To leash Npcs to certain spots is something i always disliked in modern Mmos i hope we can return to a more EQ style behavior.
Trains to Zone gave me alot of good memories i dont even remember the bad ones. I just saw it as a positive thing in a Mmo since it gave some kind of a rogue like touch to the Game. You had to decide if you rather would like to make other ppls possibly angry at you or just die at your spot. Avoid bad Mobs or you could die, modern mmos just dont have it since you can just run thru everything and dont care about it at all and they leash back after awhile. Modern Game Worlds cater to the Player and i dislike that.
I hope others feel the same and if thers already a leashing thread i couldn find one.
There have been discussions on this before, and most people seem to agree with you on this.
Personally I'm torn. Yes, I like having to be careful about where I go, and trains were definitely an element that added some excitement to EQ. However, I really dislike the meta-gaming "got aggro? lets zone and its magically gone". I would prefer if mobs did eventually leash, but only after significantly longer distances than in other current MMOs.
I too miss the old days, but I think it should depend on the mob and context more than a generic rule for all. If you're much weaker than a mob, it should see you as not worth your time eventually and go back on its way. If you are far more powerful, it should back down so it doesn't get killed. If you kill a very important NPC in a hive style zone, maybe the mob's get blood lust and chase you to the last. Maybe a lone wolf gives up on you after a bit, but a pack of wolves keep up the chase a long time.
I'm not a fan of permanent aggro or a generic tether radius, but if they can't do a system like I described above with situational aggro, I'd take old school permanent aggro any day.
Arksien said:I too miss the old days, but I think it should depend on the mob and context more than a generic rule for all. If you're much weaker than a mob, it should see you as not worth your time eventually and go back on its way. If you are far more powerful, it should back down so it doesn't get killed. If you kill a very important NPC in a hive style zone, maybe the mob's get blood lust and chase you to the last. Maybe a lone wolf gives up on you after a bit, but a pack of wolves keep up the chase a long time.
I'm not a fan of permanent aggro or a generic tether radius, but if they can't do a system like I described above with situational aggro, I'd take old school permanent aggro any day.
You said it right, Arksein. The degree of leashing is dependent upon a number of factors. Your level compared to NPC level, the type of NPC, the environment itself, etc. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that every NPC leashes at X distance.
You know, there is the opposite to this as well: Fleeing. At what point in a fight does an NPC say to itself "crap, this is going bad I need to run". Again, it should depend. Mindless monsters and undead should not run. Animals? Lone vs Pack (Bear vs Wolf)? Predator vs Prey (Lion vs Deer)? What about 'egotistical' NPCs like dragons or giants and such that see humanoids as inferior creatures?
Vandraad said:Arksien said:I too miss the old days, but I think it should depend on the mob and context more than a generic rule for all. If you're much weaker than a mob, it should see you as not worth your time eventually and go back on its way. If you are far more powerful, it should back down so it doesn't get killed. If you kill a very important NPC in a hive style zone, maybe the mob's get blood lust and chase you to the last. Maybe a lone wolf gives up on you after a bit, but a pack of wolves keep up the chase a long time.
I'm not a fan of permanent aggro or a generic tether radius, but if they can't do a system like I described above with situational aggro, I'd take old school permanent aggro any day.
You said it right, Arksein. The degree of leashing is dependent upon a number of factors. Your level compared to NPC level, the type of NPC, the environment itself, etc. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that every NPC leashes at X distance.
You know, there is the opposite to this as well: Fleeing. At what point in a fight does an NPC say to itself "crap, this is going bad I need to run". Again, it should depend. Mindless monsters and undead should not run. Animals? Lone vs Pack (Bear vs Wolf)? Predator vs Prey (Lion vs Deer)? What about 'egotistical' NPCs like dragons or giants and such that see humanoids as inferior creatures?
One of the things they have said they want to improve on for the MMO genre is AI so I would hope there would be a varity of behavior as you describe above. It's past time that both mechanics of never ending agro and leashing are replaced.
The other day on the Phinny TLP server, there was someone in general chat raging over being trained without the person that triained having announced that they were training (even though that person said they did) - and that raging person said they were petitioning a GM over the event.
That would be at least one reason to leash mobs. A reason I disagree with, but a reason.
MMO players have been coddled over the past 10 years or so. Taking the diapers back off may be a harsh event for many people - but a necessary event.
I hope there is no leashing for the sake of leashing. I can say that that I do agree there may be some mobs that will chase you all the way to the zone line, and some that may not depending on varied factors. It is those factors which should ultimately decide whether or not a mob will chase you to the ends of the earth - or not.
I agree that generic leashing isn't very fun. I however would like to see the conditions for losing a mob be something more than zone only. Mainly I think, if you can skillfully escape the enemy by enough distance it should stop. There is room for some more complicated approaches but that would require extra attention and resources that may not be available so I like this style as a relatively simple solution.
We had a really good conversation on this earlier this year. I remember we came up with a bunch of different aggro and deaggro variables which would make for a more immersive experience overall.
I think the main point is that we all want to see aggroing mobs become dangerous again. We don't want to feel like oh, if I run 30 yards from the point of initial aggro, I'm safe again. That said, it doesn't mean every mob should chase you until you leave the zone.
One thing that made trains so bad in EQ1 was that many zones had 1 way in 1 way out, AND they were the "leash end" if you will.
If Pantheon follows the more modern style of entire zone walls being passable, excluding natural features that prohibit or hinder such play, then train become less of a concern. If Pantheon goes zoneless, then some form of leashing is necessary, be it a gain distance between you and the mob in chase, or distance from the mobs original location.
If they can come up with a compromise that not only is intuitive to an intelligent AI for mobs, and one that is feasible from a gameplay standpoint, then trains as we have known them in the passed should only really be an issue in closed or pathed zones (IE: dungeions, caves, canyons), and less of an issue in open zones.
Fulton said: be it a gain distance between you and the mob in chase, or distance from the mobs original location.
I'd prefer to see no leashing but if there were leashing, this above is exactly how it should be done. I wouldn't want to have to kite in a circle to keep the mob the same distance from his spawn point, but as long as I stay within a reasonable distance (But still fairly long [Like 3x the maximum casting distance]) then the mob should maintain agro.
-Furor
Each mob should have independent AI and allow the player to use skills, technique or game terrain in order to successfully kill or bypass the situation. This is one key feature that made EQ so great. It allowed key classes to really shine for the greater good of their friends or group.
A mobs aggro can be a myriad of ways and factors.
In EQ, some mobs were social, some werent.. One would not just arbitrarily attacks mobs, without knowing how they react. Some use LOS, some AOE for aggro.. etc. The point being, is that leashing is a form of AI, that is just a NPC character hook, that can be toggled on, or off. How leashing may effect a particular zone, or zone in, is a design issue, not a problem.
As such, most of the situation and scenarios people here are mentioning, are worst case situation.. in static 17 year old games.
Running from animals is an everyday affair... it is how heroes are made.
64bit allows for greater NPC AI without much load on servers. Expect a lot more encounters to have secondary off-tanks.. mobs will be smarter in Pantheon.
Leashing should not something you can say your option is X or y, not both.
I like the leashing and low health fleeing and other AI items to be custom to the type of enemy. A mamma bear protecting her den isn't going to chase you forever, just enough to get you away from the cubs. However, a mindless skeleton or zombie should agro you for any reason regardless of your level and chase you until it's limbs fall off. When it's near death it probably won't run either.
bigdogchris said:Leashing should not something you can say your option is X or y, not both.
I like the leashing and low health fleeing and other AI items to be custom to the type of enemy. A mamma bear protecting her den isn't going to chase you forever, just enough to get you away from the cubs. However, a mindless skeleton or zombie should agro you for any reason regardless of your level and chase you until it's limbs fall off. When it's near death it probably won't run either.
+1
Thanks for all the replies, sounds like were on the right way here. At least on the Forums :). I agree if its zoneless there needs to be some mechanic to get rid of an Enemy. Some type of Smell, See or Hear aggro would be interesting as in Dog like creatures smell you and its hard to loose them unless you put considerable distance between you and that said creature (Mythbusters tested alot of ways to get rid of bloodhounds and they all failed so its hard to get rid of a Dog). Hear and See type could be much easier to loose if you hide in a good spot they loose aggro after awhile. Some differences could make the Game interesting.