Pyye said:Examples in the simplest sense, very similar to EQ:
Cleric - Best single and group heals in game, best HP buffs
Crusader - Best off tank magic resist, decent back up heals, special buff
Warrior - Best overall tank, best melee mitigation in game, aggro control
Dire Lord - Best off tank multiple mobs, best melee AoE damage in game
Ranger - Best ranged DPS and tracking in game, good secondary utility skills
Rogue - Best melee DPS in game, secondary poison DOT and effect skills, best lock pick
Monk - Best avoidance in game, best feign death class, multiple self utilities
Summoner - Best pet class / DPS in game, great summoning utilities (that are needed / desired in game)
Enchanter - Best mezzing control, best mana regen utilities in game
Wizard - Best magic DPS in game, best AoE damage DPS in game, best ports
Bard - Quickest land travel, Second best messing, buff enhancement class, best overall utility in game
Druid - Only class to dire charm animals, best DS in game, bunch of utility
Shaman - Best slow in the game, best secondary HP buff (stackable), great utility class
Uniqueness is much more fun than balance. I agree Pyye
I spent years as a Warrior in VG playing second fiddle to the Paladins. It wasn't an issue of Paladin mechanics being OP or badly designed, it was that there was never a niche where the Warrior could shine.
I definitely want to see each class be unique, and have obvious strengths and weaknesses.
In any given archetype, I never want to see it play out where raid or group leaders *always* choose one class if it's available.
Will echo in my words to this. I dont mind the numbers being a bit off as long as all classes have something that makes them worth having. I would hate to see the day when X class is just not wanted for groups at all because not only does it do bad dmg but it brings nothing to the table either.
Personally I think there are too many classes in Pantheon to balance so I don't think it's actually possible.. only so many genuinely usefull skills to dole out outside of the Tanking/Healing/DPS & CC so all those classes evenly balanced sounds virtually imposssible.
EQ suffered from imbalanced soloability and those classes that were not soloable were not always the most group desirable.. which was a serious oversight in the fundamental balance/design IMO.
Put simply the more group dependant a class then the more group desirable it should be by design. Nothing worse than logging on with a non soloable class and still second/third choice after a number of soloable classes for a group. Sitting waiting around with nothing to do quickly loses players or you end up with servers full of just a few specific classes.......
Agreed, rocketmagnet, it's going to be very challenging, if they go the traditional nerf/buff route.
Zone-wide group aura/buffs by archetype and class (or personal environments) would be a better path, imo. That way, no matter what kind of a tank you get, you get at least that benefit while grouped, and that archetype is fulfulling it's role for the group. Class specific things like procs, permanent stat/resist buffs, and new skills available if that class is grouped with you make everyone desirable.
It's not that it can't be done, it just requires the designers and target demographic are willing to think outside the box.
Destron said:Class balance is a tricky thing, I definietly am against the bland style we see today where all classes have similar abilities. Making each class have a strong point or a weakpoint just drive home the community aspect. It creates a reason to bring certain classes. It makes each character you play truly unique, instead of "Oh this ability on my priest is just like my druid, except it's called Wild Growth instead of Holy Nova etc"Make classes unique with very little overlap.
Sounds like you've played WoW from the spells you describe. That and I think only WoW calls their healer a Priest. I agree that I want to play a game with clearly definfined classes that have their own unique identity.
The problem is that balence means so many different things to many people. Since this is to be a PvE Group focused game I think balence would be easier to find. In Pantheon players will be trying to survive the enviroment, mobs and such, so I don't think there'll be any competition about who does more dps or whatever. Instead people will be more focused on their role as the others contribute their classes individual skills to the task/s at hand. I think Pantheon has a real shot here. It's limited focus on solo play should hopefully be enough to keep people occupied while waiting for a group or just wanting the novelty of solo play as a break, to simply goof off.
Risingmist said:Destron said:Class balance is a tricky thing, I definietly am against the bland style we see today where all classes have similar abilities. Making each class have a strong point or a weakpoint just drive home the community aspect. It creates a reason to bring certain classes. It makes each character you play truly unique, instead of "Oh this ability on my priest is just like my druid, except it's called Wild Growth instead of Holy Nova etc"Make classes unique with very little overlap.
Sounds like you've played WoW from the spells you describe. That and I think only WoW calls their healer a Priest. I agree that I want to play a game with clearly definfined classes that have their own unique identity.
The problem is that balence means so many different things to many people. Since this is to be a PvE Group focused game I think balence would be easier to find. In Pantheon players will be trying to survive the enviroment, mobs and such, so I don't think there'll be any competition about who does more dps or whatever. Instead people will be more focused on their role as the others contribute their classes individual skills to the task/s at hand. I think Pantheon has a real shot here. It's limited focus on solo play should hopefully be enough to keep people occupied while waiting for a group or just wanting the novelty of solo play as a break, to simply goof off.
Hehe, people were screaming bloody murder in EQ long before WoW existed.
"Why don't druids/shamans get Rez?! It's not fair!"
"Why can't Paladins tank as well as Warriors!? It's not fair!"
"Why do Necro's and Mages get pets and Wizards dont! It's not fair!"
"Why do Shadowknights get feign death!? It's not fair!"
"Why do druids get ports!? It's not fair!"
"Why can Necro's solo and Clerics cant!? It's not fair!"
This list is endless.
Iksar said:beautifully said:Thats a very scary statement and if it is something you are looking for this is the wrong game for you. That or I seriously misunderstood this game and wasted my pledge. There are a ton of games out there just like this for you to go play right now, no need to wait.
Classes should never be balanced. You should not be able to solo heal a dungeon as a druid, sorry. A druid AND a shaman healing? Ok, I could get behind that. Warriors should be the best single target tanks there are while others are better at other encounters. Why? Because they cant do 3/4 of the crap the other tanks will be able to do (heal/dps/ETC.).
This is also a very scary statement. Why is it that you feel that two of the three healer classes shouldn't be able to adequately perform their roles as healer? That's like saying "You should not be able to solo tank a dungeon as a paladin, sorry. A paladin AND a dire lord tanking? Ok, I could get behind that."
It's also a stretch to say warriors should be the best single target tanks just because it's hinted that the other two have spells. We know nothing at all of how warriors will be and what abilities they will have. We know nothing of the tanks yet at all.
If they can do what a cleric could do then why ever have a cleric in the group? If the game follows previous games in any way, and it is according to the class descriptions, then not only will druids and shamans be able to heal but they can also DPS and druids may have ports. They will also have class specific buffs for DPS. Now take a cleric, which has in the past had pathetic DPS and can barely solo, who's sole job is to heal, why bother when thats all they can do?
If im putting a group together and I had a choice between 2 classes, both of which could keep the group alive, one of which could help do some ok DPS, I'm going with the DPS class everytime. Classes have to be split this way or you come up with a crappy game that everyone can do everything. So, heres how I see it, I'm putting a group together and we need heals:
Option A: get a cleric and I can pick up an extra DPS
Options B: get a druid AND shaman, which combined could heal better than the cleric and provide some buffs, but I would have one less DPS class
Both options are viable and one could be better than the other depending on the dungeon. How boring would it be to just do down a checklist to fill out the group: Tank, healer, CC, DPS DPS DPS done. When classes actually differ, you have to put some thought into it.
As far as tanks, it would make perfect sense that warriors would be best single target and pally/SK would be best at AoE/other things since pally/sk are two sides of the same coin. So what if warriors are best tanks on raids? So for 3 nights a week for a few hours they shine? What about the countless hours you will spend in a dungeon where Sk/Pally will likely be best tanks?
Classes HAVE to be different or the game will flop and the devs know this. it will just be another crappy RIFT game.
One of the things I always found in Everquest was that no matter what class I played, there was always some feature or ability or spell etc of another class that i REALLY missed having. For awhile at first I kinda of found it frustrating, but in the long run, it's what the unique system of depending on one anothers unique abilities that makes an MMO like EQ really for (for me)
No fun in having a healer that can tank, or a a make that can heal. Tried that in other MMO's... not my thing, though others may enjoy it a lot
In short, I like the system EQ used and would prefer to see something similar to that
beautifully said:
If they can do what a cleric could do then why ever have a cleric in the group? If the game follows previous games in any way, and it is according to the class descriptions, then not only will druids and shamans be able to heal but they can also DPS and druids may have ports. They will also have class specific buffs for DPS. Now take a cleric, which has in the past had pathetic DPS and can barely solo, who's sole job is to heal, why bother when thats all they can do?
If im putting a group together and I had a choice between 2 classes, both of which could keep the group alive, one of which could help do some ok DPS, I'm going with the DPS class everytime. Classes have to be split this way or you come up with a crappy game that everyone can do everything. So, heres how I see it, I'm putting a group together and we need heals:
Option A: get a cleric and I can pick up an extra DPS
Options B: get a druid AND shaman, which combined could heal better than the cleric and provide some buffs, but I would have one less DPS class
Both options are viable and one could be better than the other depending on the dungeon. How boring would it be to just do down a checklist to fill out the group: Tank, healer, CC, DPS DPS DPS done. When classes actually differ, you have to put some thought into it.
As far as tanks, it would make perfect sense that warriors would be best single target and pally/SK would be best at AoE/other things since pally/sk are two sides of the same coin. So what if warriors are best tanks on raids? So for 3 nights a week for a few hours they shine? What about the countless hours you will spend in a dungeon where Sk/Pally will likely be best tanks?
Classes HAVE to be different or the game will flop and the devs know this. it will just be another crappy RIFT game.
You are making the assumption that cleric and warrior will be like they were in EQ and have no utility and almost no dps. Considering how little we know about classes this is a rather big assumption and I hope an incorrect one. Classes can be vastly different and still preform thier role at nearly the same level. Having only one class who can solo tank and only one class who can heal a group dungeon sounds like a horrible idea.
I would much prefer that all healer and tanks con perform the roles very close to the same level just do it in different ways. If done right each class would work well in most situations but there should be encounters where wariors excel at tank and other encounters where you would prefer one of the other tanks. and healers should all have there own benfits they give a group on top of there healing and maybe heal in different ways that alow them to excel at certian encounters or situations. To have clerics and wariors so powerfull that I takes 2 classes to replace them, will just lead to thouse 4 lesser classes being unwanted in groups.
I feel like the concept of “Class Balance” is a trap that many companies have fallen into over the last decade or so.
Much of the fun is being able to pick up a class that feels somewhat unique. A class should be different enough to be able to do or handle mobs/situations that others might not be able to, but ultimately they are a piece of something bigger. This something bigger is the group dynamic, that brings all these unique skills together to make a whole and functioning party that has a much-improved shot at a larger goal.
I see nothing wrong with Class 1 being able to solo Mob A easily, while Class 2 struggles or simply cannot solo Mob A. There may be other instances where Class 2 can solo Mob B, while in turn, Class 1 is unable to or at least not as easily.
Trying to find a perfect balance can lead to an imperfect game and wasted man hours.
Barnum
Yes but normally if class 1 can solo Mob A it can solo b,c,d,e etc using the same technique as usually class 2 can't solo anything as the class can't remove mob DPS out of the equation.
Tends to be any any ability where you can damage a mob and it can't damage you back, e.g. Kiting, Rooting, fear etc.. increasing MOB DPS does not affect this and it's irrelevent once your able to do this (hit and not get hit). all your left with is your damage resource pool (probably mana) Vs mob HP (Inc resistances etc). One solution is all mobs have some form of ranged attacks but usually it's only a few mob types and you avoid them... so you end up with classes that can simply ignore one key element that designers use to increase the difficulty .. mob DPS.
Totally agree there is little point to trying to balance it all but the classes need to have some equivalency or you end up with servers full of the most soloable classes... will be interesting to see how they handle this as they must have learned many lessons over the years and there are multiple mechanisms to prevent players from totally avoiding getting hit...
Like I said earlier the only balance you need to do is make the non solo classes the most group desirable.
rocketmagnet said:Yes but normally if class 1 can solo Mob A it can solo b,c,d,e etc using the same technique as usually class 2 can't solo anything as the class can't remove mob DPS out of the equation.
Tends to be any any ability where you can damage a mob and it can't damage you back, e.g. Kiting, Rooting, fear etc.. increasing MOB DPS does not affect this and it's irrelevent once your able to do this (hit and not get hit). all your left with is your damage resource pool (probably mana) Vs mob HP (Inc resistances etc). One solution is all mobs have some form of ranged attacks but usually it's only a few mob types and you avoid them... so you end up with classes that can simply ignore one key element that designers use to increase the difficulty .. mob DPS.
Totally agree there is little point to trying to balance it all but the classes need to have some equivalency or you end up with servers full of the most soloable classes... will be interesting to see how they handle this as they must have learned many lessons over the years and there are multiple mechanisms to prevent players from totally avoiding getting hit...
Like I said earlier the only balance you need to do is make the non solo classes the most group desirable.
The highlighted section is the falacy in the argument.
Just because a class can solo doesnt mean they can solo everything. While they might be able to pick off a single mob in an overland zone and guide it to a "safe" spot to dispatch it, it doesnt mean they can single out a mob in a dungeon and find a safe spot, let alone do so to boss mobs that have the desired drops. For this reason alone the assumption that the server will be mostly solo players is flat out wrong.
And you have to consider the reverse of the argument : When a class is capable of solo'ing it's usually to the detriment of some other ability. Necro's in EQ come to mind, and when they were the kings of solo'ing they were also considered gimp for xp groups because it took them so long to deal damage. Other classes were much more desireable for groups for this reason, and necro's were quite often left to solo precisely because people didnt find them among the most desireable for groups. Conversely that Cleric that couldnt solo a pair of rats was begged to join groups from the second they logged in.
All this also disregards any number of mechanics developed over the years that completely negated a lot of the solo tactics; Leashing to break kites, summoning mobs to kill agro kiting and rooting, huge DPS that pulverized pets, etc etc etc. I'm not saying that these should be universally applied mechanics, but there's no reason they cant be put in on mobs in specific places where the devs really don't want solo'ing at all.
Feyshtey said:...
All this also disregards any number of mechanics developed over the years that completely negated a lot of the solo tactics; Leashing to break kites, summoning mobs to kill agro kiting and rooting, huge DPS that pulverized pets, etc etc etc. I'm not saying that these should be universally applied mechanics, but there's no reason they cant be put in on mobs in specific places where the devs really don't want solo'ing at all.
I truly hope they do not add mechanics that nullify class abilities. Yes, this requires better design and layout and perhaps more time, but removing class abilities through mechanics is a sure way to kill the fun/strategy. Imo, this even holds true for bosses. So many times the boss is nothing more than a dps meter. Be nice to create some boss mechanics that REQUIRE unique abilities like mez, root, etc.
As an example, the Enchanter in EQ was quite powerful until they started popping non-mezzable mobs all over the place. Made the class nothing more than a mana/haste battery and where's the fun in that?
>Just because a class can solo doesnt mean they can solo everything<
When many of us talk about a class being able to solo it means able to solo content that was designed to be more or less soloable. It doesn't mean that the class can go into a dungeon alone at-level and kill anything.
At the risk of oversimplifying there tended to be three categories of classes in many MMOs - at least back in the old days before any class could do anything in games like Rift. (1) Classes that were very good at soloing because they could burn mobs down before mobs could get them close to dying, because they could self-heal, because they could kite, because they had powerful pets or the like. (2) Classes that could solo but weren't that good at it and accomplished a lot more when grouped. By good at it I refer to speed as well as what they could kill - a class that could win every fight but took 15 minutes to kill a normal at-level enemy isn't a soloable class. (3) Classes that can't really solo at all and are for grouping. The Midgard Healer in DAOC was such a class - could barely solo a green con mob.
If Pantheon was going to be a normal MMO it would be time to agree that the worse a class is at soloing the more value it should bring to the table for a group. But if Pantheon has relatively little that *can* be solod after the initial zone or two and grouping is mandatory to get to maximum level in less time than the life of the universe, EVERY class needs to be valuable to a group.
Archaen said:Feyshtey said:...
All this also disregards any number of mechanics developed over the years that completely negated a lot of the solo tactics; Leashing to break kites, summoning mobs to kill agro kiting and rooting, huge DPS that pulverized pets, etc etc etc. I'm not saying that these should be universally applied mechanics, but there's no reason they cant be put in on mobs in specific places where the devs really don't want solo'ing at all.
I truly hope they do not add mechanics that nullify class abilities. Yes, this requires better design and layout and perhaps more time, but removing class abilities through mechanics is a sure way to kill the fun/strategy. Imo, this even holds true for bosses. So many times the boss is nothing more than a dps meter. Be nice to create some boss mechanics that REQUIRE unique abilities like mez, root, etc.
As an example, the Enchanter in EQ was quite powerful until they started popping non-mezzable mobs all over the place. Made the class nothing more than a mana/haste battery and where's the fun in that?
Cant argue with your logic at all.
And it's worth pointing out that a lot of the abilities that we're talking about had unintentional rolls in making solo'ing possible. Good, strong limited AOE nukes sounded like a great idea, right up until it was coupled with SoW and allowed wiz/druid quad kiting. The original mechanic designs didnt factor this in because it was unkown at the time. You can get it'll be factored in now. While I agree with the notion that having these abilities really gave a lot of the classes the personalities that made them so compelling, overall health of the game should also be considered. Gimmicky things like mob summoning (why does a nobody gaurd have the ability to summon me to his feat, but only cares to do so if he's damaged?) should not be needed if the rest of the design is solid.
rocketmagnet said:Totally agree there is little point to trying to balance it all but the classes need to have some equivalency or you end up with servers full of the most soloable classes... will be interesting to see how they handle this as they must have learned many lessons over the years and there are multiple mechanisms to prevent players from totally avoiding getting hit...
Like I said earlier the only balance you need to do is make the non solo classes the most group desirable.
Depending how things are done, I don't think you would see servers full of solo classes. For example, an EQ Cleric was not really something you would want to solo with above a certain low level, but since most fun content was group content or above, the Cleric was very much needed on the server. As long as the focus is mainly on groups and how the classes interacte within that group dynamic, then I believe (hope) we will see a spread of classes.
Barnum
When I interpret the question asked regarding class balance I begin with the premise that there will be 12 classes (or 13) developed for Pantheon and available at launch. These classes will be part of Pantheon and an aspect of the game. I suppose on some level all of these classes will also be represented in the mobs we face while adventuring in Pantheon. However, my take on the matter is more along the lines of the 12 classes developed for Pantheon for players to pick and choose and play.
So using that premise my rationalization (and it is only my opinion) is that there must be a reason for a player to choose to play a particular class (even a particular race and class combination) to play in a social and group-centric game (core tenents of the game) like Pantheon. So, when I am addressing class balance I am addressing it from the standpoint that there must be a balance of these classes playing in Pantheon and conceivably playing in Pantheon for the long haul. I don't address balance on the aspect of one class versus another class and then they have to be balanced. I address it from the point of view that if there are going to be 12 classes (and more) then they all need to be purposeful and useful in the context of Pantheon as a game and a social and group-centric game. The aspect of "for the long-haul" is important for one can recognize the allure and appeal for all 12 classes to be played and represented at launch. But once Pantheon has settled into a "long-term" game then new players and alternate characters should all be gravitating towards the class that appeals to them and not from the perspective of "this class appeals to me because it is only one of four useful classes in Pantheon."
Using the quarternary system of tank, healer, DPS, and crowd control Pantheon could have conceivably gone the route of just 4 classes and when making up a group of 6 players just grab any two others of those same four classes. However, that is not what has been developed. There will be a minimum of eight other classes. So there has to be a balance in place to make playing those eight other classes a viable choice. However that balance is defined.
Now, I can understand how some classes may be better solo classes (from the player-base perspective) and there can be some classes that are better group classes (from the player-base perspective). If, for some reason, a player has chosen a better group-oriented class and is upset that he isn't able to play like a better soloable class because he didn't understand when he chose a class then I don't think it is unreasonable that the player has to abandon that class and choose a different class more in line with how he understands his own playstyle to be. I am totally fine with having to force a player to choose a different class later on once that player has settled into the playstyle of choice or made a decision on the playstyle of choice and realizes the current class choice is at odds with the playstyle.
As we have stated many times, we believe in class interdependence and the quaternity system, not all classes will be equal but they will all be balanced for our game, some will be better at some things and worse at others requiring a good mix of classes needed for groups/raids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXQzdXPTb2A&t=3s
i'd like to start off with this video.
i don't believe that all classes should be able to do everything, otherwise, we wouldn't have classes to begin with, including class interdependency.
in think in the case of mmos and in recent streams(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqZEMCC5nA&t=3834s), i think the combat needs more depth with the las12.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X4fx-YncqA
taking the las12, there needs to be more distinguishing factors in combat rather than just making sure we setup our bars properly.
the current state of combat allows me to spam everything on the las12 without thought, albeit just resource cost. there is no gcd.
so what's the difference between two tanks, dps, healers or ccers other than the sequence of buttons i would push?
there isn't! i can quickly spam anything on the las12 without the consequence of action.
installing a gcd not only gives devs another avenue of class balancing, such as a warrior having smaller gcds, but require more player input(higher apm, more forgiving for bad decision making) vs a dire knight having longer gcds, but require better decision making(less apm, but punishes for bad decision making). this makes the two classes even more distinct, hence it caters to different players and fun for each type of tank player that suits them.
the thing with class balancing is that it's on going. opening the floor for more player expression(gcd) should be something worth looking into.
the way i see it right now, the classes drives the player, leaving little room to distinguish a player.
i'd say give more ways for the player to drive the class.
I think that in a game that is going to discourage, or even heavily discourage solo gameplay, that the classes need to be balanced. If you don't have them balanced, then you are going to have people that pick a class without realizing that said class is ostracized from the rest of gameplay because of it. Not only that, on the other end of the spectrum, you will have a way higher number of the overpowered classes in play and less and less of the other ones. These people will be wanted in every group and others will be cast to the wayside. If you are going to have gameplay that pushes more towards group play and interaction, then you can't have classes be out of balance. It'll be like the rogues from EQ all over again.
OCastitatisLilium said:I think that in a game that is going to discourage, or even heavily discourage solo gameplay, that the classes need to be balanced. If you don't have them balanced, then you are going to have people that pick a class without realizing that said class is ostracized from the rest of gameplay because of it. Not only that, on the other end of the spectrum, you will have a way higher number of the overpowered classes in play and less and less of the other ones. These people will be wanted in every group and others will be cast to the wayside. If you are going to have gameplay that pushes more towards group play and interaction, then you can't have classes be out of balance. It'll be like the rogues from EQ all over again.
i think another component that can be used to balance classes is the design of creative dispositions.
such as the warrior normally tanks via damage migitation like block. having a mob with a ~unstoppable disposition~ bypasses block mechanics, but takes a penality to dodge(meaning the dodge tanks are more valuable vs this type and maybe drain tanks have a soft counter to this)
u can even do precision dispo(strong vs evasion tanks weak vs migitation tanks), poisonous dispo(strong vs drain tanks with no clear adv or disadv vs the other 2 types of tanks)
rock paper scissors.
it doesn't have to be black and white(binary) and can be something like at %bonus damage or damage reduction depending on stat numbers of the tanks(allows the ability to requip gear to compensate)
since the dispos seem to be rng, ya never know what you are going to get, therefore increasing diversity amongst the tanks without one type of tank being the be all end all.