Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A Cartography skill

    • 36 posts
    October 19, 2015 4:59 PM PDT

    I've always had an idea for a cartography skill in fantasy based MMOs where the longer you were in a place and the higher your cartography skill level the more detailed your maps were. hidden things like treasure chests or hidden caves would pop up for the highest skills. The details would fill in faster if you were stationary in an area and the higher your skill level the faster they filled in and the longer the radius from you that could be filled in. 

    You'd be able to make copies of your original map to sell or give away, there would be no built in map of the world so every map would be player made. Copying the maps would take time, the higher the detail of your copy the longer it takes to make. 

    The skill itself would have to be a toggleable thing with downsides to having it on, like having a delay in drawing weapons if you get attacked and always walking instead of running. I imagine the skill advancing through progressively more needed experience per skill level where each detail fill in or each terrain feature would be worth a certain amount of experience or something.

    What do you all think of something like that?

    -Tag


    This post was edited by Tagaderm at October 19, 2015 4:59 PM PDT
    • 39 posts
    October 19, 2015 5:10 PM PDT

    This is a very tricky topic for me.  I think maps have for the most part ruined the MMO experience.  In particular maps that are editable either via UI or a text file.  The last thing I want for pantheon is a map system that lets people download 3rd party maps and install them on their machine listing the location of every hidden nook and crany.  I would much rather maps not be included at all than put a cartography skill in.  If you want to have maps require that people buy maps of new areas from NPC's.  Don't completely obliterate the sense of exploration and wonder by allowing players to map everything.  What happens when player made maps mark down "secrets" that would be revealed with the perception system?

    • 36 posts
    October 19, 2015 5:19 PM PDT

    Baulkin said:

    This is a very tricky topic for me.  I think maps have for the most part ruined the MMO experience.  In particular maps that are editable either via UI or a text file.  The last thing I want for pantheon is a map system that lets people download 3rd party maps and install them on their machine listing the location of every hidden nook and crany.

    Good points, I'd hope they would have measures in place to guard against that sort of thing, I think having the maps be in any way editable by a user would be a bad idea.

     

    Baulkin said:

    What happens when player made maps mark down "secrets" that would be revealed with the perception system?

    I would say that there could be categories of entries i.e. Landmarks, major terrain features, minor terrain features, dungeons, secrets, etc... I'd say anything marked secret should either be uncopyable or so prohibitavely expensive (time wise? skill level wise?  maybe materials wise?) that it would extremely rare to see a copied secret setting.

     

    -Tag

    • 39 posts
    October 19, 2015 5:27 PM PDT

    If it was not possble for user's to in any way effect maps without the skill above I would agree it would be very cool.  Unfortunatley I have little faith that it will be the case.  Most maps are based on coordinate systems or simple image files, both of which could be easily edited.  If UI's are able to be made and imported into the game it would be childs play to put a spoiler filled Map into whatever format the ui takes.  (Most UI's are created with XML) No matter what we do some Fansite will contain fan created maps with all zones within the first 90 days.  The only question is will they be the hand drawn maps we witnessed with sites like EQmaps, or will they be 100% exact maps coming from the ingame map system.  


    This post was edited by Baulkin at October 19, 2015 5:27 PM PDT
    • 999 posts
    October 19, 2015 5:38 PM PDT

    We have had a few old threads discussing a cartography system in the past (think they've been archived), and, as Baulkin stated, I would want at best the highest level cartography skill to make hand-drawn rudimentary maps similar to EQmaps, and those with a low skill to have completely wrong directions, landmark placement, etc.

    And, like Baulkin, I also agree that an in-game map system destroys much of the immersion and wonder of the game world and also makes the world feel much smaller.  Another idea would be to have mob-dropped "maps."  I could see an Orc Strategist etc. having a map parchment etc. (a very simple hand-drawn map), and, perhaps you would need to learn the orcish language in order to decipher it and/or have to know the in-game lore to know what the orcs call certain landmarks.

    • 21 posts
    October 19, 2015 7:20 PM PDT

    I personally am an advocate of no maps. When I played EQOA I had the map that came in the game guide and that was it. Naturally people will make maps anyway but that dosen't bother me. I also like your idea Raidan of mobs dropping maps. 

    • 75 posts
    November 2, 2015 2:20 AM PST

    Raidan said:

    I also agree that an in-game map system destroys much of the immersion and wonder of the game world and also makes the world feel much smaller.  Another idea would be to have mob-dropped "maps."  I could see an Orc Strategist etc. having a map parchment etc. (a very simple hand-drawn map), and, perhaps you would need to learn the orcish language in order to decipher it and/or have to know the in-game lore to know what the orcs call certain landmarks.

    this is an interesting thread. i like the idea of discovering the map/world as i explore.  Everyone starting with a map that is blacked out.  Where you adventure is what you know.  this starting premise is then enhanced through a skill base developing the accuracy of your discovered areas - knowing north from south always helps!

    As above Raidan's thoughts - local maps should be able to be found (in camps or as drops off only certain types of mobs).  These should only be sketches (or possibly better detailed from more intelligent mobs).  these sketches could enhance your base map but you would need to visit the area (which may or may not be near where you are) in order for it to filled in in particular detail.  Also the language/lore aspect is a winner.

    With regard to editable maps - i like it.  not to use others but in order to make my map feel like mine.  perhaps i want to comment on a cave that has particular mushrooms, perhaps mark something for future exploration.  These should not be able to to be traded/sold/shared.

    For me exploration and my own map are very important - lol i still remember dungeon crawling in Bards Tale with graph paper next to me!! or actually playing dice and paper games drawing things out as we played 

     

    • 75 posts
    November 2, 2015 2:23 AM PST

    A further thought - perhaps until your skill was high enough or your learnt how to write/draw, you in game map slowly fades ie. the further away from an you are the les detail there is until there is nothing.  this could then be impacted by intelligence/perception....

    • 3 posts
    October 30, 2017 8:09 PM PDT

    I had not scrolled through the thousands to find this post before making one my own. I will below copy what I wrote maybe there will be some points of interest 

    Hello Everyone!

    I have a suggestion for the community and the dev team, please have a look and comment any constructive feedback or suggestions to make this idea better.
    For anyone who has played the original Everquest, you know all to well that the game’s map was garbage, (the map needed the note: "Sorry we didn’t care about the map"). Personally, it felt lazy and unfinished considering the community had to create something on their own time on a third party site just to have a usable and finished product. Now on the other side of the coin, let me use World of Warcraft as an example, I don’t believe Blizzard did that great of a job either. Everyone could have a complete map easily with no real sense of accomplishment. In most MMO’s today the Map seems to be a given and greatly underappreciated. In one of the past months streams with CohhCarnage a question about the maps was asked and the answer was vague. VR seems to want community feedback about how in depth the map will go. I love this idea. I think it is great to include the community in production. I love their idea of keeping exploration fun, mysterious, exciting, and, to an extent, scary. I dont want to be lost all the time. Give us the power to choose! So finally getting to my point of this forum and not just a rant.


    CARTOGRAPHY


    Let’s allow players the ability to draft their own maps! Map quality can be determined by the materials used and players Cartography level (Map itself is a predetermined image by VR to keep authenticity). While seated, the player will begin to channel and sketch out the map of the area around him/her based on a set radius. Once the cartographer has a “Complete map” the player should be able to make a copy of their map to sell, and or keep, triggering a “long Cooldown." Key terms here, “Complete Map”(To avoid dishonest people trying to scam) and “Long Cooldown” (The ability to copy a map once every two weeks to once a month to a void flooding the market).


    BENIFITS TO LEVELING CARTOGRAPHY
    -Better Quality Maps
    -Larger radius of map drafting
    -Shorter drafting times
    -Map Overlays (Example: Safe paths / Best routes in dungeons)
    -Ability to use and create more powerful/rare crafting materials

    Instead of giving a map away and losing its worth or not having a map and being lost all the time this skill would add to the adventure, a sort of meta game itself. It seems that many zones in Pantheon will require a group of friends to clear and map out an area. Each zone will have a separate map to create a market for and support the local auction houses. To avoid flooding the player’s inventory and banks with tons of maps, idealy, the system would have free slots for each map. Only a Map Copy will burden the inventory, once a map is equipped it will permanently replace the currently equipped map, similar to the acclimation system.


    PERCEPTION SYSTEM INTERGRATION


    Still not convinced? Let’s add Cartography with VR’s perception system, making a strategy or map room equally as valuable as a library to a Keeper. Using the tower of the reckless magician as an example, a cartographer may find patterns to craft magical items like a phoenix quill pen or his secret recipe for his tome writing paper. Maybe the reckless magician has a section of a map you’re missing and you can copy it, or you find a map overlay exposing a secret entrance and even if while exploring you found the section of wall in a hallway or cave that seemed like a doorway, without the cartographer making that overlay discovery it could never be opened.

    Unfortunately I was unable to figure out how to use the un-user friendly system to post images. Below I have posted the URL to my personal FaceBook Page with the Images I've created to give an example of the progressive map drafting.

    *Disclaimer* I am not a programmer, script writer, or artist, nor do I have any knowledge of developing a system or program. Images shown are borrowed from google images and chopped up and stitched together from my basic paint program.

    https://www.facebook.com/Tavintha/media_set?set=a.503047100061447.1073741827.100010684839303

    • 1120 posts
    October 31, 2017 10:41 AM PDT

    There are a ton of posts about this already.   A very lively one that took place a few weeks ago.