Forums » The Ranger

Endless Quiver

    • 6 posts
    October 6, 2015 6:17 AM PDT

    Is there a better way to do ranged ammunition than endless quiver? Just wondering ...  I had always wondered if there might have been a game that had a better way of doing ranged ammunition rather than having an endless magical supply ....

    • 353 posts
    October 6, 2015 7:56 AM PDT

    I suspect the answer to that will be to make friends with a Summoner.

     

     

    Kiz~


    This post was edited by Angrykiz at October 6, 2015 7:56 AM PDT
    • 258 posts
    October 7, 2015 6:26 AM PDT

    I loved the endless quiver AA.  This really gave EQ rangers something majorly impactful to work towards.  A milestone in their character development. Its a huge jump, like getting KEI as an enchanter.  The the goal for everyone was to hit these milestones, rather than having nothing else to focus on other than get through the grind to max level as quickly as possible. In my opinion, this is one of the major development flaws in modern MMO's: a steril leveling experience combined with meaningless and over-abundant gear upgrades.  It becomes boring quickly, with little to look forward to.  

    Maybe endless quiver isnt the wholesale answer to this, but this is the first thing that came to mind for me.  

    • 357 posts
    October 7, 2015 2:23 PM PDT

    endless quiver was a nice AA skill, but i would like to see something at the start for the ranger that makes it so that you do not have to keep making one time use arrows. something i proposed in another ranger topic was making arrows no longer be single use items. give them a durability and make them able to be recovered from slain mobs. then you only have to constantly replace the arrows that missed the target or are too damaged to keep using. this way instead of 10k arrows needed per ranger play session you only need a hundred or so.

    • 113 posts
    October 7, 2015 5:06 PM PDT

    I like the way Vanguard handled it. Rangers could forage arrow materials and had the fletching skill. They created the best arrows in game.

    • 71 posts
    October 15, 2015 11:48 AM PDT

    Ya, I think foraging arrow materials is the way to do it, that way rangers aren't constantly draining their money on materials to make really nice arrows. Instead of an endless quiver AA, how about make an AA that allows you to increase the yield of combining fletching materials?

    • 21 posts
    November 16, 2015 4:41 PM PST

    I think the economy will need money sinks so inflation doesn't get out of hand, ammo is one small way to help. So I would like to see arrows being crafted and sold but not at outrageous prices. Also make a quiver that can hold a huge amount of arrows so you don't have to restock every 30 minutes. More interdependency.

    • 193 posts
    September 4, 2016 3:55 AM PDT

    I dont like endless quivers as a standard ranger "perk". The AA was a great way of getting this into the game and (as said above) a target to focus on. But I dont think it is nessassary. If it is introduced then I would want to see it as a ranger grand master crafted item coupled with a quest line (equivalent) to retrieve special parts for the quiver and find the knowledge to make it. It is a valuable asset, so make it an endevour to get.

    I do like the idea of being able to retrieve a percentage of arrows from a downed foes and missed shots. I also like the idea of foraging for materials and creating arrows on the fly (so to speak). I dont see why both systems couldnt be in the game as long as it was easy and quick to create arrows between fights. This could be the rangers version of waiting for mana. Down time, catch your breath, make some arrows. :)

    Foraging for items in a dungeon (depending on the type would/should(?) effect the quantity and quality of the arrow parts if realism is to play a part. So a ranger going into a dungeon would have to stack up a bit before getting into the dark. But I think between foraging arrow parts and retrieving arrows, a ranger would have enough projectiles to last any length of dungeon using this method.

    Any endless quiver should be a reward for a hard working ranger, not a gimme.

    Thinking about it, another way to make arrows last a game session, is to have fights take less real time to conclude, quick and brutal. In the real world, melee weapons and projectiles create huge damage. Either taking out or nullifying a normal man with one good hit. It would make cleric duties very demanding to cope with this, but it would mean a full quiver would last an age (coupled with arrow retrival). Imagine drawing a bow that took seconds (realtime) to pull, aim and fire, but the hit was single devistating blow instead of pew pew pew which seems to be the preferred method. Im not saying it should be like this, just that there are more than one method that could be introduced to ensure that an endless quiver is not a "requirement" of play.

    • 27 posts
    September 5, 2016 5:46 PM PDT
    I would prefer to see Endless Quiver in Pantheon, it is a very important tool in a Ranger's kit. Obviously it shouldn't be obtained at a low level, but later on when the best arrows are very expensively crafted or even raid dropped, Rangers can't afford to shoot them at every little thing. Also in EQ1 bow delays ranged as low as 17, which would burn through arrows much quicker than a bow with the same damage ratio with a higher delay. To me Endless Quiver just makes sense for a Ranger.
    My biggest plea is that until Rangers get Endless Quiver for arrows to stack to a more appropriate quantity. I hated having all my bags full of 20 stack arrows in EQ1 and couldn't loot much until I started fighting to use up some arrows.
    • 44 posts
    September 6, 2016 4:05 AM PDT

    I'm not a fan of things like Endless Quiver because they trivialize arrows. I feel that some thought and effort should go into crafting and stocking/replenishing, but I realize not everyone enjoys that kind of thing.

    I would propose that rangers have some unique fletching/foraging skills that make the process faster/more efficient for us, since we will surely rely more on arrows than other classes. But.. no magically endless quiver for me.


    This post was edited by Raine at September 6, 2016 4:06 AM PDT
    • 22 posts
    September 6, 2016 7:26 PM PDT

    I dunno, make endless quiver paired with a non tradeable best arrow only made by a ranger by being a super high end crafter and although every ranger will eventually wind up with it if they care to put the time in it still provides a perk for those who do work at it from day one.

    iamme

    • 38 posts
    September 12, 2016 11:31 AM PDT

    Raine said:

    I'm not a fan of things like Endless Quiver because they trivialize arrows. I feel that some thought and effort should go into crafting and stocking/replenishing, but I realize not everyone enjoys that kind of thing.

    I would propose that rangers have some unique fletching/foraging skills that make the process faster/more efficient for us, since we will surely rely more on arrows than other classes. But.. no magically endless quiver for me.

     

    I'm with you, Raine - not a fan of Endless Quiver. As Zaketh mentioned above, Vanguard had a good system. I'm all for larger quantities of arrows in a stack, though. Gone should be the days of 20 arrow stacks.

    • 251 posts
    September 26, 2016 2:34 PM PDT

    I also am not a fan of the Endless Quiver ability.  I would prefer things stayed more in the realm of realism with archery so I think a quiver shouldn't hold more than a dozen arrows, maybe 20 tops for a large, high-capacity quiver.  Have the arrows be an actual combat resource where you want to take well aimed and well timed shots for maximum effect.

    Have the quiver 'auto-load' from the inventory once the ranger is out of combat (I like realism, but not tedium and I wouldn't want to have to fish through my inventory after each fight), but during combat, limit them to the capacity of their quiver.  If a ranger wants to restock their quiver during combat, make it a skill with a cast timer to simulate ruffling through your pack to get more arrows.

    Have arrows be retrievable.  If you hit a mob with an arrow, have it go into their inventory so it can be retrieved from it's corpse once the fight is over.  And better yet, add a ranger attack ability 'arrow extraction' where they forcibly yank an arrow from their prey, inflicting an additional large amount of damage, possibly applying a 'bleed' dot, and returning the arrow directly to the ranger's quiver.  This way, in a long fight the ranger might expend all their arrows but then jump into melee range and start yanking arrows back out of their targets before hopping back out to range and resuming fire.  This could work in tandem with arrow types, where barbed or hooked arrows get extracted for larger amounts of damage and apply stronger 'bleed' effects.

     

     

    Apply appropriate modifiers to base damage if certain conditions are met:

            --  Target is standing still  +x% dmg

            --  Shooter is standing still  +y% dmg

            --  Target is unaware (ie, shooter is not on the targets hate-list)  +z% dmg

            --  Well aimed shot (an actual ranger ability with a cast timer to simulate taking careful aim as opposed to your basic quick range-attack)  significant increase in chance to hit/chance to crit

     

     

    Example:  say the ranger has modifiers x=50%, y=50% and z=200% and assume crit damage is an additional 100% on top of base damage as well.  If the ranger takes a well aimed shot then the damage would look something like this:

    A shot that did a base of 20 damage would then inflict a maximum of 20*(1{base}+0.5{immobile target}+0.5{immobile shooter}+2{unaware target}+1{crit modifier}) = 100 dmg

     

    Now say that certain enemy statuses could open up some of these modifiers, like if the enemy is stunned or mezzed, you would regain access to the 'unaware target' modifier.  And say that the 'well aimed shot' ability had a decent cast timer, like 5 seconds.  Now there's an opportunity for synergy between the classes where the ranger announces to the group that he's taking an aimed shot, and then a crusader or enchanter could time a stun to coincide with the ability so that it hits for max effect.

     

    tldr:  Keep archery marginally realistic (no endless quiver), and make it a skill that requires some degree of strategy to employ (timed shots/synergy with other classes).  And make it more complex than simply turning on /autofire and grabbing a beer while you wait for the mob to die.

     

     

     

    • 101 posts
    December 9, 2016 10:27 PM PST

    Unless there will be a copletely seperate inventory slot to allow for ammo that doesn't take up a normal bag slot, there will be a NEED for an endless quiver type of ability.  Being at an automatic disavantage space wise to hold arrows just plain sucks.  If there is a completely seperate slot, then consumable arrows are fine.  Maybe each class would have their own special inventory bag to hold whatever class regeants they use.

    • 9 posts
    December 13, 2016 1:52 PM PST

    Radamus said:

    Unless there will be a copletely seperate inventory slot to allow for ammo that doesn't take up a normal bag slot, there will be a NEED for an endless quiver type of ability.  Being at an automatic disavantage space wise to hold arrows just plain sucks.  If there is a completely seperate slot, then consumable arrows are fine.  Maybe each class would have their own special inventory bag to hold whatever class regeants they use.

    From watching the recent Twitch stream there appears to be an ammo slot right next to where the ranged weapon goes.

    If that slot allows for a quiver (or any other ammo type pouch) that would solve some of the issues with being a class that relys on ammo for damage without having to rely on an endless quiver type mechanic.

    To help further reduce the disadvantage of being a class that relies on ammo is if the ammo contanier significantly reduced the weight of items stored inside it. Also would help if ammo would stack to a fairly high number, say 100+. It's at least 40 already based on what we saw on Twitch.

    I would like to see endless quiver in game at some point though. The one big advantage of endless quiver was you could use a high damage (and tough to craft) arrow as you'd only need 1 of them. Without endless quiver you'd be hesitant to use the expensive to buy or difficult to craft arrow. Not sure if ammo quaility would change range damage, but would be cool if it did.


    This post was edited by Cirric at December 13, 2016 1:52 PM PST
    • 9 posts
    December 30, 2016 4:21 PM PST

    Just thought of a twist on the Endless Quiver idea. How about a magical quiver that slowly fills empty slots with arrows. Or maybe the quiver can be used to summon arrows (on a reasonable CD). Those arrows can be used as is or modified by a Ranger (fletching skill or something similar) to do a variety of things based on their skill. Upgrading the base arrow takes time so you'll usually want to do it out of combat.

    There can be higher quality Endless Quivers that creates a better base arrow or creates a lower quality arrows faster.

    For the idea where the quiver slowly regens arrows you could always carry multple Endless Quivers to swap into your ammo slot for really long fights. The Endless Quiver will generate arrows even if not in your ammo slot. 

    Of course this would be a temporary solution for Rangers until we get AA's with Endless Quiver. Assuming we'll eventually get it.

    • 474 posts
    January 4, 2017 6:20 AM PST

    Ammo should be handled standard old school RPG style. Carry **** tons of arrows.

     

    To combat the issue of using all your bag space to carry those arrows I think special containers should be made that allow ammo to be stacked in larger quantities. Were arrows might normally stack in stacks of 100, these special, magical, CRAFTED containers would allow for them to stack in stacks of 1000. This container should go into a special ammo slot and not the main inventory. This would allow those who wish to use ranged comabt options the ability to carry a good supply of arrows without sacrificing general inventory or not having enough arrows for a play session. Maybe there could be some very high end loot version that is essentially an Endless Quiver where it magically summons arrows, but this would only be an item not a container. The arrows may not be as good as crafted arrows, but you'd never run out. Make these summoed arrows on par with middle quality crafted arrows maybe.

    • 82 posts
    February 7, 2017 7:38 AM PST

    I agree, a space outside of the general inventory should be made for ammo.  In combination with that, we have larger stacks and we don't have to trivalize fletching after a certain level.  The addition of a few items that can summon arrows of low to mid quality are good too.

     

    • 30 posts
    February 10, 2017 9:24 AM PST

    Endless Quiver is lazy I feel like.  But then so is making archers into "inventory management, the game".  How about instead of having items whether they're in a slot or in your bag you make ammunition a mechanic.

    IE A level 50 Archer has 20 "Ammunition" per encounter which replenishes over time.  The AoE "Bomb arrow" uses 5 ammunition to use it.

    Obviously this is a bare-bones concept but you get the gist.  It promotes resource management without the need for items in your inventory or a separate piece of gear.

    • 61 posts
    February 12, 2017 8:47 PM PST

    The problem with an 'endless quiver' is that it ruins immersion.  The problem with needing 'ammunition' is the POSSIBILITY to run out of ammunition when out in the world with your party.  You also have to use a lot of bag space.  In my opinion, a way to by-pass this is to have a quiver slot in the character page (like a piece of gear), and have that quiver hold a lot of arrows.  Like thousands and thousands.

    Also, I was absolutly in LOVE with the way Vanguard handeled arrows and foraging for materials to create them.  This was absolutly well done.


    This post was edited by Talint at February 12, 2017 8:54 PM PST
    • 4 posts
    February 14, 2017 8:20 AM PST

    I played neither EQ or Vangaurd so I may not understand some of the acronyms used already but I think "immersion" this early on is subjective. Its a magical world. While I think it would be fair and cool for rangers to be able to make their own arrows and for those arrows to be the most effective, I also hold that a summoner friend could conjur some in a fight at the cost of mana. This implements more mana-gment (punpunpunpunpun) as well as a push to make friends in game! Coming from an end game perspective, either the ammo count is high for sustainable damage or its low for high burst damage.

    • 30 posts
    February 14, 2017 8:24 AM PST

    packet said:

    I played neither EQ or Vangaurd so I may not understand some of the acronyms used already but I think "immersion" this early on is subjective. Its a magical world. While I think it would be fair and cool for rangers to be able to make their own arrows and for those arrows to be the most effective, I also hold that a summoner friend could conjur some in a fight at the cost of mana. This implements more mana-gment (punpunpunpunpun) as well as a push to make friends in game! Coming from an end game perspective, either the ammo count is high for sustainable damage or its low for high burst damage.



    I don't like the idea of having a specific group comp to be successful.  Synergy is one thing, dependency is not ok.  Let's not fall into the old pitfalls of certain classes only being worth a damn when paired with a specific other. 

    • 4416 posts
    February 14, 2017 10:02 AM PST

    Kajidourden said:

    packet said:

    I played neither EQ or Vangaurd so I may not understand some of the acronyms used already but I think "immersion" this early on is subjective. Its a magical world. While I think it would be fair and cool for rangers to be able to make their own arrows and for those arrows to be the most effective, I also hold that a summoner friend could conjur some in a fight at the cost of mana. This implements more mana-gment (punpunpunpunpun) as well as a push to make friends in game! Coming from an end game perspective, either the ammo count is high for sustainable damage or its low for high burst damage.



    I don't like the idea of having a specific group comp to be successful.  Synergy is one thing, dependency is not ok.  Let's not fall into the old pitfalls of certain classes only being worth a damn when paired with a specific other. 

    I agree with you, but I don't think packet's suggestion would necessarily cause dependency. He even said a Ranger's self-made arrows would generally be the most effective. But having a summoner that can summon unique arrows that perhaps give an advantage (not really required, but they definitely help) in certain situations would be a good way to encourage interaction between players.

    The only issue I can foresee is that if the Summoner himself has no use for those arrows, he might not bother even carrying that spell. Now on the other hand, if a Summoner can also summon a ranged pet that uses a bow and arrows, for example, the Summoner can benefit from the arrows too and share with Rangers or other classes that use a bow. That way, he doesn't have a spell that is ONLY for the purpose of benefitting another character.

    I'd also add that it would be cool to have Enchanters cast different enchantments on a stack of arrows to give them useful traits.

    • 4 posts
    February 14, 2017 12:36 PM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    Kajidourden said:

    packet said:

    I played neither EQ or Vangaurd so I may not understand some of the acronyms used already but I think "immersion" this early on is subjective. Its a magical world. While I think it would be fair and cool for rangers to be able to make their own arrows and for those arrows to be the most effective, I also hold that a summoner friend could conjur some in a fight at the cost of mana. This implements more mana-gment (punpunpunpunpun) as well as a push to make friends in game! Coming from an end game perspective, either the ammo count is high for sustainable damage or its low for high burst damage.



    I don't like the idea of having a specific group comp to be successful.  Synergy is one thing, dependency is not ok.  Let's not fall into the old pitfalls of certain classes only being worth a damn when paired with a specific other. 

    I agree with you, but I don't think packet's suggestion would necessarily cause dependency. He even said a Ranger's self-made arrows would generally be the most effective. But having a summoner that can summon unique arrows that perhaps give an advantage (not really required, but they definitely help) in certain situations would be a good way to encourage interaction between players.

    The only issue I can foresee is that if the Summoner himself has no use for those arrows, he might not bother even carrying that spell. Now on the other hand, if a Summoner can also summon a ranged pet that uses a bow and arrows, for example, the Summoner can benefit from the arrows too and share with Rangers or other classes that use a bow. That way, he doesn't have a spell that is ONLY for the purpose of benefitting another character.

    I'd also add that it would be cool to have Enchanters cast different enchantments on a stack of arrows to give them useful traits.

    I agree with Bazgrim. Ultimately I would like to see classes offering unique enchancements to other classes to add flavor, not necessarily stacking one class in a group comp to just blast through content.

    • 101 posts
    February 21, 2017 9:10 AM PST

    Rangers should be melee character first, with bow/arrow being very very powerful.  Arrows should be crafted and valuable because they do crazy damage and allow the ranger to attack from range.  There should be no endless quiver, because rangers should not be spambots.. but bow/arrow damage should still be unique to the ranger because of their skill - no other class should be able to do the same damage with bow/arrow.

    bow damage just needs to be balanced appropriately to remove the need for endless quiver.  Bow should be seen more as an 'oh crap' button, or a 'manaburn' type ability.  It can still be used as a pulling tool if you use summoned low damage arrows.