Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Maps of various kinds

    • 2752 posts
    March 29, 2018 3:55 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Except it's not always about advantage or disadvantage.  I don't care about 'advantage' I care about enjoying the game.

    I don't want to have either nothing or wikis-packed-with-spoilers-and-ads and nothing in-between. Brad et al have also stated that they want to encourage people to explore. Leaving it to Wikis will not encourage exploration, it will give people A-to-B routes to run even when they've never been to a region. It will mean they know exactly where to go for every quest and Perception pop-up and boss monster and loot drop with no need for them to explore whatsoever.

    In role-playing and plain common sense terms it is a nonsense that you couldn't get some kind of map from the locals in an area to help stop you getting lost and to provide some small cues as to where interesting stuff or at least landmarks might be, but it is much worse for the only alternative to leave the game for maps that show you every little secret in the region at the touch of a button.

    This is not a case of 'community involvement' being just as good as a developed solution.

    That's fairly extremist, wikis and databases might be packed with spoilers within the pages but you don't have to navigate to those (let alone read them) to get to maps. You can go to WoW wiki pages or the biggest and most used database (wowhead) and navigate to maps without any spoiled content whatsoever. 

     

    Those interested in doing exploration for themselves probably won't be looking up maps, preferring instead to level perception and explore each new zone as they enter to learn it and make mental notes. Having an on-demand map that reveals itself as parts are traveled isn't really encouraging exploration so much as it encourages running around to fill in the blanks. Alternatively I imagine there will be plenty of minimalistic maps (in addition to whatever data heavy maps that exist), which is the equivalent of getting a map from another adventurer. I don't think it would be nonsense at all to figure locals in an area would not have maps of an area for every player (maybe they could have A map within the local inn/tavern that players can look at on the wall but not take with them), and it would be exceptionally unlikely they would have maps of local hostile dungeons/lands. 

     

    If they do end up caving and adding maps I hope they take up inventory space as well as have a small "cast" (unfold/unfurl) time...and should only be able to be used while stationary & otherwise unengaged. Immersion.

    • 1618 posts
    March 29, 2018 4:46 PM PDT

    Iksar said: 

    Those interested in doing exploration for themselves probably won't be looking up maps, preferring instead to level perception and explore each new zone as they enter to learn it and make mental notes. Having an on-demand map that reveals itself as parts are traveled isn't really encouraging exploration so much as it encourages running around to fill in the blanks. Alternatively I imagine there will be plenty of minimalistic maps (in addition to whatever data heavy maps that exist), which is the equivalent of getting a map from another adventurer. I don't think it would be nonsense at all to figure locals in an area would not have maps of an area for every player (maybe they could have A map within the local inn/tavern that players can look at on the wall but not take with them), and it would be exceptionally unlikely they would have maps of local hostile dungeons/lands. 

    In EQ2, which had this system. I would purposefully run  around every zone just to fill in the map. Especially after they added achieveme for hitting all the POIs in a zone.

    It was fun,  it I would rather not see it in Pantheon.

    • 54 posts
    April 3, 2018 5:11 PM PDT

    No maps in game it okay by me.  But, if they do have maps, they should be very simple with no dot representing the player.  Just a map like you might pull out in real life and try to figure out where you are and the best way to get to where you want to be.

    I am playing another MMO in alpha right now.  It has maps with a character symbol on the map that shows you moving and which way you are facing.  When that was in the game I stared at the mini map a lot when I was moving around.  Then they added fog of war to the maps in a patch and the map with the nice character dot was gone.  All of a sudden I found I was paying WAY more attention to the landscape and using landmarks to find my way.  It felt much more like I was immersed in the world and paying attention to details rather then staring at a mini map and just occasionally glancing at the map as I travelled.  I was suprised at the difference.

    Being in a new zone for the first time, with no map, or even a simple drawn map, was a challenge.  I remember relying on other players a lot when I hit a new zone, and following them to places to fight.  I was always so afraid I would get lost.  Especially in zones higher level than you, it added a real sense of dread to the game, that death was around every corner.  Eventually I learned all the ins and outs of those zones and knew all the blind corners or secret spots and where the mobs pathed, etc.  As you got to know the zone more, it became a lot easier to move around and fight in the zone.  I much prefer this experience to having a map that gives me all that information. 

    I don't want the easy mode of navigation, I want an unkown world that I have to discover, where I have to rely on other players when I am new there and where eventually I will be the one helping other people learns the ropes in a new zone or dungeon.


    This post was edited by Arbeor at April 3, 2018 5:14 PM PDT
    • 441 posts
    April 20, 2018 8:37 AM PDT

    In the new stream I love the map idea they talked about. Great balance of keeping it modern but not giving us a map that tells all. I have always wanted a map I can add notes to, highlight things I see or where I want to goto next. I hope you add it. 

    • 411 posts
    April 20, 2018 9:51 AM PDT

    I agree entirely Nanfoodle! The fact that they're actually implementing some version of cartography is really nice to hear. Hold on, my record just broke.... "Please don't include /loc in your game"... Nevermind, fixed it.

    Seriously though, I would have loved that feature in EQ and I'm sure that I'll love it in Pantheon.

    • 25 posts
    April 20, 2018 10:09 AM PDT

    In-game maps that show your location (or a compass feature) RUIN immersion.  If you can't get lost, are you really exploring? or just filling in the fog of war?

    I think you should be able to buy maps (or create them yourself via some skill), but it should be realistic.  They would be items that you have in you inventory that you have to stop and look at, distracting you from all other activities.  The 10 copper map should suck and barely help at all, the 10 plat map should be more detailed.  Maybe the cheaper maps actually have errors on them....lead you to incorrect places.  I mean you get what you pay for right?  Some beggar who tries to sell you a cheap map clearly hasn't visited those dangerous areas, so he/she is going on heresay and conjecture.  Would add a cool flavor to always wonder whether your low quality map was sending you to the right place or not.

    • 752 posts
    April 20, 2018 11:49 AM PDT
    An atlas style map that shows a general location would be ok, but i honestly dont care if maps are a thing because there are some very talented cartographers out there that will give us extremely detailed maps that we can download or print
    • 1479 posts
    April 20, 2018 12:20 PM PDT

    They said something about maps in Lassiz's twitch stream but I couldn't get it, if someone did, feel free to post it.

    • 44 posts
    April 20, 2018 4:27 PM PDT

    Simple player made maps like EQAtlas, it was enough to get around without spoiling all the surprises. Also because there were no in game maps, I seem to be able to retain how to get around EQ to this day.

     

    Player made, hand drawn maps would be nice. And remember, there are no straight lines in nature ;)

     

    • 40 posts
    April 25, 2018 6:39 PM PDT

    NO in-game maps. 

    • 2756 posts
    April 26, 2018 3:05 AM PDT

    Chryos said:Simple player made maps like EQAtlas, it was enough to get around without spoiling all the surprises.

    They quite literally spoiled all the surprises with numbered locations for every significant NPC.  If you just wanted maps with notable landmarks in order to find your way around there was no such thing.

    Chryos said:Also because there were no in game maps, I seem to be able to retain how to get around EQ to this day.

    Just looking at a map a few times gives a frame of reference that helps you find your way around without them.

    Chryos said:Player made, hand drawn maps would be nice. And remember, there are no straight lines in nature ;)

    Dev made simple maps would be even better and would be sure to give just enough info to help you explore but not give away anything needlessly, because they know exactly where everything is and what should and shouldn't be teased or easily found or remain secret or whatever.

    • 2756 posts
    April 26, 2018 3:23 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    disposalist said:

    Except it's not always about advantage or disadvantage.  I don't care about 'advantage' I care about enjoying the game.

    I don't want to have either nothing or wikis-packed-with-spoilers-and-ads and nothing in-between. Brad et al have also stated that they want to encourage people to explore. Leaving it to Wikis will not encourage exploration, it will give people A-to-B routes to run even when they've never been to a region. It will mean they know exactly where to go for every quest and Perception pop-up and boss monster and loot drop with no need for them to explore whatsoever.

    In role-playing and plain common sense terms it is a nonsense that you couldn't get some kind of map from the locals in an area to help stop you getting lost and to provide some small cues as to where interesting stuff or at least landmarks might be, but it is much worse for the only alternative to leave the game for maps that show you every little secret in the region at the touch of a button.

    This is not a case of 'community involvement' being just as good as a developed solution.

    That's fairly extremist, wikis and databases might be packed with spoilers within the pages but you don't have to navigate to those (let alone read them) to get to maps. You can go to WoW wiki pages or the biggest and most used database (wowhead) and navigate to maps without any spoiled content whatsoever. 

    Even if the site were designed carefully for that to be true (and that's not a priority - quite the opposite - in my experience) the maps themselves are huge spoilers.  You might just want to know whether the mountain you're looking at is west or east because the recent combat turned you around, but you look at the map and are told the numbered location of every POI and NPC in the region.  Even knowing there something notable *exists* is often a spoiler.  You look for the mountain landmark and see there is hidden cave marked that only someone using Perception who'd gone all that way exploring should have found.  You look to see where you think you are and the forest you're in has an orc bandit ambush marked that you were about to stumble into. Doh.

    Iksar said:

    Those interested in doing exploration for themselves probably won't be looking up maps, preferring instead to level perception and explore each new zone as they enter to learn it and make mental notes. Having an on-demand map that reveals itself as parts are traveled isn't really encouraging exploration so much as it encourages running around to fill in the blanks. Alternatively I imagine there will be plenty of minimalistic maps (in addition to whatever data heavy maps that exist), which is the equivalent of getting a map from another adventurer.

    I've never seen minimalistic maps produced for any MMO, though if the devs don't do it for Pantheon, maybe I'm seeing an idea for a website of my own!  There must be folks like me that would like maps designed to help you explore but *not* give spoilers and maybe even give intreging teaser info, like a tree drawn slightly bigger ("Hmm, is that intentional or just artistic? Must go look next time I'm out there")

    Iksar said:I don't think it would be nonsense at all to figure locals in an area would not have maps of an area for every player (maybe they could have A map within the local inn/tavern that players can look at on the wall but not take with them)

    Ok, maybe not 'nonsense' but, to me, once the first few adventurers have come through and looked at the tavern map and scrawled a copy, someone in that village would be doing the scrawling and charging a copper per copy.  And how many adventurers would be coming through?...

    Iksar said:and it would be exceptionally unlikely they would have maps of local hostile dungeons/lands.

    Yes, true, but they might.  They might also have maps that are wrong in subtle ways or only go a little way or ones that lead you into traps in those dungeons on purpose spread by the dungeon owner!

    Iksar said:If they do end up caving and adding maps I hope they take up inventory space as well as have a small "cast" (unfold/unfurl) time...and should only be able to be used while stationary & otherwise unengaged. Immersion.

    I'd be totally up for that, yeah.  Maybe if a monster is chasing you it should have a percentage chance to come out upside down!  Lol.

    I just think it's a shame some people are simply "No! No maps!" just because, in the past, they haven't been done well.  Like a lot of things some denounce and dismiss as 'evil QoL' (I'm not saying you're doing that, Iksar!) there's actually opportunity to ease some pain but it also be a positive impact on RP or mechanics or whatever aspect of the game.

    • 98 posts
    April 26, 2018 11:02 AM PDT

    I love the idea of simple, dev-created in-game maps that exist as inventory items and require you to be stationary (or maybe slow-walking) to use.

    Nobody is going to have a better incentive to create spoiler-free maps than the dev team.

    • 1714 posts
    April 26, 2018 11:52 PM PDT

    Post after post of people ranting about the need for GPS. It's so sad how people have no idea what actually creates magic. Player made maps? Fine, whatever, who cares? Like has been said a hundred times, those things will be available online(SO WHY SPEND PRECIOUS DEV RESOURCES ON THEM?!?!). Knowing where you are on a map is NOT MAPPING. It's friggin GPS. Get out of here with that hand holding garbage. 

    • 839 posts
    April 27, 2018 12:24 AM PDT

    Now look what you've done, gone and made Krix mad... you tell em mate! haha 

    All seriousness though completely agree, please no Dev made maps besides a world map like the one that exists on the website atm. Get lost then get better at not getting lost, then show others how not to get lost and have a better community more reliant on each orther and more importantly more reliant on random logs in Nek Forest :) 

    • 3237 posts
    April 27, 2018 12:43 AM PDT

    This was Joppa's response to the "Will there be a map" question:  "There will not be a map--If we have a map, it'll be something most likely that would unfold as you actually explore the area and it would be a map that you would open intentionally for you to put in your own information.  So if you want to mark a landmark, if you want to mark a POI, if you wanna make a note here or there, that would be for you to do, not the game to do for you."

    It's been stated multiple times that something like cartography would be "considered" for Pantheon.  I know there are passionate folks on either side of the fence when it comes to this topic but let's try to keep the discussion civil.  "IF" maps do end up being a thing in Pantheon, they will likely function similarly to what has been described here.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 27, 2018 12:48 AM PDT
    • 162 posts
    April 27, 2018 12:57 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    This was Joppa's response to the "Will there be a map" question:  "There will not be a map--If we have a map, it'll be something most likely that would unfold as you actually explore the area and it would be a map that you would open intentionally for you to put in your own information.  So if you want to mark a landmark, if you want to mark a POI, if you wanna make a note here or there, that would be for you to do, not the game to do for you."

    It's been stated multiple times that something like cartography would be "considered" for Pantheon.  I know there are passionate folks on either side of the fence when it comes to this topic but let's try to keep the discussion civil.  "IF" maps do end up being a thing in Pantheon, they will likely function similarly to what has been described here.

    I would actually love that feature, especially since my memory sucks, i would love to be able to mark something, but at the same time, i remember when EQ came out and we had no maps in the beginning, it made finding landmarks and actually exploring so much fun. I can't count how many times I got lost trying to safely get through a bad zone. 

    Honestly, i think adding maps made the game a little less challenging because all we had to do was open a map and we could find an exit to a tricky dungeon, looking at you Kaesora, that dungeon was a nightmare lol. But epically fun.

    • 2756 posts
    April 27, 2018 7:24 AM PDT

    Dubah said:

    oneADseven said:

    This was Joppa's response to the "Will there be a map" question:  "There will not be a map--If we have a map, it'll be something most likely that would unfold as you actually explore the area and it would be a map that you would open intentionally for you to put in your own information.  So if you want to mark a landmark, if you want to mark a POI, if you wanna make a note here or there, that would be for you to do, not the game to do for you."

    It's been stated multiple times that something like cartography would be "considered" for Pantheon.  I know there are passionate folks on either side of the fence when it comes to this topic but let's try to keep the discussion civil.  "IF" maps do end up being a thing in Pantheon, they will likely function similarly to what has been described here.

    I would actually love that feature, especially since my memory sucks, i would love to be able to mark something, but at the same time, i remember when EQ came out and we had no maps in the beginning, it made finding landmarks and actually exploring so much fun. I can't count how many times I got lost trying to safely get through a bad zone. 

    Honestly, i think adding maps made the game a little less challenging because all we had to do was open a map and we could find an exit to a tricky dungeon, looking at you Kaesora, that dungeon was a nightmare lol. But epically fun.

    The problem with EQ maps was initially you had nothing whatsoever and a game where graphics meant things looked very samey and it was easy to get lost.  Yes, that could sometimes be 'fun' though to me it was too easy to get disoriented - and didn't feel very 'heroic', but whatever.  Then they introduce maps and you suddenly have a wireframe Sci-Fi 'scan' of everything in the zone plus a GPS locator so not only could you not get lost, you could examine the map and see hard-to-find stuff you'd never easily have stumbled across.

    Something more than nothing does not mean everything.  Most people who want maps want nothing like an in-car GPS system.  Of course that would be over-the-top.  No need for the purists to freak out like we're after current EQ mapping just because we're talking about maps.

    Kilsin wouldn't have asked the question if it was not a good possibility, so how about we discuss options?  Saying "no" is fine.  You gave your opinion.  Good for you.  Saying anything but "no" is somehow "wrong" is just unhelpful.

    • 1399 posts
    September 25, 2018 10:27 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    In-game Maps, World Maps or No Maps, what do you prefer when playing an MMORPG? :)

    (This has been discussed a bit in some archived forums and more recently but I wanted to make a focus thread on it across multiple platforms, so please feel free to share your views again in here).

    I'll admit up front I havent read thru this entire thread, so it may have been mentioned before. And I'd like to credit and thank 187 for helping to find this thread from a link he put in a available smaller "map" thread.

    I know devs thoughts at this point are no maps, but they like the idea of some cartography skill later on. But what about asking directions from an NPC?

    Was it EQ or WOW where asking a Guard for directions would get you hints on where to look for whoever you needed. Sorry I'm real vague on what info you used to get.

    Not that they should give you a glowing path or anything. But hypothetically say you were in Freeport and asked a guard

    Player: "Where is Felwithe?"

    And they might respond with

    Guard :"Felwithe! Thats on the island of Faydwer, your going to need to head down to the Dock and catch the boatname"

    Player: "Where is the Dock?"

    Guard: "Out the East side of the City of course where else would a Dock be?"

    I was in Everqest the other day, trying to get arround without the FIND or the maps, and it pretty hard sometimes even when I knew where I wanted to go. Basically impossible if I only had a name of a place and not even knowing what expansion the zone was from.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at September 25, 2018 10:32 PM PDT
    • 13 posts
    September 26, 2018 12:56 AM PDT

    Maps please but no gps. I don't see the point of no maps, people will just make boring plain white maps for a wiki page, example https://wiki.project1999.com/Innothule_Swam

    I don't see the point of not having this in game, I don't want to dedicate a screen for a map. I think map and compass gameplay would bring alot to the game, it was alot of fun in classic dayz. maps don't have to have all pois and no gps means you still need to learn the zone. Compasses could also be used for atmosphere, I.e. spinning around in circles for a creepy type zone or in a high magic zone, the compass only points to a certain poi. Also a fantasy world with no maps doesn't make sense.


    This post was edited by Nelar at September 26, 2018 1:51 AM PDT
    • 13 posts
    September 26, 2018 1:01 AM PDT

    .


    This post was edited by Nelar at September 26, 2018 1:51 AM PDT
    • 228 posts
    September 26, 2018 1:06 AM PDT

    @Zorkon. Assuming your average guard only knows about locations everybody living in the neighborhood would know, I like it. Doesn't break anything and enhances the feeling of being in a virtual world.

    There could even be a new level of faction standing where the guards no longer kill you on sight, but they still don't trust you enough to help you.

    • 303 posts
    September 26, 2018 1:43 AM PDT

    Nelar said: Maps please but no gps. I don't see the point of no maps, people will just make boring plain white maps for a wiki page

     

    They've said they aren't adding them, though. I agree with you but at the end of the day I guess I'll have to settle with a map from a wiki.

    • 432 posts
    September 27, 2018 7:46 AM PDT

    As pepole said , there will be maps because maps are useful . Whether in game or out of game there will be maps .

    I did some maps for a table game featuring the Andornan kingdom and I could very well imagine that this kind of maps would be no problem if they were included in Pantheon too . Of course no GPS - this is something tatally different from cartography .

    Here an example what should pose no problem even for purists (those saying "No maps") .

    • 75 posts
    September 27, 2018 8:36 AM PDT

    I prefer Either No map at all, OR world view map only. I really dislike all this Gps rubbish and mini maps and glowy trails etc. following a mini map or glowy trail IMHO make the world feel So much smaller, if your follwoing that glowy trail or mini map, you miss so much of the world. When there is No map, you HAVE to pay attention, you have a tendancy to Notice more and remember things that you perhaps normally wouldnt, it makes the world feel much larger and more alive, and getting lost can sometimes lead to some of the best adventures.