Forums » The Gnomes

The New Gnomes

    • 246 posts
    July 5, 2018 8:21 AM PDT

    Deadshade said:

    Change nothing, keep this race , its culture and lore as is, call them Sprites but just do NOT call them Gnomes

    Oh man, it's been a minute...   But yeah, what Deadshade said there.

    I'll throw "Freshling" out there too.  See, it's good for two reasons because: 1) it's a play on "Fleshling" which these guys aren't, and 2) it's so fresh.

    • 2064 posts
    July 5, 2018 12:07 PM PDT

    Still don't see a problem. They were more traditional gnomes in their past but now they are ethereal gnomes. 

    • 20 posts
    July 5, 2018 2:52 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Still don't see a problem. They were more traditional gnomes in their past but now they are ethereal gnomes. 

    There is a good dozen of people who explained quite clearly what the problem was. Just read the posts. Add me to those who also see the problem and don't recognize anything gnomish in this race. Especially as I also agree with the poster who wrote that people who like to play systematically gnomes are very partial to having their gnomes really gnomish.

    What you wrote explains or justifies nothing  - ghosts were more traditional human in their past, do you call them human? I guess you don't. Now it is the same thing with these creatures - ghosts, sprites, wraiths, haunts, shades, whatever but gnomes.

    • 2064 posts
    July 5, 2018 4:48 PM PDT

    So then the people that always like to play "traditional" fantasy gnomes and don't identify with Pantheon gnomes don't play gnomes in Pantheon. 

     

    Why are gnome so precious and special that someone can't have their own take on them? Seems they have been many different things over time:

     

    "The word comes from Renaissance Latin gnomus, which first appears in the Ex Libro de Nymphis, Sylvanis, Pygmaeis, Salamandris et Gigantibus, etc by Paracelsus, published posthumously in Nysa in 1566 (and again in the Johannes Huser edition of 1589–1591 from an autograph by Paracelsus). Paracelsus uses Gnomi as a synonym of Pygmæi and classifies them as earth elementals. He describes them as two spans high, very reluctant to interact with humans, and able to move through solid earth as easily as humans move through air."

    "The English word is attested from the early 18th century. Gnomes are used in Alexander Pope's "The Rape of the Lock". The creatures from this mock-epic are small, celestial creatures which were prudish women in their past-lives, and now spend all of eternity looking out for prudish women (in parallel to the guardian angels in Catholic belief). Other uses of the term gnome remain obscure until the early 19th century, when it is taken up by authors of Romanticist collections of fairy tales and becomes mostly synonymous with the older word goblin.

    The English translation appeared in 1896 as Among the Gnomes: An Occult Tale of Adventure in the Untersberg. In this story, the Gnomes are still clearly subterranean creatures, guarding treasures of gold within the Untersberg mountain."

    "In L. Frank Baum's Oz series (created 1900 to 1914), the Nomes (so spelled), especially their king, are the chief adversaries of the Oz people. They are ugly, hot-tempered, immortal, round-bodied with spindly legs and arms, have long beards and wild hair, live underground, and are the militant protectors/ hoarders of jewels and precious metals; Baum does not depict any female gnomes."

    "J. R. R. Tolkien, in the legendarium (created 1914 to 1973) surrounding his Elves, uses "Gnomes" as the initial and later dropped name of the Noldor, the most gifted and technologically minded of his elvish races, in conscious exploitation of the similarity with the word gnomic. Gnome is thus Tolkien's English loan-translation of the Quenya word Noldo (plural Noldor), "those with knowledge". Tolkien's "Gnomes" are generally tall, beautiful, dark-haired, light-skinned, immortal, and typically wise but suffer from pride, tend towards violence, and have an overweening love of the works of their own hands, particularly gemstones. Many of them live in cities below ground (Nargothrond) or in secluded mountain fortresses (Gondolin). He uses "Gnomes" to refer to both males and females."

    "In C. S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia (created 1950 to 1956), gnomes, or "Earthmen" as they are sometimes called, live in the Underland, a series of subterranean caverns. Unlike the traditional, more human-like gnomes, they can have a wide variety of physical features and skin colours. They are used as slaves by the Lady of the Green Kirtle."

    "In J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter series (created 1997 to 2007), gnomes are pests that inhabit the gardens of witches and wizards. They are small creatures with heads that look like potatoes on small stubby bodies. Gnomes are generally considered harmless but mischievous and may bite with sharp teeth. In the books it is stated that the Weasleys are lenient to gnomes, and tolerate their presence, preferring to throw them out of the garden rather than more extreme measures."

     

    So Gnomes have been earth elementals, celestials, ugly greedy/militant goblins/dwarves, regular dwarves, elves, small pests, and more. They have never had a solid identity as a race. But this "Icarus" version of gnomes that flew too close to the sun and are now ethereal souls woven to cloth is going too far! 


    This post was edited by Iksar at July 5, 2018 4:49 PM PDT
    • 447 posts
    July 6, 2018 8:46 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    But this "Icarus" version of gnomes that flew too close to the sun and are now ethereal souls woven to cloth is going too far! 

     

    The short answer is yes .

    The longer answer is that you should avoid copying Wikipedia . Just give a link and those interested can read it if they want - I don't because it is irrelevant . The issue is actually much simpler and Tolkien or Paracelsius have nothing to do with it . The players of MMORPG which are arguably a very large majority here, have played Gnomes in D&D, EQ, Vanguard or WoW to name only a few . The Gnomes in these games are very consistent, differentiate clearly from the Dwarves and thus obtained a quite sharply defined racial culture, skills and identity . The "Gnomes" in Pantheon don't fit with it hence people who liked to play Gnomes in those games are annoyed and can't identify these sprites with anything Gnomish . 

    It is really as simple as that and if you had read the posts above you'd have seen that everybody is saying basically this same thing with different words . Now I notice that you can't answer even the simplest questions that several people have asked like :

    - why would anybody want to call some ghosts/sprites Gnomes ? Why not keeping everything as is (lore,racial identity, souls in cloth) and call it f.ex Wraiths  what is obviously more fitting and relevant ? What is the added value in annoying a fraction of the players ? Do you call a ghost human because it was human somewhere in the past ? 

    • 2064 posts
    July 6, 2018 10:45 AM PDT

    You don't call a ghost a human (though you would probably say Human Ghost) because there are living humans and ghosts for dead (and fictitious). These Gnome aren't ghosts/spirits or otherwise deceased, they are souls that have lost flesh bodies and gained cloth ones. They are proud Gnomes, they won't change their identity/who they are because of the unfortunate circumstances that altered their physical form. I'd imagine that if all of humanity suddenly had the same thing happen overnight we wouldn't stop calling ourselves human, instead we would (in time) redefine what it is to be human. 

     

    All kinds of things in the game will probably annoy some fraction of the players but at the same time will appeal to an entirely different fraction of players, ones who may well be tired of the quirky "WoW" gnomes. Regardless, at least this decision is purely aesthetic so if someone liked gnomes as a race they still have their core qualities mostly intact; They still share familiar traits to gnomes from other games, they just aren't goofy little comic relief characters.

     

    • 126 posts
    July 9, 2018 11:35 AM PDT

    I like Pantheon's gnomes. I can understand why some people do not due to how different they are from "typical" gnomes.

     

     

    ** Disclaimer: No gnomes were harmed in the making of this post.

    • 246 posts
    July 9, 2018 2:08 PM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    I like Pantheon's gnomes.

    Hey Lucas, out of curiosity: would you like them any less if they were called Sprites?

    • 126 posts
    July 9, 2018 6:57 PM PDT

    Shai said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    I like Pantheon's gnomes.

    Hey Lucas, out of curiosity: would you like them any less if they were called Sprites?

    Probably not. Like I said, I can totally see why people are put off by the name since most "typical" fantasy races aren't energy beings, not many fit. If I were naming them I might call them ghosts or spectres maybe ( I am working under the assumption that they are intangible outside of suits ). Then we would have a different but related discussion about how my naming is deceptive and making them sound undead ( which is not an unreasonable conclusion from the name alone ).

    • 246 posts
    July 9, 2018 7:11 PM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Probably not.

    It seems like a lot of folk feel this way; they like the lore and they like the art, but either don't care about them being called "gnomes" (e.g. you) or else actively hate it (e.g Deadshade).

    #notagnome

    • 1194 posts
    July 9, 2018 11:39 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    You don't call a ghost a human (though you would probably say Human Ghost) because there are living humans and ghosts for dead (and fictitious). These Gnome aren't ghosts/spirits or otherwise deceased, they are souls that have lost flesh bodies and gained cloth ones. They are proud Gnomes, they won't change their identity/who they are because of the unfortunate circumstances that altered their physical form. I'd imagine that if all of humanity suddenly had the same thing happen overnight we wouldn't stop calling ourselves human, instead we would (in time) redefine what it is to be human. 

     

    All kinds of things in the game will probably annoy some fraction of the players but at the same time will appeal to an entirely different fraction of players, ones who may well be tired of the quirky "WoW" gnomes. Regardless, at least this decision is purely aesthetic so if someone liked gnomes as a race they still have their core qualities mostly intact; They still share familiar traits to gnomes from other games, they just aren't goofy little comic relief characters.

     

    Agreeing with iksar here : Any population threatened to loose it's identity would enforce it somehow, beeing it by name or an excessive conservation of behavior, culture and such. Because in hard time it's IMPORTANT to remember who you are and where you come from.

     

    • 447 posts
    July 13, 2018 11:21 AM PDT

    Shai said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Probably not.

    It seems like a lot of folk feel this way; they like the lore and they like the art, but either don't care about them being called "gnomes" (e.g. you) or else actively hate it (e.g Deadshade).

    #notagnome

     

    Yes this is exactly the point I am making . If one fraction of players likes a race concept but doesn't care about the name and the complementary fraction also likes or is indifferent to the race concept as long as it is not called X (because X evokes for them something completely different) then there is only ONE rational decision satisfying everybody - do not call this race X and choose anything else instead .

    The first fraction is satisfied because they didn't care about the name anyway . The second fraction is satisfied too because the race is not called X . Those who'd like to play it, play it . Problem solved and nobody was antagonized .

    As the decision taken doesn't seem to be rational and doesn't satisfy everybody I can only guess why it is so . If I exclude the case where the devs want to intentionally anatagonize a fraction of players even if it can be avoided , I see only an artificial research of "originality" at any cost . This technique is sometimes used in (bad) novels - design a 7 legged 1 m tall carnivore insect and as it has been already done, call it elephant and explain at great length how much elefantness there is to show how creative and original you are .

    Of course it rarely works because there are always children like in the Anderson tale who will point at the thing and say "Hey, it is just a 7 legged bug ."

    • 2064 posts
    July 16, 2018 11:36 AM PDT

    Except in this case it is a race that is a gnome, looks like a gnome, and once had a fleshy body of a gnome but due to a tragic incident in gnomish history now have cloth bodies. Not much of a stretch.

     

    It's a cool twist to a portion of players you are leaving out of your equation. Some don't care about the name one way or another, some are obsessed with the name gnome not being used if they aren't a copy of gnomes from other games, and some find the Pantheon gnomes to be an interesting take on the race with the lore to back it. 

     

     

    • 19 posts
    August 27, 2018 4:15 PM PDT

    You guys,

    I actually love the lore and love the thought that went into these gnomes. I've read many a "obsessed worker becomes fused with work" tropes and this one is unique and captivating to me.

    I dont think they should be called anything besides Gnome, these are gnomes according to pantheon cannon - this is inarguable. I just wish that some of the gnomes were left over from the disaster, and that those gnomes are the ones players could take the role of.

    Man there could be some really cool lore with the new gnomes trying to make all the old gnomes convert to the new ways..like all the good x-men arcs from the 90's.

    Hypothetically, (I know lol here comes, but please bear with me and try not to be instantly turned away by this WHAT IF)

    What if elves became too obsessed and close to nature and became some sort of plant based life form, do you this this is a suitable pc race for a game whose goal is to make the player feel standard and vulnerable in a big, beautiful and dangerous world? I don't, and the cult following of elf players certainly wouldnt (I know, speaking for masses I dont know, shame on me).

    The elvish cult following would be outraged.

    I will say that I would love to see some sort of NPC faction on a continent or maybe some dungeon content that has some "elves messed with nature too much and became treants" lore.

    However, having half nature elemental elves as a PC is content you might see on the 10th or 11th expansion. Along with half dragon characters and cerebus mounts- when the majority of the original team has moved on to other projects.

    As time goes on and I dwell over these gnomes it starts to sink in, the answers to the reasoning to why the Devs chose this route with their cannon. Its Because its thiers, and they can do with it what they want.

    Gnomes have dug themselves place in pop culture now as the slapstick and immature comedic relief in a high fantasy/ sword and sorcery setting. I have faith that this game is going to be just as much of an epic opera as EQ and then some- and I agree that sort of comic relief that is a current staple of what the general associate with gnomes is not the comic relief that does well in an epic opera.

    You know what it was? I was playing a pen and paper campaign a year or so ago and a couple joined in as gnomes. They were doing this jewish mother bit. It was awful, and I thought "is this what gnomes are now?". I mean I knew they played off the pestering and annoying in your business stuff here and there but this cutsie, baby voice, inquisitive and talking over stuff is awful.

    I blame *EDIT*

    The more I think about it the more warm I become to the idea of gnomes being repainted, instead of being dropped from the roster.

    Hard not to give in to such good writing just because of a concept.

    There is now a third group @keiparo:

         -People that have always liked gnomes that disliked Pantheon gnomes but are now starting to be okay with Pantheon gnomes.

    Where's my bathroom?


    This post was edited by Grime at August 27, 2018 4:20 PM PDT