Forums » The Shaman

Anyone else thinks Shaman should to be a class that can res?

    • 801 posts
    May 1, 2017 7:51 PM PDT

    Amsai said:

    I saw that to Xil. Good news I say. And looks like some hope for more support role type classes to get them as well from the wording. Because with Cleric and Shaman being confirmed as having rez, the "other" classes implies at least more than 1. Druid is almost definite. But that leaves room for at least 1 more if not more. I would hope support based roled like Enchanter or Bard? Possibly Necro seein how they are sort of masters of death magic?

    With Shaman, Cleric and Druid all having rez, that really is all that is needed because every group can have a healing class and be assured they have rez available.  I would really hate to see it diluted any further because then you really to take so much risk out of the game.

    • 7 posts
    May 4, 2017 12:50 AM PDT

    Good news although I do hope that it is in keeping with the class and the Shaman res is linked to spirits in some way.

    • 251 posts
    August 12, 2017 1:54 PM PDT

    Only Necromancy holds true sway over death.  The Shaman must beg the spirits, the Druid must beg the Fae, and the Cleric must beg their Gods.  A Necromancer begs of no one.

    • 129 posts
    August 28, 2017 4:40 PM PDT

    I think the Shamn, Cleric, and Druid must have equal a rez equal to each other.  There are only three races that can play a cleric, so those healers in the Shaman and Druid must equal the Cleric in the Rez.  Give them different ways of doing it, fine.  But I don't want my Shaman losing out to Clerics to get groups.

    • 18 posts
    November 13, 2017 7:38 PM PST

    Questaar said:

    I think the Shamn, Cleric, and Druid must have equal a rez equal to each other.  There are only three races that can play a cleric, so those healers in the Shaman and Druid must equal the Cleric in the Rez.  Give them different ways of doing it, fine.  But I don't want my Shaman losing out to Clerics to get groups.

     

    That's just the way it is.  Shaman, Druids sacrifice optimized groupability for being able to yolo solo everything.   

    Even if taken along in a healer role, Shaman and Druids will, and should, have more downtime associated as compared to a pure healing class, at the same gear level.  Sure, once the hybrid is decked they can hold their own.  But a decked out Cleric will just be better as a healer, period.

    Can't have all the cake, and eat it, too.  

     

     

    • 80 posts
    November 13, 2017 8:18 PM PST

    Wall said:

    That's just the way it is.  Shaman, Druids sacrifice optimized groupability for being able to yolo solo everything.   

    Even if taken along in a healer role, Shaman and Druids will, and should, have more downtime associated as compared to a pure healing class, at the same gear level.  Sure, once the hybrid is decked they can hold their own.  But a decked out Cleric will just be better as a healer, period.

    Can't have all the cake, and eat it, too. 

    First of, where exactly are you getting that information? Druids aren't even in the game yet, and Clerics and Shamans (tagged as healer/support, not hybrid) are still pretty basic and subject to change. Pantheon is not Everquest, nor should we hope it to be exactly like it. A single healer and tank being heavily favoured for groups isn't something we should aim for.

    As far as the argument of being able to "solo everything", assuming it ends up being somewhat true, seem like a pointless argument for a group oriented game. Hardly anyone is going to pick up this game and think to themselves: "I'm totally going to pick the best soloer, at the expense of being any worth to any decent group". If I wanted to solo I'd go play either a single player game, or any of the multitude of themepark MMO's out there.

     

    • 245 posts
    November 14, 2017 4:08 AM PST

    I should be reading more other class threads, nice stuff in them.
    I would see a shammy rezz, also as stated by invoking spirits. (/me has a legend of the seeker flashback) though...
    What if rezz has side effects? Do you actually limit rezzes to certain classes?
    I liked ZennExile summary.
    Different rezz effects too..
    Shaman rezz leaves the rezzed corpse with an evil spirit (uncontrolable movements, evil face)
    Summoner rezz leaves the rezzed corpse in a decayed state (slow movements, rotting face)
    Druid rezz leaves the rezzed corpse in a vegetative state (wriggling movements, woody face)
    Cleric rezz leaves the rezzed corpse in a numb state (no movement, shorter duration, ashen face)
    Necromancer rezz leaves the rezzed corpse in an undead state (clawing movements, spooky voice, skelly face)

    • 18 posts
    November 14, 2017 8:59 AM PST

    Menubrea said:

    First of, where exactly are you getting that information? Druids aren't even in the game yet, and Clerics and Shamans (tagged as healer/support, not hybrid) are still pretty basic and subject to change. Pantheon is not Everquest, nor should we hope it to be exactly like it. A single healer and tank being heavily favoured for groups isn't something we should aim for.

    As far as the argument of being able to "solo everything", assuming it ends up being somewhat true, seem like a pointless argument for a group oriented game. Hardly anyone is going to pick up this game and think to themselves: "I'm totally going to pick the best soloer, at the expense of being any worth to any decent group". If I wanted to solo I'd go play either a single player game, or any of the multitude of themepark MMO's out there.

     

     

    Of course we are just speculating and giving our two cents, or our wishes.  My information comes from what I remember game types that Pantheon is allegedly returning to - moving away from themepark solo play land, everyone can do everything, and more towards positively reinforcing group synergy. 

    So in order to make group synergy a thing, the classes must compliment each other in such a way that the sum of the group is more powerful than the sum of each part.  So, if we take the holy trinity of Heal, Tank and Damage as our axes of capability, along that 3 dimensional space we can image a set of classes that are considered 'pure'  - aka purely DPS, pure Tank or pure Healer - we would expect that these three classes are pretty poor at performing the other two roles accordingly.  A hybrid type class would therefore by definition be located somewhat down the line on two of the axes.  Healer/Tank or Healer/Dps or Tank/Dps.  And again each of these would perform that third role poorly.   In this case we would expect these 2dimensional hybrids to do those two things well, but not as good as the pure classes.  Furthermore, we can imagine a 3 dimensional hybrid - one that can perform all roles.  Each of these roles however should be even poorer as compared to the 2 dimensional hybrids, and of course then relatively even more poor compared to the pure classes.

    It really can't be any other way, or else you have a group dynamic that is not necessarily synergistic.   If the 3 dimensional hybrid can perform so well that you can step into a dungeon and be successful with a group of all 3 dimensional hybrids, well then you have no synergy at all.  The only acceptable outcome in this case would be that sure, you can do some content, but you're going to be slower than a min-max setup of mostly pure classes with a few support hybrids brought in for buff completeness.

    Looking around at the Shaman and Druid forums, it appears that some people want them to tank, some want them to heal, some want them to dps.   If all of that were true, then that would make them 3 dimensional hybrids, and by definition, poor performers compared to the 'pure' classes and 2 dimensional hybrids.

    Realize please of course this is all conceptual.  We don't know for sure along which of these axes the classes will land.  Perhaps there will be no true pure classes.  Hopefully none of them are in the exact same spots on those axes , perhaps have similar ratios - for instance two classes could be Healer/Dps 2 dimensional type hybrids, but I would hope that one would be better at one of those roles, but worse than the other, and vice versa.  I think that it wouldn't be as fun of a game to play if it wasn't the case.  Part of the immersion and experience that I loved was knowing that class A was a beast compared to other classes in one role. 

    So group composition, in my perfect world, would probably be 1 of each of the pure classes, then the rest of the spots get filled with situational hybrids, either 2 or 3 dimensional.  The trick then beyond deciding which archtypes to bring, is to balance utility among the classes to fill those spots.

    If both Cleric and Shaman are defined as Healer + Support, then they are both 2 D hybrids, and I would expect one of the two to be better at one of those roles, and worse at the other, and vice versa.  Perhaps each of their 'support' roles are actually on different secondary axes - for example the Shaman is Healer and DPS, while the Cleric is Healer and Tank/add management.  So the comparison is invalid. 

    I would prefer the Cleric be Pure healer, though, and hope that one of the classes fills that role.  That's where I will be playing.  If that ends up being the Druid, then so be it - that's where I will want to be.  I can't see druid fans being happy with that, though. 

     

    • 1151 posts
    November 14, 2017 7:04 PM PST

    All the healers need to be fairly near the same in their healing throughput in whichever way they go about it, situationally one might edge out the others a bit for specific content. If clerics (or any) are the best healers then they will be the #1 pick when filling the role 9 times out of 10 for groups, raids will just get enough of the others for whatever unique thing they can offer then load up on clerics. That high favoring doubles down if they are the only ones with resurrect or the ones with the highest experience restoring resurrect. No one wants to settle for a lesser xp rez when leveling takes a long time, raiders especially will not accept the lesser and as such would further be influenced to stack raids with many clerics to aid in wipe recovery. So to that end I would really prefer to see Shaman get a rez ability on par with Cleric (Druid should have the same). 

     

    I'm going to quote Menubrea from a cleric thread surrounding resurrect/class strengths, I felt it cut to the heart of the issue very well and I believe it fits this discussion:

    Menubrea said:

    The approach, I think, should be to offer Clerics greater variety in what they do, rather than depriving other healing classes essential tools to perform their primary role.

    The logic around here seems to be that since Clerics don't do much beside healing, no other should be able to rival the class (since other classes have more depth). So instead of looking for ways to improve the Cleric overall experience, the thought is to relegate the Cleric to being healbots, while at the same time limit group variation due to having a clearly superior option when it comes to filling the healer role, both in terms of throughput and the ability to ressurect dead team-mates. Which will no doubt play a big part in this game's design.

    ...

    I just don't think it has to be all that black and white. Variance, flavour and even imbalance is something we should allow and even encourage. What I think is important, however, is where you choose to allow those imbalances to happen. No class within the same role should have exclusive rights to abilities that automatically makes them the most attractive choice to any group composition. Situationally, sure. No problem with that, but if it ends up with a scenario where you have the choice between a Druid and a Cleric, and you end up picking the Cleric 10 out of 10 times, I think there's a design issue.

    There are other ways to make classes from within the same role stand out from eachother. Not only from a healing perspective, but also from secondary role, and thematical abilities. For instance, you could have one healer specializing in direct healing, making the better choice for burst damage. Another one for healing over time, making them much less suited for burst, but overall either more mana efficient healing or potential throughput. Lastly you could have one specializing in area of effect healing, making them the superior choice for areas where damage is heavily spread out.

    You could also differentiate them by what type of buff/utility they provide. Such as Defensive buffs, movement/regen, offensive stat buffs. Or even offtanking/minor CC/debuffs. You can also differentiate by allowing them to excel against certain mob types or conditions. Such as being outside or fighting undead.

    These are examples on how I think it's possible to allow all classes within the same role situationally excel, without either limiting their own or others ability to perform their role at a general level. Making such a high value utility spell as the ability to ressurect dead team-mates exclusive to one, I think is the exact opposite of that.


    This post was edited by Iksar at November 14, 2017 7:06 PM PST
    • 33 posts
    November 21, 2017 12:26 PM PST

    Since Shaman and Druids both have SOW and powerful DOTs, and now rez (which is typically the hallmark of the Cleric and Paladin), maybe they give Clerics SOW and DOTs, as well?  Being able to rez was one of two things that made Cleric and Paladins special.  For clerics, the other thing that made it special was complete heal, and we know that complete heal will not be in the game. 

     

    • 801 posts
    November 21, 2017 7:58 PM PST

    metteec said:

    Since Shaman and Druids both have SOW and powerful DOTs, and now rez (which is typically the hallmark of the Cleric and Paladin), maybe they give Clerics SOW and DOTs, as well?  Being able to rez was one of two things that made Cleric and Paladins special.  For clerics, the other thing that made it special was complete heal, and we know that complete heal will not be in the game. 

     



    It isn't that Shaman and Druids 'now' have rez, Brad stated it was always intended that all three priest classes would 1) have resurrection and 2) have equal healing 'power'.  Brad said that classes of the same archetype would perform their primary job equally.  Tank classes will all tank equally, all priests will heal/rez equally, etc.

    We already know that the Shaman will have buffs, debuffs and dots.  Alot of the same utility it had in EQ1.  It will be a very strong class.  The Cleric does need enough to make it worth playing and I think that will come through decent melee DPS and incredible damage vs undead*.  I fully expect Clerics will have similar buff lines to what we saw in EQ1, that being pure HP and AC buffs and probably alot of cure spells for good utility.