Laura said:Kittik said:Angrykiz said:Still hoping level 1 takes long enough to make people want to group up and not have the first 10 levels be a solo thing then all of a sudden it's a group game.
Kiz~
What fun would grouping be when no one has any abilities with which to do anything? A healer archtype of no healer, a CC archtype of no CC abilities? A group of all level 1's would be just a bunch of kick, slash or fireballs.
Why do you want classes to start level 1 without their basic abilities? A level 1 cleric should start with Minor Healing spell and maybe a buff, same for the other archtypes. Each archtype should start with one or two essential abilities.
Exactly, thanks for this post !
Kiz~
Liav said:Zorkon said:The question of this thread is somewhat misleading. I belive what is being asked is "how much combat time should level one take?"
I look back on my EQ experiance and as a very patient person, and one with little desire to get to "end game" I seriously ran arround Felwith and Kethelen finding the other zones and the spires, speaking with every NPC in the place before ever even going out to fight. I may have went out and killed a few things, I fought if attacked, but it was all about exploring to me. I literally did this until my initial food supply was exausted. I don't know the usage rate of a stack of food and water but that could EASILY have been 8 hours.
The time it takes to reach level 2 is going to vary greatly based on play style. I don't agree it needs to be fast to retain customers. I belive if they're too impatient and need a "Ding" to level two then maybe they're simply going to be too impatient for Pantheon. VR is not making a game for everyone, to lure them in with a quick level then spread it out in the later levels just sounds to me like a dishonest case of "Bait and Switch" in the name of profits. And I myself hope VR doesn't do business like that, or we all may be disappointed.
Disagree completely. The title isn't misleading at all.
I would hope that things are balanced around the above average paced players, otherwise things will progress way too fast.
In other words, when I (and many others) load up Pantheon, I'll be slaughtering everything in sight to level as soon as possible. In EQ you could ding to level 2 in 10 minutes of slaughtering every white con mob in the vicinity of where you started. I think that's a pretty reasonable pace, if not a little slow.
I find it interesting that you say things vary based on playstyle, then seemingly say that some playstyles are invalid. I play games for progression and to be among the best, which means a quick pace. Some people in EQ did the same. This game isn't for me? Please.
Hopefully rushing ahead in Pantheon will be punished by having a not well rounded character when you reach end game.
"First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels". -> from the FAQ
I'm sure to play a lot also and I'm hoping that all the content is fun and relevant not just the max level.
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
I don't really look at that as a punishment as much as I look at it as a lack of progression. I don't care how long you take grinding to level 50 ... if someone gets there 2 weeks before you, it's quite likely that when you do finally get to level 50, the person who got there first will still be ahead of you progression wise if they have been playing at the same rate. The difference is that they can go back and do anything important they missed (while also being noticably stronger than required), but while also having had access to the max level content that you were never able to get your hands on until just now. We'll see what the Rites of Passage end up being but I highly doubt anybody will get "punished" for rushing to max level.
The verbiage of that quote makes it seem like if someone rushes to max level via exploiting a bug that they will just be ill-equipped to handle max-level content. I would hope that if someone exploits a bug that they would be rolled back. As far as someone rushing to max level the legitimate way, IE; grouping the entire way there, completing quests, farming drops while they level, they should be good to go. They have mentioned that everybody can play at their own pace and they have no desire to "punish" someone for a certain playstyle. I know I'll be rushing to max level myself and then hopefully revisiting all of the lower level areas when I reroll via progeny.
oneADseven said:I don't really look at that as a punishment as much as I look at it as a lack of progression. I don't care how long you take grinding to level 50 ... if someone gets there 2 weeks before you, it's quite likely that when you do finally get to level 50, the person who got there first will still be ahead of you progression wise if they have been playing at the same rate. The difference is that they can go back and do anything important they missed (while also being noticably stronger than required), but while also having had access to the max level content that you were never able to get your hands on until just now. We'll see what the Rites of Passage end up being but I highly doubt anybody will get "punished" for rushing to max level.
The verbiage of that quote makes it seem like if someone rushes to max level via exploiting a bug that they will just be ill-equipped to handle max-level content. I would hope that if someone exploits a bug that they would be rolled back. As far as someone rushing to max level the legitimate way, IE; grouping the entire way there, completing quests, farming drops while they level, they should be good to go. They have mentioned that everybody can play at their own pace and they have no desire to "punish" someone for a certain playstyle. I know I'll be rushing to max level myself and then hopefully revisiting all of the lower level areas when I reroll via progeny.
Maybe punished was the wrong word I was looking for.
I was just thinking that like in Vanguard I remember certain areas that had incredibly long quest lines that a lot of people would skip but the ones that did do them ended up with some rewards that were damn good and even at max level were still useful. If you rushed past areas like this you would have less resists and situational items.
I'm sure as hell not going to just grind away on some mob because its the best exp instead of exploring, adventuring, and just having fun.
Don't get me wrong I'll play a lot and get to max level pretty fast I'm sure... but I'll go with the flow and enjoy myself without min maxing every second of my time. After all we don't get a new game like this very often.
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:oneADseven said:I don't really look at that as a punishment as much as I look at it as a lack of progression. I don't care how long you take grinding to level 50 ... if someone gets there 2 weeks before you, it's quite likely that when you do finally get to level 50, the person who got there first will still be ahead of you progression wise if they have been playing at the same rate. The difference is that they can go back and do anything important they missed (while also being noticably stronger than required), but while also having had access to the max level content that you were never able to get your hands on until just now. We'll see what the Rites of Passage end up being but I highly doubt anybody will get "punished" for rushing to max level.
The verbiage of that quote makes it seem like if someone rushes to max level via exploiting a bug that they will just be ill-equipped to handle max-level content. I would hope that if someone exploits a bug that they would be rolled back. As far as someone rushing to max level the legitimate way, IE; grouping the entire way there, completing quests, farming drops while they level, they should be good to go. They have mentioned that everybody can play at their own pace and they have no desire to "punish" someone for a certain playstyle. I know I'll be rushing to max level myself and then hopefully revisiting all of the lower level areas when I reroll via progeny.
Maybe punished was the wrong word I was looking for.
I was just thinking that like in Vanguard I remember certain areas that had incredibly long quest lines that a lot of people would skip but the ones that did do them ended up with some rewards that were damn good and even at max level were still useful. If you rushed past areas like this you would have less resists and situational items.
I'm sure as hell not going to just grind away on some mob because its the best exp instead of exploring, adventuring, and just having fun.
Don't get me wrong I'll play a lot and get to max level pretty fast I'm sure... but I'll go with the flow and enjoy myself without min maxing every second of my time. After all we don't get a new game like this very often.
Kiz~
I always explore, adventure, and have fun when I power grind in a new game. I don't worry about min/maxing until a decent amount of time after max-level to be honest. I guess the way I look at it is that I know Pantheon is going to be my future MMO for many years. I'm not going to miss out on anything because I'll be able to re-roll through progeny as many times as necessary to experience all that the game has to offer. What I don't want to miss out on is being the first to explore a new area, discover various pieces of high-end spells or raid loot, and so on and so forth. You only get one chance to do these things in an MMO and it's at the beginning. This is just my personal preference ... and I do agree with you whole-heartedly in saying that we don't get a new game like this very often ... and it's only at the beginning of a game when you can explore/conquer a world that isn't flooded with guides on what to do, where to go, how to build, etc. I want my character to be a pioneer at the forefront of the playable history of Terminus. =D
Zorkon said:I just think VR should space all levels based on whatever formula they choose and NOT make level one a easy two hour level to lure people in and give them a false impression of what the rest of the game will be.
Bait and Switch = a bad practice for them to get into. Imho
I'm finding myself hard pressed to think of anyone who would get a false impression of what the game will be or feel bait & switched by having a handful of early levels be relatively quick. At least not anyone who has ever played a game before. Every MMO I've ever played works the same way, most RPGs in general work the same way, DnD works the same way, and heck, even Call of Duty.
I don't see having the first 5 levels be a fairly quick affair to be harmful or misleading in any way.
Liav said:sunstalkr said:Level 1 to level 2 should take as long as it takes. What I mean is that some ppl will let others kill everything while others will explore. Some may go up to every single npc and see about quests so when they start the killing they might have picked up quests that give money or small items. As Zorkon said, playstyle will determine how long it takes ppl to level. At the same time like Liav said you will have some ppl that just kill everything in sight IF possible meaning ppl may be fighting over every skeleton or wasp that flies by. Either way your playstyle will determine how fast you level. Zorkon is a casual leveler while Liav is a powerleveler. Neither is wrong and neither is right. Everybody plays at their own pace for various reasons which are all valid.
This doesn't really answer the question, though.
If a mob is worth 5 xp and you need 100 xp to advanced from level 1 to 2, and it takes 45 seconds to kill a mob with 15 seconds in between fights, then it would take 20 minutes. If there isn't as much competition for mobs, it might take 17 minutes.
This is why it's important to determine your target for balance. If you aim at the slowest players, the fastest players will be 50 in a few days.
The devs have access to the numbers, so it shouldn't be hard for them to calculate how much time it would take if you were maximally efficient. No one is maximally efficient though, so they'd probably aim a little lower than that and call it a day if I had to guess.
In general I agree with you. I would much rather have it harder than easier so the game takes longer to get to max lvl at least for myself. One problem like many others on this board have mentioned is that in general powerlvlers demand all of the attention of the developers because they make max lvl then have nothing else to do except wait for more ppl to lvl so they can actually run the max lvl raids etc. I always felt that the casual game is who kept the game going, meaning they were still there plugging along lvling while the powergamer had already moved on to another game so were no longer supporting the game. I have seen it ALOT over the years so I know its true. Not saying its true for you but even you said at some poing that if you got to max and got "bored" you would go to another game until an update/expansion came out. Either way I agree with your take on the lvling and how long it should take meaning make it harder, I am all for the old hell lvls that EQ had, so it takes ppl longer to get to max.
sunstalkr said:In general I agree with you. I would much rather have it harder than easier so the game takes longer to get to max lvl at least for myself. One problem like many others on this board have mentioned is that in general powerlvlers demand all of the attention of the developers because they make max lvl then have nothing else to do except wait for more ppl to lvl so they can actually run the max lvl raids etc. I always felt that the casual game is who kept the game going, meaning they were still there plugging along lvling while the powergamer had already moved on to another game so were no longer supporting the game. I have seen it ALOT over the years so I know its true. Not saying its true for you but even you said at some poing that if you got to max and got "bored" you would go to another game until an update/expansion came out. Either way I agree with your take on the lvling and how long it should take meaning make it harder, I am all for the old hell lvls that EQ had, so it takes ppl longer to get to max.
I guess my point is that even in EQ it doesn't really take that long to level, but it takes far longer than other titles.
Even if it took twice or three times as long as EQ to hit 50, it wouldn't be that long for certain demographics. If I can get 2-3 solid years of continuous play before boredom sets in, that would be the golden standard to me. That's about how long it took me with Vanguard before I started taking intermittent breaks to play other games in between content.
Developers can't possibly create enough content to keep endgame fresh indefinitely. We will have to repeat content for months on end, and I'm fine with that. I intend to complete all of the content in the game, from 1 to 50, before I would consider putting Pantheon down for a little bit.
I think you're incorrect in saying that power levelers "demand" attention, though. People also keep saying the word "power leveling" but then conflating it with "power gamer". Power leveling is a very specific term. I've never heard a power leveler "demand" something from a dev, but I have heard "power gamers" complain to devs about broken raids or things along those lines and that is completely warranted.
I would fall into the "power gamer" demographic and I demand nothing of the Pantheon devs. I share 95% of the vision with the devs, and the other 5% I am vocally opposed to, but I wouldn't say I "demand" their attention.
Liav said:sunstalkr said:In general I agree with you. I would much rather have it harder than easier so the game takes longer to get to max lvl at least for myself. One problem like many others on this board have mentioned is that in general powerlvlers demand all of the attention of the developers because they make max lvl then have nothing else to do except wait for more ppl to lvl so they can actually run the max lvl raids etc. I always felt that the casual game is who kept the game going, meaning they were still there plugging along lvling while the powergamer had already moved on to another game so were no longer supporting the game. I have seen it ALOT over the years so I know its true. Not saying its true for you but even you said at some poing that if you got to max and got "bored" you would go to another game until an update/expansion came out. Either way I agree with your take on the lvling and how long it should take meaning make it harder, I am all for the old hell lvls that EQ had, so it takes ppl longer to get to max.
I guess my point is that even in EQ it doesn't really take that long to level, but it takes far longer than other titles.
Even if it took twice or three times as long as EQ to hit 50, it wouldn't be that long for certain demographics. If I can get 2-3 solid years of continuous play before boredom sets in, that would be the golden standard to me. That's about how long it took me with Vanguard before I started taking intermittent breaks to play other games in between content.
Developers can't possibly create enough content to keep endgame fresh indefinitely. We will have to repeat content for months on end, and I'm fine with that. I intend to complete all of the content in the game, from 1 to 50, before I would consider putting Pantheon down for a little bit.
I think you're incorrect in saying that power levelers "demand" attention, though. People also keep saying the word "power leveling" but then conflating it with "power gamer". Power leveling is a very specific term. I've never heard a power leveler "demand" something from a dev, but I have heard "power gamers" complain to devs about broken raids or things along those lines and that is completely warranted.
I would fall into the "power gamer" demographic and I demand nothing of the Pantheon devs. I share 95% of the vision with the devs, and the other 5% I am vocally opposed to, but I wouldn't say I "demand" their attention.
I agree on most of your post. As to saying powerlvlers/gamers "demand" the attention of the devs its how it works in every game I have played. Its the old squeaky wheel syndrome. While I am plugging along you and some others are max. The group that is max finally can run some of the top tier zones and after 6 months, a year, get tired of playing. I remember EQ didnt have an expac for approx 2 years if I remember right. The powerlvler/gamers dont have to "demand", they just put many posts complaining about lack of content. THAT is how ppl get the attention or in effect "demand" the devs work for them while ignoring many many other issues lower lvl in the game. I know in virtually every game I have played, years later those same bugs from lower lvl were still in the game, while they were putting out expacs for the top tier players/guilds. I know the argument about the top tier pushing the envelope for the rest of us but plenty of ppl cant and wont EVER run any of that top tier content due to time contraints etc. I have always felt games need to have scalable dungeons so if you go in with a group you would be able to get to the end boss but wouldnt get the top tier loot but at least you could SEE the content that you have been paying for. As it is there are so many games out there and unless you are in a top end guild the casual player will NEVER see the inside of the raid zone let alone ever be a part of actually killing the boss. Sorry for segwaying from the subject as that is for another thread but I think you can see what I am saying.
Btw I have found that powerlvls and powergamers "in general" are one and the same so to say they conflate the terms is inaccurate at least in my opinion. I know you can say the words mean dif things but in practice I have found them to be the same. I know you obviously dont agree based on your last post. So we can agree to disagree like on so many other threads.
sunstalkr said:I agree on most of your post. As to saying powerlvlers/gamers "demand" the attention of the devs its how it works in every game I have played. Its the old squeaky wheel syndrome. While I am plugging along you and some others are max. The group that is max finally can run some of the top tier zones and after 6 months, a year, get tired of playing. I remember EQ didnt have an expac for approx 2 years if I remember right. The powerlvler/gamers dont have to "demand", they just put many posts complaining about lack of content. THAT is how ppl get the attention or in effect "demand" the devs work for them while ignoring many many other issues lower lvl in the game. I know in virtually every game I have played, years later those same bugs from lower lvl were still in the game, while they were putting out expacs for the top tier players/guilds. I know the argument about the top tier pushing the envelope for the rest of us but plenty of ppl cant and wont EVER run any of that top tier content due to time contraints etc. I have always felt games need to have scalable dungeons so if you go in with a group you would be able to get to the end boss but wouldnt get the top tier loot but at least you could SEE the content that you have been paying for. As it is there are so many games out there and unless you are in a top end guild the casual player will NEVER see the inside of the raid zone let alone ever be a part of actually killing the boss. Sorry for segwaying from the subject as that is for another thread but I think you can see what I am saying.
Btw I have found that powerlvls and powergamers "in general" are one and the same so to say they conflate the terms is inaccurate at least in my opinion. I know you can say the words mean dif things but in practice I have found them to be the same. I know you obviously dont agree based on your last post. So we can agree to disagree like on so many other threads.
I see what you're saying, I just disagree with almost all of it.
EQ's first expansion launched about a year after release. Velious launched 8 months later, Luclin launched a year after that. PoP was 10 months after Luclin. That's pretty normal, although modern developers tend to do more frequent, smaller content packs these days than entire expansions.
Power leveling generally refers to an external (maybe higher level) influence accelerating the normal average XP rate that a character without assistance would receive.
A power gamer is just someone with a lot of playtime, I guess? This term is loosely defined.
Either way, agree to disagree I guess.
There is no singular 'right' way to play an MMO (though there are more 'time efficient' routes to take, dependent on your intended outcome).
Pantheon will have lots of horizontal progression available -
much of it optional (E.g. crafting, exploring, odd-ball spells/gear etc) and
some of it essential to a greater or lesser degree (E.g. Factions, Acclimation, gear etc).
- but ultimately, some will focus purely on vertical progression
(sometimes denoted as 'powergamers', but is very different from 'power-levellers' which implies external agency).
Since EQ predates the WoW model, it didn't offer the now ubiquitous 'quest exp' with which to ding through levels 1-8 in a matter of (literally) a few minutes. Those of you who have played EQ99 or the new TLP server in EQ will recall that it took approximately
14 near-even level mobs to level from 1-2, 23 to go from 2-3 and 28 to go from 3-4.
This then took, perhaps,
15 mins to get to level 2, another
30-45 mins to get to level 3, and another
30 mins to get to level 4.
For a total time of perhaps 1-2 hours killing mobs to get from level 1 to level 4.
If we add in time taken to initially explore your surrounding, find your class trainer, find the bank and stand about going 'ooooh!', this will be substantially longer.
TBH: The only critical criterion is to allow enough time between levels for any given player to assimilate new spells and abilities by using/testing them enough times to be confident about how best to use them. For the initial levels, however, we need add 'enough time to get to grips with the basics of the game'. Anything less and you risk the chance of having players destined to fail.
Evoras, thinks 2-4 hours to get to level 3-4 not-unreasonable
A far more important question than how long a level should take is ;how can levels be accommodated to fit Pantheon's design.
Emphasizing horizontal progressions,the ability to diversify characters from the rest is required.giving the players the ability to seek ways to make themselves different from other players
That is a requirement to give a sense of progression in a horizontal game.
The problem in all the MMOs we've seen is that the way levels are designed ,it emphasizes the vertical progression at the expense of horizontal progression.
When that happens,the game turns into a boring chase to the next levels ,and eventually the next big game as it leaves the game with zero depth
"Watch the population evolve around you as different NPCs and beasts may change depending on your past actions"
"An agreement that player levels should be both meaningful and memorable"
"Envision challenging content, meaningful character progression"
and what they have said in the camping section:
"while Terminus is more of an open ‘sandbox’ world and not about moving linearly from one quest hub to another, establishing footholds in the depths of dungeons will not be the only way to advance your character."
We can't have meaningful character progression where content remains king if levels will just be adopted and won't be accomodated to Pantheon.
Most people talking about levels here probably are talking about the kind of levels you see in these linear quest hub games
It is so obvious that levels in that format break immersion and won't allow the adventure to happen.
And just look at this topic.We're not even talking about how we look forward to the adventures but how long a level should last for crying out loud.To me that is like asking when you've reached the right age to start smoking;Never.
"
In addition to traditional fantasy races and classes, the world of Terminus has been formed from the ‘shipwrecked’ fragments of many different realms and worlds,
bringing their unique civilizations and Celestial deities with them. It is into the current age of this wonderful and mysterious world that players will step foot for the first time.
Realms long lost will be explored anew. Peoples and cultures striving to gain a foothold in this unfamiliar world will form alliances and vie for power.
Uncovered civilizations and awe-inspiring locales will offer new and incredible adventures for you and your friends to experience. Enter a world where the environment itself tells the story and where content is always king.
"
Maybe with the shipwrecked fragments of different realms and worlds,bringing unique civilizations and deities with them.It would make sense to go for chapters instead of levels.
So they are build and designed to accommodate and sync with the existing narrative of the environment.
The realm/world fragments that appear post-release would then just be different chapters.
The advantage with chapters is that ,unlike levels,it keeps the focus on the content of the game ,and the current events happening in it.And chapters allow for each area to gain a new chapter,which adds to the replayability of areas,making them worth a revisit .With each chapter new zone events could be introduced
Liav said:...
Now you've changed your argument to saying that you want the numbers hidden so that VR can tweak numbers on the fly to penalize people who level efficiently. I think that's a terrible idea. Under no circumstances do I find it acceptable to impede efficient players to satisfy casuals.
What has this issue to do with "efficiency" ? What does it even mean being "efficient" in an MMORPG ? To introduce an "efficiency" a metrics is necessary but in an MMORPG there as many possible metrics as there are players and many are mutually contradictory . In one metric a casual will be more efficient than a hardcore raider and in another it will be the opposite .
If anything, this issue is related to the retention rate which is the single most important parameter for the business model of a subscription based game . And here experience of past MMORPG shows that if the game is using levels (not all are) then focusing on adventuring content (horizontal progression) rather than on levels (vertical progression) yields higher retention rates . It also allows the developpers to have much more time to develop expansions, to valorize the existing content/zones and to avoid raising level caps too frequently . This is also supported by the statistics which show that the hardcore raider/powerleveller population which is exclusively focused on the "endgame" and on the speed with which this "endgame" is reached is a small minority of around 10-15 % .
It makes then sense for the developpers to make the time between levels rather long in order to enable to the majority of players to benefit from the horizontal content . For the first level I would say that a minimum of 1 hour is a sufficient time for the player to feel the gameplay and to decide whether he likes the game or not . For higher levels this minimum time should increase and include a random element . For instance the XP reward for an action (quest, kill, discovery etc) could be normally distributed, for example for an action X the reward is a gaussian with average 20 points and standard deviation 10 . Of course both the average and the standard deviation can be changed by the developpers what allows to modify the rewards in a zone or overall in the world easily and quickly .
Deadshade said:What has this issue to do with "efficiency" ? What does it even mean being "efficient" in an MMORPG ? To introduce an "efficiency" a metrics is necessary but in an MMORPG there as many possible metrics as there are players and many are mutually contradictory . In one metric a casual will be more efficient than a hardcore raider and in another it will be the opposite .
If anything, this issue is related to the retention rate which is the single most important parameter for the business model of a subscription based game . And here experience of past MMORPG shows that if the game is using levels (not all are) then focusing on adventuring content (horizontal progression) rather than on levels (vertical progression) yields higher retention rates . It also allows the developpers to have much more time to develop expansions, to valorize the existing content/zones and to avoid raising level caps too frequently . This is also supported by the statistics which show that the hardcore raider/powerleveller population which is exclusively focused on the "endgame" and on the speed with which this "endgame" is reached is a small minority of around 10-15 % .
It makes then sense for the developpers to make the time between levels rather long in order to enable to the majority of players to benefit from the horizontal content . For the first level I would say that a minimum of 1 hour is a sufficient time for the player to feel the gameplay and to decide whether he likes the game or not . For higher levels this minimum time should increase and include a random element . For instance the XP reward for an action (quest, kill, discovery etc) could be normally distributed, for example for an action X the reward is a gaussian with average 20 points and standard deviation 10 . Of course both the average and the standard deviation can be changed by the developpers what allows to modify the rewards in a zone or overall in the world easily and quickly .
If you have a specific goal in a game, there is an optimal path to do so. If you want to level as fast as possible, finding areas with higher mob density, faster respawns, and/or higher experience rates will have you achieving this goal more efficiently.
You're implying that I'm implying that efficiency is equally applicable to all aspects of a game. I never said that, however. If someone doesn't really care about things like that and just wishes to do whatever they want to do on a whim, they can do that.
Efficiency in the context I'm using it is (to me) self-evidently referring to a goals oriented perspective on the game. If you want to acquire acclimation equipment, for instance, there will be an optimal way to do so that is less time consumptive, money consumptive, etc. than other methods.
I don't necessarily disagree with your second paragraph. The third, however - particularly the last few sentences - I'm not really on the same page with. Is there some way you can justify the usage of a random, standard deviation reward system over a static value reward system? Why is it justified for the developers to adjust reward values on a whim?
I believe you also ignored the context of my post. If a number-based reward system is assumed to be included in a game, I believe the burden is on someone to justify a reason why those who progress efficiently should have their rates reduced. Is it a solution to a problem? I don't believe so. It seems like a petty attempt to shrink the divide between efficient and inefficient players, as in those who are unable or unwilling to level efficiently feel entitled to a higher relative rate of progression.
All I have to say, is that this thread is full of masochist. If it takes longer than 30 minutes to an hour to get past level one, then the game is broken. And someone mentioned they want to spend weeks doing the same dungeons, that is insanely boring to do the same crap over and over, reguardless of how fun it is the first few times. And I can pretty much guarantee all you wannabe bada**es will be one of the first complaing when it takes so long to level when the game actually comes out.
It needs to be a smooth leveling process, but not a second job. It's a game, I'm not getting paid to level these characters (though I did make some money doing that in EQ back in the day). I beleive max level should be achieveable in the first 3 months with plenty of end game content to keep us occupied.
Well I guess they will adopt a logaritmic scale and tweek the radiant to nail it xp wize as in abit faster in the start...We need to find quest(and solve it),train skills,craft and explore and maybe invest time in factions so there will prob be alot of xp tweekin in alpha-beta to get the phase right.No point to give us quest's in starting area and after less then halv we move on cus we out level the zone and move on, so the balance is very tricky and a later problem as they need to solve alot of other stuff before they can begin. Im looking forward to help with this kind of testing to get it right just need to test in a area wich i wont place my main in released game so i dont get to much spoiled :)
Liav said:.....
If you have a specific goal in a game, there is an optimal path to do so. If you want to level as fast as possible, finding areas with higher mob density, faster respawns, and/or higher experience rates will have you achieving this goal more efficiently.
......
Here you go again with your "optimal path." You then say that to level as fast as possible, finding areas with higher mob density, faster respawns, and/or higher experience rates will have you achieving this goal more efficiently. I can come up with dozens of scenario's where this will not be the case at all.
You have claimed there is only one optimal path. Let's say you've found your optimal path and you gain a level from say 45 to 46 in 1 hour and no one else has ever done it faster. Is this then "The" optimal path? If someone else an hour later does it in 59 minutes and 59 seconds, is the method they employed then the new optimal path? There is no optimal path, just as there is no most efficient path. There are too many variables, game related, human related, other event related that prevent you from defining any such thing. What may work for you one day, may not work for you another.
edit: I can guarantee that you for every "optimal/efficient" path you can come up with in say EQ, there's someone who can tell you that their way is more "optimal/efficient"
I remember playing Eq1 and starting in Qeynos. killing rats out front, and then it going dark, not being able to see a darn thing ( i was a human ) runing into skellys killing some of those, runing into fire beetles, killing those and getting an eye and using that as i light...Still couldnt see much though hehe...then running into some named mob and getting killed...Running back ( after getting lost ) and continuing
after hitting i think level 2 or 3 out the front of qeynos we desided to explore a bit more, in the Dark! yes i know not our smartest move LOL. Several deaths later we found Black burrow, we stayed out front until i think about level 5 and then went inside only to be confronted with "TRAIN TO ZONE" yes Another death :) after multipul deaths from trains and us thinking we were tougher than we were we for some reason desided we at the Grand old level of 7 would take on this big adventure and go to this place we heard about called Freeport. We set out, Confronted by HUGE spiders, Lions chasing us, and cyclops trying to smash us we some how made it to high hold keep. after that we made our way down through kithicor forrest and then to the commonlands after running like hell from that Stupid Inky ( Dragoon Zytl ) and praying and pleading to make the zoneline (because we didnt bind anywhere close, we thought you could only bind in citys, Stupid noobs lol ) we FINALLY made it to freeport and to safety. we hit level 8 just as we killed a few mobs right before we got to freeport.
That whole adventure from level 1-8 took us over 48 hours.( yes we played none stop for 48 hours )
My point is, the time it takes some people to get from level 1 to 10 will Greatly differ from someone else depending on what they are doing. if your a power player and just stay in one place and grind mobs until they no longer give xp and then move on, Or if like my buddy and i you Explore, die, get lost, explore some more. try different areas and then go on a big adventure your leveling pace will be Very different. Tuning the leveling speed will take the team a while to get a good balance after getting lots of data and the tuning and retuning etc..
I believe they have stated many times that Pantheon isnt going to be an Easy mode fast leveling game like Some that will not be mentioned but we know who they are :)
I guess we will just have to wait and See.
PS: After getting to freeport the next play session we grouped up with others in north ro, then south ro, then oasis after that ( and getting killed by lockjaw ) i remember going into the zone each day and shoulting /shout Camp check. Brings back some fond memorys
Liav said:If a number-based reward system is assumed to be included in a game, I believe the burden is on someone to justify a reason why those who progress efficiently should have their rates reduced. Is it a solution to a problem? I don't believe so. It seems like a petty attempt to shrink the divide between efficient and inefficient players, as in those who are unable or unwilling to level efficiently feel entitled to a higher relative rate of progression.
EQ2 actually did that. Last time I played they had a mechanic in the game that overnight you would get rid of exp debt and gain exp bonus least I think it was that way heh. So for players not quite as uber they could die and incur debt then have it be erased overnight. That in effect is doing what you are against. I also believe there was a bonus up to a point that could go several levels if you hadnt played for a while, then once you got past that point there was no bonus exp. So in effect casuals got more of a bump due to those 2 mechanics than a powergamer/lvler would get since the casual only plays a few hours at most night, possibly even a few a week, while the powergamer/lvler plays a weeks worth of work or 40 hours or more so do not see that much of a bump. Sure it was only a small percentage but it did help the casual gamer a bit. Personally I never liked or disliked it as it didnt determine how long I played. I just played until I logged. I never said, "ok I'm out of bonus so now I need to log". I believe there were even potions you could take that would extent that bonus time.
Tiberius said:I remember playing Eq1 and starting in Qeynos. killing rats out front, and then it going dark, not being able to see a darn thing ( i was a human ) runing into skellys killing some of those, runing into fire beetles, killing those and getting an eye and using that as i light...Still couldnt see much though hehe...then running into some named mob and getting killed...Running back ( after getting lost ) and continuing
after hitting i think level 2 or 3 out the front of qeynos we desided to explore a bit more, in the Dark! yes i know not our smartest move LOL. Several deaths later we found Black burrow, we stayed out front until i think about level 5 and then went inside only to be confronted with "TRAIN TO ZONE" yes Another death :) after multipul deaths from trains and us thinking we were tougher than we were we for some reason desided we at the Grand old level of 7 would take on this big adventure and go to this place we heard about called Freeport. We set out, Confronted by HUGE spiders, Lions chasing us, and cyclops trying to smash us we some how made it to high hold keep. after that we made our way down through kithicor forrest and then to the commonlands after running like hell from that Stupid Inky ( Dragoon Zytl ) and praying and pleading to make the zoneline (because we didnt bind anywhere close, we thought you could only bind in citys, Stupid noobs lol ) we FINALLY made it to freeport and to safety. we hit level 8 just as we killed a few mobs right before we got to freeport.
That whole adventure from level 1-8 took us over 48 hours.( yes we played none stop for 48 hours )
My point is, the time it takes some people to get from level 1 to 10 will Greatly differ from someone else depending on what they are doing. if your a power player and just stay in one place and grind mobs until they no longer give xp and then move on, Or if like my buddy and i you Explore, die, get lost, explore some more. try different areas and then go on a big adventure your leveling pace will be Very different. Tuning the leveling speed will take the team a while to get a good balance after getting lots of data and the tuning and retuning etc..
I believe they have stated many times that Pantheon isnt going to be an Easy mode fast leveling game like Some that will not be mentioned but we know who they are :)
I guess we will just have to wait and See.
PS: After getting to freeport the next play session we grouped up with others in north ro, then south ro, then oasis after that ( and getting killed by lockjaw ) i remember going into the zone each day and shoulting /shout Camp check. Brings back some fond memorys
I remember doing the opposite. We ran from Freeport to Queynos but we went by way of the gorge. We got chased by evil eyes once past the gorge as we just followed the path and ended up face to face with an evil eye and we ran in opposite directions. Then I ran into a giant and somehow didnt get killed and finally got to water. I followed the water until I found a bridge with ppl on it and they said it went to south karana so I ran by until I got to another bridge I believe that took us to Queynos. I remember doing an emote of dropping to my knees and kissing the ground AFTER I had bound there lol. One other thing to remember was that back then there wasnt any in game chat and really nothing else cept to call your friend if you were playing together. I had another friend who was also human running thru karana and he couldnt figure out why it was dark when it was light for the rest of us. I ran back to find him and he had been stuck running into a dead tree for the night and never knew it lol. Anyways this should have been on the nostalgia thread. *shrug* Good memories lol.
As to this thread I would easily accept EQ and its lvling curve including hell levels. I believe that was hard enuf BUT remember, EQ had level loss so you could lose some spells if you died right after you had leveled. Level loss completely changes a persons playstyle IF you know you cant just die over and over once you make a level. Like on another thread once you make max you have ZERO to fear just zerging over and over. THAT is also what made EQ so hard.
Durp said:Here you go again with your "optimal path." You then say that to level as fast as possible, finding areas with higher mob density, faster respawns, and/or higher experience rates will have you achieving this goal more efficiently. I can come up with dozens of scenario's where this will not be the case at all.
You have claimed there is only one optimal path. Let's say you've found your optimal path and you gain a level from say 45 to 46 in 1 hour and no one else has ever done it faster. Is this then "The" optimal path? If someone else an hour later does it in 59 minutes and 59 seconds, is the method they employed then the new optimal path? There is no optimal path, just as there is no most efficient path. There are too many variables, game related, human related, other event related that prevent you from defining any such thing. What may work for you one day, may not work for you another.
edit: I can guarantee that you for every "optimal/efficient" path you can come up with in say EQ, there's someone who can tell you that their way is more "optimal/efficient"
Somehow you're interpreting my post as "there is only one way to do a thing".
Optimization sometimes involves working around issues. If the most optimal content (in a vacuum) is unavailable because it's overcamped, then going somewhere else becomes optimal.
If you're arguing that the words "efficiency" and "optimal" are just invalid terms, then we're clearly not speaking the same language so I don't see a need to further this conversation.
sunstalkr said:EQ2 actually did that. Last time I played they had a mechanic in the game that overnight you would get rid of exp debt and gain exp bonus least I think it was that way heh. So for players not quite as uber they could die and incur debt then have it be erased overnight. That in effect is doing what you are against. I also believe there was a bonus up to a point that could go several levels if you hadnt played for a while, then once you got past that point there was no bonus exp. So in effect casuals got more of a bump due to those 2 mechanics than a powergamer/lvler would get since the casual only plays a few hours at most night, possibly even a few a week, while the powergamer/lvler plays a weeks worth of work or 40 hours or more so do not see that much of a bump. Sure it was only a small percentage but it did help the casual gamer a bit. Personally I never liked or disliked it as it didnt determine how long I played. I just played until I logged. I never said, "ok I'm out of bonus so now I need to log". I believe there were even potions you could take that would extent that bonus time.
I don't agree with the inclusion of vitality systems either, which is what you're describing as was included in EQ2. It wasn't enough of a bonus to bridge the cap between low and high playtime players, though.
A friendly reminder to keep it on topic and draw attention to the fact that the title of this thread is a question that will have varying answers depending on the person replying. There is no right or wrong answer, just different opinions and preferences depending on your playstyle, so please keep that in mind when replying. :)
Kilsin said:A friendly reminder to keep it on topic and draw attention to the fact that the title of this thread is a question that will have varying answers depending on the person replying. There is no right or wrong answer, just different opinions and preferences depending on your playstyle, so please keep that in mind when replying. :)
Obviously you are correct so you also realize that in order to answer the question the answer is usually not a straight forward answer. To explain what ppl mean they have to expound upon the question which usually leads to other topics BUT all are related like playstyle. You know and I know that very few things in a MMO are straight forward when it comes to questions and answers.