Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Maps of various kinds

    • 409 posts
    December 9, 2015 11:03 AM PST

    If I zoned into LGuk right now, I'd know my way around without a map. Heck, minus the maze portion, I still know my way around Skyshrine without map (tested this year). The map system such as it is even now in EQ1 is still so bad it's better to just learn your way around.

    No maps. Please. We'll all be just fine without them.

    • 79 posts
    December 10, 2015 4:57 PM PST

    Rint said:

    Canno said:

    Cartography is nice and all, but all that will happen with that is people will just find it online and never use or buy products from that skill, other than for immesion/roleplay reasons.

     

    Hi Canno -

    Most map making tools outside of the game rely on the logging feature of the game. A player will enable logging so it creates a log file for him to analyze and then he will have it capture /loc or some other variant command that his mapping tool can use to create a map, but if the Pantheon developers removed the /loc option from logging it would severely hinder or stop completely the ability to make maps with 3rd party tools (at least short term...) and it would require most people to utilize in-game maps made through Cartography.

    With that said, I’m a community first kind of player and I honestly hope that 3rd party maps are available from Pantheon Fan Sites because it just increase the community reach and quite honestly gives people things to do. When EQAtlas was the only place to go for maps I would often download the map I needed and then add additional information to it to increase the accuracy, and then I would repost it for others to use in my guild or random forums.

     

    Rint

     

    I'm aware of how maps are made, but thanks ;) Early EQ and many non-MMO games people hand drew the maps on graph paper and uploaded scans of them for everyone (or guild) to use, even with a cartography skill it wouldn't take long for things to be mapped and the info loaded to 3rd party places.

    I'd  just prefer to see dev time go towards things that would have a more lasting impact than something like cartography, unless they can tie it in to a real in-game benefit. For instance, I can make and sell a map that has a unique or random adventure marked on it (dungeon, mob, whatever). That would make cartography a viable skill and worth developer time (imo) - players would pursue it as a way to make money or add value to their group/guild.

    Simply having cartography and maps in game just to show us where stuff is old thinking and we need fresh ideas.

     

    I'm also a big community person, I spent a couple years volunteer and leading a community department for an MMO, I think fan sites are very valuable but they are more rare now - most of what's out there tends to be business sites like the ZAM network. Not that there's anything wrong with that, the principle is the same, it just relies a little more on the popularity of the game and attracting the right people to promote the game because they enjoy it. 

     

    • 79 posts
    December 10, 2015 4:58 PM PST

    Venjenz said:

    If I zoned into LGuk right now, I'd know my way around without a map. Heck, minus the maze portion, I still know my way around Skyshrine without map (tested this year). The map system such as it is even now in EQ1 is still so bad it's better to just learn your way around.

    No maps. Please. We'll all be just fine without them.

     

    Yeah try finding your way around some of the crappy revamped zones like Freeport. ;) I actively avoid going there now.. nothing in there is worth it. :D

    • 11 posts
    April 30, 2017 1:28 PM PDT

    Ohhhh....I am an oldschool EQ player and I loved it and am looking forward to this game more than you can imagine....however, no maps in the early EQ game was my very definition of "needlessly tedious". Y=There should be some sort of map system in the game at least as a rudimentary reference to start off with.  Perhaps they can be filled in with more detail as adventuring in a zone progresses.  Running through zones spamming /LOC over and over again wasn't fun at all.

     

    • 11 posts
    April 30, 2017 1:50 PM PDT

    Mekada said:

    I want in-game maps with no GPS/indicators. I would love to be able to pin notes to those maps.

     

    I fail to see why everyone is so against this. It's basicly the same thing everyone seems willing to do outside the game with printed maps. But I want to avoid clutter of having a binder on my desk or having my second monitor high jacked by a mapping site. It would also keep imersion by having my character own the map instead of me, the player.

    This. I had a binder of maps for every continent and would really like to avoid having to do this again.  No GPS or mini map but built in basic maps of zones - preferably that we can make our own notes on.


    This post was edited by Cerendipity at April 30, 2017 1:56 PM PDT
    • 12 posts
    April 30, 2017 2:17 PM PDT

    I got more satisfaction out of Everquest by not having maps. Whenever I entered a new zone, I would have to blindly wander around trying to figure out where I was going, or have to get directions from someone. This would force you to be more social. As a more experienced player in that zone, you would be given the opportunity to help n00bs figure out where to go. I can still remember how to get from Upper Guk to Lower Guk just from memory and landmarks. If I try to look at the map now and make it down there, I get lost haha.

    Ultimately, I like the sense of accomplishment from memorizing and learning the areas and shortcuts. I also like the social aspect of having to interact with other players to get directions. For these reasons, I would prefer there were no maps in game.

    • 73 posts
    April 30, 2017 2:35 PM PDT

    Kilsin,

    I echo the thoughts of my fellow players who believe at best with limited mapping.  I truly think a cartography system would be awesome flavor to the game, but if we did, I'd want it to be a mini-game.  Cartography skills, tools (crafted, found, even raided?) making it a true craft skill to focus on, selling and trading maps of specific dungeon floors, etc to avoid getting lost in the underwater dungeon.  The danger of a Cartography skill akin to Swimming, accessible to all means it's just an artificial barrier removed once I travel somewhere the first time, or level high enough to map the valley and never worry about it again.  If the design goal is that of paying attention to landmarks in overland travel and listening out in the world for Perception cues, players should not be in mini-maps.

    I do think, the community will fix this.  There will be online maps.  People will do what we did before there were true, precise in-game maps and create their own.  And, if you design some sub-system or craft based on it, (with increasing quality, ability to put notes, increasing ingredients/ink/colors) with some perishability to it, people might decide to purchase an updated map of Amberfaet for tonight's group dungeon crawl, or decide they don't need it, and just explore.  It should be noted, Cartography probably isn't cheap.  It isn't just drawing and takes real skill.  Where one map might show that alcove you can duck the wind, another is just a vague hallway because it's an unskilled person.  Dark Myr could perhaps also have maps that survive underwater, and maps in general attune to acclimation.  Heat could damage mundane maps over time, requiring you to buy new ones if you continue going to the same places.

    R/

    Zain

    • 542 posts
    May 1, 2017 1:53 AM PDT

    Maybe maps can be counted amongst convenience features that do more harm than good if creating an exciting adventure is a goal?
    *Adventure* says it all - engage in hazardous and exciting activity,especially exploration of unknown territory

    Without maps,players might be more inclined to seek out other players for directions too?
    Having no maps might be win-win ,both for sense of adventure and for sense of community

    Zain60 beats me to it by suggesting acclimation might have an effect on cartography if there is going to be a skill to map places. In the necropolis town(undead) of Heroes of Might and Magic III there was a building called *Cover of darkness*

    The cover of darkness created a permanent shroud over the town for enemies.
    Where the enemy would move,the shroud would remove their visible path they had walked the day after.
    So the shroud regenerated each day.Just like that ,blizzards might wipe the path over time


    This post was edited by Fluffy at May 1, 2017 1:57 AM PDT
    • 9115 posts
    May 1, 2017 3:36 AM PDT

    Zain60 said:

    Kilsin,

    I echo the thoughts of my fellow players who believe at best with limited mapping.  I truly think a cartography system would be awesome flavor to the game, but if we did, I'd want it to be a mini-game.  Cartography skills, tools (crafted, found, even raided?) making it a true craft skill to focus on, selling and trading maps of specific dungeon floors, etc to avoid getting lost in the underwater dungeon.  The danger of a Cartography skill akin to Swimming, accessible to all means it's just an artificial barrier removed once I travel somewhere the first time, or level high enough to map the valley and never worry about it again.  If the design goal is that of paying attention to landmarks in overland travel and listening out in the world for Perception cues, players should not be in mini-maps.

    I do think, the community will fix this.  There will be online maps.  People will do what we did before there were true, precise in-game maps and create their own.  And, if you design some sub-system or craft based on it, (with increasing quality, ability to put notes, increasing ingredients/ink/colors) with some perishability to it, people might decide to purchase an updated map of Amberfaet for tonight's group dungeon crawl, or decide they don't need it, and just explore.  It should be noted, Cartography probably isn't cheap.  It isn't just drawing and takes real skill.  Where one map might show that alcove you can duck the wind, another is just a vague hallway because it's an unskilled person.  Dark Myr could perhaps also have maps that survive underwater, and maps in general attune to acclimation.  Heat could damage mundane maps over time, requiring you to buy new ones if you continue going to the same places.

    R/

    Zain

    If we can get something like that in and have the resources available we will consider it my friend, but for now we are focussing on the core systems, mechanics and features to get us into testing, this would be good to get feedback on from testers when you guys can get in-game :)

    • 483 posts
    May 1, 2017 3:51 AM PDT

    My opinion on ingame zone maps, there should be none. Players will make maps available online anyway, so building a system to create zone maps ingame seems like misused time at this stage of development. In addition having detailed ingame maps encourages thier use, and that's something VR doesn't want you to do.

    Also there will be an ingame atlas that gives you your rough position in the world.

    • 1468 posts
    May 1, 2017 4:50 AM PDT

    One of the things I'm really looking forward to about pre-alpha is that no one will know their way around and there will be no maps available online either. I think that will be pretty special getting into a group to do some testing of the game and at the same time also exploring to see what the world is like.

    As for maps later on in development I do tend to get lost easily but after a bit of time of running around zones you do tend to remember how to navigate. I find you tend to learn more about a zone if you have to memorise it. If you have a map you just look at that and forget how the zone is laid out.

    As long as there is a compass I'll be happy. I don't really mind either way about maps but would prefer them not to be in.

    • 3852 posts
    May 1, 2017 7:18 AM PDT

    >but for now we are focussing on the core systems, mechanics and features to get us into testing<

    Correctly so, of course.

    Extra features are nice, even assuming for the sake of argument that the features are 100% desired by everyone which seems not to be the case for mapping. But IMO one of the things that can kill the game outright are endless delays in getting to alpha/beta/release because of feature creep. The perfect is VERY much the enemy of the good and after a while enthusiasm goes away and people move on to the next great new thing. Features can be worked on while the public (and we here) are shown progress in moving ahead to prealpha, alpha, beta and release.

    The other thing related to features that can kill the game outright is trying to put too much in too soon and releasing a buggy, crashing game. Word of mouth is one of the few things known to travel faster than light.

    So as an enthusiastic supporter of maps I heartily agree that they are a far lower priority than moving ahead into testing and releasing a stable product when that blessed day arrives.

    • 19 posts
    May 1, 2017 7:39 AM PDT

    A simple map that could be brought up on screen, but without positional markers would be fine. Or make cartography/navigation a skill and you could have a positional marker with a greater degree of accuracy depending on your skill. 

    • 32 posts
    May 1, 2017 7:47 AM PDT

    no map fornow add it later :D and if u add a map make the map so you cant see yourself on it.

    • 123 posts
    May 1, 2017 8:22 AM PDT

    I think the real point is not getting maps or not, but getting /loc or not.

    Having no maps but getting a /loc is less of a challenge than having maps and getting no /loc, cause when you get on a website the coords of what you look for, there is absolutely no difficulty in getting there without a map. If there is no /loc, there is no way a website can give you an exact location of what you look for, it has to describe the way to find it by using visual references, and you have to look around ingame to find it ==> more interesting.

    So please guys, if you want to talk about challenge, ask for getting no /loc ingame, and stop asking for 'no maps' :).

    If there are no maps ingame, and if we get /loc, there will be maps out of the game very quickly, even during beta, and at release nearly all zones will get maps that everyone can print with locations of every point of interest. It kills exploration.

    What I'd like :

    • no /loc available ingame
    • each player getting its own book of maps, blank, that he has to fill himself manually (not automatically)
    • a mapmaking skill that players could grow to craft blank maps of zones they spent time in
    • the ability to add pin's or drawn zones on a blank map items manually
    • being able to duplicate maps
    • being able to trade maps

    It is simple, it requires intelligence from the player, it encourages social contacts, it does not kill exploration, it can also be good for ingame economy and also a good money sink by requiring expensive components to craft maps, I love it :).

     

    • 1714 posts
    May 1, 2017 8:30 AM PDT

    Venjenz said:

    If I zoned into LGuk right now, I'd know my way around without a map. Heck, minus the maze portion, I still know my way around Skyshrine without map (tested this year). The map system such as it is even now in EQ1 is still so bad it's better to just learn your way around.

    No maps. Please. We'll all be just fine without them.

     

    Amen

    • 93 posts
    May 1, 2017 10:05 AM PDT

    Narben4 said:

    i like  a map that is discovered as you progress.  this need not be particularly full of locations but it is a geographical image.  Eg i go walking my house down to the river, across the river at the shallow point on to a path between somes trees.  i get to a road i can see it goes east and west.  this should stay with me i should not unlearn this.  I have no idea if the road has a name but maybe if i keep walking there is a sign.

    i don't know how long the road is and only by following should i be able to discover that.

    insert cartography skill? allows me to mark items in rough detail at first then in more detail later on as i develop.

    I really do not like full maps laid out for you.  I do not like minimaps that bling and ping and glow so brightly i cannot see the world.  But as per initial thought i am not a goldfish that forgets whether i went right or left at the big rock and found the waterfall?

    ^^^^ this.  Well put.

    i used EQAtlas all the time but I hate it when, it becomes (almost) a necessity to have to rely on external sites for such things.  If it's going to eventually end up on some website, I'd just assume have it available in game.  I hate toggling in and out of game just to figure out how to get somewhere.

    like the poster quoted above, I don't want it to show me everything but basic geological landmarks like rivers or a mountain range - once I have discovered it by going there myself once - is what I'd like to see, personally.

     

    • 902 posts
    May 1, 2017 11:15 AM PDT

    I dont see why we couldnt have an in game map that was purchased from a vendor that gave the local area and some of the more prominent natural features, mountains, woods, rivers along with city and town locations. I see these as hand drawn and not necessarily to scale or pixel perfect. I would be great to be able to "write" on these maps and place our own marks and scribbles (maybe limiting the number of marks that can be placed). Cartographer NPCs could provide a wide variety (and quality) of maps that players could buy and prove to be useful but not overly detailed.

    Even though a mini map is useful, it does distract from the visuals of the game and player end up looking more at it than the scenery around them. It is over powered when it shows all crafting nodes, mobs and NPCs. Or tie it to the perception system so as you get better, you get more info. All in all, I think we could do without a mini-map, though.

    I dont want to be hand held with everything, however, I also dont want to have to alt+tab to wiki to know in which direction I should be headed when I get stuck and in a game like this, and I know I will get stuck. I dont want a trail of footprints to follow, but I would like some kind of idea of where to go and what to expect before I get there. If you dont have a map in game, it will be produced outside. This version will be very detailed and will end up as a step by step progression list. If we have in game maps that offer some help but not everything, then I think people will use wiki much less when playing which will keep the player immersed.

    I would like an in game atlas that I could add pages to as I attained maps and the like. Maybe it could be a skill that you train up, where after you venture through an area, you scribe your journey and the map is drawn and added to the atlas. This would obviously be rough when you start, but as you gain skills, it could be more accurate and show more detail of the environment?


    This post was edited by chenzeme at May 1, 2017 11:17 AM PDT
    • 119 posts
    May 1, 2017 2:57 PM PDT

    Khendall said:I think the real point is not getting maps or not, but getting /loc or not.

    /loc is needed to remember the position of your corpse. if we need corpse runs and have no way to get our location while dying, there'd be too much frustration. first thing i learned in EQ was to always get a /loc when dying.

    • 1618 posts
    May 1, 2017 5:15 PM PDT

    letsdance said:

    Khendall said:I think the real point is not getting maps or not, but getting /loc or not.

    /loc is needed to remember the position of your corpse. if we need corpse runs and have no way to get our location while dying, there'd be too much frustration. first thing i learned in EQ was to always get a /loc when dying.

    Good luck explaining to someone where your corpse is without /loc. 

    Run fir 1 minute, take a left at the tree, take a right off the paved road. If you see the velocichicken, you have gone too far.

    • 73 posts
    May 1, 2017 5:36 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Zain60 said:

    Kilsin,

    I echo the thoughts of my fellow players who believe at best with limited mapping.  I truly think a cartography system would be awesome flavor to the game, but if we did, I'd want it to be a mini-game.  Cartography skills, tools (crafted, found, even raided?) making it a true craft skill to focus on, selling and trading maps of specific dungeon floors, etc to avoid getting lost in the underwater dungeon.  The danger of a Cartography skill akin to Swimming, accessible to all means it's just an artificial barrier removed once I travel somewhere the first time, or level high enough to map the valley and never worry about it again.  If the design goal is that of paying attention to landmarks in overland travel and listening out in the world for Perception cues, players should not be in mini-maps.

    I do think, the community will fix this.  There will be online maps.  People will do what we did before there were true, precise in-game maps and create their own.  And, if you design some sub-system or craft based on it, (with increasing quality, ability to put notes, increasing ingredients/ink/colors) with some perishability to it, people might decide to purchase an updated map of Amberfaet for tonight's group dungeon crawl, or decide they don't need it, and just explore.  It should be noted, Cartography probably isn't cheap.  It isn't just drawing and takes real skill.  Where one map might show that alcove you can duck the wind, another is just a vague hallway because it's an unskilled person.  Dark Myr could perhaps also have maps that survive underwater, and maps in general attune to acclimation.  Heat could damage mundane maps over time, requiring you to buy new ones if you continue going to the same places.

    R/

    Zain

    If we can get something like that in and have the resources available we will consider it my friend, but for now we are focussing on the core systems, mechanics and features to get us into testing, this would be good to get feedback on from testers when you guys can get in-game :)

     

    Kilsin, I whole-heartedly agree.  As a tester, I would prefer you focus on the game and start with zero maps.  A cartography skill would be flavorful and believable to introduce later in the game anyway if it was something you wanted to have.  However, if it's "what variation of maps/no-maps do you want" my answer stands.  If it's "would you prefer to see in-game mapping at start or not" I'd say "not unless it's a player crafted skill."  I'd prefer the characters get deep and rich crafting in the traditional means first though.  Have to at least make armor and weapons and arrows!

    • 220 posts
    May 1, 2017 8:13 PM PDT
    Community drawn maps unavailable in game. I stare at maps in an overlay ignoring the world making travel seem faster. Currently, I am more interested in the journey tho.
    • 238 posts
    May 1, 2017 8:44 PM PDT
    The problem with in game maps is it defines the limits of a zone. When you originally ran through a eq1 zone you had no idea how far from the edge or end of the zone so it let your imagination fill it in. Maybe it was over the next hill or maybe the next ten hills, you had no idea and would need to explore. After i downloaded maps like everyone else that part was forever gone. Everything felt very small from then on even if it was larger mathematically. Id go into a zone, open the map and instantly know the metrics of the zone.


    I could go for a very zoomed out basic map that showed the entire continental land mass with no indications of your location. Something that let you know that if you wanted to go fron Qeynos to Freeport you needed to go East and the rest was up to you.
    • 187 posts
    May 1, 2017 8:58 PM PDT

    The last tenant of Pantheon focuses on the importance of engaging the world. I think there is no better path to environmental immersion than relying on your own spatiotemporal memory to truly learn the lay of the land. This memory mechanism has been vital in the survival of our species and is a core function of being a Homosapien. I don't think the exclusion of an internal map system is due to a lack of effort - it's more likely trying to satisfy an aspect of this very important tenant by utilizing our own innate desire to mentally map worlds.


    This post was edited by Syntro at May 1, 2017 9:21 PM PDT
    • 416 posts
    May 1, 2017 9:15 PM PDT

    I'm very glad there will be no mini map. But I would really like there to be a cartography skill that creates a map as you explore. The better your skill the more detailed the map. Or a more complicated system as some others have put forth if development resources allow. But in any case, it is just a map, not a gps, does not show your location on the map. Also, for cities, it would make sense to be able to purchase a map from a vendor.