Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Maps of various kinds

    • 9115 posts
    December 7, 2015 4:08 AM PST

    In-game Maps, World Maps or No Maps, what do you prefer when playing an MMORPG? :)

    (This has been discussed a bit in some archived forums and more recently but I wanted to make a focus thread on it across multiple platforms, so please feel free to share your views again in here).

    • 91 posts
    December 7, 2015 4:20 AM PST

    NO MAP is the real deal!

    This will give you the real exp in exporation. Also it will make the community strong, creating outsourced content/informations (everyone remembers EQAtlas, right?). Creating own maps, cooperating on other websites, wikis and stuff like that.

    • 147 posts
    December 7, 2015 4:30 AM PST

    I prefer no maps, will make the world bigger, getting around you pay attention to landmarks.

    All games have the "mimi map" now and people pay more attention to it than the game world. 

     

    • 9115 posts
    December 7, 2015 4:32 AM PST

    lyrina said:

    NO MAP is the real deal!

    This will give you the real exp in exporation. Also it will make the community strong, creating outsourced content/informations (everyone remembers EQAtlas, right?). Creating own maps, cooperating on other websites, wikis and stuff like that.

    That is a good point :)

    • 9115 posts
    December 7, 2015 4:32 AM PST

    Obliquity said:

    I prefer no maps, will make the world bigger, getting around you pay attention to landmarks.

    All games have the "mimi map" now and people pay more attention to it than the game world. 

     

    That is also very true :)

    • 75 posts
    December 7, 2015 5:34 AM PST

    i like  a map that is discovered as you progress.  this need not be particularly full of locations but it is a geographical image.  Eg i go walking my house down to the river, across the river at the shallow point on to a path between somes trees.  i get to a road i can see it goes east and west.  this should stay with me i should not unlearn this.  I have no idea if the road has a name but maybe if i keep walking there is a sign.

    i don't know how long the road is and only by following should i be able to discover that.

    insert cartography skill? allows me to mark items in rough detail at first then in more detail later on as i develop.

    I really do not like full maps laid out for you.  I do not like minimaps that bling and ping and glow so brightly i cannot see the world.  But as per initial thought i am not a goldfish that forgets whether i went right or left at the big rock and found the waterfall?

    • 2130 posts
    December 7, 2015 5:39 AM PST

    If maps aren't included with the game, they'll be made by a third party and be available online anyway within a few months. Trying to restrict information from players in 2015 is a fruitless endeavor.

    The "community strengthening" aspect of wikis and map creation is something I have not personally ever witnessed.

    • 9115 posts
    December 7, 2015 6:06 AM PST

    Narben4 said:

    i like  a map that is discovered as you progress.  this need not be particularly full of locations but it is a geographical image.  Eg i go walking my house down to the river, across the river at the shallow point on to a path between somes trees.  i get to a road i can see it goes east and west.  this should stay with me i should not unlearn this.  I have no idea if the road has a name but maybe if i keep walking there is a sign.

    i don't know how long the road is and only by following should i be able to discover that.

    insert cartography skill? allows me to mark items in rough detail at first then in more detail later on as i develop.

    I really do not like full maps laid out for you.  I do not like minimaps that bling and ping and glow so brightly i cannot see the world.  But as per initial thought i am not a goldfish that forgets whether i went right or left at the big rock and found the waterfall?

    Yeah, I like one that is discovered as you adventure and find new places, then mark them on your map yourself or via a pin ;)

    • 9115 posts
    December 7, 2015 6:08 AM PST

    Liav said:

    If maps aren't included with the game, they'll be made by a third party and be available online anyway within a few months. Trying to restrict information from players in 2015 is a fruitless endeavor.

    The "community strengthening" aspect of wikis and map creation is something I have not personally ever witnessed.

    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.

    • 18 posts
    December 7, 2015 6:33 AM PST

    When an mmo has an ingame map and mini map, such as WoW, I find that I don't really notice the surrounding environment to the point that years later I'll see something that I had never seen before.  In Everquest, pre whenever basic maps were introduced, I was able to pay attention to everything.  Landmarks became my signs to point me in the right direction and I guess zone walls did the same for a few areas as well.  When I recently played to level 20 in P99 I dusted off my EQ atlas that SoE sold a while back and that was great for finding my way around areas that I had forgotten how to get out of (Neriak).  So I think my preference would be to not have a mini map, or a GPS style map, where I know where I am based on where the blip on the map says I am.  I have no preference to whether or not the devs provide an ingame map or not, and if no map is included then someone will make a map and if you want to use one they will be available through community sources.  

    • 2130 posts
    December 7, 2015 6:40 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Liav said:

    If maps aren't included with the game, they'll be made by a third party and be available online anyway within a few months. Trying to restrict information from players in 2015 is a fruitless endeavor.

    The "community strengthening" aspect of wikis and map creation is something I have not personally ever witnessed.

    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.

    Tough to say. in EQ, for instance, MapFiend was basically just a website that 99% of players would visit every time an expansion came out, download and extract the maps, and it's done. If there's going to be custom UIs then it seems pretty impossible to prevent someone from making a UI piece that displays maps, although likely without a character location overlay. This is assuming there isn't a very restricted API with which to make custom interface pieces.

    The map making/wiki communities in games always seem to be a really, really tiny fraction of the playerbase that the 99% disregards until they need the information.

    Item databases are another recurring source of annoyance and I genuinely wish that game studios would start releasing full item databases that are completely sortable with a variety of criteria, instead of having the community work to make one and then having it become archaic a few years later when a patch retroactively alters stats or something.

    I don't know. The anti-map rhetoric that I hear a lot falls very short of convincing me. Vanguard had maps and it didn't detract from the experience at all. Dark Age of Camelot had maps since release iirc, in 2001, and it never detracted from the experience.

    • 112 posts
    December 7, 2015 7:31 AM PST

    Regardless of how it is done map information will be made available. I don't think the issue is as easy as do we have maps or not, but more of what can you do to make map exploration more interesting and unique. I agree that leaving out the mini-map is a good idea and I don't think any in-game map should reveal everything. To me I would rather keep it all in game as opposed to constantly having to reference a third party site.

    My preference is for a combination cartography skill and in-game topical map with fog of war. As you explore you reveal vague geographical features of the area, and as your skill increases you can add more detail to your map and points of interest. Perhaps at low skill you can only reference large features like mountian ranges, rivers, and cardinal directions. At higher skill levels you could make out little known roads or small rural buildings. Allowing players the ability to add waypoints and personal notes to the map further enhances its effectiveness. The map could serve well as either a soulbound feature to encourage everyone to explore or as tradeable items letting master cartographers sell instance, zone, and world maps to support the in-game economy. 

    • 19 posts
    December 7, 2015 9:32 AM PST

    Definatly prefer no mini map. In games with mini maps and quests helpers I find myself just following the map from point to point. Makes the game very linear. I loved the web community around EQ. I used eq atlas and had the maps printed in a binder. The site was basically like an npc that sold maps that the players contributed to. Much more depth and involvement having a physical map in front of you with points of interest. Getting to the dungeon required a sense of direction instead of a blip on a map. Have to aim north east and then when I see the giant camp head west. 

    • 724 posts
    December 7, 2015 9:45 AM PST

    For a long time, I was a proponent of an in-game map. I would've favored a map style similar to the good old EQ atlas maps (minus the descriptions, and without a marker for "your current position/direction"). Perhaps with the ability to draw your own markings. Similar to how you would use a real map: To give you an idea of the surroundings, but you would still have to figure out where you are, what direction you're moving etc.

    However I have changed my opinion on this, and now agree that an in-game map is probably more a distraction than a real help. Without it, one will look out better for landmarks, fall-back routes to safety, and of course you can watch for the actual landscape instead of running around with your map open :)

    That said, I would still like to see a form of in-game maps, for example a military post with a map on the table, or libraries having a globe for you to look at. Or a throne room with a huge map of the kingdom on the wall :)


    This post was edited by Sarim at December 7, 2015 9:46 AM PST
    • 163 posts
    December 7, 2015 9:55 AM PST
    I have to vote for no maps and here is an example of why.

    Traveling from Kelethin to Butcherblock or vice versa, I would always take the pathway or landmarks provided, making the zone feel risky, and vast.


    Now that I see how easy it is go run this straight line, why do I care about the rest of the zone?

    [img="http://i.imgur.com/R2igddp.jpg" alt=""]
    • 668 posts
    December 7, 2015 10:14 AM PST

    I like this system or something similar...  It can be a good "middle" solution for everyone.

    Have a world map, but do not allow zoom-in details of individual zones.

    When you enter a zone, have a cool looking, ancient style map, but only have the "perimeter" edges showing.  It would be up to the player to place their own markers (made available) and text insertions as they move along, futher into the zone.  It would be neat to be able to find torn map pieces, randomly off mobs and adjacent dungeons, that when used, fills in a small detailed section on your map.  Find them all, which would take a good effort, and you have your map detailed out.

    With these conditions, I do not feel it would hurt to show where you are on map since most will be blank anyway.  A direction indicator is fine or do something similar to the EQ sense heading skill again.

    I would really like this system to be honest but certainly know there are MANY different desires out there.

    *edit - PS not a fan of allowing "add-ons" or "map packs" if that can be prevented.


    This post was edited by Pyye at December 7, 2015 10:15 AM PST
    • 36 posts
    December 7, 2015 10:19 AM PST

    I posted this a while back: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2241/a-cartography-skill with some good points and concerns about a system like that.

     

    I personally like to have maps in games, I think a map that didn't show the player location would be okay. Also, I don't like being able to place your own way point by clicking the in-game map or something similar.

    • 57 posts
    December 7, 2015 10:29 AM PST

    Liav said:

    If maps aren't included with the game, they'll be made by a third party and be available online anyway within a few months. Trying to restrict information from players in 2015 is a fruitless endeavor.



    What was the year MMO players didn't have access to the Internet? :P

    Liav said:

    If there's going to be custom UIs then it seems pretty impossible to prevent someone from making a UI piece that displays maps, although likely without a character location overlay.

    I think that's key, though. It might just be me, but I don't think just having a map of the world or of specific locations is what the "anti-map rhetoric" is about, but mostly having your location given to you. Because it's satisfying to pay more attention to the actual world so you learn to know where you are on that map. Learning is a hell of a drug.

    • 668 posts
    December 7, 2015 10:43 AM PST

    Good points Tag... 

    I am okay with most any system as long has information is not handed to you without thought or skill involved.  So make the navigation like a mini sub-set of skills or tradecraft and would be great.

     

    • 116 posts
    December 7, 2015 11:07 AM PST

    Playing devil's advocate here, but if Pantheon has maps, what is preventing those who don't like maps from simply turning them off?

    Personally I don't have a horse in this race.  I'm completely indifferent.  If they're there, cool, if not, oh well.


    This post was edited by itvar at December 7, 2015 11:07 AM PST
    • 163 posts
    December 7, 2015 11:24 AM PST
    Lack of self control.
    • 668 posts
    December 7, 2015 11:25 AM PST

    I see your point but it has to do with knowing everyone is on the same playing field.  It is not the same as just "turning it off" to make it tougher on yourself.  It is still a competition against the game and how you help progress thru it with others.  I am like 90% of the players where if it is available, I will use it to the fullest.  Rather not have it there in the first place.

    I might even ***** about certain hardships in a game but eventually realize because of it, I got more out of the game... It also has to do with if certain "hand holding" benefits commonly given to the players in modern MMOs, where Patheon is claiming to build a game that steers away from this style.  So I am hesitant to support anything that leans toward making the game too automatic.  It would be easier to adjust something easier later (if mass players agree) than to reverse it back to making it harder.

    My two cents...

    • 232 posts
    December 7, 2015 12:06 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Narben4 said:

    i like  a map that is discovered as you progress.  this need not be particularly full of locations but it is a geographical image.  Eg i go walking my house down to the river, across the river at the shallow point on to a path between somes trees.  i get to a road i can see it goes east and west.  this should stay with me i should not unlearn this.  I have no idea if the road has a name but maybe if i keep walking there is a sign.

    i don't know how long the road is and only by following should i be able to discover that.

    insert cartography skill? allows me to mark items in rough detail at first then in more detail later on as i develop.

    I really do not like full maps laid out for you.  I do not like minimaps that bling and ping and glow so brightly i cannot see the world.  But as per initial thought i am not a goldfish that forgets whether i went right or left at the big rock and found the waterfall?

    Yeah, I like one that is discovered as you adventure and find new places, then mark them on your map yourself or via a pin ;)

     

    I agree with this.  I'd like to see a map that is filled in with landscape as you explore, but not labels.  The map would appear vast and black to infinity first entering a new zone.  You should have no idea where the zone boundaries are.  Exploration and immersion is key.  Give us the tools, let us do the rest.  Make this map per character, and not tradable... exploration shouldnt stop because you have money to buy a pre-made map from an NPC or other player, and it shouldnt be a one-time experience per account.  My 2c :)

    • 184 posts
    December 7, 2015 12:06 PM PST

    lyrina said:

    NO MAP is the real deal!

    This will give you the real exp in exporation. Also it will make the community strong, creating outsourced content/informations (everyone remembers EQAtlas, right?). Creating own maps, cooperating on other websites, wikis and stuff like that.

     

    I agree with most of you with saying NO to an internal map system. Most folks including me remember the frustration and danger of exploring without in-game maps (such as was the case with early EQ), and though having a map would of made things much easier it wouldn’t of been the same experience. Yes, it was frustrating exploring without a map, and sometimes I would find myself getting lost or even killed because I wandered where I shouldn’t have been.

    This to me is what drew me into EQ because everything was new and unexplored (for me at least…), but later I would find sites like EQAtlas and though it helped immensely it still didn’t take away the feeling of exploring because the maps were general and not very detailed (at least the ones I used…)

    I’m a big believer in community first and letting the community share what they find, this is why I like when games motivate others into creating their own websites that fill in the blanks. Sites such as EQAtlas, CastersRealm, EverLore, EQlizer…etc… filled a role for many players because they offered tips, maps, open discussions and much more.

    Anyway, I understand why some people would want maps in Pantheon, but I personally prefer Pantheon without maps unless they are player created maps that can be made through a Cartography skill. If there is a Cartography skill that a player could use to make their own internal maps and then choose to either sell or share with other players then I’m for that option.

    Rint

    • 753 posts
    December 7, 2015 1:52 PM PST

    I prefer to let the game community take care of maps OUTSIDE the game.  Inside the game, while they provide a lot of (dreaded word here) convenience - I have come to feel like they remove me from my character whenever I open my map.  Which is odd, because I used to use Muse's maps in EQ - and I did not have that feeling when I took my eyes off of my screen to look at the actual printed map I had sitting next to it.