Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Let's talk Death Penalty

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    • 120 posts
    August 31, 2015 3:03 PM PDT
    Keeping your gear, inventory when you die, imo, trivializes the death penalty idea and creates a atmosphere where dieing becomes a valid strategy. 1 I used alot in VG and even for somethings in EQ.
    This post was edited by Castwell at September 1, 2015 2:28 PM PDT
    • 384 posts
    August 31, 2015 3:16 PM PDT
    Castwell said:
    Keeping your gear, inventory when you die, imo, trivializes the death penalty idea and creates a atmosphere where dieing becomes a valid strategy. 1 I used alot in VG and even for somethings in EQ.

    Yup. That's the quick way back to town.
    • 120 posts
    August 31, 2015 3:21 PM PDT
    Malsirian said:
    Castwell said:
    Keeping your gear, inventory when you die, imo, trivializes the death penalty idea and creates a atmosphere where dieing becomes a valid strategy. 1 I used alot in VG and even for somethings in EQ.

    Yup. That's the quick way back to town.

    Ohh,, heh, forgot about that one. " I need to buy spells, rez me when I'm done..."
    • 1778 posts
    August 31, 2015 3:21 PM PDT
    XI had strats involving sacrificial pulls which were just about mandatory for Dynamis. Always found it odd though.
    • 9115 posts
    August 31, 2015 3:57 PM PDT

    Nice replies everyone, keep them coming, I like seeing the variations in your thoughts :) 

    • 1434 posts
    August 31, 2015 4:33 PM PDT

    This topic must not be taken lightly. I keep hearing here and on other forums that people "just don't have the time" to play an MMO like EQ again unless X feature is removed or mitigated. The problem with that is, it was many of those harder, more time consuming mechanics that made the game as amazing as it was. It was those things that cause players to interact together differently than modern games, and come together as a community. Those harsher aspects of the game were what created the community and gave people the incentive to work together rather than against each other.

     

    That said, I still like the idea of losing your experience, and needing to retrieve your corpse. However, I think your equipped items should remain with you after death. This will be especially important if you die in an area where specific items are necessary to both survive climates and fight back to your corpse.

     

    I don't think there should be any corpse rot. After a given time, a player should be able to summon their body at a grave yard, but it shouldn't be available immediately, no matter what the penalty. If it were up to me, I'd say at least a day should pass before you can summon the rest of your inventory to a graveyard or shrine, and at such a time everything that was on your corpse should be broken and in need of repair.

     

    To balance these types of mechanics, you could allow a particular class to summon corpse at a lower level, or perhaps allow other classes through abilities like stealth or feign death to drag a corpse to a safe location. This keeps the interdependence intact.

     

    I believe its imperative that players have adversity like the corpse run to overcome if we are to ever see the type of player environment in Pantheon, that we saw in EQ.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at September 2, 2015 3:36 PM PDT
    • 51 posts
    August 31, 2015 4:55 PM PDT

    Being fearful of death should be one of the foundational principles in pantheon. Running for your life is not only exciting but instills a sense of balance in the game world for when you overstep your means or get too cocky you SHOULD pay dearly for it. Exp deaths should be implemented to within reason as well as bind point corpse runs. Additionally, if you do not get your corpse within a time frame it rots. Call me callous but I see no other way!


    This post was edited by Valith at September 2, 2015 3:32 AM PDT
    • 17 posts
    August 31, 2015 5:13 PM PDT

    I do like EQ's death penalty as well.  I would like to see death penalties increase as you level.  Earlier on the penalty can be less stiff, but as you progress death will be more harmful (typically leading to players putting forth the effort to recruit a player to rez them if they are unable to cast rez themselves.  Cap it at 15-20% of a level per death and losing levels if your xp drops too low.

     

    I would also like to see corpse runs.  They suck, but this is the worst part of the death penalty- depending on where you die, it could require recruiting help from other players.  Personally, I hate repair costs it is a simple task that can sometimes be very time consuming if you overlook it; it just really is not needed unless the plans are to have gear that disappears when its durability is gone.  The money sink that comes from death should really be a part of the overall effect it has on the player economy.  Having players with resurrection spells, corpse locate and summon abilities adds to these characters benefits (similar to players wanting certain buffs).  Players spend money they earn to pay for someone with these abilities.  Players who do these tasks are in effect not able to farm money from traditional means of killing/looting but rather they are earning money from players.  This does not necessarily remove money from the game, but it does prevent the possibility of "creating" more for a period of time. 

     

    Of course there is always the option to let your corpse and gear rot.  Players would also have the choice to not spend their money and take the xp loss.  Giving them the choice to weigh the advantages and disadvantages  (Potentially long down time to find a rez and the money value they can lose over just getting back into the action).  

     

    I feel corpse rotting should be in the game, however, a corpse should only rot while a player is online(so in the rare case that your internet goes out and you go on vacation for 2 weeks you would not find that you lost everything because you died.  The only major difference from EQ that I would like to see is that the corpse resurrection timer only expires when the corpse decays.  This way you can still continue to group etc, and drag your corpse to a safe area where you would be more likely to find someone to rez you.  It is also nice to know there is not a huge rush to find someone to rez you immediately, if you have another means to get to your corpse.

     


    This post was edited by Phantomghost at September 2, 2015 4:07 AM PDT
    • 107 posts
    August 31, 2015 6:10 PM PDT
    Malsirian said:
    Castwell said:
    Keeping your gear, inventory when you die, imo, trivializes the death penalty idea and creates a atmosphere where dieing becomes a valid strategy. 1 I used alot in VG and even for somethings in EQ.

    Yup. That's the quick way back to town.

    Agree with both of these gentlemen. But, I do hope either Necro or DK can summon corpse.

    • 2138 posts
    August 31, 2015 6:46 PM PDT

    I like the forced learning curve that comes from a corpse run. I like the reinforcement of this Curve with Exp loss. Both of these negative attributes, the time sink in the run and the loss of exp, contributes exponentially to the players skill development in game making them better in groups. Initially this works out as over cautious, or perhaps turning down groups because certain classes are not present. Some people never get beyond this, and I have seen them, even at the top end. But those that do,  end up being better overall players and choice in their class. My first all-mage group in a hard area, was sublime.

    My impression is that one element of this discussion is the use of time. Naked corpse runs, that succeed- are remembered forever and the time spent, relished. Wiping in Fear and having two guilds also wipe trying to get you out, is never forgotten and the time wasted, regretted.

    Losing a level (through lack of personal foresight, i.e. not getting at least a 3 death buffer before going into the level-dependent area) is un-timely and defeating. I was going on a raid but now I'm going home.

     

    If I recall I think you had a number of real time days with which you could try to get your corpse before everything poofed. I heard that enlisting a GM's help was a possibility, but it was generally considered taboo to bother a GM with a corpse retrieval. Certain situations, however warranted GM intervention; for instance the player upon whom Lev was cast, and then nudged over the edge of The Hole. Bind affinity was cast on the player to be followed with Cancel magic- removing the Lev. Yes, this exp-loop required GM intervention. 

    So how do you remove the GM or guide from this player need so they can play secretly and do fun stuff?    The debt Idea works as that is also what would be done to regain the exp loss. You would not lose the level, but you would have to expend the same effort as if getting the exp back to pay the debt. The sacrifice idea to get the corpse- I don't know. But I do like looting my corpse, and I do like the anxiety of having to wait for "rez effects" for it was there, in an accidental emergency that I learned about alchohol and its effects on mana and how alchohol tolerance as a skill removed that panic.

     

     

     

    • 1281 posts
    August 31, 2015 8:26 PM PDT

    Death:

    >You gain XP debt, you do not lose XP or levels.
    >You drop all items on corpse. Items that are "no-drop" or "soul-bound" respawn with your character (meta-gaming anyone?). Everyone can see your corpse.
    >You respawn at the closest graveyard
    >If you do not recover your corpse within 3 hours, the corpse pops to the nearest graveyard but with no ability to remove XP debt.
    >Players have option to pay a gravemaster a certain amount of coin based on level to immediately summon corpse back with no ability to remove XP debt.

     

    Recovery:

    >Amount of XP debt removed is based on the length of time it takes to recover your corpse.
    >If you recover (whether run back or with spells) within 0 minutes 5 minutes you remove 90% of your experience debt.
    >If you recover (whether run back or with spells) between 6 minutes and 10 minutes you remove 75% of your experience debt.
    >If you recover (whether run back or with spells) between 11 minutes and 60 minutes you remove 50% of your experience debt.
    >If you recover (whether run back or with spells) between 61 minutes and 180 minutes you remove 25% of your experience debt.

     

    Some classes can resurrect you and that will port you back to your corpse.  Higher level resurrection spells can ignore the time since death to allow higher debt recovery. Say, a high level Cleric can resurrect at 11 minutes but you still remove 75% debt rather than 50%

     

    This method is more universal between all level ranges and would help partially eliminate the high level issue where dieing doesn't mean a lot because of 90% res (like EQ). If you wait too long it won't matter what their rez % is. It also takes the clerics res ability out of the equation and puts the power to recover back in your own hands.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at August 31, 2015 11:39 PM PDT
    • 85 posts
    August 31, 2015 8:46 PM PDT

    Death  should be feared just like in real life YOLO anyone?  So Death in any MMO should have  the "ouch effect". Corpse runs are fine by all means.(Thats what makes it fun and makes you think strat wise and time wise) Xp loss upon death will always be a part of an MMO either way. Rez effects? Debuffs upon dying? A lot can pick a choose what would be the ideal "Death Penalty" for an MMO. My ideal "death penalty" is corpse run , xp loss , gear repair , (maybe unbinded gear left on tomb perhaps?) 

    • 63 posts
    August 31, 2015 10:17 PM PDT

    Regardless of what the death penalty ends up being, I like the idea of certain classes having useful spells and abilities that can assist a player who has died (such as in EQ where clerics had resurrection and necros had summon corpse, etc). I think it helps build community when there are services and commodities that players can provide based on their class.

     

    That being said, if there's little penalty for death, those services wouldn't be in very high demand. I personally think EQ handled death pretty well, but understand if Pantheon goes a little easier on it.

    • 781 posts
    August 31, 2015 11:27 PM PDT

    ./Agree  :)  All of you guys have made really good points, i have to agree with you all..lol

    • 378 posts
    September 1, 2015 12:50 AM PDT

    I think everyone knows my stance on Corpse runs, outdated nothing but time sink.

     

    I think this might have come from Runescape but please correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to see a mix of XP loss and a item loss system.

     

    Item loss system is were you have to number / prioritize your gear in your Char screen, you might get to make 2 items high, 2 medium and 2 low lets say, if you die once there is a ( throwing numbers out there ) 15% chance of losing one of your low priority items plus XP loss, if you die a 2nd time in a set amount of time you have a 30% chance of losing one of your medium items plus XP loss and so on and so on.

    You can change the numbers to suit any game and play around with what works and what doesn't, might even give the first death just XP loss then the item loss kicks in, you set the death Debuff to reset after (X) amount of time.

    Just an idea ( would need more detail / thought to not be exploited etc )


    This post was edited by Zandil at September 1, 2015 2:40 AM PDT
    • 338 posts
    September 1, 2015 4:44 AM PDT
    Zandil said:

    I think everyone knows my stance on Corpse runs, outdated nothing but time sink.

     

    I think this might have come from Runescape but please correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to see a mix of XP loss and a item loss system.

     

    Item loss system is were you have to number / prioritize your gear in your Char screen, you might get to make 2 items high, 2 medium and 2 low lets say, if you die once there is a ( throwing numbers out there ) 15% chance of losing one of your low priority items plus XP loss, if you die a 2nd time in a set amount of time you have a 30% chance of losing one of your medium items plus XP loss and so on and so on.

    You can change the numbers to suit any game and play around with what works and what doesn't, might even give the first death just XP loss then the item loss kicks in, you set the death Debuff to reset after (X) amount of time.

    Just an idea ( would need more detail / thought to not be exploited etc )

     

    I would really not like this...

     

    Kiz~

     

    • 318 posts
    September 1, 2015 5:33 AM PDT

    In reference specifically to the debate of Exp Loss vs Exp Debt. The two systems are basically the same up until you reach max level. At max level, the real differences become apparent.

     

     

    Exp Debt

    Using Vanguard as an example, at max level with the Exp Debt system, it really didn't matter any more if you died. Sure you got "exp debt", but that capped out at -100% or something like that. After reaching the cap, it no longer mattered how often you died. The exp penalty was over. In Vanguard there was also an armor damage / repair system, but I'm talking strictly about Exp Debt.

     

    I can't remember exactly how many years it was before they increased the level cap to 55 in Vanguard. But all the time up until then, the Exp Debt penalty was basically trivial at max level. Sure there were some people who did not like to see the red on their exp bars, so they worked off their debt, but that was just personal preference. On the other hand there were people who died hundreds and hundreds of times, just because they could. 

     

     

    Exp Loss

    With the Exp Loss (and level loss) system, death can still be meaningful at max level. You don't have to put a ton of time into Exp at max level, but you always have to keep enough of a cushion so that you don't lose your level when encounters go bad.

     


    This post was edited by Wellspring at September 2, 2015 4:20 AM PDT
    • 366 posts
    September 1, 2015 6:15 AM PDT

     

    I am open minded about the death penalty but I do want to remark that by promoting a game that harkens back to EQ people are going to expect a corpse run.

     

     

    • 9115 posts
    September 1, 2015 7:05 AM PDT
    Zarriya said:

     

    I am open minded about the death penalty but I do want to remark that by promoting a game that harkens back to EQ people are going to expect a corpse run.

     

     

    This is where we are trying to be careful, as we are not making an EQ game, Pantheon is a completely new game, while still utilising some mechanics, features and systems that we thought worked well in both EQ, VG and other games, but we also are adding new systems, features and mechanics to make Pantheon stand out on its own.


    Pantheon is not a sequel to EQ or VG, it is a spiritual successor in a "sense" due to Brad being the creator of those two games and now working on Pantheon, but more importantly it is its own new standalone IP. I hope everyone understands that.

    • 83 posts
    September 1, 2015 7:17 AM PDT

    I think losing what amounts to ~1 hour of xp unrezzed would make sense, imo.

    Gear would stay on corpse, but after 1-2 hours your corpse would appear at a safe spot in the zone where you died, but now you can only get 50-70% of the lost xp back on rez.

    To mitigate this a little, xp rezzes should not be limited to 1 or 2 classes, nor should 1 class have better rezzes than others, any rez performed before the corpse is moved to the safe spot should return between 85-95% of the loss.

    Reason for not having 100% rez would be to make it sting some even with a rezzer present if you do silly things :)

  • September 1, 2015 7:36 AM PDT
    Kilsin said:
    Zarriya said:

     

    I am open minded about the death penalty but I do want to remark that by promoting a game that harkens back to EQ people are going to expect a corpse run.

     

     

    This is where we are trying to be careful, as we are not making an EQ game, Pantheon is a completely new game, while still utilising some mechanics, features and systems that we thought worked well in both EQ, VG and other games, but we also are adding new systems, features and mechanics to make Pantheon stand out on its own.


    Pantheon is not a sequel to EQ or VG, it is a spiritual successor in a "sense" due to Brad being the creator of those two games and now working on Pantheon, but more importantly it is its own new standalone IP. I hope everyone understands that.

     

    That's all well and good but when talking about specific game play, such as death and all that it encompasses, the comparison is valid and going to be there no matter what.  It's a valid comparison because either death is easier than EQ/harder than WoW, has corpse runs/doesn't have corpse runs, exp loss/exp debt, decay/no decay, etc...  Spiritual successor means, to me, if I liked EQ or VG then I am definitely going to like Pantheon.  Death is an important game play aspect for players regardless of where they stand on the intricacies.

     

    We will believe death is going to be very like the games we've already played, at least until the team tells us they have a totally new death system, at which time, we will be able to reasonably discuss our views on the new system.  :)

    • 17 posts
    September 1, 2015 7:40 AM PDT

    If you lose experience and have no corpse run, then it isn't as challenging as it needs to be. Corpse runs promote social interactions, loss of experience not so much.

    If your goal is to harken back to the times where games were more about interactions and players helping each other out. Corpse runs should be an integral part of the design for death penalties.

    • 318 posts
    September 1, 2015 7:43 AM PDT
    Khayos said:

    If you lose experience and have no corpse run, then it isn't as challenging as it needs to be. Corpse runs promote social interactions, loss of experience not so much.

    If your goal is to harken back to the times where games were more about interactions and players helping each other out. Corpse runs should be an integral part of the design for death penalties.

    I agree with what you said about corpse runs and social interaction. It is important to note that loss of exp can also promote social interaction depending on the rez mechanics.


    This post was edited by Wellspring at September 1, 2015 5:19 PM PDT
    • 179 posts
    September 1, 2015 8:04 AM PDT

    Death penalty just needs to hurt you in some way with the main hurt coming in the form of time. I'll be onboard with the team as long as they make the death penalty meaningful. Anyway they decide I will be ok with as long as I don't have to worry about losing my gear permanently.

    I don't like games that I have no fear of death. Fearing death helps create better players, better team players, and community IMHO.

    • 208 posts
    September 1, 2015 8:22 AM PDT

    To me this game should have a Death penalty/cost as it does to leveling.  The first 10ish levels are fairly quick/easy to replace lost xp and you reappear with your items on you but you have damage to those items that you have to PAY someone/diety/tradeskiller/whoever to make the items good as new.  If enough damage is done to those weapons/items they go *poof*..

     

    Once you reach level 10 or so the player respawns with NOTHING on them, no money no gear, just a birthday suit and a tunic/nightgown.  They will either have to sacrifice an item/level in addition to the lost xp at a Temple to regain their corpse with items.  The higher the level the player is the higher the level loss/sacrifice is to summon I am thinking like a level 30 player who died would have to sacrifice 3 or 4 levels in addition to the xp loss from death to summon their corpse.  Another class could summon corpses but it should not be "give me the appropriate level item to summon your corpse and I will"  It should require the summoning class to sacrifice something as well so kind of rare or valuable item, some xp or the like. 

     

    Another class should be able to rez/reborn via a spell that would cost a SIGNIFICANT amount of mana to cast , like 75%.  The farther in a dungeon a group is the longer it would take to rez/regrioup because of the mana demands on casting rezes/rebirths/whateveritiscalled.  If a player dies that should be a gibbs slap to the back of the players head saying don't be stupid.  All deaths should have equipment damage done to them and require repairs to be maintained. 

     

    As a last resort there should be a graveyard type system in the game but it will only take affect after a corpse has laid in the same spot for 3 days(72 hours of Real life time).  The graveyard system would require a player to do a quest the first time to access it and each subsequent visit the cost to access the graveyard would be the same as the Temple/Diety sacrifice. 

     

    Another aspect of death should be the effects of dieing.  I don't want a quick 3 to 5 minutes of rez/rebirth effects like in EQ.  I want those effects to go up in duration as the player goes up in level.  A level 10 player should have rez effects for 2 minutes.. a level 20 player should have rez effects for 8 minutes.. a level 30 player should have rez effects for 15 minutes.. just to give you an idea of what I am talking about.  

     

    What are rez/rebirth effects?  These are consequences of dieing and being reborn/resusicitated back at a bind point or temple.  They are limitations to health and mana regeneration, they are limitations to basic statistics like 85% of primary statistic such as Strength or Intellegince that decreases by 5% per minute or the like.  It also affects you like being drunk did in EQ 1, you weave and stumble and fall over very easily for the first 2 minutes of rebirth.  It affects your speech as if you are drunk, slurring words and making it so that NPCs as well as PCs do not understand what you are saying.  It takes time to recover from being knocked out or dazed in this world, should death effects be any easier in an imaginary world? and don't throw out the statement " it is a magical world"  there are still physics and laws that apply to those worlds or else everyone would be able to turn themselves into any creature they wanted at any time and do whatever they wanted with no sense of consequence or justice.

     

    These are just some thoughts I have on death effects/penalties for Pantheon, I know I am going to catch some flak for these views because many will view them as being to harsh but many people want a challenging game and that would make the game challenging for everyone. It would put an emphasis on playing smart as well as knowing how to play a class.  These penalties would make it fairly important for players to socialize and interact with other players because of the reliance on those players for help when a person dies.  That is what really made EQ different from other MMOs was that death had a sting and people wanted to lessen taht sting as much as possible by knowing the right people.