A very...candid question.
Assume for a moment that Visionary Realms charges the somewhat standard 15$/month sub. Assume that you recieve funding to make the game perhaps somewhat according to your ambitions and specs (erring on the side of caution and all that). Assume that you manage to pull together a lot of the gamers who have been missing this sort of gaming experience.
We all know that it takes money to keep something like this going. To keep it alive. To keep it updated, bugs to be fixed while simultaneously working on new content. To keep the servers up and pay electricity and bandwith. To keep a staff of people employed and fed, and keep their families from starving.
Yes, obviously we'd all want as many subs as possible. WoW has had 13 million of them at some point. Other MMO's had less. But how much does an MMO the size of Pantheon (again, if you create it according to specs) need to survive, pay the bills and keep it growing?
I ask because i have literally zero clue, and i'm honestly curious. I look at the Facebook page and see 10 000 likes. A fair number. A good number even.
Is this one of those "it depends on a couple of million variables"-question that's not answerable? Or is there an answer to this, a number where you can say "Yeah, if we get these many and keep these many subs, the game'll work. If we go below, we'll start to go into the red."
Feel free to enlighten me, if you're able to (provided it doesn't break some trade secrets or something ;))!
I do apologize, but I can't get too specific here. There are indeed a lot of variables and we are still some time away from launch.
I can say we won't need even close to the crazy numbers some of the more recent incredibly expensive MMOs need (or what they've said they'd need to not have to change revenue models). And it's not just that we aren't spending lots of $$, but we're also keeping the team lean and mean, approaching development with the experience of multiple MMOs behind us (and learning from both triumphs and mistakes), etc.
Hey Aradune!
Thanks for your response - it was more or less what i was looking for, actually :). I figured that logically the subscription needs when you're making a niche game and marketing it as such shouldn't be close to the needs of an MMO like Star Wars or ESO. I mean, christ, just to make back those 200-300 million is going to be a hell on earth. It feels like a model like this - mean and lean - is the better way to go for something like this. I'm still curious about the "magic number", number of subs needed to be profitable, but that can wait. I look forward to seeing this evolve and i have faith in the team you've gathered and keep gathering.
And like you said, decades of experience!
Keep on rocking!
Will Gladly pay a $50/month fee. In my opinion the $15/month fee is antiquated. I pay $120/month for satellite t.v. I pay $120/month for my cell phone. I pay almost $50 to take my family to the movies for an hour and a half. Hell I even pay $5.50 for a shitty coffee with whip cream and sugar sometimes.
Let's just assume an MMO needs $15/month to survive with 100,000 players. Make it $30 a month now they can do it with 50,000 players. Make it $60 now they can do it with 25,000 players.
Reality is a niche game like this is not going to be targeted towards children nor will it have an enourmous player base so lets pay for our entertainment with a realistic figure and support this company. Sure a lot of people are going to complain but the type of people looking towards this type of game are going to pay.
My suggestion to the Dev's offer 30-60 days free with purchase and charge atleast $30/month. Or offer subscription packages with perks that don't effect gameplay like housing or vanity items.
I think the FAQ answer covers these quesitons -- if not, let me know.
We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.
No, absolutely not. The first 5-10 levels of the game (details TBD) will be absolutely free, without handicaps. Nor will there be a physical box you have to buy (although we are not ruling out the option of purchasing a special, premium box for those who like to have something tangible to go along with their virtual world). We feel strongly that you should have the opportunity to play and experience Pantheon for a time and then decide if the game is right for you before having to pull out your wallet.
I do not like F2P, with micro transactions, because it seems to almost always turn into Pay 2 Win (P2W). Even charging for micro expansions means you can put easy to obtain, "l337" items in expansions to temp people to buy them. It's the same net result as P2W any way it's spun.
The two models I believe in:
1) Buy the game (you can maintain a fixed price indefinitely) with subscription and F2P option. -Subscribers get more character slots, more bank slots, faster access to game servers, and other services like transfers and the like. Free players get 1 or 2 character slots, less bank slots, and have to wait in a queue if the server is overloaded.
2) Buy the game with only subscription as an option.
In both options, expansions are free.
I think treating the game as an 'App as a Service' is a way that not only remove blocks that keep players apart but also will make the devleopment easier becuase you know all players have the complete game. This way you don't have to spend time coming up with tacked on transport systems or invisible walls to block out players that don't have access. It's also irritating as a player to not be able to go certain places with a group or have my group not be able to come to me because 1 person doesn't have the expansion.
With this model the development team just keeps creating content without fragmentation. You don't have to break them up into expansion team or bug team, or have expansions that ship early and buggy because of marketing or budget pressure. You just keep making the game and pushing out content when it's ready for players. Without having split budgets for expansions if you need more bugs squashed , shift the team around. You need more content created, shift the team back. As a small team having this type of flexability, I think, would be beneficial.
Just as a side note, i'd love a physical box, if possible. I still got the collector's edition of Vanguard at home and the cloth map of the continents is nice and framed. Plus, artbooks are part of the reason i buy the games! (nah, not really. But artbooks are nice ;)). Hope to see this option at release, considering the amount of splendid artists and people the team has.
Edit: Also, i love Prominus's sub idea. Realistic payments is something i'm definitely on board with, considering that i pay more than a monthly sub fee for a 6-pack of german beers. I know i'd pay it. My girlfriend would pay it. Friends would pay it. But it still makes me wonder if enough people would. But...an issue for later. Something to consider :).
Prominus said:
Will Gladly pay a $50/month fee. In my opinion the $15/month fee is antiquated. I pay $120/month for satellite t.v. I pay $120/month for my cell phone. I pay almost $50 to take my family to the movies for an hour and a half. Hell I even pay $5.50 for a shitty coffee with whip cream and sugar sometimes.
As someone that has to budget, $50 a month is a little steep for me. I don't buy $5.00 coffees, or spend that much on TV or cell phone, either. The kids gotta eat.
That being said, I would gladly pay up to about $25.00 a month and I wouldn't be against paying for expansions if they are reasonably priced and not tooooo frequent (not that I don't want tons of expansions...I just...budget). I am definitely glad it won't be cash shop based. I've seen people pay 2 or 3 times a normal sub price every month just so they can have all the cool stuff. I'd rather earn that and know that the people running around flaunting those items earned it as well.
It think it's gonna be fine though. Sounds like Brad & Co. are on the right track.
*Edit - And yes, a physical box would be lovely. I'll pay for that too. :)
Aradune said:
I think the FAQ answer covers these quesitons -- if not, let me know.
What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?
We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.
So then, whichever model you choose, will I have to spend money up front, before I experience the game for myself?
No, absolutely not. The first 5-10 levels of the game (details TBD) will be absolutely free, without handicaps. Nor will there be a physical box you have to buy (although we are not ruling out the option of purchasing a special, premium box for those who like to have something tangible to go along with their virtual world). We feel strongly that you should have the opportunity to play and experience Pantheon for a time and then decide if the game is right for you before having to pull out your wallet.
I am going to have to caution against free to try aspect.
Having a free trial aspect to Pantheon serve no purpose and will cause problems with the game and community. Not to mention stress the servers and hurt those who are paying. Allowing free trials will actually hurt the community as riff-raff comes and goes and all the flip-flopping & congestion that will be going on. It promotes goons.
I see nothing wrong with $39 sale w/2 months free. This will eliminate goons, hackers and a lot of riff-raff. It will make for a stronger community and harbor a community willing to help newbies, because they made the jump and leap of faith. Having a box sales will make cheaters and hackers think twice if they know they will loose their account AND THEN have to pay $39 to buy back in.
Now, what I think Visionary Realms should do, is every so often have a "Friends & Family" promotion. Where everyone is given a pass to hand out. This will allow for the game to expand and second & third generations to join servers as they mature. It will foster a greater community and allow those sitting on the fence an opportunity to have a taste of Pantheon. Within a controlled environment.
The business model and approach I would for take Pantheon, would be $39 for Pantheon (with 2 months free) and $18 ~$21 per month subscription (With twice a year offering free friends & family passes to hand out) and expansion packs for $49.
I am whole heatedly against open FREE TRIALS because it offers nothing to the consumer and promotes destruction of the community. If an adult is on the fence on whether or not to buy the game, then let him sit. This game will get the better of them. And given the amount of crackheads in EQ, these people will not sit on the fence looking in for long. They will join Pantheon and become one of the Fallen.
Don't put all this effort into making a game and allow free goons to ruin it for all others. It is not fair to us.
From my limited diversity of online gaming, I have to agree with Heiroman on this issue. My most recent experience, Project:Gorgon opened up their servers for a free to try period while they were running a kickstarter. The overhwelming amount of immature children, and folks attempting to troll the community really got to be too much. It took a great community with pleasant conversation and really turned it toxic; fast. It's the same reason I don't join in on a lot of the more active gaming forums. If people want to grow up and get serious, buying a game for $40 isn't a lot to ask.
However, it appears that VR's decision is set in stone, so perhaps, they can offer a server that's strictly for trial? and if the customer decides to purchase the game their character can be moved to the real server community. Just a thought.
"Free to try" aspect will encourage gold sellers to abuse it.
I don't mind paying whatever price you set for the initial game itself, and then for both monthly subscription AND for expansions/modules. I do not work for free myself, and I don't expect you to give away products of your work for free.
"Friends and family" is ok only under one condition: if one of a "family" is found out to be a gold seller/spammer of any sort, the whole "family" set of accounts should get banned.
Free to try = free for some assholes to ruin it for others. Too many people these days in the MMO community get off on wanting to ruin other people's fun and immersion. Just look at any of the forums on other sites that just hate the game due to Brad being apart of it(no offense Brad). These are the kind of people we will be inviting to play with us. I could see a large amount of people that we see on the forums logging in just to screw with the real players. They won't care as they don't stand anything to lose and only personal entertainment to gain.
I have a feeling that the team will spend more resources on policing those people than it will ever be worth. If we don't police them, then we will most likely lose more customers than we will gain from a free trial. I trust the team to make the game and I trust their technical expertise, however I have to whole heartly disagree with them on this decision as I have seen it first hand for several free to play MMOs. In all honesty seeing this almost makes me wish my wife and I didn't spend over $1000 on the game.
I would go out on a limb and say that the day of free trials is even needed for most games. The age of the internet and game streamers is far too large now. There is no reason to let a person try an MMO, they can see from videos and streams if they want to see how the game will play and if they want to give it a shot.
A few solutions that I personally would promote if we had to have one:
1. A decently long open beta. This will give players long enough to try out to see if they want to buy the game. You can still limit it to level 10, however you have to be careful with that. As people get bored they tend find annoying things to do to others.
2. Build a non online client to try a few levels. My wife and I aren't looking for another clone of the commuities from other games. Introducing them into our starting areas with the rest of us who have paid to enjoy the content isn't what we are looking for.
3. The friends and family pass idea was a great one as well. Definitely would help get the word out.
4. Anything else besides allowing them to join us...
Lastly almost all gamers are connected to each other in one way or another through other games and contacts. The word will spread if the game sucks or it's awesome. If their friend tells them it's a great game and worth the try, well then they will most likely give it a shot. If people don't believe their friends when they tell them the game is worth playing... then they will never be sold.
Obviously this is strictly my personal opinion, a very strong one, however this is a very important topic to be discussed.