Krixus said:This screams slippery slope to me. We don't want to create hubs that people won't venture far from, or have an advantage in leveling over those who adventure far from one of these safe areas. Engendering a since of community is great, but I really hope if this is a thing, that it is implemented in a manner that prevents or avoids players yoyo-ing between killing a mob and running back to the safe area because it is more efficient. That's not going to promote good gameplay, imo.
Anyone remember the secret room in Kurn's Tower, Everquest?
It was fake wall that led to a small room your group could sit in indefinately without worrying about trains,spawns, or roamers.
I like interesting little addons to places like this.
Whether there's campfires or no, I'd totally go for some rooms/areas set aside every now and again groups are clearly meant to discover and sit around at=). You could even have small rooms which regen the areas mana faster or some such.
I don't think there should be completely safe spots in dangerous areas (particularly dungeons). Even "unused" rooms far away from the main rooms should have patrols. These can be weak, single monsters which come in long intervals, but you should never assume that you're safe. So people could use these rooms to rest, but would still need to be careful.
Perhaps there could be perks like "everyone gains a hiding skill" in such rooms (in roleplay terms, everyone's hiding behind/in boxes, throwing blankets over themselves, standing behind rocks, basically "disappearing" from the views of the dungeon dwellers)? Or the group leader gets such an ability ("hide group").
The first thing that popped in my mind when I read this was the Guild Lobby area in EQ. If you got out of EQ before this became a thing it basically boils down to a zone connected to PoK that turned off the countdown for buffs (aka all buffs stayed at the full duration till you left the zone). So people would collect in front of the giant throne in the Guild Lobby and basically go afk and when you came back hours later you would have most all the important buffs from the different classes due to people mass buffing in this one spot. The way this all played out felt very artificial because it wasn’t about mingling with your fellow gamer but more like a parking lot you stored your character overnight and in the morning you where buffed up and ready to leave to your soloing or groups.
It became to the point that I always had all the good buffs from all the main buffing classes. I would hate to see Pantheon reduce the need for me being a shaman or a cleric because everyone has easy access to one of the things that makes me valuable, my buffs.
I would rather let the player’s form bonds then create a special location and hope people use it the way you imagine.
I really like the concept of particular camp fire hubs around the world. What I envision is this goes in stages depending on how many separate people show up. First stage is someone supplies fuel, someone else must start the fire etc... Maybe this then allows them to "bind" at this location. The fire will last "X" amount of time Unless refueled by someone else. As the fire burns, there is a chance a vendor drops by and joins, these could vary in what the sell / offer. Perhaps an NPC bard could be triggered to show up and do some musical notes for everyone. Maybe even in rarer circumstances, a wagon vendor shows up to offer some travel for a fee... This would be a really nice benefit to travel greater distances but not something you can rely on due to it being a rare chance. Maybe a banker shows up on occasion... etc.
This will really create a social atmosphere and I can picture at night, you could see the fires from a good distance, and most everyone will probably go check it out, hence being very social. Hell if an NPC bard showed up, I might even hang for a bit and tell some tales to go along with it :)
Pyye said:I really like the concept of particular camp fire hubs around the world. What I envision is this goes in stages depending on how many separate people show up. First stage is someone supplies fuel, someone else must start the fire etc... Maybe this then allows them to "bind" at this location. The fire will last "X" amount of time Unless refueled by someone else. As the fire burns, there is a chance a vendor drops by and joins, these could vary in what the sell / offer. Perhaps an NPC bard could be triggered to show up and do some musical notes for everyone. Maybe even in rarer circumstances, a wagon vendor shows up to offer some travel for a fee... This would be a really nice benefit to travel greater distances but not something you can rely on due to it being a rare chance. Maybe a banker shows up on occasion... etc.
This will really create a social atmosphere and I can picture at night, you could see the fires from a good distance, and most everyone will probably go check it out, hence being very social. Hell if an NPC bard showed up, I might even hang for a bit and tell some tales to go along with it :)
I like this type of emergent gameplay, where the system allows players to get together and decide where they think a good resting/socializing place should be. I would think the more people present, the better the benefits. Also, even if occasional mobs patrolled, people could fend them off. I would like to see these areas attract more mobs and players would have to defend it to keep the benefits.
I do like this idea, reminds me in a sense of how SWG did it, campfire and/or cantina's where people would gather to regroup.
I don't see why this concept wouldn't work in PRF either.
It would be interesting to see multiple campfires / tents and possibly trader huts pop up somewhere, then slowly fade away as people left for the evening or moved on to other areas.
I like the idea of a temporary camp fire that most if not all classes can build. While sitting near it, you regen hp/mana faster, but perhaps it also attracts mobs from a further distance (think Weathertop in LotR). Perhaps there is also an option to sleep next to the campfire. You regen hp/mana even faster, but your vision is black. If you are struck by an enemy while sleeping, it awakes you, but is always a critical hit. This would strategically encourage to group members to rotate who will stay awake and keep an eye out for enemies.
I do also support the idea that each class could have something unique to offer during downtime. Bards could sing a special song, Clerics can dress wounds, etc. Something to think about anyway. I think downtime is a good thing and I know VR feels the same way. This all sounds like a cool way to keep downtime, but also make it a little more interesting.
Pyye said:I really like the concept of particular camp fire hubs around the world. What I envision is this goes in stages depending on how many separate people show up. First stage is someone supplies fuel, someone else must start the fire etc... Maybe this then allows them to "bind" at this location. The fire will last "X" amount of time Unless refueled by someone else. As the fire burns, there is a chance a vendor drops by and joins, these could vary in what the sell / offer. Perhaps an NPC bard could be triggered to show up and do some musical notes for everyone. Maybe even in rarer circumstances, a wagon vendor shows up to offer some travel for a fee... This would be a really nice benefit to travel greater distances but not something you can rely on due to it being a rare chance. Maybe a banker shows up on occasion... etc.
This will really create a social atmosphere and I can picture at night, you could see the fires from a good distance, and most everyone will probably go check it out, hence being very social. Hell if an NPC bard showed up, I might even hang for a bit and tell some tales to go along with it :)
This makes me think of the good part of Pokemon Go
I really like the idea. I think it could work but will be difficult to program because you gotta make the AI work in a way that makes sense for each individual area (is a banker gonna come join you in the basement of a raid dungeon?). Also it would of course need its own balancing as some people have mentioned the campfire's effects on soloer effectiveness especially.
Lots of good ideas being thrown around in here. I'd love to see some implemented. I like ad-hoc social hubs. I like class-specific benefits. I like population-scaled benefits. I like dynamic NPC reactions; merchants might choose to stop by a big enough encampment as might raiders. I could see something like this giving rise to emergent experiences like the EC tunnel. Only better and more mobile.
I think (based on the posts I read in these forums) this fanbase all misses that feeling of community that Everquest had. You had to engage others for help, or to help them when you saw them struggling. You had to ask questions and seek out things it was all ! and ? and highlighted paths and quick travel and auto travel and such. Not saying anything bad about games or updates that offered those things. I am just saying in 1999 when you handed us a Game and said "You're in our world now" we all entered and had to learn (a lot of times the hard way) how the world worked, what the environment was like, we needed to rely on others who had already done it what we should and could do. So back to this topic: Give us the tools (camping, campfires, etc.) and this community will use them. Make it dark at night and as adventurer's we are out exploring and see a fire in the woods, what are we going to do? Investigate it. We are going to sneak up and see oh hey it's a group of people resting. Let the conversation ensue. Maybe there is 4 of them and 4 of us and we form a group (I did 8 because I remember reading that's a target group size for now) and go lay waste to an orc camp. Let the pillaging begin! And tunnels, I'm can't speak for everyone but I think tunnels are awesome. Have a big mountain and you see a light at its base, investigate. What do you find? Another way around the mountain or in this case under it. What do you find inside? a small camp of merchants that are selling needed wears (food, drink, whetstones, repair kits, heath and mana potions, arrows and shuriken and supplies for crafting a camp or cooking) maybe one of these folks is a quest giver that rewards Rogues with a teleporting backstab skill or trains a wizard how to port to this camp). What will happen? A new East Commanlands Tunnel spot for buying and selling loot from the dungeon on the other side of the mountain? IMHO I think small helpful tools that we can craft and off the beaten path spots with no aggro mobs will lead to the things we are looking for in community. My groups there to get supplies to attack the dungeon your group just left and is selling drops, another group is just resting after almost losing their Cleric in the zone to some angry Kobolds and yet another group is there supporting their Ranger who needs to get an arrow crafting recipe from one of the merchants. Sorry for the long post I've had 3 cups of coffee but I love the idea of camping tradeskill and I love the idea of off the beaten path gathering spots. Good post.
I kinda like the idea of a rest area where you may benefit from someone else's bard song or group heal. I remember my first toon in eq was a warrior. He would have to sit for an insane amount of time to recover his health after a solo fight with an even con. I think if the rest area is not feasable then they should adjust the amount of points recoverd in resting to something a little more reasonable than eq had at start.
My warrior died 3 different times from long lasting poison that would outpace the healing process. Even one time with a cleric resting beside me and would not cast a heal or cure poison on me. He said his mana was reserved for his group. I was really disheartened by his attitude. It was then I made my druid and my love for the druid class never stopped. I spent a lot of time and mana healing and cureing and buffing solo players I ran into from then on.
If firewood was heavy enough that you could only carry a limited amount of it without being overburdened that could help balance out having campfires all the time.
This feature has been in some other games I've played and it is pretty cool.
I think it should be only Rangers that can set up camps but anyone could stoke the fire to keep them goin longer. This way one group could leave the camp and another group could still approach and use the camp after as long as the fire is still lit even if they didnt have a ranger to start it.
If the nights are really dark just being able to drop a large light source like that could be a strategic advantage.
Kiz~
Aradune said:I generally like your idea. This seems related to a post I just made about how proactive we should be in helping people find groups, find friends, sell and buy items, etc. How much help should we give the player? And, then, how much should we leave to the players to develop organically? Obviously there are extremes, and we have always leaned towards an open world feeling, players doing what they will, and organic and emergent behavior welcomed. The other extreme, where the game matches you up (dungeon finders and such) and does all this artificial stuff doesn't usually build community and help things anyway, so I'm not talking about that, don't worry.
But I am talking about providing things here and there to help and be proactive. The post above, where there are rest areas that not only help the group, but anyone who comes by... that could encourage community building and have a positive effect. So what are your thoughts? Should we do little things like this to help foster community, grouping, cooperation, free trade? If so, where should we draw the line before it starts interfering with the open world we want?
Thanks in advance for your ideas and thoughts.
-Brad
I've heard you mention rest areas (a place to log in and out safely) in dungeons. I think an idea like this would fit in well, especially if there is a transition from group content to raid content in that area.
I like the campfire idea- as being player created. So a group would go into a dungeon and if they found a good grind/camp/pull spot, they would set a campfire and get that shared benefit for themselves.
I can see this making a certain dungeon attractive to others since it would be a destination point for new adventurers coming in. A empty dungeon would be a dangerous one, but if you went in and someone said Capfire at level 2! or something- then that dungeon would still be dangerous but with a campfire you would know there was a place you could drag corpses to,....hmm.... or maybe even train to... or be a hub form which to head out from.
Campfire concept sounds interesting, but wouldn't it be easier to do and control to just make villages, farmhouse and inns scattered about that are safe areas.
using EQ1 as an example, East and West commons, North Ro, oasis, etc all had "inns" and "vendor huts" which were natural scenery gathering places and landmarks. Now in EQ1, they were not generally safe areas since mobs could attack through walls (I assume we have overcome this code deficiency over the years). The farmshouses in the Karanas, small tent camps and dwarven guard houses in Butcherblock, etc. EQ1 was scattered with small habitat areas that could serve the purpose, and give people a reason to visit them.
Iksar said:Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't see how this would work for groups. Off the top of my head I can't think of any camps in EQ that multiple groups would occupy, in fact other groups near your group is a bad thing as they are competition for spawns.
If it something small like just a campfire, it would probably only be intended for a single group anyway. If it is something bigger (for example, a mini outpost that has a merchant and maybe a few tents for longer resting periods), I imagine it being something that is most commonly set up at the entrance to a zone and services people within a wide area. Not necessarily just right next to you. It's still more convenient than having to run all the way back to town.
Yeah, in my head the coolest version of this idea is dynamically and procedurally scalable. Disclaimer: It's still cool even if it’s not this elaborate.
A "rest area" or campsite would be established by players wherever the terrain allows. The campsite would provide beneficial effects to everyone who used it. A campsite would grow more elaborate and useful as more people actively "used" it, and shrink as they stopped. Campsites would include procedurally-placed "infrastructure" that would provide players with functionality otherwise unavailable to them in the field.
As example of infrastructure: A campsite being used by a single group would be a small and simple affair; maybe a couple bedrolls, a campfire, and a cooking-tool placeable like a spit. Adding more "campers" might result in simple tents, a cooking tripod, and a log to sit on.
At some point it gets big enough to attract some NPC vendors. Bonus points if they spawn at the nearest city and convoy over (with a dynamically generated quest to protect them).
This means that both small groups and large groups could use the same campsite system
Small groups would still be incentivized to "return to civilization" to sell, tradeskill, and socialize, but they might not have to travel all the way back to a city for some things if there's a large enough campsite nearby.
Designers could even use the system to anticipate social hotspots by turning certain campsites into permanent settlements during beta.
This system is a bit complex, but it facilitate simple tools that players could use to create their own social hubs instead of designers creating them.
@Iksar
The idea would be strategic spots throughout Terminus where this could take place... The more people that drop by (does not have to be a full group) I was thinking the more benefits could come out. Perhaps certain buffs can take place for a duration or fun events etc... It is just a way to create something social with benefits of it taking place.
I would imagine it would not be right in the heart of where NPC mobs are spawning, rather on the way or in between where many roads meet.