun to play.
I think one of the genius ideas of SW:G was the concept that not everyone had to be an adventurer in order to progress their characters and have fun in the game.
As for selling, you hired workers to sell for you. You loaded them up with the inventory then it didnt matter whether you were online or not.
There were established cities. And players could organize their own cities. There were also unincorporated areas where you could set up shops and factories etc outside of the game cities.
Yes, there was initially the problem of junking up the landscape. This can be dealt with by simply not permitting buildings in certain areas. Otherwise, the chaotic outskirts were a kind of challenge all on their own.
As for not wanting to interact with player made buildings. Indeed. Again, pointing to SW:G. Each city (or was it planet?) had a limited broker system. One of my things to do before I left home for my real life job in the morning was to fly around all the different cities and restock the brokers with items that had sold sometime during the night. Since the broker was limited, not all goods could be sold on them. But enough could that supplied the adventurer with what they needed to fight.
Agree that night doesnt need to last 8 hours and regaining your mana / endurance or what have you doesnt take all night. But I do like a meaningful day/night cycle in games!
Romulus said:Valith said:Romulus said:...
I do like the idea of players being able to organize themselves into city units. Gives an entirely different dimension for someone to play.
Good stuff.
I also admire the ability of a playerbase to be able to determine the organization of a city, but how does one do this without actually requiring the player to be a "storekeeper" and selling his wares instead of adventuring? Perhaps a good alternative is the bazaar in Everquest as it created a type of flea-market effect. Perhaps I am off base though and it would be enjoyable for people to sit in their shops, haggling, a kind of East Commonlands tunnel experience perhaps?
If by organizing in city units, do you mean creating actual outposts or city's from the ground up? Perhaps allowing a band of players to construct settlements?
I guess the real dilemma I see is part of the artistry of a good game, creating something fun which represents the world we live in but not making it TOO real. For instance, I can't imagine anyone would want to be forced to sleep for 8 hours while their character restores their mana and vitality - these things are better left for the necessities of real life. However, owning a house, being a business owner, all of these things could quite possibly allow for a rich experience.
All this aside I have faith in the VR team that they will deliver a game that is nonetheless fun to play.
I think one of the genius ideas of SW:G was the concept that not everyone had to be an adventurer in order to progress their characters and have fun in the game.
As for selling, you hired workers to sell for you. You loaded them up with the inventory then it didnt matter whether you were online or not.
There were established cities. And players could organize their own cities. There were also unincorporated areas where you could set up shops and factories etc outside of the game cities.
Yes, there was initially the problem of junking up the landscape. This can be dealt with by simply not permitting buildings in certain areas. Otherwise, the chaotic outskirts were a kind of challenge all on their own.
As for not wanting to interact with player made buildings. Indeed. Again, pointing to SW:G. Each city (or was it planet?) had a limited broker system. One of my things to do before I left home for my real life job in the morning was to fly around all the different cities and restock the brokers with items that had sold sometime during the night. Since the broker was limited, not all goods could be sold on them. But enough could that supplied the adventurer with what they needed to fight.
Agree that night doesnt need to last 8 hours and regaining your mana / endurance or what have you doesnt take all night. But I do like a meaningful day/night cycle in games!
If done right, I think this could be awesome personally. I've said many times before in these forums that I want a game where adventuring is one of many ways to play, not the only way.
Sniggz said:I have absolutely no interest in housing at all. To that point, I really hope it's not planned to be a 'major' part of the game at all, and I definitely don't have to be forced to interact with other player's housing all over the game world.
Well, I feel the same regarding your last statement. I also don't like to be forced to interact with other player's houses either. Normally I am not really that interested in how other player set up their houses except they did something really clever. Setting up props do create something else, things I didn't thought about, for example. Or things that are stunningly beautiful and I just bow at this outburst of creativity and art. But the other 99% of player houses are just generic and something only their creator likes (me included).
Where I beg to differ is when there are parts of the game I just don't like and say, because I don't like it, these parts shouldn't get a deserved spot in that game. If someone doesn't like crafting for example, then by all means, don't participate in it. But don't say it shouldn't be a major part of the game. Because I really think, it should.
In regards of what a game can offer to people, not less is more. More is more! Forcing people into doing something they hate is something else entirely.
Now if you were able to set up your house as a mini dungeon-( and I use the term dungeon to mean a player created hunting area) where people can come in and say ohh! what's in manouks house and be confronted with puzzles and tests and marksmanship, and ever increasing battles (a la; the arena in Sanctus Seru) with rewards that the owner has laid out,(coin or gear or information{At level 14 I got this nice runned bokken from the warrens, go there!}) or information that no rewards are available.
Or even guikd halls with a series of individual tests/encounters that if you pas, allow you merely in the area with which you can apply to the guild and then let membership progress as it may- with different leveled tests/trials.
That would be interesting. I would force myself to learn- like oblivion or Skyrim had where on PC players could make stuff with the pallate available?- just to do something like this.
Manouk said:Now if you were able to set up your house as a mini dungeon-( and I use the term dungeon to mean a player created hunting area) where people can come in and say ohh! what's in manouks house and be confronted with puzzles and tests and marksmanship, and ever increasing battles (a la; the arena in Sanctus Seru) with rewards that the owner has laid out,(coin or gear or information{At level 14 I got this nice runned bokken from the warrens, go there!}) or information that no rewards are available.
Or even guikd halls with a series of individual tests/encounters that if you pas, allow you merely in the area with which you can apply to the guild and then let membership progress as it may- with different leveled tests/trials.
That would be interesting. I would force myself to learn- like oblivion or Skyrim had where on PC players could make stuff with the pallate available?- just to do something like this.
/like