disposalist said:Even if the site were designed carefully for that to be true (and that's not a priority - quite the opposite - in my experience) the maps themselves are huge spoilers. You might just want to know whether the mountain you're looking at is west or east because the recent combat turned you around, but you look at the map and are told the numbered location of every POI and NPC in the region. Even knowing there something notable *exists* is often a spoiler. You look for the mountain landmark and see there is hidden cave marked that only someone using Perception who'd gone all that way exploring should have found. You look to see where you think you are and the forest you're in has an orc bandit ambush marked that you were about to stumble into. Doh.
This literally only happened with EQ. I cannot think of a single other game that I ACTUALLY "STUMBLED" upon maps that were numbered etc.
I get that you are against it, but you're definitely taking this over the top.
Mind you, I prefer maps in game. But this isn't the argument to use for them.
I know its probably too late for any concrete changes but I just wanted to express my opinion. I feel that there is no difference of me looking at a map online and a map in game without the GPS function other than the hassle of maintaining multiple windows and alt tabing back and forth depending on how friendly the game is when minimized. I fail to understand all the desire to do away with maps. I mean explorers traditionally used maps in real world exploration where available and made maps as they explored if they did not exist. How can it be better exploration without maps? Eventually its all going to be discovered and posted online. Do the first few weeks or months really matter that much? Ok well then give it a few months and put maps in.
just my two cp for what its worth. =)
Borumber said:I know its probably too late for any concrete changes but I just wanted to express my opinion. I feel that there is no difference of me looking at a map online and a map in game without the GPS function other than the hassle of maintaining multiple windows and alt tabing back and forth depending on how friendly the game is when minimized. I fail to understand all the desire to do away with maps. I mean explorers traditionally used maps in real world exploration where available and made maps as they explored if they did not exist. How can it be better exploration without maps? Eventually its all going to be discovered and posted online. Do the first few weeks or months really matter that much? Ok well then give it a few months and put maps in.
just my two cp for what its worth. =)
There is a difference. I know a lot of people like to sum it up like it had no difference at all, for the sake of "Well since it's the same why not mix it", but the idea behind maps not beeing ingame means there is no prefab map made to be the exact reflect of size, distances and position of things. That means any map hand made will possibly reflect errors, clumsy things and enough overall difference for it not be be recognized by the brain and the eye as "The same exact thing", which will make it a "map" and not a "satellite view".
Also you will not see your own position, except by using coordinates and grid mapping, which will remain "an average position".
Withouth a strict compass, you will also not have the exact direction you are facing, meaning if it works like it did in EQ (sense heading), the cardinal points will be broken in eight slices of 45°, which means you will not be sure you are facing the direction you obtained, but somehow up to 22.5° at left or right.
All theses disconnections, are what disconnect the map from beeing an evident easy tool to a tool requiring concentration, a look away from the action, and a delay of understanding. Pretty much like an IRL map, and thus, make it more a tool you manage to learn to use and perfect, than an inbuilt system so easy even a cow could read it.
@MauvaisOeil - I have to disagree with you on the cartography point. Maps in EQ were 100% exact and they will be again in Pantheon. The devs answered in one of Cohh's streams that /loc is in the game. You would never map something out using your compass. You go around the outside of the zone spamming /loc, load the chat log as cartesian coordinates to get the outline of the map, then just get a /loc for each notable location, npc, spawn point, etc. and you're done. Locating your position on the map involves some error, but if you know the /loc of your target, you just have to use the map to get close anyways.
The natural extension of this system is a downloadable 3rd party program that reads your chat log and provides you a GPS map with all the bells and whistles. I don't see any reason why this won't exist. It will probably be paired with whatever the popular combat parser is given that they both work by reading and filtering your logs. Then there's no more error at all and a cow could read it :).
I think it’s a huge mistake for VR to not include cartography as a craft/skill. For people that think an ”eqmaps” type site builds community you couldn’t be more wrong. Some people have a great memory for ”the lay of the land” and some don’t. Those that don’t will need/make/buy/use maps. Playing the game builds community. Talking with other players, builds community. This idea of “hey, just learn it” won’t work for some people. Trading info in game builds community. Immersion. That’s why we want a grouping game. Being with other people. If the only place I can learn about Terminus is pantheonmaps, that’s a failure to me. Loading a third party app with maps will “likely?” be in game. Or Pantheonmaps will. Make cartography work. Give players another reason to talk to each other. If VR expects people to scour other websites to be able to play Pantheon that’s a huge mistake to me.
Ainadak said:@MauvaisOeil - I have to disagree with you on the cartography point. Maps in EQ were 100% exact and they will be again in Pantheon. The devs answered in one of Cohh's streams that /loc is in the game. You would never map something out using your compass. You go around the outside of the zone spamming /loc, load the chat log as cartesian coordinates to get the outline of the map, then just get a /loc for each notable location, npc, spawn point, etc. and you're done. Locating your position on the map involves some error, but if you know the /loc of your target, you just have to use the map to get close anyways.
The natural extension of this system is a downloadable 3rd party program that reads your chat log and provides you a GPS map with all the bells and whistles. I don't see any reason why this won't exist. It will probably be paired with whatever the popular combat parser is given that they both work by reading and filtering your logs. Then there's no more error at all and a cow could read it :).
There were great but weren't 100% exact, that's simply enough to make it a map and not a sattelite view as I said. Well I guess this subject is not going to rally everyone, anyway most debates tend to be 50/50 so we're never reaching a concensus.
Not sure about 3rd party if all you can do it read your manual /loc, but technology changed so much I'm not certain about anything about it.
Borumber said:I feel that there is no difference of me looking at a map online and a map in game without the GPS function other than the hassle of maintaining multiple windows and alt tabing back and forth depending on how friendly the game is when minimized. I fail to understand all the desire to do away with maps. I mean explorers traditionally used maps in real world exploration where available and made maps as they explored if they did not exist. How can it be better exploration without maps? Eventually its all going to be discovered and posted online. Do the first few weeks or months really matter that much? Ok well then give it a few months and put maps in.
I think there's a huge difference between internal and external maps. If the map is super convenient to open and close, or even keep open at all times, it'll become a crutch that you'll instinctively check all the time to make sure you're where you want to be. If you have to mess with multiple desktop windows you're more likely to only use it if you feel lost, or not use it at all.
Just because the internet will have tons of information about Terminus doesn't mean that VR might as well put it all into the game for everybody's convenience. What you're saying about maps, could be said about many things, including the more difficult encounters. Many people will definitely read everything they can find about the likes of Fion before engaging her, including instructions on how to beat her, and I do realize that one of them is likely to be in my PUG, but does that mean VR could build that information into the game without ruining anything? Of course not.
Your analogy with real-life explorers is invalidated by the fact that in the game everybody is potentionally an explorer. Charting Terminus for your fellow players as you go along may be considered helpful by some, but it's also spoiling some of the fun for others.
Personally, I would welcome a crude in-game map slowly revealing the parts of the world that I have been to, preferably allowing me to mark and annotate my own points-of-interest, but that's all. It would minimize the temptation to use 3rd-party maps.
Jabir said:Many people will definitely read everything they can find about the likes of Fion before engaging her, including instructions on how to beat her, and I do realize that one of them is likely to be in my PUG
Not reading up on an already beaten encounter before attempting it is just lazy and rude to your group.
Spluffen said:Not reading up on an already beaten encounter before attempting it is just lazy and rude to your group.
Excuse me? How can a few minutes of reading on a web site represent less laziness than working out a solution in-game? If somebody in the group knows how to beat the encounter, so be it and I will listen carefully. But please don't tell me I'm rude for wanting to play the game the way it was designed.
Jabir said:Excuse me? How can a few minutes of reading on a web site represent less laziness than working out a solution in-game? If somebody in the group knows how to beat the encounter, so be it and I will listen carefully. But please don't tell me I'm rude for wanting to play the game the way it was designed.
Tell that to the party when you wipe your group for no reason other than muhhh-immersion
Jabir said:Spluffen said:Not reading up on an already beaten encounter before attempting it is just lazy and rude to your group.
Excuse me? How can a few minutes of reading on a web site represent less laziness than working out a solution in-game? If somebody in the group knows how to beat the encounter, so be it and I will listen carefully. But please don't tell me I'm rude for wanting to play the game the way it was designed.
I agree
Rarely, if ever, will I look up a guide on how to clear an encounter. I will listen to any in game advice from people who have done it before but I'm not going to read/watch a guide. However, after I have tried it a few times I might check out a guide to see how other people do it.
@Spluffen
I honestly cannot remember ever having caused a wipe singlehandedly, but never mind that. At first, I thought you were just jerking my chain at little, but now I see that you seriously believe that all secrets in the game are only there for a few to discover and the rest to read about. This leads nowhere...
I seriously believe in preparing for my dungeon runs, especially if I'm unfamiliar with them, yes.
Edit: Good luck writing a guild application where you state "I like secrets so I'm intentionally clueless and you guys will have to carry me".
((Not reading up on an already beaten encounter before attempting it is just lazy and rude to your group.))
Harsh - very harsh.
Anyone that doesn't do it *your* way is both lazy and rude.
There are very few things in life where there is only one acceptable way to do things and anyone that doesn't follow that norm should be called names.
This is not one of them.
I think being against maps is perfectly normal. I for one don't like maps in game because it will cause that convience for me. Kind of like how grocery stores set up their food. Psychologically if the food is set up in a certain way people buy more. Usually have most of the wants on both the left and the right and then some wants in the middle and towards the wall. This causes people to usually start from the right and move across to the middle so that they have more of a chance to pick up something that isn't a want, giving the store more income.
So having a map in game comes down to psychology pretty much. If it is there I will use it. It is just too convenient not to. However, if it isn't there then I will likely not care to use an outside map. I was pretty good at navigating EQ without a map for a while. Made me pay more attention to details of my surroundings. But with a map in game I know I would use because it simply because it is in the game.
dorotea said:((Not reading up on an already beaten encounter before attempting it is just lazy and rude to your group.))
Harsh - very harsh.
Anyone that doesn't do it *your* way is both lazy and rude.
There are very few things in life where there is only one acceptable way to do things and anyone that doesn't follow that norm should be called names.
This is not one of them.
I don't mean to be harsh, its something I've done myself and then felt bad over. And that was even in vanilla wow where the death penalty for anyone who isn't the tank is just time. I'm not calling anyone names, all I'm saying is that it's common courtesy. My own immersion is a very weak argument for causing a wipe, having the whole group lose XP and ultimately wasting time for everyone. I expect me and the rest of the party to do our best, that includes preemptive measures such as simply looking up mechanics.
@Spluffen,
Immersion is not a weak argument at all. For many people that is the entire reason they invest the time/money in the game.
I get no stimulation out of a boss encounter if I look up a guide before hand and just regurgitate what they say I should do. I'm fine with a group memeber that has completed the encounter explaining it before a fight because I kinda know what to expect but it is still new and exciting while it is happening. If I am new to a boss encounter and mess up, so what? Odds are I would mess up even if I studied a guide... And like others have said, 1 person usually cant cause an entire wipe, unless its some cheap boss mechanic anyway.
Getting back on topic, I would be happy if there were no in game maps, but I could see potential for added content if they made maps something you could get later on through relatively lengthly quests.
I guess to clarify my wishes. I just want something that shows general layout of areas. I dont care if it shows me exactly where i am in the zone. Also dont care if there is a map for every zone. Maybe just the major ones to aid in travel. I am just someone who gets constantly lost in games. I still get lost running around p99 and i played EQ for six years. I can navigate compass courses in the real world but I have little skill nagivating virtual environments lol