Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Can Pantheon have Diplomacy? VG soh Bards?

    • 10 posts
    December 19, 2015 6:26 PM PST

    and other VG features like with out been sued.  if keep talking about old MMOs we liked, can you bring some featrues or other similarities back in a new form. I miss VG/bards

    • 9115 posts
    December 19, 2015 7:10 PM PST

    I also loved VG Diplo but, more importantly, I'm trying to figure out why you have our web address in front of your username! lol

    • 36 posts
    December 19, 2015 8:23 PM PST

    Loved both of these. Also the web address. 

    • 85 posts
    December 20, 2015 3:43 AM PST

    Tbh the more options you have other than crafting , harvesting and adventuring will always be a plus. So yeah if your idea was.. why not diplomacy, planting , fishing , dancing , exploring , collecting etc etc. Why the hell not? Main thing is that we are all kept busy. Thus giving the team more time for what is needed. Everyone wants a well polished game , update or what ever. More time for team + Quality Control = polished game/updates with a side of happy players... (but no one is perfect so lets see) But the game has to have crafting and harvesting at the least to keep the players busy.


    This post was edited by Azraell at December 20, 2015 3:45 AM PST
    • 999 posts
    December 20, 2015 7:32 AM PST

    Agreed Azraell; however, like all things, if the systems are implemented into Pantheon I'd assume they'd have rewards also.  Where it becomes difficult is how to reward systems without trivializing "risky" gameplay (adventuring).  If Pantheon had additional trades like diplomacy, dancing, etc., then I'd like them to award gear similar to VG where it was +diplomacy skill (or +sub-skills within diplomacy).  And, perhaps after raising it to a certain level, there would be a few rewards that may be outside the diplomacy sphere (that may require a combination of crafting/adventuring as well).

    • 10 posts
    December 20, 2015 4:56 PM PST

    Oops don't know how that happend and dont know how to change it. Anyways would love to see this game moving forward thats why I pledged. add Bards plz 

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    December 20, 2015 5:59 PM PST

    Our plan is to launch a solid game, a PvE focused, cooperative, community based MMO.  That will be our focus, although we will also have a crafting system and some other cool systems (see the 'Pantheon Difference').  Create a foundation that works, and build upon it some new ideas and some new approaches to some old ideas that haven't been taken where they could have or should have gone in past efforts.

    One of the great things about MMOs, assuming you design them to last months and years, is that you can always build upon the game, adding new systems, classes, mechanics, etc. 

    The most important thing is to make sure you have a solid and fun PvE foundation.  We also have said we don't want to just create a modern emulator of an old school MMO.  If you look at the FAQ and the 'Pantheon Difference' you'll see the newer and more advanced systems and ideas we want to build upon this solid foundation by launch.

    The current plan is to deliver on what has been described on the web page by launch.  We also are planning and designing around systems and content that will last.  We plan on sticking with Pantheon for a very long time.  We're definitely in this for the long haul -- launch will provide a fantastic and compelling game, but it's also a starting point in one sense.  That starting point, like I've said, is a solid foundation build around PvE, traditional cooperative and social systems, and then the newer and more advanced systems described in 'The Pantheon Difference'.

    We're confident that we can launch this game as described and that it will be a compelling and rewarding experience.  But with launch being also just a starting point, we're designing systems that are meant to be expanded.  The typical 'expansion' is more areas to explore, an increased level cap, and new and exciting (and often more powerful) items and abilities.  

    But we want to do more than that post-launch.  We also want to add some uniquely playing classes like the Bard.  We want to have alternate ruleset servers, like PvP and RP servers.  Then we want to take the game even further, some of which we've hinted at on the web page and in interviews and such.  Something like Diplomacy, while I am *not* announcing or promising such a system this early on, would be another way to advance your character and contend with the environment that we could add post-launch, building upon our solid foundation.  Building houses in a non-instanced environment is another.  More complex means of travel, like owning your own persistent ship might be another.  Evolving vehicles (horses, ships, etc.) beyond transportation and allowing them to engage in combat would be another.  Harnessing user-generated content yet another.  

    So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Pantheon will be fantastic and fun at launch, to us it's just the first phase of development in a sense.  It's a solid foundation plus the newer ideas we want to be in place.  But what really gets me excited, and one of the reasons why I am committed to making MMOs until my last dying breath, is the potential they have to keep expanding both vertically *and* horizontally.  I wasn't able to fully realize this long term potential of MMOs with EQ and Vanguard, but with Pantheon I definitely intend to.  We want to keep the company small and focused, perhaps explore the idea of another game, but NOT to create another SoE where we have lots of different games in development.  We'd rather have fewer games, a smaller more focused company, not sell out the company and stick by our games for many years.  There are so many ideas we have for MMOs, but you just can't get all of those ideas into an MMO by launch.  It's a process that should take years, keeping us busy and happy, and hopefully keeping all of the players excited as well -- create more than a game but an actual home -- having a blast with the game at launch, but also looking forward to what Pantheon could become months, years, and even a decade down the road.  I look at EQ and how long it's been online and am very proud and encouraged.  But with EQ, it didn't really expand that much horizontally -- the focus was on new zones, new mobs, higher level caps, new AAs, etc.  Very vertical.  So while I'm proud that EQ has lasted so long, I won't be satisfied again with an MMO that just expands vertically.  

    People often talk about Sandbox vs. Themepark.  The way I look at the grand vision behind Pantheon is that it's a Sandbox that starts with some Themeparks within that Sandbox.  But instead of just adding to the themeparks, I'd like to see the game evolve where there are more and more Themeparks within this ever expanding Sandbox.  That's what I mean when I talk about horizontal expansion, where an MMO offers more and more things for its players to do, perhaps some very different advancement paths that all co-exist within the greater Sandbox.  

    I also don't think sequels make much sense in terms of where I'd like to see MMOs go.  Content must be preserved -- developers cannot just start over every so many years, re-creating an MMO from scratch, building the foundation again, the core gameplay and mechanics, and all of the content (mobs, quests, lore, regions, etc.) again.  Instead I think at some point you 'fork' the game, leaving behind, say, Pantheon 1.0 for people who are happy with the game just growing vertically.  And then instead of a sequel, the game forks into Pantheon 2.0, retains and preserves the content and mechanics from before, but then pushes out horizontally, adding new ways to advance and grow your character, providing new experiences, new challenges, etc.  They key is you don't start over -- you preserve the past and then keep building and adding.  

    One of the challenges, of course, is that technology continues to advance, and a game designed to last the long haul will have to get some makeovers and facelifts along the way.  New technology, say graphics, has to be integrated into the game periodically lest it start looking dated or limited.  So integrating newer technology while preserving content would be the goal, essentially continuing to evolve a game for years, and perhaps even decades.  Easier said than done, of course, and there will certainly be hurdles to jump over and challenges to overcome.  But it can be done, and it needs to be done.

    In summary, while it's too early to commit to the specifics of our post-launch plans, the answer to the OPs question is a general yes -- adding new classes that work very differently than previous classes (like a Bard) is indeed part of the Grand Vision.  Adding new advancement paths (perhaps something like Diplomacy) is also part of the Grand Vision.  Taking both PvE and PvP a lot farther than most games have is as well.  Housing, ships, user generated content, controlling regions (conquest, etc.), integrating some RTS elements into MMOs... I could go on and on... and I've gone on enough for this post, but you can be assured our plans are very long term and where we want to take Pantheon over the years is by no means limited to simply adding more vertical content (more levels, more mobs, more zones, more of the same).  It's much, much more than that :)

     


    This post was edited by Aradune at December 20, 2015 6:02 PM PST
    • 10 posts
    December 20, 2015 10:28 PM PST

    Good to read can't wait

    • 9115 posts
    December 21, 2015 1:04 AM PST

    httpwwwpantheonmmocomcontentprofileHalak1 said:

    Oops don't know how that happend and dont know how to change it. Anyways would love to see this game moving forward thats why I pledged. add Bards plz 

    I fixed it up in admin and it should change to "Halak" for you soon, if you have any issues please send me a PM and I will help you sort it out :)

    • 999 posts
    December 21, 2015 8:29 AM PST

    @Aradune

    I appreciate the detailed response.  I think the key that I took from that post and what I absolutely agree with is what can be learned from EQ's longetivity.  Instead of creating Pantheon and then a few years down the road thinking about how could you make Pantheon 2 (similar to EQ2 or VG), continue to expand Pantheon both vertically and horizontally so it continually feels new and fresh (with the ability to give graphical facelifts that were better than Luclin-style EQ haha).  I'm no designer, but, I think where SoE and other companies hurt themselves was by supporting games that ultimately competed aganist each other - EQ, EQ2, VG fully expecting the new MMO release to sunset the last and capture the previous game's playerbase.  

    If VRI released additional MMOs outside Pantheon (unless Pantheon was failing) - I would want to see them attempt to capture a different niche or playerbase.

    • 10 posts
    December 21, 2015 11:26 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    httpwwwpantheonmmocomcontentprofileHalak1 said:

    Oops don't know how that happend and dont know how to change it. Anyways would love to see this game moving forward thats why I pledged. add Bards plz 

    I fixed it up in admin and it should change to "Halak" for you soon, if you have any issues please send me a PM and I will help you sort it out :)

    Thank you!!

    • 154 posts
    December 21, 2015 2:11 PM PST

    @Aradune

    Appreciate your openness and honesty for the vision of the game. I am intrigued by the horizontal expansion. IMO I would think that Kunark and Luclin would present examples of horizontal expansions and maybe the Ykesha expansion as well? These gave new low level experiences via new races and classes and low level zones. I am just wondering if things like that would be part of what you would consider horizontal expansions?

    • 85 posts
    December 21, 2015 4:35 PM PST

    horizontal expansion to me sounds like new game mechanics added. Like imagine VG had just released apw then at the same time, they added Guild pvp or better yet they added the zepplin to the game with air combat. 

    • 2138 posts
    December 21, 2015 7:41 PM PST

    I see horizontal expansion ( heh, not like the Henny Youngman  influenced joke- when this gamer sits around the house, they sit AROUND the house! lol) as a way to experience more of the game world and keep that experience meaningful in a game way- like exp type benefits that go beyond mere faction. For instance, I remember wanting to visit riverdale, My idea was to establish some factions in all the towns, but while still young and while it as meaningfull. By the time I was able to march into rivervale at whatever time of day or night and discovering what was there, I found myself saying, oh, this quest reward would have been nice, back then, or : I remember  this was just the sort  thing I was looking for  for this slot, back then. 

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    December 22, 2015 1:40 PM PST

    cram9030 said:

    @Aradune

    Appreciate your openness and honesty for the vision of the game. I am intrigued by the horizontal expansion. IMO I would think that Kunark and Luclin would present examples of horizontal expansions and maybe the Ykesha expansion as well? These gave new low level experiences via new races and classes and low level zones. I am just wondering if things like that would be part of what you would consider horizontal expansions?

    Great question -- what you describe is a bit of both.  Horizontal to a degree in that there were new races/classes, which ideally provides the player a different experience as he is leveling up.  Adding new zones in which you pretty much do the same thing (kill mobs, do quests, camp items. etc.) is vertical expansion.  

    The horizontal expansion I was refering to was classes that truly work differently as well as other ways to advance your character, e.g. not necessarily combat related and only about killing mobs, doing quests, and getting loot.

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    December 22, 2015 1:42 PM PST

    Azraell said:

    horizontal expansion to me sounds like new game mechanics added. Like imagine VG had just released apw then at the same time, they added Guild pvp or better yet they added the zepplin to the game with air combat. 

    Correct.  APW would be vertical, but if the game didn't have Guild PvP or Air Combat, that would be more horizontal.  

    • 122 posts
    December 22, 2015 6:25 PM PST

    @aradune 

    That's really encouraging to read. If I wasn't already on the hype train, I'd be getting on now. One thing I'm curious about though: you just mentioned a LOT of possibilities for "add on advancement" to the game (I especially hope houses and player ships make the cut btw, those were some of the best parts of VG). However, everything discussed has in some way "advanced" a character, either through storyline, personal possesions/property, or abilities. 

    What are your thoughts on "just for fun" immersion points? In non-mmos, I often find myself "goofing off" in game with little mini-games, either intended or otherwise. They don't necessarily offer a reward per se, but are more "something to do" in this alternate world that could be comparable to killing time. I find these are often the biggest difference between an immersive enviroment and "just a game." Things like the ability to throw darts or play a game of pool in GTA, fishing in Zelda, the various card games in the final fantasy series etc.

    Now of course, the primary mechanics are the most important, and any resources put into such tiny diversions are taking resources away from "the bigger picture," but I feel like these little side distractions are often missing from mmos. MMOs always seem to have "there's a reward at the end" as part of the thesis for any mechanic. I find that many MMOs, including EQ and VG, when I quit, it was because I was logging in, running around in circles on my horse for an hour or two while LFG, then logging out. However if I had a little community diversion to engage other players with, or a public "rec hall" like a place where people hang out similar to a pool hall or bowling alley (or whatever game people played back in the day), I might get swept back up in the community a bit longer and stay on til I had my group.

    Are little diversions like the ability to sit down and play cards in game with friends at all on the radar? Scavenger hunt items where the only reward you get is the satisfaction of having a collectable with no real combat value (like bobble heads in fallout for example)? Or would this "vertical and horizontal upgrade" structure likely need to stick to the "skills and advancement " model of thinking? I'm genuinely curious since I feel MMOs tend to (by their very nature) follow a different model than some of the more immersive single player titles, and I've always been curious if that's due to contraints or not.

    • 1778 posts
    December 23, 2015 10:35 AM PST
    Thanks for that post Aradune! Really great read. I dont want to be that guy but.... You say bard would be a unique class type youd want to bring in an expansion. So I have to ask is that a confirmation of it being expansion content or do I dare hope it possible for Launch? Im still waiting patiently for an update on classes but just from speculation on the launch classses the only dedicated support class appears to be Enchanter. Maybe Im wrong though.
    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    December 23, 2015 3:50 PM PST

    Amsai said: Thanks for that post Aradune! Really great read. I dont want to be that guy but.... You say bard would be a unique class type youd want to bring in an expansion. So I have to ask is that a confirmation of it being expansion content or do I dare hope it possible for Launch? Im still waiting patiently for an update on classes but just from speculation on the launch classses the only dedicated support class appears to be Enchanter. Maybe Im wrong though.

    Heh, I don't want to be 'that guy' either, but at this point, while we will try to fit it in, I cannot promise Bard at launch.  One of the points I was trying to make is that our vision for a Bard (and some other future classes) is one that is very different than any of the core classes we are launching with, and those sort of significantly different implementations will usually be post-launch horizontal content.

    ps. the alternative would be to just quickly implement a generic Bard that fits into our current class structure, roles, interdependence (the quaternity, etc)., but I don't think you guys want us to really do that... the Bard can be an amazing class, but if done correctly, really works differently than the core classes we have planned for launch... I'd like to see 'songs' work very differently than abilities/spells/prayers... composition of music.... lots of cool stuff.   Worth the wait, IMHO.


    This post was edited by Aradune at December 23, 2015 5:18 PM PST
    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    December 23, 2015 5:11 PM PST

    Arksien said:

    @aradune 

    That's really encouraging to read. If I wasn't already on the hype train, I'd be getting on now. One thing I'm curious about though: you just mentioned a LOT of possibilities for "add on advancement" to the game (I especially hope houses and player ships make the cut btw, those were some of the best parts of VG). However, everything discussed has in some way "advanced" a character, either through storyline, personal possesions/property, or abilities. 

    What are your thoughts on "just for fun" immersion points? In non-mmos, I often find myself "goofing off" in game with little mini-games, either intended or otherwise. They don't necessarily offer a reward per se, but are more "something to do" in this alternate world that could be comparable to killing time. I find these are often the biggest difference between an immersive enviroment and "just a game." Things like the ability to throw darts or play a game of pool in GTA, fishing in Zelda, the various card games in the final fantasy series etc.

    Now of course, the primary mechanics are the most important, and any resources put into such tiny diversions are taking resources away from "the bigger picture," but I feel like these little side distractions are often missing from mmos. MMOs always seem to have "there's a reward at the end" as part of the thesis for any mechanic. I find that many MMOs, including EQ and VG, when I quit, it was because I was logging in, running around in circles on my horse for an hour or two while LFG, then logging out. However if I had a little community diversion to engage other players with, or a public "rec hall" like a place where people hang out similar to a pool hall or bowling alley (or whatever game people played back in the day), I might get swept back up in the community a bit longer and stay on til I had my group.

    Are little diversions like the ability to sit down and play cards in game with friends at all on the radar? Scavenger hunt items where the only reward you get is the satisfaction of having a collectable with no real combat value (like bobble heads in fallout for example)? Or would this "vertical and horizontal upgrade" structure likely need to stick to the "skills and advancement " model of thinking? I'm genuinely curious since I feel MMOs tend to (by their very nature) follow a different model than some of the more immersive single player titles, and I've always been curious if that's due to contraints or not.

    Adding other things 'to do' while playing is technically horizontal content, but it does take time to implement systems, so I think we will put most of our effort into horizontal systems that you can actually progress through.... build your character.  Again, not necessarily against what you are talking about, it's just about time and resource management to me and getting the most bang for our (your?) buck.

    To that end, I really like the idea of exploring different ways to progress your character, to build and update your character.... like how crafting and diplomacy had their own levels in VG.  There were three primary ways you could build/progress your character in VG, giving you more options and things to do.... a little sick of crafting?  Waiting for a group for adventure?  Do some diplomacy!  

    That sort of thing....

    ps. as for the hype train, I *do* need to be careful here... I've been talking about where we want to take Pantheon post-launch, and while I don't mind talking about it, I do want the focus to be on what we're launching with.... talking about the Grand Vision (which is the term I'm trying to use when I'm talking about the Vision(TM) for post-launch) is fine to a degree I suppose, as long as the focus stays on what Pantheon will be at launch... I don't want people so excited about and thinking about what Pantheon will become months or years after it launches that they lose focus on how great it will be *at* launch....


    This post was edited by Aradune at December 23, 2015 5:14 PM PST
    • 999 posts
    December 23, 2015 5:44 PM PST

    In addition to new systems entirely, I'd like to see horizontal progression in the form of making older zones relevant.  I remember going to the basement in the Estate of Unrest and getting the random keys and seeing some of the random locked doors that you couldn't get into.  It would be neat if there would be zones such as Unrest that could make a return (and encourage lower level/higher level player mingling) and you ultimately could get to those previously inaccesible places. 

    So, perhaps, if a zone like Unrest existed in Terminus, in Pantheon terms, through the locked doors you could introduce horizontal content such as deeper portions of the mansion (or even an underground that had even more ghastly/demonic creatures) that had different skill sets that could be learned (using Pantheon's multi-mana system) and could only be lock picked by a master rogue and/or a tinkered tool.  And, if the level cap was 50 at launch, you could basically make "Unrest Underground" a new higher level dungeon within the already existing Unrest/Unrest Mansion.

    So, instead of always releasing new content/zones, I would like to see Pantheon include several inaccessible areas that have to be unlocked/discovered etc. through skills (perhaps mob learned, lockpicking, or perception?) and/or experience that would encourage players to congregate closer together instead of continually separating players further apart (see the ghost towns in many old EQ zones).

    As far as bards go, I'm glad to see you're taking your time with the design and not just rushing to include one for release.  The only suggestion I would make by implementing classes/races "late" though, is try to not create the Iksar-like issue where the Iksar necro with the innate regen had a "huge" advantage over its non-regen counterparts.  It almost punished the player for not waiting to Kunark to create the necro.

    • 18 posts
    December 23, 2015 6:03 PM PST

    This topic has been a great read.  I only played Vanguard for about 6 months after release (Bought a new PC for it too!) and I never really got into diplomacy.  I am a big fan of this horizontal progression that you guys have been discussing.  Something that gives me more ways to develop and get immersed in my character is a welcome idea.  I know that Aradune was talking about not getting excited about what the game will become months to years later, but it's really hard not too.  I've been playing a bit of EQ on the project 1999 server lately just dreaming about how Pantheon will improve upon the old design.  Once again, great read!  Looking forward to January's newsletter!  


    This post was edited by Scrago at December 23, 2015 6:04 PM PST
    • 122 posts
    December 23, 2015 9:25 PM PST

    Thanks for the reply! Also @Raidin, I really like that idea A LOT.

    • 1778 posts
    December 23, 2015 10:25 PM PST
    No problem Aradune. Thanks for the answer.
    • 22 posts
    December 29, 2015 4:57 AM PST

    Its easy enough for them to implement systems like this, that are similar, yet different without being sued.  I think we all would love to see something like the diplo system implemented.  Something new thats meaningful would be awesome along the same lines, or at least a mechanic, other than crafting/fighting that you can level, and that is important to the game world in one fashion or another.

     

    I know i've asked this question on facebook before, and it seems lots of people are onboard with this.  The biggest thing, is we got to remember, these things take time to develope ideas, concepts, mechanics, develope them, and implment them.

     

    I personally would like to see them, but i would not like to see them delay the games release.  I would rather see it being worked on after release if its not something already in the development plan.