During Kickstarter there was (unless i dreamt this...) some reference to one of the classes possbily dual wielding shields. Possibly Crusader?
is this idea still alive?
is it more a consideration of physical and magical shields or is it actually consideration of two physical shields?
I recall at the time discussion about feasibility and practicality, ie would this be a purely defence spec that was utilised in raid environments as it it could be problematic to utilise in questing .....
Anyway, i hope this was not some late night bad pizza induced dream and someone has some more idea?
thanks in advance
I have heard this topic brought up before but my main question would be, how would they generate threat?
Realistically, if I saw a guy holding two shields on a battlefield he would be my last target because what damage could he really do compared to that guy over there with a sword.
Aggelos said:... how would they generate threat?
Realistically, if I saw a guy holding two shields on a battlefield he would be my last target because what damage could he really do compared to that guy over there with a sword.
this is what i was wondering. Or whether the whole idea had been sidelined? I was intrigued at how they may develop this line and had been watching to see if there was some further discussion. Re threat generation, my only thoughts are in line with the following regarding the use of a shield as a weapon, you could adapt it so that one shield was a more versatile/lighter perhaps sharper edged so that it was a melee weapon and defensive.....
The Old Bashing Shield
The main purpose of the Spartan shield was defensive; however Spartans also used it to bash their opponents. This could be to stun them, knock them down or get some room to use another weapon. The shield could also be used as a killing weapon outright, its weight and thin edge making it a superb blunt weapon. The hoplite shield, or aspis (although it is commonly called a ‘hoplon’), was heavy, weighing about 30 pounds. They were constructed out of wood with an outer layer of bronze. Due to its defensive nature, Spartans using it as a weapon could gain the advantage of surprise. Being clubbed to death by heavy shield may have even been more unpleasant then being hacked apart by a Kopis!
Regarding the highlighted section, if he was able to hurt, but more importantly CC through stun and knockdowns and also had significant dmg mitigation for self and raid he would be a target to be dealt with early as letting him live would make everything painfully slow?
i envisage the abilty to throw a shield and provide area effect dmg mitigation?
edit: typos and ability discussion
I think when they referred to dual wielding shields, it was in reference to one on the back, one in the hand. I.e the shield would take up a cape slot. Allowing for much higher armour and perhaps stats more tailored towards a tank.
We can see an early example in this screenshot:
(for non-squished picture Right click - View image)
I too saw this idea on the forums awhile ago and it alarms me now as much as it did then ... I kind of hoped it had been filed under the 'nonsensical ludicrous ill considered outburst' pile right on the corner of someones desk the one with the bin below it that it could pushed into after a period of 'humouring' time.
The mere idea of dual wielding two, lets face it awkward and heavy, defensive by concept (as there are much more efficient offensive weapons, like swords...) shields as an effective method of entering combat where the idea is to kill or disable your foe before they do the same to you is frankly ludicrous and was never popular throughout history for a reason. Just use one big shield......... though these were mainly used in formations not individual combat.
Yes I know this is a fantasy game but just because somone came up with some impulsive idea in there head that they felt the compulsion to utter in public forums doesn't mean they should of. I have played main tanks in both eq, eq2 plus a myriad of other lesser mmorpgs and the mere thought of dual wielding shields is very traumatising for me.
May I recommend Power Rangers, Tron or maybe even the old classic Ice Pirates for quality viewing for those frustrated shield dual wielders out there.
Sevens said:THis was actually talked about very seriously...and someone had posted a picture of a dual shield wielding fighter
the shield in the weapon hand was more of a buckler and looked pretty much like a circular saw blade...it could probally do some serious damage
When I imagine a character dual wielding shields, I picture shields with bladed edged that could be swung as a weapon as well as being used as a defensive shield. Although this concept may look more feasable on a langer race such as the Ogres, Archai or maybe humans (The skar have the size, but dont look like they'd be using shields with those vicious claws :P)
I also like the idea of a shield replacing a cape for a more heavily fortified Tank! :D
Rachael
It was talked about. I hope it's still in.
I believe the concept is built upon the shields having spiked or razor edges to attack with along with shield throws and bashes. It's a new spin on a fortified tank which I actually really like. Was hoping it was more of an option for the warrior instead of the crusader aka pally though. Don't really see it fitting the paladin theme
Rachael said:When I imagine a character dual wielding shields, I picture shields with bladed edged that could be swung as a weapon as well as being used as a defensive shield. Although this concept may look more feasable on a langer race such as the Ogres, Archai or maybe humans (The skar have the size, but dont look like they'd be using shields with those vicious claws :P)
I also like the idea of a shield replacing a cape for a more heavily fortified Tank! :D
Rachael
Lord of the Rings movie...Uruk'hai shield. A definite 'offensive oriented' shield. When you look at how it is worn, lengthwise along the forearm with the hand grip at the end it's movement parameters are far wider than a shield strapped to the upper arm or just held by the hand. You have attack capabilities along the leading edge (slash, pierce) and trailing edge (slash) and the defensive aspect of it being able to cover both front and side. I don't see why dual wielding such shields couldn't be possible.
Oxillion said:This was an interesting thread. I was not sure what was ment with the dual shield concept. Now that I understand the possiblities with the style what class would use it? Warrior or specilized?
Ox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_u0tDx3Ky0
I would want it to be a Warrior only skill
They are the most defensive of the tanks with Crusaders and Dreadlords having spells and other tricks
I dont see why not. I would use 2 shields if I had to run a tight gauntlet of mobs. Plus, you wouldnt riposte anything and get summond.
I say everyone should be able to use 2 shields. Really, I think anyone should be able to equip anything, however if they dont have skill in that type of wep then they wouldnt be proficient with it.
Have classes who dont usually equip certain weapon types learn them slower, say 1/10th to 1/100th normal rate. This could give people something else to do, and further increase freedom of expression or play style. Could put in quests to learn other weapons skills that could then be leveled up at a non-practical/glacial pace.
Same for armor, give plate, chain, leather, and cloth a strength requirement. Plate would naturally weigh the most and require massive strength and so on.
There is precedent for this kind of thing.
I think it's a really exciting concept! It would be such a unique playstyle and I think it's exactly the kind of fresh idea that Pantheon thrives on. I can definitely picture myself playing a shield-spec'd Warrior. It makes sense that if you practice enough, you can have a devastating bash. I bet that could be really effective for damage, stuns, knockback, etc. Picture a huge ogre warrior wielding two massive steel shields with big sharp spikes in the center and razor-like blades around the edge. I think that would get a mob's atttention real fast :) I would love to see this. There's no good reason why not.
The only way i could see this working in any slightly realistic way for tanking would be as a "hunker down" skill. For this it would work in a way that you carry a second shield with you but dont equip it yet, you draw all the agro you can with your standard weapon and then when things are getting a little hot you use the "hunker down" skill by equipping both shields and shielding yourself from all attacks. Maybe by doing this you repel almost all damage but you also lose agro faster than just standing stationary would.
Certainly in RL having 2 shields and actually being able to skillfully defend would be terribly difficult let alone trying to attack. 2 Shields would be extremely vunerable to long spears and also shield charges and either of those would make short work of a person with a medium to large shield in each hand (from my experience the space between the bottom of each shield at your thigh would be VERY difficult keep closed and a spearman doesnt need much of an invitation to take out a shield mans thigh real fast. But realistically in a battle you wouldnt even think twice about a fighter on the field with 2 shields actually, one shield charge and he would be flat out on the floor and everyone would have a good laugh watching him try to get up (before his head is cleaved trying anyways) :p so as a tank who is supposed to draw some fire it doesnt make any sense in RL but then again this is high fantasy!
darksaber8570 said:I kinda like the idea of dual wielding shields but I would like to keep as a AA ability to be earned. Of course there is the agro generation issue so I am not sure how that will work. OF course charging in the mob with both shields sounds like alot of fun to me hehe.
I think if you did a shield charge and you had 2 shields the guy your charging with 1 shield would decimate you at the point of impact. Bracing for impact, balance, force, direction and timing are the keys to success in a shield charge and having 2 shields would not let you use your lead shoulder and other arm to brace the hit properly so i think while it seems awesome (and it does!!) you would be flat out on your back once you hit a single shield fighter that has braced for imapact.
(Off topic fun story) I learnt a very hard lesson once in my first ever shield charge... @ 6'4" and aged 18 i was fairly confident i was going to wipe the floor with most people who i charged, I had a massive heavy kite shield that probably stood 5'8" on its own merrit, I ran as hard and fast at this guy as i could and at the last moment jumped so i could get maximum force coming into him... (sounded like a great idea at the time) He braced for impact down low and angled up and as i sailed towards him i thought to myself i am going to flatten this guy... I hit his shield flush and boom i sprung back like a spring board straight off his sheield backwards about 2 metres in the air, blacked out in mid air probably from whiplash lol and woke up on the ground with one of my mates standing over me laughing "oh yeah, never jump in a shield charge!". So from there after i didnt jump again and stuck to the techniques i had been taught and had much more success lol :p
Even if you would have a way to "hunker down" while wielding dual-wielding shields, it would be very ineffective for the simple reason of structure.
For one to be able to wield 2 shields and use them both against someone, he would basically have to stand square against them, this gives little support from the rest of the body when compared to having 1 shield and being able to stand in a more sideways position where you can lean your mass and support the shield with say your shoulder or hips more easily.
Having 2 actual shield sized shields would be unimmaginably clunky and uncomfortable to use, leaving the user with very few ways to actually hold them. And being inflexible is the last thing a fighter would want to be imo.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie
Youmu said:Even if you would have a way to "hunker down" while wielding dual-wielding shields, it would be very ineffective for the simple reason of structure.
For one to be able to wield 2 shields and use them both against someone, he would basically have to stand square against them, this gives little support from the rest of the body when compared to having 1 shield and being able to stand in a more sideways position where you can lean your mass and support the shield with say your shoulder or hips more easily.
Having 2 actual shield sized shields would be unimmaginably clunky and uncomfortable to use, leaving the user with very few ways to actually hold them. And being inflexible is the last thing a fighter would want to be imo.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie
Yeah thats right, both your shoulder, arm hips and knee plays an important role in being able to defend and take hits incoming onto a shield, one example would be if your not braced properly using your whole body a spear can open up a shield by hitting the outside edge of the shield and if your not careful it swings open like a door exposing the shieldman for a easy kill! But also needing to move the shield around to defend various angles, i just cant imagine you could do this with 2 shields. And lastly the factor of feeling too armoured is sometimes a bad thing, starting to feel invunerable is a dangerous thing on the battle field :p Many a full plate wearing or large shield fighter has fallen feeling a little bit too powerful to be watching his flanks as closely as he shoudl be! :p
Have you done much medieval combat Youmu?
All realism asside, how would balance work for two shields?
In video games where your character doesnt need to worry about falling over, shields are big hunks of defensive stats. Swords are usually hunks of offensive stats, with the occasional defense.
Lots of people talk about an inverse relationship between aggro and defense. So the dual shield users would have trouble keeping aggro, the sword users would have trouble keeping themselves alive even with heal spam.
The idea could work, however finding a point where dual shield users dont become useless because they can't keep aggro in groups that tend to want their dps to be as efficient as possible, and where the dual shield users, despite needing the raid to have less healers (and therefore more dps classes), can still be balanced out by the sword users. That's a mouthful so read this.
Tim the sword user can get more aggro, so more dps and support can be angering his target, and he himself deals some damage. Sounds like a main tank to me.
Bob the dual shield user gets less aggro, so less dps can be hitting his target, but he defends more, provides more support, and needs less heals, allowing more dps and less healers/supporters to be in the group/raid. Sounds like an off tank to me.
What do you guys think?
Hokanu said:Yeah thats right, both your shoulder, arm hips and knee plays an important role in being able to defend and take hits incoming onto a shield, one example would be if your not braced properly using your whole body a spear can open up a shield by hitting the outside edge of the shield and if your not careful it swings open like a door exposing the shieldman for a easy kill! But also needing to move the shield around to defend various angles, i just cant imagine you could do this with 2 shields. And lastly the factor of feeling too armoured is sometimes a bad thing, starting to feel invunerable is a dangerous thing on the battle field :p Many a full plate wearing or large shield fighter has fallen feeling a little bit too powerful to be watching his flanks as closely as he shoudl be! :p
Have you done much medieval combat Youmu?
Yes I guess one could say I do medieval comabat, I study and train HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts), mostly Longsword(bastard sword/2handed sword) and Military Sabre but I have tried some Sword+Buckler and Viking shield and I can say that fighting with a shield is very awkward if you are not used to it. A big shield protects you very well yes but it also blocks your own vision to some degree and stops some lines of attack and learning to fight well with one is pretty tricky.
And as we are on topics of shields, what you people here think about the difference in how they are held. Should there be different categories depening on if the shield is stapped to your arm or held with the hand?
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie
