Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Raid Loot

    • 66 posts
    October 2, 2015 10:54 AM PDT

    I'd like to open a conversation how about how raid loot should work in Pantheon. Aside from simply wanting to just help your guild and having fun, in EQ1, there was really only two practical benefits for raiding. 

    #1 - The very small chance you might actually win something in a 50+ person raid

    #2 - Getting keyed or flagged for higher end zones.

    I definitely think both of these benefits should remain intact, however, I think further practical incentives for raiding should be added to Pantheon.

    #3 - Make raiding give really good exp! I never understood why in EQ1 a full night of raiding wouldn't even land me 1 AA (at least during luclin/PoP era)

    #4 - Instant personal reward for being part of a raid that downs a target. (Like everyone in the raid splits up a bounty in the form of gold automatically, for example.)

    #5 - Make class specific quested armor more tedius and convoluted to do, but with the ability to make progress on the quests more consistent. What I mean is this - In EQ, PoP elemental gear was obtained by being lucky enough to have your guild reward you with an EP mold, and then completeing a relatively easy quest once the mold was obtained. I'm saying, every time a player raids, they should feel like they are always or at least most of the time making progress towards finishing those class specific armor quests. A way to accomplish this is to have a raid boss drop like 10 or more of the same quest piece that everyone needs in order to do their armor quests. This way your odds of getting the quest piece is relatively high, so you will feel like you are moving forward in your quest almost every time you raid. The quest may require five or more of these drops, and for you to invest even more solo and group time to finish it, but it's that knowledge that you are making progress that keeps you motivated. This would help mitigate the discouragement a player might feel when they are constantly not winning the drops they want, while at the same time, making the rate at which players finish these quests pretty much the same. It would also help mitigate the potential for guild drama when it comes to item drops (at least a little bit!). The reward for these quests would and should be comparable (or maybe even better) than the gear that is dropping from the raid targets themselves.

     

    Perhaps these ideas have already been tried in newer MMOs (I'm not sure, because I haven't really played them enough to know). But assuming not, what do you guys think of these ideas? Especially #5.

     


    This post was edited by Linkamus at October 7, 2015 3:48 PM PDT
    • 793 posts
    October 2, 2015 11:58 AM PDT

    #5 it would be nice to see that if a mob is known to be the only source for a certain quest item, and that mob takes 30,40 or 50 people to take down, that the number of the quest items that drops is increased. Sucks for 50 people to be tryng to 2 drops. But at the same time I don't like the "Everyone automatically gets the peice they need" system that has become normal in many MMOs

    While on this type of subject, I would like to see a feature that when the group leader (or whoever) kneel to loot the mob, that the loot window pops up for everyone in the group/raid, only the looter can actually grab anything, but everyone gets to see what dropped and start checking stats etc. Maybe even include the "Need/Greed" check boxes that then gives the looter and/or raid leader a breakdown of peoples interest.

     

    • 66 posts
    October 2, 2015 12:12 PM PDT
    Fulton said:

    #5 it would be nice to see that if a mob is known to be the only source for a certain quest item, and that mob takes 30,40 or 50 people to take down, that the number of the quest items that drops is increased. Sucks for 50 people to be tryng to 2 drops. But at the same time I don't like the "Everyone automatically gets the peice they need" system that has become normal in many MMOs

    While on this type of subject, I would like to see a feature that when the group leader (or whoever) kneel to loot the mob, that the loot window pops up for everyone in the group/raid, only the looter can actually grab anything, but everyone gets to see what dropped and start checking stats etc. Maybe even include the "Need/Greed" check boxes that then gives the looter and/or raid leader a breakdown of peoples interest.

     

    I agree that not everyone should automatically get the piece they need on a boss kill. For the most part, I just think players should feel like they are making progress towards their goals, or at least have a good chance to make progress every time they raid. In EQ, it felt like winning the lottery sometimes when winning an item, and while I think that aspect should still exist, it shouldn't be the only way to get top end gear on a toon.

    • 511 posts
    October 2, 2015 12:40 PM PDT

    One system I would like to see in place for Pantheon is a hybrid loot system.

    Raid Zone is locked until you finish a quest to get in (never was a fan of hey you're max level, congrats no go raid these lewt boss) and on the way you get a special item, we will call it raid Item A.

    Raid drops Boss XYZ - Boss drops loot from his table similar to EQ. 2-3 good pieces, 1-2 great pieces per boss kill. Your raid force devies up the raid loot any way they seem fit. However, everyone that was in on the boss kill gets a counter on their Raid Item A. Once that item caps out you can either right click to evolve it (if that system can be implemented) or trade it in to the special raid merchant for a piece of loot. Higher powered items can even require 2-3 of these items if needed to balance the system out.

    This way each raid force is guaranteed at least some gear on the spot, and every raider is guaranteed at least some progress on their own gear but are not locked to a single slot. I hate when a game has such a system where you upgrade say your feet first, and the first item that you get from a raid is your feet… /wave my fist at you RNGeezus!!

    • 511 posts
    October 2, 2015 12:44 PM PDT
    Linkamus said:

    I agree that not everyone should automatically get the piece they need on a boss kill. For the most part, I just think players should feel like they are making progress towards their goals, or at least have a good chance to make progress every time they raid. In EQ, it felt like winning the lottery sometimes when winning an item, and while I think that aspect should still exist, it shouldn't be the only way to get top end gear on a toon.

    I agree EQ system was either you won a million dollars or you won nothing in the RNG lottery.  Read my post and let me know if you think that is a good balance of EQ's "Don't want everything to be givign to people" way and other games "lets give everyone gear every boss kill"

    • 1434 posts
    October 2, 2015 1:13 PM PDT

    There could be a system like in EQ2 where when you kill a boss it yields AA experience. If there is some form of alternate advancement or experience that goes towards abilities in general, killing raid mobs could give a heap of it. Then even though most of the raid didn't get loot, there is some personal benefit.

    The thing is, there is only so much you can accomplish each raid. The harder the content, the slower the progression. Theres a reason only a few people will get upgrades a night on a raid. That is just the way it has to be as you climb towards the top of the content. If everyone can easily achieve everything, it loses much of the feeling of accomplishment and exclusivity. I'm all for some form of progress though while raiding so you have something to show for your time.

    • 66 posts
    October 2, 2015 1:20 PM PDT

    Dreconic - Yes, I think we're on the same page philisophically. I by no means think gear should be "easier" to attain than it was in EQ1, I just think it should be more consistent, and controlled by the player more. Less RNG dependent.  

    Don't get me wrong, some items should be completely RNG dependent. That creates fun and exciting moments. I just don't think winning the lottery should be the only way to acquire the best gear.

    I'm not sure I agree with your implementation, however. Simply generating "points" for killing targets and then turning them into a merchant seems like kind of an immersion killer to me. I think acquiring these items should be more quest based.

    • 66 posts
    October 2, 2015 1:24 PM PDT
    Dullahan said:

    Theres a reason only a few people will get upgrades a night on a raid. That is just the way it has to be as you climb towards the top of the content. If everyone can easily achieve everything, it loses much of the feeling of accomplishment and exclusivity. I'm all for some form of progress though while raiding so you have something to show for your time.

    This is why, if you read my original post closely, I say that the rate in which players attain gear remains the same. Let's say as a raider, it takes you on average 40 raid hours to attain a piece of raid loot. Sometimes much less, sometimes much more, but on average, 40 hours.

    So long as the quests I described take about that long to accomplish in raid hours, then the pacing of progression is not affected, but the ability for the player to feel *in control* of their progress is greatly affected, and in a good way.


    This post was edited by Linkamus at October 2, 2015 1:24 PM PDT
    • 1434 posts
    October 2, 2015 5:52 PM PDT

    I guess it would just be much easier to speculate if we were just altering an old EQ or VG style of raid progression. Who knows what they have planned, but I agree there should be something else to progress along the way that doesn't make the grind feel so grindy.

    In EQ you also had abilities that were very rare that dropped more commonly off mobs. Whether its some sort of quests that can be completed from raid "trash", exp or abilities, its good to have something to work towards on the daily - even while raiding.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at October 2, 2015 5:53 PM PDT
    • 511 posts
    October 2, 2015 8:48 PM PDT
    The great thing about what VR is doing is that they are giving us a voice (and pretty strong one from what I have seen so far) in how the game is sculpted. They know that they are making the game for us and want to make a game we find fun that fits in where there vision of the game. So stuff like this are probably still soft coded at best and able to be changed if needed.
    • 578 posts
    October 2, 2015 10:37 PM PDT

    Whatever they cook up I'm sure it will be fine. EQ is obviously the starting point and though not perfect it had a lot of strengths to the system.

    VG had a great raiding format and you definitely never had to raid 40 hours for one item (unless you're in a top guild and are waiting for new content). VG had MANY different angles to aim for raiding. You had bosses that you needed prerequisites for before you could reach them. You had bosses/areas you needed keyed to get to. You had bosses that anybody could reach such as overland bosses. You had quests you could do to get great raid gear. Bosses dropped there own good loot. Then you had your set pieces to work towards as well, giving you that progression feeling constantly even if you haven't looted something great. Raids capped out at 24 players so you didn't have to worry about suiting up 50+ people. I believe bosses dropped spells and abilities for players to loot as well. Basically in VG if you weren't getting good raid loot it was becuase you weren't clearing enough content. But as long as you were dropping a decent amount of bosses in good time you were getting loot at a decent clip.

    I'd love to see Pantheon follow along with VG's raiding format but evolved im some way. XP was always something raiders knew they weren't going to see. One reason was  that most players were already max level when raiding. But I don't see why raiding has to avoid giving good xp, possibly some people are raiding before max level. AA's are one possibility but we have to have AA's first off to even discuss this as a feature.

    • 160 posts
    October 3, 2015 7:13 AM PDT
    Linkamus said:

    #1 - The very small chance you might actually win something in a 50+ person raid


     

    In a proper guild, getting loot on a raid is NOT a matter of chance. A well-made DKP system will make it rather deterministic, the people who put in the most effort, get the most loot over long time.

    Of course, it's possible to make a wrong dkp system, and in a merit system (officer award) it's also possible to be wrong. But that's a mistake of one specific guild and/or one specific system.

    A good DKP system (for example, a variation of zero-sum dkp) will not have such problems, and in the long run is the only way to run a guild without constant drama and uncertainty.

     


    This post was edited by Aethor at October 3, 2015 7:14 AM PDT
    • 511 posts
    October 3, 2015 7:51 AM PDT
    Aethor said:
    Linkamus said:

    #1 - The very small chance you might actually win something in a 50+ person raid


     

    In a proper guild, getting loot on a raid is NOT a matter of chance. A well-made DKP system will make it rather deterministic, the people who put in the most effort, get the most loot over long time.

    Of course, it's possible to make a wrong dkp system, and in a merit system (officer award) it's also possible to be wrong. But that's a mistake of one specific guild and/or one specific system.

    A good DKP system (for example, a variation of zero-sum dkp) will not have such problems, and in the long run is the only way to run a guild without constant drama and uncertainty.

     

    The problem is though if you are only getting say 2-3 boss kills a night, with 2-3 gear drops a night that is 4-9 pieces of gear. Or about 10-20% of your raid (assuming a raid is 50 people for easy math) getting gear each night (assuming no one gets more than one). To get everyone in your raid a piece of gear takes 5-10 raids. Most raids being 3-4 hours that is about 15 hours on a low end (more hardcore raiders that can clear stuff faster) and about 40 hours of raiding for a casual guild that may be a month.

     

    So yes while a good DKP or other raid loot system will award those that show up more and do their job, it still doesn’t fix the fundamental problem (that the OP and many other see) with raid loot in the first place. The time investment needed per piece of loot is very high.

    To look at it another way let's look at the loot as an item over time instead of player investment over time.

    Going back to the above - in EQ most bosses gave 2-3 worth while loot pieces, some more but on avg let's go with this.

    A mob took 50-70 people in early to mid EQ (up through Demiplane at least). A good raid force after getting the strats down would still take 2 nights of raiding 3-4 hours to clear CoA. CoA has 6 bosses not counting aug mobs. So on a clear that is 12-18 pieces let's say 15 avg to keep math simplified.

    We now have 54 people in this raid, putting in 2 full days. That is 324 raider hours put into clearing the zone (54x6) to 432 raid hours (54x8). Divide that by 15 and we see that a guild able to clear it in 6 hours gets one piece for every 26.1 raider hours invested and 1 piece for every 28.8 raider hours in an 8 hour clear.

    Now assume you were on that raid that everyone has been on and the min drops and only 12 pieces drop total and your looking at 30 and 40+ hours per item…

    So while I do like the EQ and VG system of giving loot out and would play Pantheon if they went this route again, it would be nice to have a little bit more incentive, specially for the more casual player, to make them see raiding as a decent option for progressing character and not just as a “hard core” person mechanic.

    /TL:DR

    Lots of math - need something to make casual raiders especially, feel like raiding is for them and not just the hardcore.

    • 2138 posts
    October 3, 2015 7:56 AM PDT

    I was a part of a sophisticated DKP system, That worked out well, It did not make new members feel they had a long row to hoe, so to speak because it eliminated competition in accumulating DKP points and designed to prevent loot-whores and bazaar-natics from accumulting instead of getting and moving on and staying because you...wanted to...and not because you were able to accompish in game what you could not in your pathetic life, outside because it stood to reason that your life would be pathetic outside, if you got your jollies from thinking you were succeeding in a pixel economy being such the innate clever merchant. the attitude " you sopend so much time on that,can you make money from it?" was not to be taken seriously if this is what a parental unit or guardian thrust upon the ears of those that fell into this trap, it was meant to say, apply your efforts elsewhere, and enjoy the game for the game itself, don't make the game a job. Instead, dont play, get a part time job and build your empire IRL.


    This post was edited by Manouk at October 3, 2015 7:58 AM PDT
    • 338 posts
    October 3, 2015 8:16 AM PDT

    I don't really subscribe to the new club that everyone gets a cookie for participation.

     

    I want loot to be rare and impressive when obtained... Here's to hoping that we won't even see all the drops for a long time.

     

    Let DKP sort out who gets what.

     

    I'm not even sure I want to see class sets until the first expansion or something... Just Archtype sets would be fine imo.

     

    The big question that will dictate this is how many players in a raid and how many loots does a raid mob drop.

     

    Hmm that would make an interesting thread on its own really... How many players would you like to see in raids ?

     

    I'll have to think on that for a bit because I'm not even really sure how many I would like to see in raid groups.

     

     

    Thanks for reading my ramble,

    Kiz~

    • 511 posts
    October 3, 2015 8:43 AM PDT

    I believe they said raids would be 4-6 groups, and groups are 8 people so we are looking at 32-48 people?


    This post was edited by Dreconic at October 3, 2015 8:43 AM PDT
    • 338 posts
    October 3, 2015 8:58 AM PDT

    Groups are 8 people ??? That would be dumb as hell... I hope its actually 6 and your just wrong.

     

     

    Kiz~

    • 23 posts
    October 3, 2015 9:30 AM PDT
    Angrykiz said:

    Groups are 8 people ??? That would be dumb as hell... I hope its actually 6 and your just wrong.

     

    Kiz~

    Currently this courtesy of the FAQ:

    How big are groups in Pantheon?

    There will be a limit to group size (currently 6-8 players, but that’s not set in stone) to add a tactical element in terms of group configuration.

     


    This post was edited by Yvyll at October 3, 2015 7:45 PM PDT
    • 13 posts
    October 4, 2015 8:10 AM PDT

    I believe that the element of accomplishment to be derived from an actual raid clear as opposed to the mess of shiny bauble appraisal that it amounts to.  The gear is not the trophy, especially not in the nature of it being handed out by lady luck's blind whims, laying the smack down on tough content is it.  If content simply devolves into a ritual event of piñata punting then I feel like something is wrong there; that the content is not unforgiving enough that 'everybody' is apparently capable of downing the encounter.

    Then there's what can be said of the flash-in-a-pan pushes that result in one kill, and one kill only and ever... yet that group makes off with some epic loot... while there's me, 30 times and counting, clearing constantly and yet have nothing to kit myself out with - kit that is oft invariably required to take the next step upwards.  Where's my sense of 'progression'?  Clearly I'm good enough to go further yet I'm stopped fast by this silly gear grind that I may well never see an end to because my luck just blows.  Not even elaborate DKP systems can stop luck being a dick and just not giving out the goods.  I can tell you, it's a serious motivation killer... and one that's had me walk away from more than a couple of MMOs.  If I like a fight then I'll keep at it even after I've collected all that I need from it; I'll extend my services to the server at large; but perhaps I'm a minority in that respect... in that I don't specifically 'need' a carrot dangled in front of me to keep playing a game - or MMO in particular.  Invisible walls that threaten to hem me in though, that's a different story.

    With that all being said, I would absolutely abhor the system to be a matter of good fortune... I'd like to see myself rewarded for consistency.  I wouldn't be asking for something like guaranteed looting rights; no, but a tokenized system would go a long way to make sure people like me, whose main consistency lies in being continually disappointed in never seeing any realistic yields, :p have their determination alive and kindled as opposed to snuffed out.  Is this asking for cookies for being a 'mere' participant in a raid?  Really?  I thought it was meant to be a team effort... and it's not like I'm sitting afk in the background~.

    The question would then be just how many trinkets would one require for a turn in?  Nothing that would seem like taking candy from a minor, a freebie... but then where does one draw the line with how back-breaking the upper bracket should be in receiving guaranteed items?  I have confidence that a happy-medium could be established in this sector though. 

    Imo, if there really must be something artificially rendered 'rare' via luck; make those in the form of mounts or otherwise novelty items... and not essential gear.

     

     


    This post was edited by ThreeBeastSmile at October 4, 2015 8:35 AM PDT
    • 511 posts
    October 4, 2015 9:57 AM PDT
    ThreeBeastSmile said:

    I wouldn't be asking for something like guaranteed looting rights; no, but a tokenized system would go a long way to make sure people like me, whose main consistency lies in being continually disappointed in never seeing any realistic yields, :p have their determination alive and kindled as opposed to snuffed out. 

     

    I think at one time or another, every single person has felt like this! This is one reason I like to play the classes that other people don't. Greater chance at loot :D


    This post was edited by Dreconic at October 4, 2015 9:57 AM PDT
    • 160 posts
    October 4, 2015 2:32 PM PDT
    Dreconic said:

     

    The problem is though if you are only getting say 2-3 boss kills a night, with 2-3 gear drops a night that is 4-9 pieces of gear. Or about 10-20% of your raid (assuming a raid is 50 people for easy math) getting gear each night (assuming no one gets more than one). To get everyone in your raid a piece of gear takes 5-10 raids. Most raids being 3-4 hours that is about 15 hours on a low end (more hardcore raiders that can clear stuff faster) and about 40 hours of raiding for a casual guild that may be a month.

     

    So yes while a good DKP or other raid loot system will award those that show up more and do their job, it still doesn’t fix the fundamental problem (that the OP and many other see) with raid loot in the first place. The time investment needed per piece of loot is very high.

     

    What you described is either a very inefficient guild, or a badly designed game. Once a zone is on farm status (meaning, when the guild knows how to kill bosses), you should kill a lot more than 2-3 bosses.

     

    Back in EQ time, I was leading raids, the best time in Vex Thal was about 3.5 hours from the first blob on the ground floor, to Aten, leaving two bosses in the side passages with keys. That was about 35 items per raid. In WoW, Molten Core, clear the whole zone in a few hours, complete with the final boss, the big fire elemental thingie.

     

     

    • 160 posts
    October 4, 2015 3:35 PM PDT
    Dreconic said:
    ThreeBeastSmile said:

    I wouldn't be asking for something like guaranteed looting rights; no, but a tokenized system would go a long way to make sure people like me, whose main consistency lies in being continually disappointed in never seeing any realistic yields, :p have their determination alive and kindled as opposed to snuffed out. 

     

    I think at one time or another, every single person has felt like this! This is one reason I like to play the classes that other people don't. Greater chance at loot :D

     

    A tokenized system looks good in theory - I believe at one point several well-known guild and/or raid leaders recommended it - and then it got implemented in some games (Rift comes to mind).

    The problem is that then everyone will wear the same items. Everyone will know what items are the very best, very minmax items for his class, and use his tokens in the same way.

     

    With simple item drops (which the guild then distributes according to dkp or in some other way), you get what's available, if you have a lot of dkp you will have more, but not everyone can wear the same. This is in the long run better. I don't think that everyone wearing the same cookie-cutter outfit is good for the game.

     

    • 41 posts
    October 4, 2015 6:16 PM PDT

    I think, ultimately, loot rules will depend on if there will be any instancing in the game, in whatever form it may or may not take.  I think that we should have a very limited form of instancing because if the game is popular, we're going to run into problems with space and people stuck "not being able to progress" --- Either by no mobs to kill or they cant get a piece of gear they want because X Guild has the camp locked down on rotation, ect.

     

    However, I do not feel like unlimited instanced dungeons would be a good thing.  People will just farm it all day.

     

    Keep this in mind as well:  As time goes on and the game ages, people will know where the best items are... (Golden Efreeti Boots, Journeymans Ring, Flowing Black Silk Sash, ect.) ... and these places will become heavily farmed/camped.  People will monopolize a spawn just to corner the market for a particular item --- Not because they need the item.  Guilds will do this to gear up their members for raiding.  In non-instanced zones, it will become very hard for the majority of the population to get said items from these camps because of player interferance.  This isn't a "challenge" to overcome --- It doesn't make a game more challenging... just frustrating.  I would like to see some type of token system to relieve the stress off some of these popular camps.  

     

    Tokens could, for example, come from an instanced version of a zone/dungeon that has no respawning monsters and has a time limit.  This style of dungeon is only accessable once per week.  This will prevent people from just sitting in their own private dungeon for farming purposes.  I propose that the group have some type of goal to get their token ---  kill the final boss, retreive an item from a chest deep inside, ect.  Any named that are spawned when the instanced zone is created could POSSIBLY drop NON-TRADABLE VERSIONS of the items they drop in the sandbox version.  This could potentially not even be something groups could consider completing with a hard time limit on the dungeon.  "Will we have time to get this named, and still get to our token goal in time?"  The token goal may not even be in the same spot every time too, adding to the difficulty.   This can also add extra "content" to the game --- A time trial of sorts.

     

    Tokens can potentially be spent on (some or all) items that normally drop in that dungeon --- But they will not be tradable.  Considering the time lock on the instanced dungeon, it will be far more appealing to go into a dungeon that isn't heavily camped and get all the items you want in a few days if your group is good.  If the dungeon is packed, you can run the instanced version, get some no-drop versions over a longer period of time... and maybe get lucky with some named if your group is quick and skilled enough to do so.

     

     

    As far as raids...  I really feel that raiding should be instanced completely.  However, please do add open world un-instanced bosses that people can fight over though.  I enjoyed racing for EQ1 bosses like Lodizal, King Tormax, Trakanon, Venril Sathir, ect.   However, "End-Game" is what sells MMO's these days.  It is what gives people something to do when their character is finally capped.  You could possibly not do instancing for raid bosses if there's enough content for group-play though --- EQ1 was the only game that really had enough content to pull this off though.

     

     

    • 511 posts
    October 4, 2015 6:34 PM PDT

    My plan was that "token" items would be of lesser quality than actual raid drops items. Not by much but say the current end game group chest gives 75 HP and the top raid gear gives 100 then the token gear would be about 85, better than the group gear so that when you get a full set you are better, but not as good as the raid gear that you really want. Also in my ideal MMO all top gear would be crafted. Raid loot+raid drop item to max level crafter gives epic raid loot.

    Also, in one expansion, unless you're in a super high end guild you should not be able to get all your raiders completely geared out. WoW was wrong in this approach. I rather liked Eq's tier system (this is a simplified explanation for those that don't know it):

    • Tier 1 - Expansion 1: End Game Group Gear - Expansion 2: Basic Group Gear - Expansion 3: Basic Quest Gear (gear gathered near max level while leveling up)
    • Tier 2 - Expansion 1: Starter Raid Gear (token)  - Expansion 2: End Game Group Gear - Expansion 3: Basic Group Gear
    • Tier 3 - Expansion 1: Mid Tier Raid Gear (dropped) - Expansion 2: Starter Raid Gear (token) - Expansion 3: End Game group Gear
    • Tier 4 - Expansion 1: End Tier Raid Gear (Crafted) - Expansion 2: Mid Tier Raid Gear (dropped) - Expansion 3: Starter Raid Gear (token)
    • Tier 5 - Expansion 2: End Tier Raid gear (Crafted) - Expansion 3: Mid Tier Raid Gear (dropped)
    • Tier 5 - Expansion 3: End Tier Raid Gear (Crafted)

    This keeps old expansions relevant (how many people in EQ still raided PoP (ele+time) in GoD, Still raided velious (NToV etc) in Luclin. Heck, we still grouped in old word zones because it was still worthwhile XP and loot. Now in Wow soon as the next expansion comes out no one touches the old content save to level up a new alt, and no one touches the old raids save for achievement hunting.

    This also helps combat stat inflation. EQ has done a pretty good job of it, WoW not so much (does anyone really like replacing a raid chest you took 6 months to get with the first chest piece you find in 6 minutes into the new expansion?).

    • 511 posts
    October 4, 2015 6:39 PM PDT
    Silvanoshi said:

    As far as raids...  I really feel that raiding should be instanced completely.  However, please do add open world un-instanced bosses that people can fight over though.  I enjoyed racing for EQ1 bosses like Lodizal, King Tormax, Trakanon, Venril Sathir, ect.   However, "End-Game" is what sells MMO's these days.  It is what gives people something to do when their character is finally capped.  You could possibly not do instancing for raid bosses if there's enough content for group-play though --- EQ1 was the only game that really had enough content to pull this off though.

     

     

    I explained more on what i meant by token system in my previous post, but wanted to touch on raiding instances. I feel VG did a very good job of this ballance. Yes people like that contested mob, but that usually only favors the top 2-3 guilds on a server or 80-120 people depending on raid size in PFR. Allowing the aqueduct to have limited instances (was it 3 or 4 i forget…) made it so that casual guilds could still have something to raid (Most nights the first two wings were spawned) and gave the elite guilds harder area to work on that would also be open.
    So I agree with you here, main raid zones instanced, with plenty of open world mobs on various spawns for people to fight over. Makes for a  very fun raid night. People start logging in and first thing was all trackers, people that could run fast, or later on people with gryphons, would scout out any open world mob up. IF one was up we all hurried there, if none up we went to the Aqueduct