i think there is a very simple option for this. Fact is people are going to make maps. Fact is people will look up quests online as well. I say VR makes a clinet side web broswer. You want to look up maps you can, you want to explore and get lost you can do that as well. I also think making maps should be a skill in the game. How ever VR sets thats up, is up to them IMO.
Deadshade said:This dates from 1999 . 20 years old but pretty good to transfer the idea of what is sufficient .
Oh god, thoses maps were so great. So bad they stopped making them :(.
About the friendloss thing, actually the game include a radar of "what direction are your groupmates", which is very logical about how you can see and sense the direction of where someone is even if you do not look at him directly (footsteps, sound, etc..)
Putting resources into things like cartography which keeps coming up seems like it would be a total waste, especially if it were a profession. No sane person would spend any in-game money for something they could just open on a different monitor, their phone, or print out and make their own markings on. People will make maps and put them online (more detailed than VR ever would) complete with any points of interest and community created/agreed upon names of locations/camp abbreviations etc.
A general world map with no indicator of location? Sure. Maps of every zone? Nah, wouldn't use them compared to detailed maps by users online.
@Iksar I think you lack imagination. After mastering an area and mapping it out. You could get ingame details a webpage could not give. Like maybe hints and pointers to quests. Maybe a minor speed buff (knows the area well would cut down travel time) Maybe you could make map notes you could share with others who have the same skill. Making this more of an organic social skill.
Personally i Hate in game Maps!
With the introduction of in game maps with GPS you are here Dot and an arrow pointing you in the direction your going, people have no need to explore to much or to even look where they are going as they have their eyes squarely fixed on the mini map and their GPS dot...Why bother trying to LEARN a zone or even look around at your surroundings and try and figure out where you are because its all handed to you on a silver platter, No need to use your brain or your eyes, its all been done for you...Just follow the Arrow/Gps/glowy trail Etc /rant over
I prefer No ingame maps, No Gps, No mini maps, let the community create our own maps that we can download or print out like in the Eq days. Sure you can print a map out within a few months...BUT you Still have to use your brain, you Still have to LOOK at your surroundings and figure out where you are in relation to the map, and then eventually LEARN the zone so eventually you wont need to use the map anymore because guess what you would have used your brain, improved your memory and remembered the zone.
Those sound like bonuses to artifically incentivize putting maps in the game and making people use them, not to make maps themselves a worthwhile addition. Hints and pointers to quests is the domain of the perception system (and those not tied to it will likely show up as points of interest on player created maps anyhow) and knowing an area well is already a bonus to travel time as you learn all the quickest routes/shortcuts, no need for an artificial boost to speed.
I have imagination but I think a feature/idea should stand on its own feet. Adding things like bonus move speed or whatever else to a map system seems very much like maps themselves are not worthwhile and players would be encouraged to participate not for the love of or need for maps but for the non-map related bonuses associated.
I'd be happy with only a world map and a compas - for partymembers they already have an arrow pointing to where they are, so no reason to see them on a map.
I agree with Iksar that making a cartography tradeskill would be a waste. You will be able to find maps online, which would make the skill obsolete. It's not like smitting or tailoring etc. as you can't just google yourself new boots.
-sorte.
I think the biggest challenge with a cartography system is providing it some sort of value that can't be achieved by window-tabbing. I wouldn't say it's impossible. I also don't believe that nobody would buy maps when they can just get one online. There are plenty of people who don't want to cycle between windows while they play. For the sake of immersion alone ... I think there would definitely be a demand for maps in game, especially if you allow players to customize them with markers, POI's, etc. No mini-map or GPS though ... ever! Just because there is an online guide that teaches people how to play their class, is there some sort of assumption that everybody would use it? Just because people can go buy an epic sword of flames for $25 online, does that mean that there aren't other players who would rather acquire it legitimately? I understand these aren't exactly the same thing but there is a logic there that is relevant to the discussion.
oneADseven said:I think the biggest challenge with a cartography system is providing it some sort of value that can't be achieved by window-tabbing. I wouldn't say it's impossible. I also don't believe that nobody would buy maps when they can just get one online. There are plenty of people who don't want to cycle between windows while they play. For the sake of immersion alone ... I think there would definitely be a demand for maps in game, especially if you allow players to customize them with markers, POI's, etc. No mini-map or GPS though ... ever! Just because there is an online guide that teaches people how to play their class, is there some sort of assumption that everybody would use it? Just because people can go buy an epic sword of flames for $25 online, does that mean that there aren't other players who would rather acquire it legitimately? I understand these aren't exactly the same thing but there is a logic there that is relevant to the discussion.
I just think people over evaluate the presence of third party sites/softwares.
As long as things aren't directly included in the game/ui, they will be partially marginal and only used as a last ressource, and not as a systematic use.
Just look at EQ maps, it was the only complete map site for long, long. But when EQ released ingame map, it just fell into oblivion.
Was everybody using EQmaps ? No. Was it used ? Yes. Was it mandatory ? No. Practical ? Yes.
Everyone used some equivalent to EQAtlas. I printed them out as I went into the area so I could make notes on them and ended up with a *massive* folder of paper maps covered in additional detail from my personal visits.
A basic, in-game map that I could add my own notes to would be *awesome* and would stop the need for looking up online maps that contain every spoiler instantly and trivialise the exploration of a zone.
Maybe I can make some money producing a website that stays in-keeping with the Pantheon style and lore and doesn't give masses of spoiler detail?...
Cartography doesn't have to be used by everyone. I think it would be an awesome way to keep certain types of players interested.
For eg. I'm a dad, so can't always lock-down 1-2 hours of uninterupted play, so will turn to crafting and etc. to grind and progress my character towards achievements. I get to the point where my blacksmithing resources are burned out, I can then turn to cartography FOR FUN and maybe some slight bonus in treasure-finding skill, or terrain speed increase or something(maybe say 2-5%).
Not everything in every game will be for everyone.
So, to the people who do not want to use maps. If they put maps in the game, do you feel required to use them? I mean I guess I don't get why people so adamantly argue their pov for something that you literally can just not use.
If you don't want to tab out for a map, you don't have to. If you don't want to open your mini map. You don't have to. You can choose to play the game however you want.
WoW has addons. Some of these addons make the game much much easier by giving you notification and timers for boss abilities. You do not HAVE to use these addons, but you can if you want to. And as long as you not using them doesn't impact 24 other people... no one really cares.
MauvaisOeil said:I just think people over evaluate the presence of third party sites/softwares.
As long as things aren't directly included in the game/ui, they will be partially marginal and only used as a last ressource, and not as a systematic use.
Just look at EQ maps, it was the only complete map site for long, long. But when EQ released ingame map, it just fell into oblivion.
Was everybody using EQmaps ? No. Was it used ? Yes. Was it mandatory ? No. Practical ? Yes.
People didn't use them as much back in the day (latency issues/single monitor/alt+tab sucked and crashed EQ sometimes) but they certainly do now. Just about everyone in WoW uses or used sites like wowhead (or thottbot back in the day) or plugins that access the databases for searching in-game. Dual monitors are not uncommon, people have smart phones to look things up, alt+tab is snappy, internet connections are much better, and information is far more available about every aspect within games than it ever was in the past with new stuff datamined and put up before patches even hit.
EQ in-game maps only made outside resources far less valuable because it had a GPS system and showed where you where at all times, so people would much more often navigate zones like they tend to in modern games by running around with their map pulled up on their screen the whole time or checking it a few times a minute.
It's pretty ingrained now. Going to a new zone/instance? Look up bosses/drops/quests/maps. Doing a quest? Look up the when/where/how. Spell/ability info and locations? Look it up. A lot of people just don't have the patience or maybe the interest in figuring things out for themselves if it means they might lose time doing so. Just like the number of people who are against medding/downtime or zones/zoning.
Porygon said:So, to the people who do not want to use maps. If they put maps in the game, do you feel required to use them? I mean I guess I don't get why people so adamantly argue their pov for something that you literally can just not use.
End of the day? I don't really care so long as there is no GPS. But for me I'd rather them not spend the time coding it all into the game (certainly not to the extent of a cartography system) when it adds so little and the community can handle it outside of the game anyway. Spend that time working on other things. Just my opinion of course, I know there are plenty of features others feel the same about that they are working on.
Porygon said:So, to the people who do not want to use maps. If they put maps in the game, do you feel required to use them? I mean I guess I don't get why people so adamantly argue their pov for something that you literally can just not use.
If you don't want to tab out for a map, you don't have to. If you don't want to open your mini map. You don't have to. You can choose to play the game however you want.
WoW has addons. Some of these addons make the game much much easier by giving you notification and timers for boss abilities. You do not HAVE to use these addons, but you can if you want to. And as long as you not using them doesn't impact 24 other people... no one really cares.
I always have to chuckle when I see this argument. I actually tend to agree with the sentiment. But, I also feel that it’s used to justify everything. I have seen this argument used regarding banks, brokers, cosmetic gear, raiding, crafting, and just about everything disagreed with on these forums.
Then, the other side comes in and says that if it’s there, the top tier players will use it to their advantage, making everyone has to use it or fall behind. Therefore, it should not be in Pantheon.
Compromise is not often found here.
It's pretty ingrained now. Going to a new zone/instance? Look up bosses/drops/quests/maps. Doing a quest? Look up the when/where/how. Spell/ability info and locations? Look it up. A lot of people just don't have the patience or maybe the interest in figuring things out for themselves if it means they might lose time doing so. Just like the number of people who are against medding/downtime or zones/zoning.
don't you overextend this by a bit ? I clearly never look a DB before having explored a zone and found things by myself. It's more a matter of convenience to 1) find back something 2) get a general overall of a map dimension and tone.
It's not a systematic use, it's a parcimonial "on need" use. It's used often to share bugs or stuck steps in quest involved MMo's, and you better know if you're doing things wrong or if they just bug like hell.
I don’t want to see some full detailed map in game at launch. I want to explore but once I am done exploring I have to admit I want a map to save time going to places I already know. Why I think crafting your own map is the best way to go. Also a map a dev controls what we produce by crafting can stem the flow of people using detailed maps online. Soon as they are online all people who don’t use maps will be at a disadvantage. That’s the sad part. IMO, the devs need to own this part of the game or someone else will.
Nanfoodle said:Also a map a dev controls what we produce by crafting can stem the flow of people using detailed maps online. Soon as they are online all people who don’t use maps will be at a disadvantage. That’s the sad part. IMO, the devs need to own this part of the game or someone else will.
Based on their interviews and comments in all the other similar threads, I believe the devs are perfectly happy wth others owning this part of the game. In fact, it appears that they encourage it.
Beefcake said:Nanfoodle said:Also a map a dev controls what we produce by crafting can stem the flow of people using detailed maps online. Soon as they are online all people who don’t use maps will be at a disadvantage. That’s the sad part. IMO, the devs need to own this part of the game or someone else will.
Based on their interviews and comments in all the other similar threads, I believe the devs are perfectly happy wth others owning this part of the game. In fact, it appears that they encourage it.
Yep. Community involvement.
Also, the same thing is true of most all of the things in the game be it classes, tradeskills, items, maps, mobs, factions, etc: Those who do not use online (out of game) resources will be at a disadvantage of some kind.
Iksar said:Beefcake said:Nanfoodle said:Also a map a dev controls what we produce by crafting can stem the flow of people using detailed maps online. Soon as they are online all people who don’t use maps will be at a disadvantage. That’s the sad part. IMO, the devs need to own this part of the game or someone else will.
Based on their interviews and comments in all the other similar threads, I believe the devs are perfectly happy wth others owning this part of the game. In fact, it appears that they encourage it.
Yep. Community involvement.
Also, the same thing is true of most all of the things in the game be it classes, tradeskills, items, maps, mobs, factions, etc: Those who do not use online (out of game) resources will be at a disadvantage of some kind.
As well anything worth doing in life, if you want to be good, you have to spend time researching the topic and learning all about it.
Narben4 said:i like a map that is discovered as you progress. this need not be particularly full of locations but it is a geographical image. Eg i go walking my house down to the river, across the river at the shallow point on to a path between somes trees. i get to a road i can see it goes east and west. this should stay with me i should not unlearn this. I have no idea if the road has a name but maybe if i keep walking there is a sign.
i don't know how long the road is and only by following should i be able to discover that.
insert cartography skill? allows me to mark items in rough detail at first then in more detail later on as i develop.
I really do not like full maps laid out for you. I do not like minimaps that bling and ping and glow so brightly i cannot see the world. But as per initial thought i am not a goldfish that forgets whether i went right or left at the big rock and found the waterfall?
I agree with much of this. If having zone maps created and shared on external websites is going to happen (and it will) then I would much prefer to have maps available in-game to a limited extent. Nothing makes me so frustrated as to feel compelled to alt-tab to a browser to look up some map. A low detail map that is revealed as you discover it with simply general terrain depicted would be fine for me. It would also be great if I could pin POI's and annotate them with a brief note.
Iksar said:Beefcake said:Nanfoodle said:Also a map a dev controls what we produce by crafting can stem the flow of people using detailed maps online. Soon as they are online all people who don’t use maps will be at a disadvantage. That’s the sad part. IMO, the devs need to own this part of the game or someone else will.
Based on their interviews and comments in all the other similar threads, I believe the devs are perfectly happy wth others owning this part of the game. In fact, it appears that they encourage it.
Yep. Community involvement.
Also, the same thing is true of most all of the things in the game be it classes, tradeskills, items, maps, mobs, factions, etc: Those who do not use online (out of game) resources will be at a disadvantage of some kind.
If thats their stand not much to say on the topic.
Iksar said:Beefcake said:Nanfoodle said:Also a map a dev controls what we produce by crafting can stem the flow of people using detailed maps online. Soon as they are online all people who don’t use maps will be at a disadvantage. That’s the sad part. IMO, the devs need to own this part of the game or someone else will.
Based on their interviews and comments in all the other similar threads, I believe the devs are perfectly happy wth others owning this part of the game. In fact, it appears that they encourage it.
Yep. Community involvement.
Also, the same thing is true of most all of the things in the game be it classes, tradeskills, items, maps, mobs, factions, etc: Those who do not use online (out of game) resources will be at a disadvantage of some kind.
Except it's not always about advantage or disadvantage. I don't care about 'advantage' I care about enjoying the game.
I don't want to have either nothing or wikis-packed-with-spoilers-and-ads and nothing in-between. Brad et al have also stated that they want to encourage people to explore. Leaving it to Wikis will not encourage exploration, it will give people A-to-B routes to run even when they've never been to a region. It will mean they know exactly where to go for every quest and Perception pop-up and boss monster and loot drop with no need for them to explore whatsoever.
In role-playing and plain common sense terms it is a nonsense that you couldn't get some kind of map from the locals in an area to help stop you getting lost and to provide some small cues as to where interesting stuff or at least landmarks might be, but it is much worse for the only alternative to leave the game for maps that show you every little secret in the region at the touch of a button.
This is not a case of 'community involvement' being just as good as a developed solution.
Some dev-mage basic maps would be enough to stop people going straight to a spoiler site and could also be excellent *additions* to the role-playing aspect of the game. The teasers and pointers that could be given on a simply made map (that we could then annotate, or at least print ourselves and scribble on) would be fantastic.
"Why is that tree in the nearby forest drawn larger than the others?"
"What is that tower on the map in the north with no name?"
"Why is that part of the cliff drawn in red?"
"Why does the path we are on end on the map, when it leads to this cave?"
I think once again people are looking at maps like "Oh, didn't they ruin EQ when they were added?" so we should have *nothing* when if they are not done like that, they could be awesome.
disposalist said:*Snip*
Some dev-mage basic maps would be enough to stop people going straight to a spoiler site and could also be excellent *additions* to the role-playing aspect of the game. The teasers and pointers that could be given on a simply made map (that we could then annotate, or at least print ourselves and scribble on) would be fantastic.
"Why is that tree in the nearby forest drawn larger than the others?"
"What is that tower on the map in the north with no name?"
"Why is that part of the cliff drawn in red?"
"Why does the path we are on end on the map, when it leads to this cave?"
I think once again people are looking at maps like "Oh, didn't they ruin EQ when they were added?" so we should have *nothing* when if they are not done like that, they could be awesome.
